I wonder if it would really make sense to spend what will probably amount to trillions of dollars to rebuild a city that lies 10 feet below sea level and, unless radically redesigned, would still be susceptable to similar future natural events. Has the unthinkable just occurred? Have we just witnessed the loss of a major American city?  :\'(


This is something I have been thinking about for a long time, even before what happened this week.  And I am sure what I am about to say is going to upset a lot of people, but here it is anyways.

New Orleans needs to be abandoned.

I do not mean the entire city.  But with the exception of the French Quarter and other historic areas, it needs to be abandoned if it is not at least 10 feet above sea level.

The areas to be saved should have stout protective walls erected around it, to help prevent this from happening again.  And when it does happen again (and it will someday), that way the death and damage will be much less.

But there is something else that needs to be done.  And it may be even more severe.

A lot of people do not realize that for the last 50-100 years, the Mississippi River has been trying to change it's course.  The Army Corps of Engineers has been fighting it, keeping it on the current course through brute force.

At the northern border of Louisiana is the diversion of the Mississippi and Atchafalaya Rivers.  There is a diversion dam there, that forces 70% of the water into the Mississippi River, and 30% into the Atchafalaya River.  If that structure was to suddenly be heavily damaged or destroyed, from 80-90% of the river will shift, going down the Atchafalaya River.

The results will be catastrophic.  South Western Louisiana and South Eastern Texas will be devistated.  And the river through New Orleans (and most of Louisiana) will dry up to little more then a creek.

Because of the dam, the Mississippi is being forced into what is now an unnatural course.  Once again, Man is trying to play God, and fighting nature.  If nothing else, we should know that eventually, nature will win.  It may be years, or decades away.  But someday, something will go wrong, and the river will shift course.  When that happens, the death and damage may well make Katrina look like a minor storm.

New Orleans needs to be permanently evacuated.  The refugees are our generations version of the "Dust Bowl migrants" of the 1930's.  New homes need to be found for them, new jobs, new lives.

And plans have to be made to cover what will eventually happen when the river does shift course.  I feel that it should be done by us.  Evacuate the lower areas, dredge a deeper channel, build newer, wider bridges.  Let the river shift gradually, until it takes a course that nature decides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchafalaya_River
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_River_Control_Structure

*sits back and watches to see what the response to this will be*

 One would think that it would be possible to build in the low areas. They don't have to have living quarters below sea level. Build them onto a stilt design or use the lower areas, say 15-20 feet, for parking garages.
 
 The planners and engineers would still need to figure out some sort of an evacuation system. I think that was biggest cause for the problem now, along with people refusing to leave. I'm sure some opportunistic people were staying for personal gain.

I'm at a loss, with the advance warning, why city and other buses weren't used to evacuate those willing but unable to leave on their own.

 Finally, I don't know if the area could be abandoned without economic impact on shipping. I guess the ships could chug their way west to the Texas ports.  :-\\

Well, for starters, most relief and rebuilding aid should go to the other gulf coast cities and communities who have shown themselves to be responsible adults.

I personally will not give one nickle of charitible contribution to New Orleans, but WILL assist via financial contribution other stricken communities.  Why?

In New Orleans, all people did was b*tch and moan, and that includes the incompetent and wholly irresponsible mayor, and that simpering, annoying Governor.  The Mayor blamed everyone else, the cops walked off the job, the people robbed, murdered, and raped each other.  Quite an unworthy target of charitible contribution.

In other areas comparably devastated, people pulled together and worked towards recovery... and yes, asked for help.  But they saw that the PRIMARY responsibility for their well-being was themselves.  What a refreshing thought.

I saw appicture on TV of an old black lady in one of the other gulf areas, sweeping broken glass off the roadway "so that other people would not get flat tires"  Not b*tching or moaning, but focusing on what SHE could do, however small.  And yes, she also was asking for help.

In New Yoirk City's darkest day, the police and firefighters ran TOWARDS THE BATTLE.  In New Orleans they walked off the job.  In New Orleans, the citizenry then started shooting at releif vehicles that started coming in.

Mind you, the Federal Givernment's response left much to be desired.  But the PRIMARY responsibility for my well-being is ME.  And the PRIMARY responsibility for the well-being of New Orleans is its own government.  When the time came to step up to that plate, they belligerently struck out.

