Some mainstream artists such as Liza Minnelli, Kylie Minogue, ABBA, Village People.etc have seem to be associated with gay culture. Apart from the ones which are actually gay (like Elton John, Peter Allen, George Michael, Boy George, Pet Shop Boys, Melissa Ethridge, k.d. Lang), what do you think (especially if you are gay/familiar with the sub-culture) makes this the case? I ask because I have a friend who really likes Kylie Minogue, and has a friend who is a lesbian, and always jokes in that annoying way (the pretending to be gay) way, and it got me wondering what it was about the music of groups such as Kylie which was so embraced/seen to be embraced by the gay community. Is it more an infatuation with Kylie or even Madonna as a persona more so than the music?

I know it can be a sensitive issue, and I don't want to perpetuate any stereotypes.etc, it's just out of curiosity.

Well, as a gay person, I'll try to answer this...I think their themes relate to our sensibilities. We tend to be drawn to dramatic, glamorous, melodramatic women who preach themes of feminine power and dominance, and have had difficult lives. Examples of gay icons-

-Kylie Minogue.
-Madonna (my personal fave...)
-Tori Amos.
-Kate Bush.
-ABBA.
-Any disco, really...particularly Donna Summer.

Well, as a gay person, I'll try to answer this...I think their themes relate to our sensibilities. We tend to be drawn to dramatic, glamorous, melodramatic women who preach themes of feminine power and dominance, and have had difficult lives. Examples of gay icons-

-Kylie Minogue.
-Madonna (my personal fave...)
-Tori Amos.
-Kate Bush.
-ABBA.
-Any disco, really...particularly Donna Summer.



Isn't it sort of ironic (well, not really I suppose) that the audiences of many gay performers such as k.d. lang or boy george are pretty similar to mainstream artists in general? Saying you're a fan of k.d. lang doesn't have the...almost the stigma of saying you're a fan of Kylie (if you're a male)...which I think is rubbish. It's as if you admire Kylie for anything other than her sex appeal (like her image) you're not masculine. I think it's more that these artists don't really aim their music for that community (as opposed to 'queer-core'etc). Whereas none of the artists you mention are actually gay themselves (well, duh).

Well, as a gay person, I'll try to answer this...I think their themes relate to our sensibilities. We tend to be drawn to dramatic, glamorous, melodramatic women who preach themes of feminine power and dominance, and have had difficult lives. Examples of gay icons-

-Kylie Minogue.
-Madonna (my personal fave...)
-Tori Amos.
-Kate Bush.
-ABBA.
-Any disco, really...particularly Donna Summer.



Is there much of a connection between feminism/gender-equality and the gay sub-culture/politics?

Is there much of a connection between feminism/gender-equality and the gay sub-culture/politics?


Yes, I suppose so. Other gay icons include Cyndi Lauper.

Well, I think I gravitate toward female singer/songwriters in part because I have felt excluded from traditional masculinity. Because most gay men are already outside what is considered "masculine" -- they are in fact often seen as having failed as men for various moral or psychological reasons -- they often have more freedom in exploring gender boundaries and in getting into things that more "macho" guys would shun as effeminate. There's also just the simple fact that women typically sing about men, and it's easier for many gay men to identify with that than with love songs by men about women.

I also think that the weirdness and surrealism of much of the music I like appeals to my own sense of alterity (which involves more than just my homosexuality). The connection is difficult to explain without using somewhat imprecise jargon, but basically I love musicians who create an interior "space" with their music and lyrics that allows for free movement of thought and emotion; furthermore, their strangeness, ambiguity, and sense of the macabre might actually reflect my own sense of "queerness."

There are a lot more specific cases where music intersects with my sexuality both directly and indirectly -- for example, Kate Bush has a song about a gay relationship while Tori Amos explores tensions between sexuality and traditional Christianity -- but that's entering into territory perhaps too particular to myself.

However, there are loads of reasons why I like Kate Bush (and used to like Tori Amos) that are not connected to my sexuality at all. For instance, I tend to listen to introverted music (like Tori Amos) presumably because I have an introverted personality, not because I'm gay; by contrast, I don't enjoy most mainstream pop music like Kylie Minogue or Cher because I don't feel like they tap into anything beneath the surface. Similarly, I like Kate Bush's sense of humour and fun because I like those qualities, not because I'm gay. I strongly disagree with the assumption that everything about me -- including all my interests, musical or otherwise -- can be reduced to my sexual orientation; on the other hand, it's also naive to pretend that there is never a relationship, because my sexual orientation has effected my experiences in life and is a component of my identity. But there isn't always a connection; I would never go so far as to say, for example, that sexual orientation (or gender, sex, race, class, or any other such category for that matter) actually determines musical tastes.

