Quoting:
Not that many years ago, the KKK and other such groups wanted to ban Civil Rights groups that promoted equal opportunity.

The US Constitution is clear on this subject.  We have freedom of speech and freedom of association.  But once your use of speech or association becomes violent, you go to jail.
End Quote

But we all know the KKK has become violent, on many many occasions.  They were probably the first terrorist group America has ever known.  The KKK are a political terrorist group that hides behind constitutional rights.  A foreign terrorist cell like Al-Qaeda could never openly continue to exist in the United States the way the KKK does.  The FBI keeps an eye on the KKK, especially many of their nutball events and parades, but that's about it.

Quoting:
They have the right to freedom of speech, but they don't have the right to murder blacks. Some of them are murderers.
End Quote

This is the most ridiculous statement.  No one has the right to murder anyone regardless of race (or religion).  The KKK doesn't discriminate only against blacks.  

Yes, some of them are murderers, most of them aren't.  I'm sure not going to make excuses for the KKK or its members.  I think they're nuts.

Quoting:
Sorry, but these groups are not terrorist groups.  Terrorism, by definition, is "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.  These groups, though vile and ignorant, are not targeting the government or society as a whole, as Al Qaida has done.  It still doesn't make it right, though.  
End Quote

By using your definition, I think these groups ARE terrorist groups. Not so much of intimidating the government but intimidating societies. When the KKK burn crosses on someone's lawn, they are doing that to intimidate the black society.

But, like everyone has pointed out, the KKK and other groups have the right to free speech. You can say whatever you like, However, when that speech gets a little out of hand, then it becomes a problem. I will defend the First Admendment to the hilt. But, I do not agree with distruction of property, or any means of intimidation-whether it be from the KKK or from PETA or any other group. That is why we have laws against hate crimes. To me, education is the key in all of this. If you teach diversity and tolarence, maybe people will realize that blacks, jews, hispanics, whatever, are not so different from white-Christians.



Cat

Quoting:...for the freedom of ALL in this country and abroad... End Quote

I think you just answered your own question.


They have the right to assemble, protest, march, speak, rally, etc etc, just as you and I do.  I agree that their intent and message is absolutely horrible and pathetic, but I also think the same of other groups, not just the KKK.  

I don't think much more can be said about it that hasn't already been said by others in this thread.  Basically, they are protected under the Constitution, just like anyone is.  Its only when they cross the bounds and become violent or destructive that they are technically breaking the law.

Quoting:
WARNING: Please keep an open mind when reading this. My intention is not to offend; it is based on fact. If anyone wants direct references, I will be more than happy to oblige.

The Ku Klux Klan not only hides behind the First Amendment of the American Constitution, but it hides behind the Bible as well, to justify their actions and beliefs. They cite various passages from the book of Leviticus as the reasons why they think they way they do. Many Christians who denounce the KKK as being racist, anti-Semitic, and homophobic believe that the Bible is being misconstrued by them. The fact is, it isn't. If you read the book of Leviticus, it clearly states that the Lord really does hate anyone who is different, which includes people of colour, the disabled, and homosexuals. If anyone wants direct references, I will be more than happy to read Leviticus more thoroughly, mark relevant passages and post them. In the meantime, go here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/notes.html

It is because of this book, which obviously seems to be overlooked by a lot of people, that I choose not to be a Christian. We are all taught that God is supposed to love everyone, but obviously he doesn't. And being disabled, I think, personally, if I were a Christian, that would be hypocritical.

By the way...the relevant passages mentioned in that website, I have looked up myself in my own copy of the Bible, and nothing has been altered. It's all there.

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

You have to take the Old Testament with a serious grain of salt.  The people of the Old Testament were a bunch of barbarians. God had to tell those people how to go to the bathroom.  I prefer the New Testament, because Jesus came along and told people that they never really understood what was in the Old Testament in the first place.  

A big problem with the KKK, other bigoted organizations, and even a lot of quiter Archie Bunker type "normal" closet bigots is that think that being White Anglo somehow automatically equates to being pure and God's chosen magic super people.

All other folks that aren't White Anglo are just that,..."other" and "minorities" that are different by default.  It's a VERY ethnocentric line of thought.  I mean the chances that either Moses or Jesus was a White Anglo, especially one with blonde hair and blue eyes is so slim.

Quoting:
Let's see now.  The KKK hates...

-Blacks
-Jews
-Catholics
-Hispanics
-Japanese
-Chinese
-Any other Orientals
-Gays

It might be easier to come up with a list of who they DONT hate.
End Quote

Add the physically challenged,mentally ill,and developmentally challenged to the hate list as well!

Quoting:

Add the physically challenged,mentally ill,and developmentally challenged to the hate list as well!
End Quote

I forgot to add Muslims.

