I would say "Yes, but they're nerds".  I do think people who listen to indie (I mean real indie, not that emo garbage) tend to be smart, but also very nerdy.

They like to think they are.  ::)

They like to think they are.  ::)


ditto

I would say "Yes, but they're nerds".  I do think people who listen to indie (I mean real indie, not that emo garbage) tend to be smart, but also very nerdy.



Nope

Nope


Well, it depends.  For instance, I think Quentin Tarantino is probably pretty smart, but generally I think hipsters are more smart-asses.  ;D

Well, it depends.  For instance, I think Quentin Tarantino is probably pretty smart, but generally I think hipsters are more smart-asses.  ;D



Yeah the hipsters give all indie people a bad name ;D

Most of the "indie" (i.e. Bright Eyes, The Shins, Arcade Fire) nuts I've known tend just to be extremely stuck-up, they aren't at all smarter. Maybe more culturally experienced, but I think it's just one of these stupid things that if you're culturally sophisticated (which is a dubious term, in the first place), you're like OBLIGATED to like, like it's a symbol that you're "highly intelligent and clever" to improve your self-esteem. Of course, the fourth out of the four people who listen to indie will be quite nice and smart, but most tend to be hung-up hipsters who really are just as shallow as the people they claim to rail against through their "alternative lifestyle."

I think the whole thing of defining somebody by their music is so strange, and so corporate. You are what you are, not "emo", "indie", "punk", "ghetto", etc.

I would actually say they are smarter, but more pretentious.  Most of the indie fans I've met tend to smart, friendly people.  Also, most the indie fans in my area are normal people (most of the nerds at my school listen to Nu Metal).  Unfortunately, this is balanced out by the fact that they're also pretentious and seem to have the opinion that their music is naturally superior to all others and that everything mainstream is crap.  I've even met one person who used to love Death Cab for Cutie, but he hates them now because he thinks they sold out by becoming somewhat popular.  While this is not always the case, some seem to feel that a band needs to be completely underground to have any integrity at all.  In the end though, I'd have to say they're smarter when it comes to music.  I'd take The Decemberists over "Grillz" any day.

They do come of as being pretenious, but they do have great taste in music.

They may be smarter when it comes to music, but the stuff they listen to is deadly dull, esoteric, and whiny, usually without any raw emotional power. It's just meant to give an impression of "smart", but doesn't inspire life. Music like the Decembrists may be pretty, but it's ultimately without passion and vivacity. This is an affliction most mainstream music, but not all, shares these days.

Maybe they are smarter people, but they tend to be closeminded.

I hate getting labeled as indie or emo for having some of the same tastes as them, or listening to some "sad music" like Joni Mitchell, Tori Amos, etc. It's not whiny, it's powerful and penetrating, and grips at your heart.

I would actually say they are smarter, but more pretentious.  Most of the indie fans I've met tend to smart, friendly people.  Also, most the indie fans in my area are normal people (most of the nerds at my school listen to Nu Metal).  Unfortunately, this is balanced out by the fact that they're also pretentious and seem to have the opinion that their music is naturally superior to all others and that everything mainstream is crap.  I've even met one person who used to love Death Cab for Cutie, but he hates them now because he thinks they sold out by becoming somewhat popular.  While this is not always the case, some seem to feel that a band needs to be completely underground to have any integrity at all.  In the end though, I'd have to say they're smarter when it comes to music.  I'd take The Decemberists over "Grillz" any day.


You totally sum up my thoughts.

I like Indie Rock, as a whole ... I'm not crazy about the acoustic side of it, but I love Death Cab For Cutie and Postal Service, along with Arcade Fire, Blur, and quite a few others.  The people who like indie rock (and indie pop and hip-hop) tend to be really friendly, but also kind of weird and misanthropic (but then again, I'm weird and misanthropic).  They also tend to be smart and have a good sense of humor.

Where the indie people annoy me though, is:

1. The posers.  People who love Bright Eyes or Death Cab, and think that this alone makes them some sort of uber-cool Stephen Hawking. 

2. When they disown a band for simply becoming popular.  It's understandable to look down on them for "selling out", that is compromising their music for money, but to stop liking them simply because "a bunch of mainstream retards" like them is silly if they still sound as good/the same.

You totally sum up my thoughts.