By the way, nice picture of Arthur Rimbaud -- he was also gay, of course. ;)

Well, I think I gravitate toward female singer/songwriters in part because I have felt excluded from traditional masculinity. Because most gay men are already outside what is considered "masculine" -- they are in fact often seen as having failed as men for various moral or psychological reasons -- they often have more freedom in exploring gender boundaries and in getting into things that more "macho" guys would shun as effeminate. There's also just the simple fact that women typically sing about men, and it's easier for many gay men to identify with that than with love songs by men about women.

I also think that the weirdness and surrealism of much of the music I like -- Tori Amos and Kate Bush in particular -- appeals to my own sense of alterity (which involves more than just my homosexuality). I was never conscious of this connection when I first got into Tori or Kate, but upon reflection I think the connection is probably there. It's difficult to explain without using imprecise jargon, but basically these two musicians create an interior "space" with their music and lyrics that allows for free movement of thought and emotion; furthermore, their strangeness, ambiguity, and sense of the macabre actually reflects my own sense of "queerness." There are a lot more specific cases where music intersects with my sexuality both directly and indirectly -- for example, Kate has a song about a gay relationship while Tori explores tensions between sexuality and traditional Christianity -- but that's entering into territory perhaps too particular to myself.

There are loads of reasons why I like Kate Bush (and used to like Tori Amos) that I don't think are connected to my sexuality at all though. For instance, I tend to listen to introverted music (like Tori Amos) because I'm an introvert, not because I'm gay; by contrast, I don't enjoy most mainstream pop music like Kylie Minogue or Cher because I don't feel like they tap into anything beneath the surface. Similarly, I like Kate Bush's sense of humour and fun because I like those qualities, not because I'm gay. I disagree with the assumption that everything about me -- including all my interests, musical or otherwise -- can be reduced to my sexual orientation; on the other hand, it's naive to pretend that there is never a relationship, because my sexual orientation has effected my experiences in life and is a component of my identity. Different components of one's identity can -- but don't have to -- relate to one another, and I suppose that the way that they do or don't is a complex process for everyone. :)

By the way, nice picture of Arthur Rimbaud -- he was also gay, of course. ;)


I agree with this...I myself don't like Cher, Kylie Minogue, etc., even though I'm gay. My reasons for liking Liz Phair, Kate Bush, Madonna, Tori Amos, etc. have alot to do with my more "dramatic" and introspective sensibilities than anything else, though I suppose the way they are has something to do with my "queerness", though I don't like that word very much.

Don't forget The Weather Girls a.k.a. "Two Tons of Fun"  8)

It's raining men *smack* Hallelujah
It's raining men, amen!

Melissa Etheridge
Marilyn, Dead or Alive, Doctor and the Medics, Culture Club and most of those cross-dressing singers of the 80's
Gloria Gaynor
Frankie Goes to Hollywood
Morrissey and the Smiths

With the exceitopn of Melissa Etheridge, I listen to all the artists above I mentioned, but that does not make me gay.  If you ask me, the gays have great taste in music

[quote author=wһіѕ

The Smiths are another VERY gay group that I adore...


I don't know about that...

I don't know about that...


Morrissey is probably gay.

Do you think Prince is gay, Cloudbuster?  ;)

Do you think Prince is gay, Cloudbuster?  ;)


Nope. Straight as an arrow.

Morrissey is probably gay.


To me it's all speculation...he shouldn't have to 'state' his sexuality as such, perhaps he doesn't/didn't think of it as that important to his public image.

I've never associated the Smiths with the gay community, let alone though of them as overtly gay, so I don't know where you get that assumption from. But it doesn't really matter to me either way.

I did a sort of tongue in cheek thread called 'Were they gay?' asking whether popular performer were bi-sexual/homosexual. Way back early last year sometime.

To me it's all speculation...he shouldn't have to 'state' his sexuality as such, perhaps he doesn't/didn't think of it as that important to his public image.

I've never associated the Smiths with the gay community, let alone though of them as overtly gay, so I don't know where you get that assumption from. But it doesn't really matter to me either way.




"Hand in Glove" and "William, It Was Really Nothing." I do respect his decision not to go around stating his sexuality, though...but there's at least alot of homoerotic themes in his songwriting.

I always associated ABBA, Judy Garland, Morrissey and Tori Amos.. they stick out a lot..

The Smiths never struck me as gay.. just feminine from time to time.