Burn it

Well, for starters, most relief and rebuilding aid should go to the other gulf coast cities and communities who have shown themselves to be responsible adults.

I personally will not give one nickle of charitible contribution to New Orleans, but WILL wazooist via financial contribution other stricken communities.  Why?

In New Orleans, all people did was b*tch and moan, and that includes the incompetent and wholly irresponsible mayor, and that simpering, annoying Governor.  The Mayor blamed everyone else, the cops walked off the job, the people robbed, murdered, and raped each other.  Quite an unworthy target of charitible contribution.

In other areas comparably devastated, people pulled together and worked towards recovery... and yes, asked for help.  But they saw that the PRIMARY responsibility for their well-being was themselves.  What a refreshing thought.

I saw appicture on TV of an old black lady in one of the other gulf areas, sweeping broken glwazoo off the roadway "so that other people would not get flat tires"  Not b*tching or moaning, but focusing on what SHE could do, however small.  And yes, she also was asking for help.

In New Yoirk City's darkest day, the police and firefighters ran TOWARDS THE BATTLE.  In New Orleans they walked off the job.  In New Orleans, the citizenry then started shooting at releif vehicles that started coming in.

Mind you, the Federal Givernment's response left much to be desired.  But the PRIMARY responsibility for my well-being is ME.  And the PRIMARY responsibility for the well-being of New Orleans is its own government.  When the time came to step up to that plate, they belligerently struck out.


isn't that kind of harsh, mate? yes there was and is a lot of b*tching and moaning going on. but there is/was alot of people just putting their faces in their hands and just crying because they lost everything, which may have included a loved one. and yes the local, state, and federal government dropped the ball big time on this one. but these people need help from whomever and wherever they can get it from. so the blame needs to be put aside for now. besides there will still be plenty of blame to go around years from now anyway.

If those idiots in New Orleans continue to Rape Little Girls and Kill each other, than they can just suffer for all I care. That sheesh is uncalled for and these damn Juvenile's need to be put out of their misery

This is something I have been thinking about for a long time, even before what happened this week.  And I am sure what I am about to say is going to upset a lot of people, but here it is anyways.

New Orleans needs to be abandoned.

I do not mean the entire city.  But with the exception of the French Quarter and other historic areas, it needs to be abandoned if it is not at least 10 feet above sea level.


You could say the same thing about major cities in California like Los Angeles and San Francisco(or most of Japan as well, even). They're in an area at risk for earthquakes, and have been fearing "The Big One" for a long time.

There's significant reasons one might think they should be abandoned as well.

Well, for starters, most relief and rebuilding aid should go to the other gulf coast cities and communities who have shown themselves to be responsible adults.

I personally will not give one nickle of charitible contribution to New Orleans, but WILL assist via financial contribution other stricken communities.  Why?

In New Orleans, all people did was b*tch and moan, and that includes the incompetent and wholly irresponsible mayor, and that simpering, annoying Governor.  The Mayor blamed everyone else, the cops walked off the job, the people robbed, murdered, and raped each other.  Quite an unworthy target of charitible contribution.

In other areas comparably devastated, people pulled together and worked towards recovery... and yes, asked for help.  But they saw that the PRIMARY responsibility for their well-being was themselves.  What a refreshing thought.

I saw appicture on TV of an old black lady in one of the other gulf areas, sweeping broken glass off the roadway "so that other people would not get flat tires"  Not b*tching or moaning, but focusing on what SHE could do, however small.  And yes, she also was asking for help.

In New Yoirk City's darkest day, the police and firefighters ran TOWARDS THE BATTLE.  In New Orleans they walked off the job.  In New Orleans, the citizenry then started shooting at releif vehicles that started coming in.

Mind you, the Federal Givernment's response left much to be desired.  But the PRIMARY responsibility for my well-being is ME.  And the PRIMARY responsibility for the well-being of New Orleans is its own government.  When the time came to step up to that plate, they belligerently struck out.


With all due respect, I have to strongly disagree with you here, Lyricboy. You're judging an entire community by the actions of a few people which happened to have been reported on tv. What about all the other people who were behaving themselves? You're leaving them out, as well. The rapists and murderers probably make up less than one tenth of one per cent of the people stranded in the city.

You're making generalizations about an entire group, something that everyone knows is wrong.