I like Indie Rock, as a whole ... I'm not crazy about the acoustic side of it, but I love Death Cab For Cutie and Postal Service, along with Arcade Fire, Blur, and quite a few others.  The people who like indie rock (and indie pop and hip-hop) tend to be really friendly, but also kind of weird and misanthropic (but then again, I'm weird and misanthropic).  They also tend to be smart and have a good sense of humor.

Where the indie people annoy me though, is:

1. The posers.  People who love Bright Eyes or Death Cab, and think that this alone makes them some sort of uber-cool Stephen Hawking. 

2. When they disown a band for simply becoming popular.  It's understandable to look down on them for "selling out", that is compromising their music for money, but to stop liking them simply because "a bunch of mainstream retards" like them is silly if they still sound as good/the same.


I really think it's impossible to make generalizations about what kind of person you are based on what music you listen to. I mean, some things are obvious-if you're a man who loves Tori Amos and Madonna like me, you're obviously gay. I'm putting this as a disclaimer, based on how ashamed I am of what I am about to write.

The NE Indie people who I've met tend to be snooty trendsters who will follow any new band deemed to be hip to the grave, whether they like it or not, which was never the principal of alt rock in the first place. I also think oftentimes they're extremely unfriendly to people who don't agree with them, extremely materialistic, and don't have much valuable to say about anything. They may be smart or at least culturally sophisticated, but they are usually incredibly immature and elitist, and tend not to be very nice or accepting by any means. Again, this is the NE; I'm not sure about the rest of the country.

No, they just think they are

I chose 'No but they think they are'.

Someone above said that one of the reasons why Indies annoy them so much is because they're stuck up, I definately agree. Although most of the people I know from school are "emo" (whatever they think that is) they did used to be "indies". But yeah, they are posers but some people just like to change their style more than they change their underwear.

I think the whole thing of defining somebody by their music is so strange, and so corporate. You are what you are, not "emo", "indie", "punk", "ghetto", etc.



I totally agree with that. I'd like to add though that I dont like the need to classify music by those in the music industry period. It's just there attempt to put labels on whatever's new and hip to make a qiuck buck off of it. Take "grunge" for example. It isn't even really a genre of music when you think about it but rather artists who all hit it big in the same area and sounded somewhat similair had a label attached to them so the record companies could make money off the "grunge movement". O.K my rant's over now :)

I totally agree with that. I'd like to add though that I dont like the need to classify music by those in the music industry period. It's just there attempt to put labels on whatever's new and hip to make a qiuck buck off of it. Take "grunge" for example. It isn't even really a genre of music when you think about it but rather artists who all hit it big in the same area and sounded somewhat similair had a label attached to them so the record companies could make money off the "grunge movement". O.K my rant's over now :)


I kind of like labels, but yes they're used for good more than they are for good, so we'd probably be better off without them :)

I kind of like labels, but yes they're used for good more than they are for good, so we'd probably be better off without them :)



That's the same way I feel. Labels as a concept dont bother me but it's just the way they get misused that does.

No. They think they are.

Whit music made for white people who have erased 'trivia' from our lives by incorporating School House Rock and such retro stuff part of thei r everyday lives...rehashing the old with a slightly new twist or using old instruments ....urg. it gets me mad and I can't talk.

No. They think they are.

Whit music made for white people who have erased 'trivia' from our lives by incorporating School House Rock and such retro stuff part of thei r everyday lives...rehashing the old with a slightly new twist or using old instruments ....urg. it gets me mad and I can't talk.


Yeah, I agree with that...indie rock tends to be targeted at ridiculously white "liberals" from urban areas who live in the 'burbs or in "trendy" parts of the city. It's snooty, persnickety, lifeless, gimmicky, and ultimately unoriginal and sterile, for about 80% of it produced since the mid-90s.

Okay, I've written a very long, angry tirade about all this.. but what's the point in posting it? It's just big words thrown together to look appealing and place myself above you common folk.

After all, I AM an Indie fan.

Further more, what the f--k is the whole deal with School House Rock? That doesn't make any sense.

It has nothing to do with intelligence. It's just taste. Music is here for entertainment and enjoyment. Some peole like me think that mainstream music is annoying and displeasing, so they listen to other stuff.