What about P.J. Harvey or Ani DiFranco? Would they be considered in the same field as Tori?

What about P.J. Harvey or Ani DiFranco? Would they be considered in the same field as Tori?




Ani has a huge lesbian following... but I don't know how large her gay male following is. Personally, I've always found her kind of annoying.

I like P.J. Harvey a lot, but I haven't been exposed enough to her fanbase to know whether or not she's got a gay following as large as Tori Amos's or Kate Bush's. The majority of male Tori or Kate fans that I've known are gay.

Ani has a huge lesbian following... but I don't know how large her gay male following is. Personally, I've always found her kind of annoying.

I like P.J. Harvey a lot, but I haven't been exposed enough to her fanbase to know whether or not she's got a gay following as large as Tori Amos's or Kate Bush's. The majority of male Tori or Kate fans that I've known are gay.


Yeah, I myself don't like Ani DiFranco alot, and I'm not a big Michelle Shocked fan either. I think Suzanne Vega and Tracy Chapman would have larger lesbian and straight female followings, and Aimee Mann (who I like alot, actually), probably has a mixed audience as well, though I would think most male fans would be gay. Laura Nyro and Joni Mitchell, two of my favorite older singer-songwriters, definitely have a gay following, but it's not as huge as Tori or Kate, certainly, and I think there are a fair number of straight men who are fans of those two.

PJ Harvey has a fairly large straight male and lesbian following, but she probably has a decent-sized gay male following too.

Nope. Straight as an arrow.


Okay  ;D

Wow.. I just found out I like Morrissey..

I wonder what that means..

:o

:o

:o

I like Moby...would that make people wonder about my sexual preferences?

Some mainstream artists such as Liza Minnelli, Kylie Minogue, ABBA, Village People.etc have seem to be associated with gay culture. Apart from the ones which are actually gay (like Elton John, Peter Allen, George Michael, Boy George, Pet Shop Boys, Melissa Ethridge, k.d. Lang), what do you think (especially if you are gay/familiar with the sub-culture) makes this the case?


A lot of this grows out of the disco era - many performers were gay, but mainstream radio didn't quite "get it".  (the Village People come immediately to mind.  I remember having to explain to a young couple's parents that "YMCA" and "Macho Man" were *not* about physical fitness... and that while I could get away with YMCA, I really shouldn't be playing "Macho Man" at their son's wedding reception. :)

I think the answer to this comes down to club play. Anyone in clubs in the 70s (before my time, frankly) probably knew what was going on -- hence the "disco sucks" campaign from the overly-heterosexual "rock and roll" types.

I'll grant that a lot of disco *did* suck.  But I think the above is a piece of the puzzle with respect to ABBA.  ABBA was probably the most discoish (and straight, and top-40-friendly) bands of the era -- and yet, there's no way I can play more than one or two ABBA tracks in a set without having people look *real* weird at me.  Bugs me (as a straight *and* as a once-upon-a-time DJ) because as disco/top-40 goes, ABBA was actually pretty well-executed.

Rant of the day:  I remember the first time I heard Bronski Beat's (a band that makes the Village People look straight by comparison) "Why?".  My jaw is on the floor after the first 30 seconds of a stunningly great synthesizer beat, lots of layers, lots of melody, and a *killer* bassline.  I'm thinking "100% guaranteed floorfiller".  Then the first verse featuring a male singer uttering the words "kiss his lips".  Crap.  Potentially one of the best hardcore techno/dance tracks (easily comparable to the best of 2 Unlimited) of the early 90s, but no DJ could freakin' *play* it anywhere other than a gay venue. (Yeah, I found out the hard way.  Why didn't you b*ahem*stards release this track as an instrumental first? :)

As another poster said -- Whether you're straight or not, the gays had pretty darn good taste in music.  I'm boringly straight, but if only my audiences had been a little more into the music and a little less into the lyrics.

[quote author=wһіѕ

I like Moby...would that make people wonder about my sexual preferences?


I didn't know Moby was associated with gay culture...

I didn't know Moby was associated with gay culture...


Apparently being vegetarian and campaigning for animal rights makes one slightly effete... ;)

Apparently being vegetarian and campaigning for animal rights makes one slightly effete... ;)


I just thought it made him a hippy.

I just thought it made him a hippy.


To the red-necks they're all just as bad. Hippies, homos - basically anyone who is not a gun-totin', steak-eating, hard-living red-blooded man.

To the red-necks they're all just as bad. Hippies, homos - basically anyone who is not a gun-totin', steak-eating, hard-living red-blooded man.


Mmmm... steak.