I've been watching coverage of this disaster on CNN, and I've seen hospital employees working round the clock in impossible situations, trying to save as many lives as they can.

And you can't blame people for whining and acting a little bit hysterical when they're in a life and death situation. These are people who've lost everything and are barely hanging on. They're just trying not to die of starvation.

And anyway, anyone who's been through a disaster like this one deserves our help just because they're our fellow human beings, and we couldn't call ourselves human beings if we didn't offer that help to them.

With all due respect, I have to strongly disagree with you here, Lyricboy. You're judging an entire community by the actions of a few people which happened to have been reported on tv. What about all the other people who were behaving themselves? You're leaving them out, as well. The rapists and murderers probably make up less than one tenth of one per cent of the people stranded in the city.

You're making generalizations about an entire group, something that everyone knows is wrong.

I've been watching coverage of this disaster on CNN, and I've seen hospital employees working round the clock in impossible situations, trying to save as many lives as they can.

And you can't blame people for whining and acting a little bit hysterical when they're in a life and death situation. These are people who've lost everything and are barely hanging on. They're just trying not to die of starvation.

And anyway, anyone who's been through a disaster like this one deserves our help just because they're our fellow human beings, and we couldn't call ourselves human beings if we didn't offer that help to them.


I agree with satish on this one, a few people always make the rest look bad.

isn't that kind of harsh, mate? yes there was and is a lot of b*tching and moaning going on. but there is/was alot of people just putting their faces in their hands and just crying because they lost everything, which may have included a loved one. and yes the local, state, and federal government dropped the ball big time on this one. but these people need help from whomever and wherever they can get it from. so the blame needs to be put aside for now. besides there will still be plenty of blame to go around years from now anyway.


Valhalla,

Not a bit harsh.  People seem to forget that the person who is primarily responsible for my well being is ME.

Yesterday, the local authorities showed yet again that "their colors run".  When New Orleans needed its own police and firefighters the most, the Mayor just tool every one of them off the job and on to see shrinks in Baton Rouge.  He and the local police/fire officials, when the citizenry needed them the most, abdicated.

Hey, no doubt a few cops had problems with the turmoil.  But to pull off the WHOLE FORCE?  A complete, total lack of leadership.  How that whining idiot got into office simply amazes me.  The citizens of New Orleans, mind you, will probably reelect him.

Can you imagine Rudy Guiliani pulling the NYPD and FDNY off the job on, say, September 16, 2001?  Never.  And the NYPD and FDNY would NEVER HAVE ALLOWED IT.  Those guys in New York are true american heroes.  The "leadership structure" in New Orleans is irresponsible, corrupt in its concept of its responsibilities and, in the end, ratted out the town.  An embarassment to the South and an embarassment to America, alonmg with the rapists, thugs, and looters of their town.

Not one penny.

If those idiots in New Orleans continue to Rape Little Girls and Kill each other, than they can just suffer for all I care. That sheesh is uncalled for and these damn Juvenile's need to be put out of their misery
You are wrong pal. Not everyone in New Orleans rapes and kills other people...There ARE good people there that deserve all the help that they can get. You and LyricBoy are wrong to think everyone in New Orleans is worthless...are YOU perfect?

Valhalla,

Not a bit harsh.  People seem to forget that the person who is primarily responsible for my well being is ME.

Yesterday, the local authorities showed yet again that "their colors run".  When New Orleans needed its own police and firefighters the most, the Mayor just tool every one of them off the job and on to see shrinks in Baton Rouge.  He and the local police/fire officials, when the citizenry needed them the most, abdicated.

Hey, no doubt a few cops had problems with the turmoil.  But to pull off the WHOLE FORCE?  A complete, total lack of leadership.  How that whining idiot got into office simply amazes me. The citizens of New Orleans, mind you, will probably reelect him.

Can you imagine Rudy Guiliani pulling the NYPD and FDNY off the job on, say, September 16, 2001?  Never.  And the NYPD and FDNY would NEVER HAVE ALLOWED IT.  Those guys in New York are true american heroes.  The "leadership structure" in New Orleans is irresponsible, corrupt in its concept of its responsibilities and, in the end, ratted out the town.  An embarassment to the South and an embarassment to America, alonmg with the rapists, thugs, and looters of their town.

Not one penny.
I hate to say it, but you sound like you are judging ALL PEOPLE who reside in New Orleans on the actions of a few!