Quoting:
WARNING: Please keep an open mind when reading this. My intention is not to offend; it is based on fact. If anyone wants direct references, I will be more than happy to oblige.

The Ku Klux Klan not only hides behind the First Amendment of the American Constitution, but it hides behind the Bible as well, to justify their actions and beliefs. They cite various passages from the book of Leviticus as the reasons why they think they way they do. Many Christians who denounce the KKK as being racist, anti-Semitic, and homophobic believe that the Bible is being misconstrued by them. The fact is, it isn't. If you read the book of Leviticus, it clearly states that the Lord really does hate anyone who is different, which includes people of colour, the disabled, and homosexuals. If anyone wants direct references, I will be more than happy to read Leviticus more thoroughly, mark relevant passages and post them. In the meantime, go here: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/notes.html

It is because of this book, which obviously seems to be overlooked by a lot of people, that I choose not to be a Christian. We are all taught that God is supposed to love everyone, but obviously he doesn't. And being disabled, I think, personally, if I were a Christian, that would be hypocritical.

By the way...the relevant passages mentioned in that website, I have looked up myself in my own copy of the Bible, and nothing has been altered. It's all there.

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

God did not write the Bible himself.

Quoting:
Hey this is America, we can do or say anything we want.  We have our freedom, so get over it.  
End Quote

Oh come on Wolveroses. What kind of a statement is this? Everybody has certain freedoms but not everybody can do whatever they like - Prisons would be full for a start.  :)

Quoting:
Oh come on Wolveroses. What kind of a statement is this? Everybody has certain freedoms but not everybody can do whatever they like - Prisons would be full for a start.  :)
End Quote

LOL!  I didn't expect a reply to my message.  Somewhere in there you didn't catch the sarcasm.  We all as one have the right to say what we want, so why do you people bother even payig attention the the KKK?  They're bunch of mislead people who don't understand, or were brought up the wrong way.  Or should I say you people who don't like them are mislead?

Quoting:
If people kill for their beliefs, they should be put away. There is never any justification for murder.
End Quote

Why, that's no more than what Al-Qaeda do. Why are their members being locked up if the KKK are allowed to continue?

Quoting:


Why, that's no more than what Al-Qaeda do. Why are their members being locked up if the KKK are allowed to continue?
End Quote

Because the KKK is an American organisation, and heaven forbid if George W. should lock up a bunch of white Americans who are not much different from Al-Qaeda! (Except that they're white and American.) ::) :-/

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:


Because the KKK is an American organisation, and heaven forbid if George W. should lock up a bunch of white Americans who are not much different from Al-Qaeda! (Except that they're white and American.) ::) :-/

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

Comparing Al Qaeda & the KKK is like comparing apples to oranges.  As Mr. 80's stated, the KKK's original "basis" was separatism.  Just as with any other organization (certain "Pro-Life" groups come to mind), there are radicals within the organization who have gone too far, but not all Klan members promote violence.  The fact that they're allowed to exist has nothing to do with ANY administration.  And, thanks to "hate crime" legislation, their crimes are punished more fervently than some gangbanger killing someone.  However, Al Qaeda's sole purpose is to eliminate Americans.  It's not a matter of a few (or even a majority) of their members being "radicals",  it's the whole group of them.  They don't care if you're black, white, Christian, Muslim, gay or straight.  If you're an American, you have a target on your back as far as they're concerned.  

Quoting:
Because the KKK is an American organisation, and heaven forbid if George W. should lock up a bunch of white Americans who are not much different from Al-Qaeda! (Except that they're white and American.) ::) :-/
End Quote

Wow. ::)

Not that I am defending the KKK, I am certainly not.  But as far as I know, the KKK has never ran a global terrorist network, have never hijacked airplanes and drove them into buildings, etc etc.  

The KKK and Al-Qaeda cannot be compared in that respect.

The KKK has a list of people they hate, Al-Qeada hates the entire West.

Quoting:
I cannot believe that miscreant DAVID DUKE actually ran for public office in Louisiana,and they were stupid enough to vote for him. By the way, the American Nazi Party tried to get candidates on the presidential ballot as well as state ballots. Needless to say,they were not successful,and I hope they NEVER are! Also, the Communists used to be on the ballot,with Gus Hall as their candidate. Both extremes use intimidation and brute force to achieve their goals.
End Quote

Its not all distant past:

Robert Byrd - (D-WV)  current Democratic Senator from West Virginia...and former KKK member.

Quoting:


Its not all distant past:

Robert Byrd - (D-WV)  current Democratic Senator from West Virginia...and former KKK member.
End Quote

I was just thinking that.

Woosaaaaaaaa...

Quoting:
Since the First Amendment rights have already been addressed , I only wanted to reply to one comment that was made....the difference between the 'hate' of the KKK and their ilk and Al Quaeda.