Well, I feel I should at least say this: I think the thread is poorly-worded, or you're all just more bigoted then I thought. The thread sort of asks "Is there a stereotype of Indie fans?" and then, since most people consent that a stereotype does indeed exist, we make it into a "yes or no" question, "Are Indie people smarter?". We all know the stereotype, so we vote based on it. That's kind of like saying "Okay, so we all know there's a stereotype that black people are lazy. We might even KNOW some lazy people who happen to be black. Well, by that logic, everyone who has black skin must be lazy, right?"


Think before you respond...

You know... "Indie People" is not really a stereotype, it's just someone who listens to indie music? And an indie artist is an artist signed by an indie label. You know who was signed to an indie label? ... Charles Mingus... That's right. JAZZ ARTISTS ARE INDIE TOO!!

That's the same as being prejudice too, just because you listen to indie music doesn't mean you're smarter or think you're smarter. Why... I listen to indie music, and I am one of the most.. naive? (I wouldn't say stupid, but I'm no smarter than the average person!) people I know. So I think listening to indie music has nothing to do with it. Maybe a lot of "smarter people" listen to it, but it's not linked with the listening of indie music.

To heck with that term! Let's just call it rock, alternative, or whatever type of music you're thinking of.

:P By the way, like emo... a lot of what's considered indie is just power pop.

There's a difference between listening to indie music and being "Indie." Again, I'm basing this on the music I've heard that's labeled "indie" and the "Indie" people that I've met. BTW, DominEl, I LOVE the Frank Zappa lyrics you have in your profile, one of my all time favorite songs.

There's a difference between listening to indie music and being "Indie." Again, I'm basing this on the music I've heard that's labeled "indie" and the "Indie" people that I've met.


True, but most people make the connection of Indie must equal Indie Music Fan.

True, but most people make the connection of Indie must equal Indie Music Fan.


The problem is, most hipster music labeled "Indie" ruins the name of the majority of indie music, IMO.

There's a difference between listening to indie music and being "Indie." Again, I'm basing this on the music I've heard that's labeled "indie" and the "Indie" people that I've met. BTW, DominEl, I LOVE the Frank Zappa lyrics you have in your profile, one of my all time favorite songs.


I like it too... The irony of the sarcasm of it all!

Oh, and technically... Frank Zappa is an indie artist as well...  :o

I like it too... The irony of the sarcasm of it all!

Oh, and technically... Frank Zappa is an indie artist as well...  :o


I don't see "indie" so much by technically as by style and ethos.

For instance, the Backstreet Boys are technically signed to an indie label in the late '90s, but no indie kids were digging them.

Don't get me wrong, I love indie rock, but the "indie kids" are just as annoying as the trendsters.

I don't see "indie" so much by technically as by style and ethos.

For instance, the Backstreet Boys are technically signed to an indie label in the late '90s, but no indie kids were digging them.

Don't get me wrong, I love indie rock, but the "indie kids" are just as annoying as the trendsters.



So what do you define as an "indie kid"?

So what do you define as an "indie kid"?


An indie kid is someone who follows a "scene", is part of one, or looks down on people who like popular music.

An indie kid is someone who follows a "scene", is part of one, or looks down on people who like popular music.



Yeah those are the people that I dont really care for. The guys that think there smarter than someone else just because of what music they listen to not fans of indie as a whole(being that I am one ;))

Really, the whole concept of defining one's self by the music one listens to has been around for decades.  Every music style, throughout the years, has acquired an image or stereotype.  Just look at Grunge.  It was meant to be anti-image and was also supposed to be a music scene.  The whole concept of a "Grunge Culture" never occurred to the musicians.  However, after it became popular, people concocted this alternative culture.  The grunge fan became stereotyped as a slacker who didn't do anything, was apathetic (perhaps depressed), and other such things.  Ironically, the media made Grunge being anti-image...part of it's image.

Another example is Emo.  There now exists an emo stereotype, so much to the point where it has become a stereotypical high school clique.  Did this image always exist though?  In some ways, it did, but it was never close to extent it was now.  Emo started as music and now has a whole culture devoted to it.  

It's sad, but people will always define themselves by the music they listen to.  It's been that way since at least the 1960's, probably longer.  It's a trend that will continue for decades.  In many ways, however, it is a creation of the media.  Unfortunately, the fans often buy into this media image.  We'll be seeing 'music cultures' for years to come.

^Very true music subcultures are as old as the hills and will probably be around as long as pop culture itself will. My guess is because of the need to fit in at school or the world as a whole.