I hate to say it, but you sound like you are judging ALL PEOPLE who reside in New Orleans on the actions of a few!


Perhaps, but the leadership structure of New Orleans will squander any money sent their way.

Tell you what... if a needy individual asks for help, I'm game.  But no bucks to the corrupt institutions of NOLA.

Perhaps, but the leadership structure of New Orleans will squander any money sent their way.

Tell you what... if a needy individual asks for help, I'm game. But no bucks to the corrupt institutions of NOLA.
What about donating through the Red Cross?

What about donating through the Red Cross?
Good enough  for me and my wife....we donated :) Colorado has been very active in helping the victims....people from here have been part of the rescue effort as well as Denver opening up ploaces for people to stay :)

Perhaps, but the leadership structure of New Orleans will squander any money sent their way.

Tell you what... if a needy individual asks for help, I'm game.  But no bucks to the corrupt institutions of NOLA.


I suppose if you just don't want to donate to any of the 3 levels of government(local, state, federal) because you think they're inept, I can see where you're coming from. A lot of other people feel that way, which is why, as others in this thread have already mentioned, they're donating money to third party relief agencies like the Red Cross instead.

Lyricboy and those of similar mind are not taking into account how much greater the devastation to the Gulf Coast is from Katrina than the the devastation of the terrorist attack on the WTC.  I also think it is not a useful comparison. 
If one of those anomolous hurricanes zips up the Atlantic coast, as id the Eastern Seaboard Hurricane in 1938, and devestates New York City with category 4 force, you couldn't keep order with a hundred Rudy Giulianis! The devastation to greater New York would be unfathamable, and the civil upheaval would dwarf what you now see in New Orleans.  It doesn't wash to say, "oh if only Rudy Giulini were here!"  Please, I'm sick of this juvenile manner of here worship, it's soooo FOX News.

Anyway...

Here is another thought much on my mind.  Right now they're pumping out poisonous water and toxic sludge from New Orleans into Lake Ponchartrain.  What impact will this have on the ecology?  Will these poisons--petroleum, industrial wastes, heavy metals--ruin the shellfishing industry?  What of the Cajuns who rely on the Ragged Soul estuaries for subsistance?

New Orleans will never be the same, but Louisianans are not going level the place.  They are hardy folks, and they'll want to move back.  Louisiana is a poor state.  They need the tourism dollars.  How much will it cost to restore and revitalize the French Quarter and other historical locales?  I think the country owes it to New Orleans to help the city restore its cultural value after the basic needs of the people are seen to.

We cannot stop a categor 4 or 5 hurricane from demolishing the city altogether in the future.  It's a real possibility, but I can't see just giving up.

I've been reading articles for years about the sinking of New Orleans and the attrition of the Ragged Soul.  Civic planning must take this geological inevitability into account.

I hear rumors that the rich want to come back and rebuild, and keep the pesky poor out of the Big Easy for good.  It's only a rumor.  I haven't heard anybody confirm it.  I'm sure there are some who will be this crass and disrespectful.  They must not be allowed to set the resttlement policies.  America has to learn to do right be its needy and vulnerable citizens.  Will Hurrican Katrina force us to learn the lessons of the Depression-era Dust Bowl all over again?

New Orleans will never be the same, but Louisianans are not going level the place.  They are hardy folks, and they'll want to move back.  Louisiana is a poor state.  They need the tourism dollars.  How much will it cost to restore and revitalize the French Quarter and other historical locales?  I think the country owes it to New Orleans to help the city restore its cultural value after the basic needs of the people are seen to.

We cannot stop a categor 4 or 5 hurricane from demolishing the city altogether in the future.  It's a real possibility, but I can't see just giving up.

I've been reading articles for years about the sinking of New Orleans and the attrition of the Ragged Soul.  Civic planning must take this geological inevitability into account.

I hear rumors that the rich want to come back and rebuild, and keep the pesky poor out of the Big Easy for good.  It's only a rumor.  I haven't heard anybody confirm it.  I'm sure there are some who will be this crass and disrespectful.  They must not be allowed to set the resttlement policies.  America has to learn to do right be its needy and vulnerable citizens.  Will Hurrican Katrina force us to learn the lessons of the Depression-era Dust Bowl all over again?
Today on satellite radio (I can't remember if it was Fox News or CNN), there was a report that a prominent geophysicist came out and said that New Orleans should not be rebuilt and that even before the hurricane, they were expecting it to disappear within the next 100 years anyway due to it's continued sinking and rising ocean levels.