KKK and such hate because they believe they are superior. No reason neccesary, they just believe they are superior . That's their hate.

Al Quaeda and such hate for very different reasons. The 'West' , wich can be roughly translated as the United States, has intruded upon their society's and affairs since the 40's. They have backed faction after faction , only to turn around and back the other faction against another faction; and basically create all kinds of distrust, death and even (in the case of the creation of Isreal) wholesale slaughter and relocation of their people . They don't hate because they think their better , they hate because they've been put upon to the last straw and fight back the only way they can.  The only way that hate will ever end is when the USA and other intruders stop meddling in their affairs.
End Quote

Sorry, I don't agree.  Al Qaeda believes that they are the "chosen ones" and Americans are "Infidels".  If you listen to any of the speeches Osama has made, or read any of the literature from them, all he (they) talk(s) about is the "jihad" or "holy war".  They too feel that, as Muslims, they are superior to Christians, Jews, etc.  AND, AQ was originally formed to fight off the Soviets, not the Americans.  Their goal now is to rid the world of all non-Muslim people and create an Islamic world.

Quoting:


Sorry, I don't agree.  Al Qaeda believes that they are the "chosen ones" and Americans are "Infidels".  If you listen to any of the speeches Osama has made, or read any of the literature from them, all he (they) talk(s) about is the "jihad" or "holy war".  They too feel that, as Muslims, they are superior to Christians, Jews, etc.  AND, AQ was originally formed to fight off the Soviets, not the Americans.  Their goal now is to rid the world of all non-Muslim people and create an Islamic world.
End Quote

That is what people in this country are told by the good 'ol mainstream. Historical facts paint a bigger picture. "AQ" didn't exist at the time of the Soviet occupation. Bin Laden was a part of the Afghan rebels. And was backed ,helped trained and supported by the United States. Now if I am in error about an organization called Al Quaeda existing at that time I'll retract that statement. But as far as I know "AQ" didn't exist until after the Americans stopped supporting the rebels and started supporting the Taliban.

And Muslims most certainly don't think they are 'superior' to Christians or Jews or anyone else.  That is a myth and slander perpetrated by the American media. They ,as any religion, feel they have the right to practice their faith without being persecuted.They as any religion think theirs to be the correct one. It's the fanatics of ALL the religions that cause so much harm. And if you look back thru history you'll find Christian's responsible for FAR more war and death in the name of their god than any other religion.

The facts are out there for the researching. Seek them if you wish.

Quoting:
???Why are hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan,Aryan Nation, and other "white supremacist" groups allowed to exist in the USA? As someone whose father fought in World War II,supposedly for the freedom of ALL in this country and abroad, I find this absolutely DISGUSTING! Anyone in their right mind KNOWS that these groups KILL people who are not "WASP"(White Anglo Saxon Protestant),"non-flawed""Aryan Americans"! And yet our Constitution grants them protection,our government is wishy-washy about going after these sickos and locking them up(where they belong!),while they kill people such as Matthew Sheppard(Killed because he's openly gay. How sick!) the African American man who was dragged behind a truck by white supremacists in Texas a few years ago,and the 3 little girls that were killed :'( when Byron De La Beckwith and other Klan members in Alabama in 1963(?) These bigoted people should be considered a threat to our freedom just as much as Al-Queda or any other terrorist group. How do you all feel about this? :o
End Quote

Yes they are Americans and do have the right to freedom and speech, I dont agree with it because its said, but it happeneds unforunatly, just like hate groups against gays, women, guys, mexicans, anyone.... its very sad that the worls is comming to an end.......

Quoting:


That is what people in this country are told by the good 'ol mainstream. Historical facts paint a bigger picture. "AQ" didn't exist at the time of the Soviet occupation. Bin Laden was a part of the Afghan rebels. And was backed ,helped trained and supported by the United States. Now if I am in error about an organization called Al Quaeda existing at that time I'll retract that statement. But as far as I know "AQ" didn't exist until after the Americans stopped supporting the rebels and started supporting the Taliban.

And Muslims most certainly don't think they are 'superior' to Christians or Jews or anyone else.  That is a myth and slander perpetrated by the American media. They ,as any religion, feel they have the right to practice their faith without being persecuted.They as any religion think theirs to be the correct one. It's the fanatics of ALL the religions that cause so much harm. And if you look back thru history you'll find Christian's responsible for FAR more war and death in the name of their god than any other religion.