An indie kid is someone who follows a "scene", is part of one, or looks down on people who like popular music.


Those are the EMO Indies.

I'm what I like to call "Indie Black". It's someone who actually HAS something to be upset about usually.. they also tend to be funnier, if not a bit dark.

Those people are cool.

Those are the EMO Indies.

I'm what I like to call "Indie Black". It's someone who actually HAS something to be upset about usually.. they also tend to be funnier, if not a bit dark.

Those people are cool.


I see.  Yeah those guys are cool.

Most artists are at least at one point "indie", you could say, by a loose definition.

My dislike for the "indie kids" is compounded by my dislike for most "indie music" that fits into the "indie music" stereotype, and what I personally think of it, but that's just my opinion.

Yeah, I agree with that...indie rock tends to be targeted at ridiculously white "liberals" from urban areas who live in the 'burbs or in "trendy" parts of the city. It's snooty, persnickety, lifeless, gimmicky, and ultimately unoriginal and sterile, for about 80% of it produced since the mid-90s.


'Snooty, persnickety, lifeless...unoriginal and sterile?' Are you referring to the whole Indie scene as a whole or the music itself? How much real 'indie' music have you heard? Get to that later. I don't associate myself with the 'Indie' scene...I don't really hang out with 'musos' or 'stoners' or people with 'musical taste', I listen to music I LIKE and don't give a damn about what people think about it (well, mostly, I think the Village people are probably my cut off) and I think it is naturally assumed Indie listeners are anti-mainstream. It's true, alot of them are quite pretentious and look down on the mainstream because it is so 'commercialised', while they themselves are as commercialised (perhaps even worse, because they won't admit it),  totally think automatically disliking music because it is on the Top 40 Chart is just...a load of crap. People say Green Day sold out after American Idiot...but if they actually knew anything about Green Day, they realised they 'sold out' on their first album, 'Dookie.' I think one must differentiate between those who prefer 'alternative' stuff and just want to listen to good music, and those militant 'indies' who want to play some obscure music in some obscure club and make 'artistic' music. To them, making money from music is like a crime.

So the point is, I think the whole question of whether 'Indie people' (a very inaccurate label, I must say) are 'smarter' is ridiculous. I know alot of intelligent people who listen to the mainstream. I think it's more people who think they are more cultured which might tend to listen to more 'artistical adventurous, or deep' music. As I said, I don't usually listen to Top 40 music because most of the music I hear is GENIUNELY CRAP, and I'd personally not wish to be labelled because of my music preferences. But that's my rant done with, lol, just couldn't ignore this thread.

^I agree Trimac.  There's nothing wrong with wanting to listen to good music, it's just those people that think musical success is evil, and only you and 5 friends should hear your music that annoys me.  And those who think everyone who doesn't listen to their music is a "retard".

Again, the whole thing irritates me of how if you occasionally are thoughtful or sad you're "emo." Or "EMO Indie." I hate the word "emo."

Oddly enough, many of the 'anti-commericialists' today love anything before about 1985, even pretty commercial stuff like, um...the Beatles (who doesn't like them). Even super-commercial groups like the Archies or the Monkees aren't attacked as vehemently as today's bubble-fluff music. But back then in the 60s, there was also a backlash against commercialism. Goes to show there will always be those sort of people. It's the principle that 'music should be made to make money' that should be attacked. Almost everyone like's music, but it seems more people like money better.  ;)

Again, the whole thing irritates me of how if you occasionally are thoughtful or sad you're "emo." Or "EMO Indie." I hate the word "emo."


No, no, no, you got it all wrong. People who are sad or thoughtful aren't "EMO". "EMO" is something like "Indie", except it's the stereotype of an EMO listener. It's someone who makes their own problems seem very large-scale, Romantic, and as if they're the only person who ever feels that way. "EMO Indie" is the cross-stereotype, which is an "EMO" with an elitist view of music.

None of these are fitting labels for people, which is why I only refer to these as the definition of stereotypes. When someone calls you "EMO" (which is a widely-abused phrase), they're saying you're acting in the fashion of that stereotype.. it's poorly worded is what it is. "You're being EMO" really means "You're acting like that stereotypical whiny teenage kid who actually has it pretty well in life.".. either way, it's abused, annoying, and usually inaccurate.

I call a few friends EMO, but mostly to mock the whole "EMO-Calling" thing.