I don't understand why, knowing that a hurricane of that magnitude was headed their way, knowing that over a hundred thousand were not capable due to economic and other conditions of leaving the city, didn't the governor have every single greyhound bus and schoolbus in the state commendeered perhaps by the highway patrol, and use them to transport those persons out of the city?

Today on satellite radio (I can't remember if it was Fox News or CNN), there was a report that a prominent geophysicist came out and said that New Orleans should not be rebuilt and that even before the hurricane, they were expecting it to disappear within the next 100 years anyway due to it's continued sinking and rising ocean levels.


That is a well known fact among geologists.

New Orleans is built up upon a river delta.  The land is soft sediment, and is only replaced by the shifting current of the Mississippi.  Every time the river shifts, the movement lets the mud & silt under the old path rise up because of the lack of pressure.  The river then moves on, depositing mud and silt in a new location.  This is what causes the "fan" shape that characterizes a delta.

Eventually, anything built upon it will sink below the water line.  This is what happened to Fort St. Leon.  Used from 1808 until 1817, it is now almost totally underwater.  This also happened to Fort Iberville (1700-1711) and Fort St. Philip (1761-1923).

Because there would STILL be thousands who wouldn't leave. Just as there were thousands who had the ability to leave and didn't. Even now, with a MANDATORY evacuation, there are some who are refusing to leave.

This is just my 2 cents, and I'm sure some people will jump all over me, but eh, nothing new:
I think that many people did not understand what the impact of staying would be. They've all seen Florida be hit by umpteen hurricanes and not be devastated like this. The difference is the people of Florida, having been hit by multiple hurricanes, KNOW to "get out of Dodge". Houses & buildings are built in such a way that they can withstand a hurricane and suffer little damage. The houses & buildings in the areas affected were NOT. As was stated in another thread, many of these were 100 years old (give or take) and being hit by a Cat 4 hurricane wasn't even considered. In the more rural areas of Mississippi and Louisiana, I would imagine the houses/buildings were built as cheaply as possible in order to make them as affordable as possible. I would also venture to say that many of them would be rebuilt in much the same way.




They should have made them leave. If the evacuation really was mandatory, why the heck didn't they enforce it?

Also, many of the people who didn't leave, chose not to involuntarily. Many New Orleans residence do not own cars because public transportation is so accesable. Its not to a New York City extent or anything, but there are a large number of people who don't own vehicles, and a great many of them are in poverty; so they couldn't afford to buy tickets out on a Greyhound or anything.

Honestly, I don't see why anyone would WANT to stay at this point, but there are some stubborn people in this world.  I spoke to one mother who has enrolled her son at my childrens' school today and she offered people transportation out of town and noone took her up on it.  She also said that many others in the area where she lived had the same experience.  According to her, the people honestly didn't think it was going to be that bad.


That is actually rather typical.

According to what I am hearing, over 80% of the people who stayed chose to do so.  They decided to ride the storm out at home, rather then leave.

The reasons vary.  Some did not want to rick having their homes broken into by looters, some did not want the inconvience, and others did not want to put up with the inconvience of not being at home.

And there are an estimated 1,000-3,000 people still living in the flooded areas.  And a great many of them will have to be removed by force.  Some people simply refuse to leave their home, no matter how bad things are.  This is just human nature.

I myself have done this through hurricanes.  But when it looks to be a bad one (like Ivan, which dropped tornadoes less then 5 miles from my house) I leave.  While I do not want to sleep in a shelter, it is better then getting killed or stuck.

We were talking about this at work today.  I think the reason some of the people are still refusing to leave is that their homes is all they have and they don't want to lose it.  They are scared.  It wouldn't surprise me if they were mostly elderly and been in the same place for decades.  It's sad.

Burn it
Oh yeah, burn it....with all those historic homes and all the culture down in that area...you might as well say goodbye to stuff like Mardi Gras and Preservation Hall jazz...no more happiness for people living in New Orleans...and no hope and no life, just sad memories of what was....and some people won't be able to 'just learn to live with it'....
It's horrible, you saying BURN IT.