No, no, no, you got it all wrong. People who are sad or thoughtful aren't "EMO". "EMO" is something like "Indie", except it's the stereotype of an EMO listener. It's someone who makes their own problems seem very large-scale, Romantic, and as if they're the only person who ever feels that way. "EMO Indie" is the cross-stereotype, which is an "EMO" with an elitist view of music.

None of these are fitting labels for people, which is why I only refer to these as the definition of stereotypes. When someone calls you "EMO" (which is a widely-abused phrase), they're saying you're acting in the fashion of that stereotype.. it's poorly worded is what it is. "You're being EMO" really means "You're acting like that stereotypical whiny teenage kid who actually has it pretty well in life.".. either way, it's abused, annoying, and usually inaccurate.

I call a few friends EMO, but mostly to mock the whole "EMO-Calling" thing.


I really despise it when people call themselves "emo." Sorry for using the term wrong.

I really despise it when people call themselves "emo." Sorry for using the term wrong.


It's cool. But one thing...

You know people who call themselves "EMO"? I've only ever known one person, my ex, who used it like a term of endearment. Most people who fit the stereotype of "EMO" usually deny that they're that way at all.

No, no, no, you got it all wrong. People who are sad or thoughtful aren't "EMO". "EMO" is something like "Indie", except it's the stereotype of an EMO listener. It's someone who makes their own problems seem very large-scale, Romantic, and as if they're the only person who ever feels that way. "EMO Indie" is the cross-stereotype, which is an "EMO" with an elitist view of music.

None of these are fitting labels for people, which is why I only refer to these as the definition of stereotypes. When someone calls you "EMO" (which is a widely-abused phrase), they're saying you're acting in the fashion of that stereotype.. it's poorly worded is what it is. "You're being EMO" really means "You're acting like that stereotypical whiny teenage kid who actually has it pretty well in life.".. either way, it's abused, annoying, and usually inaccurate.

I call a few friends EMO, but mostly to mock the whole "EMO-Calling" thing.


People with real problems don't whine, they go and do something about it..

It's cool. But one thing...

You know people who call themselves "EMO"? I've only ever known one person, my ex, who used it like a term of endearment. Most people who fit the stereotype of "EMO" usually deny that they're that way at all.


I think the better word for emo is "bitchy and needs to be slapped."

I think the better word for emo is "bitchy and needs to be slapped."


Well, that DOES describe my ex.  ;D

People with real problems don't whine, they go and do something about it..

Very true. Or at least they try.

How can you base indie rock off of the Decembrists? I hate them and that is NOT indie rock. Check out MGMT, Deerhunter, or Dillingers Escape Plan which is indie but also considered Math Metal. Gain some perspective. People who listen to indie rock are smarter......just deal with it.

God you are all wrong. First of all, Indie is a genre based on the sound of the music and style not because they are on a indie label. It is not all downer music or stuff that sounds like death cab or decemberists which both suck.......check out MGMT which is considered indie but happen to be on a major record label or the complete reverse with Thunderhawk which is completely underground and considered indie...We indie rock listeners don't look down on people who listen to mainstream music but we do feel sorry for them because they haven't been exposed to indie rock or their reputation is too important for them to ditch their Kanya West listening friends. MTV really did ruin it all. Bands that were considered pop in the 60's and 70's followed the same eclectic chord progressions as what I or smart people consider indie rock............IT IS NOT ABOUT BEING ON AN INDEPENDENT LABEL.......IDIOTS...ESPECIALLY THAT GUY WHO SAID BACKSTREET BOYS WERE INDIE...........EVEN BIGGER IDIOT.....coming from a very very trained musician, I take offense to that. I am not putting myself above others; there are just some with higher IQ's and that is a fact. I feel fortunate to be exposed and understand the beautiful forms of indie songs.

And the dude who said indie was unoriginal since the 90's............I think you are confusing indie w/ grunge....gain some perspective. check out Deerhunter and the track Nothing ever happened and tell me I didn't covert you to indie

^

You get three "indie" rock fans in a room, and they'll argue all night about what is and is not "indie."  You get three "mainstream" listeners in a room and they won't argue about anything.  They'll watch the basketball game.

What does that tell you?
???

You get three "indie" rock fans in a room, and they'll argue all night about what is and is not "indie."  You get three "mainstream" listeners in a room and they won't argue about anything.  They'll watch the basketball game.

What does that tell you? ???


...that NIN was too industrial!  Not like those guys banging on air ducts back in the 70s, man!

I log myself in with the greatest of ease,
And safe in the darkness, press on the keys,
On an 00's board thread, my hand on the latch,
I preview my posting and throw in a match.
  - With apologies to MC 900 Foot Jesus.

I am a huge nerd, so I picked the top option.

So I listen to a lot of indie music. I listen to very little mainstream. However, I don't judge people by their musical tastes (I just REALLY love when somebody has similar tastes to mine). I'm also not elitist and listen to a great deal of many genres of music--just not usually mainstream.

Um... not sure what this contributes to the thread, but it is true.

^ We're the Meatmen and you suck!

^ We're the Meatmen and you suck!


MEATMEN STOMP! 

One of the bands I'd always wanted to see live.  (1988's "...AND YOU STILL SUCK!" was a high point of my cassette years...)  They were the 80s genre-parody equivalent of today's Steel Panther.

One of the things I love about this place, however, is that it makes you look up whatever happened to The Meatmen, and in this age of turbo-retro-glam, I'm gleefully delighted to discover that they got together in 2008 to release an album in 2009.  And that I can still live the dream, because the reformed meat is touring again in 2010.  Road trip to the Midwest!

MEATMEN STOMP! 

One of the bands I'd always wanted to see live.  (1988's "...AND YOU STILL SUCK!" was a high point of my cassette years...)  They were the 80s genre-parody equivalent of today's Steel Panther.

One of the things I love about this place, however, is that it makes you look up whatever happened to The Meatmen, and in this age of turbo-retro-glam, I'm gleefully delighted to discover that they got together in 2008 to release an album in 2009.  And that I can still live the dream, because the reformed meat is touring again in 2010.  Road trip to the Midwest!


WE'RE THE MEATMEN AND YOU SUCK AGAIN!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumleft.gif

These days I think exposing yourself to a wide variety of music of certainly a good thing. I used to only listen to mainstream stuff when I was a teen in the first half of the '00s, but I gradually opened my horizons in the 2nd half of the decade. I do like pop for what it is, like I've said I think it will always have it's place. Katy Perry isn't a "great musician" by any stretch of the imagination but she's good entertainment, same with say Rihanna. I still think the types that have a snobbish attitude towards music and constantly complain and complain about mainstream are annoying. I love how easy it is to access and listen to any type of music you want in the modern world. It's hard to even define what is mainstream these days. A lot of these so called indie groups they're actually pretty darn mainstream when you think about it (i.e. Arcade Fire, MGMT), and really they're more mainstream than some gimmick rap hit (i.e. Teach Me How To Dougie  8-P) that's on the Hot 100.

For us, it was curiosity.  We just followed what we liked.  My introduction to "Industrial" was Einsturzende Neubauten via Depeche Mode. 

In 1986 it was a rarity to find a band fully electronic.  Depeche Mode managed to sell millions of Rock records worldwide without using guitar or drums.  It still is.  DM took an electronic show on the road and managed to perform like a rock 'n' roll band.  Dave Gahan worked up a dance act to keep the mood going.  Electronics are another time removed from direct interaction.  The real thing will always sound better.  I like my electronics either to accompany the main instrument(s) or electronics alone.  The computer is just another instrument.  You can use it to make great music or you can use to make stupid crud, just like a guitar or a French horn. 

The foundation of what we know as ambient music has been around regal courts for centuries.  It's called "Chamber Music."

From there we get to the late Romantic/early Modern with Debussy's and Satie's strange new musics.  Morton Feldman was independent of the "Ambient" movement.  He was teaching at the University of Buffalo in the '70s and '80s.  His later works tended to consist of quiet and subtly changing tones, sometimes with percussion, sometimes for chamber group.  Sometimes for mixed chamber.  He often stormed down to the rehearsal floor and bellow: "It's too f**kin' loud and it's too f**kin' fast!"

Feldman associated with the Abstract Expressionists, such as Philip Guston and Mark Rothko, and wanted to canvas musical time with the way they could canvas space with color.  Rothko can look like a fuzzy orange rectangle until you start studying the all the other aspects of abstract painting.

That's what happens when you listen to Feldman's music.

This is modern classical esoteric, not "Indie."  I wish it had even half the listenership!

8)