The facts are out there for the researching. Seek them if you wish.
End Quote

According to everything I've found online, AQ originated in 1979-1980.  It was originally part of the MAK (Maktab al-Khidamat) which coordinated the effort against the Soviets in Afghanistan.  When Osama's co-leader in the MAK was assasinated, they formally split to form what is today known as Al Qaeda.  So, the origins go back to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

You misread my statement (perhaps I didn't state it well).  AQ indeed feels that they are superior.  Meaning, those who believe as they do, that the world should be ruled in accordance with strict fundamentalist-Islamic laws, are the "chosen ones".  Those who disagree are "infidels".  Included in the group of "infidels" are Muslims who disagree with their ideology, Christians, Jews, and those countries with governments that rule by democracy.  As the United States has supported many of the countries with predominately Muslim populations but "pro-Western" governments, they are against the United States.

Quoting:


According to everything I've found online, AQ originated in 1979-1980.  It was originally part of the MAK (Maktab al-Khidamat) which coordinated the effort against the Soviets in Afghanistan.  When Osama's co-leader in the MAK was assasinated, they formally split to form what is today known as Al Qaeda.  So, the origins go back to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.End Quote

Interesting. I'll have to look into it some more. Sounds like you did your homework tho. My education and areas of research deal with how the 'West' ( even tho I hate that broad a term) have infiltrated and abused Arabic societies, so I admit I didn't know exctly when AQ was formed.

Quoting:You misread my statement (perhaps I didn't state it well).  AQ indeed feels that they are superior.  Meaning, those who believe as they do, that the world should be ruled in accordance with strict fundamentalist-Islamic laws, are the "chosen ones".  Those who disagree are "infidels".  Included in the group of "infidels" are Muslims who disagree with their ideology, Christians, Jews, and those countries with governments that rule by democracy.  As the United States has supported many of the countries with predominately Muslim populations but "pro-Western" governments, they are against the United States.
End Quote

Yes but again, one must look at the decades of motivation for such fanatical groups to spring up. I don't agree with it, but the peoples of the Middle East have put up with alot of crap over a loooooooooooooooonggggg time. Christian fanatics in America who bomb abortion centers have the same sort of 'chosen one'  philosophies. They're no better.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic. And yes I did misunderstand your initial Muslim post, sorry .

Quoting:


Interesting. I'll have to look into it some more. Sounds like you did your homework tho. My education and areas of research deal with how the 'West' ( even tho I hate that broad a term) have infiltrated and abused Arabic societies, so I admit I didn't know exctly when AQ was formed.


Yes but again, one must look at the decades of motivation for such fanatical groups to spring up. I don't agree with it, but the peoples of the Middle East have put up with alot of crap over a loooooooooooooooonggggg time. Christian fanatics in America who bomb abortion centers have the same sort of 'chosen one'  philosophies. They're no better.

Sorry for taking this thread off topic. And yes I did misunderstand your initial Muslim post, sorry .
End Quote

It's no problem.  I actually have a friend from HS who is Muslim.  Her brother has extensively studied all of the major religions as well as Middle East history.  He speaks 9 different languages (4 Arabic based ones, if I'm not mistaken) and has worked for our government doing translations of some of the "literature" they have intercepted/found/received, as well as translating for some of the people they have questioned in regards to terrorist groups here in the US.  Of course, he hasn't been able to go into detail, but even HE is scared of what these people believe and what they are capable of.

Quoting:
Al Quaeda and such hate for very different reasons. The 'West' , wich can be roughly translated as the United States, has intruded upon their society's and affairs since the 40's.
End Quote

THis is kinda off-topic, but I will reply anyways.

Al-Quaeda hates non-Muslim states.  In fact, they hate any nation that does not practice Islam the way THEY shay it should be done.

They want the world to become a giant fundamentalist state.  It is much more then just "the west and what they have done to them".  In fact, the USA once supported them against Afganistan.  They place their beliefs in front of anything else, and will stab a former ally in the back if their doctrine says they owe nobody else any allegiance.

Al-Quaeda takes a view of religion that is even against most Islamic beliefs.  According to the Koran, Jews and Christians are both "People of the Book", and are *NOT* infidels.  But to these findamentalists, anybody not believing in THEIR version is an infidel.  This is the danger.  It would be like modern Roman Catholics declairing a holy war against Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Catholics.

Quoting:
It would be like modern Roman Catholics declairing a holy war against Protestants and Eastern Orthodox Catholics.
End Quote

What, again?  After the Pope has finally apologised for what the RC church did to Eastern Orthodoxy, what was it, 900 plus years ago...

Phil
PS Curtis - don't know if you've had a look at this already, but I think it'll make you laugh:
Don't Let's Be Beastly To The Muslims

Quoting:


PS Curtis - don't know if you've had a look at this already, but I think it'll make you laugh:
Don't Let's Be Beastly To The Muslims

End Quote

Umm...no didn't make me laugh. Seemed like the typical racist crap. Or amy misinterpreting it?

Quoting:


Umm...no didn't make me laugh. Seemed like the typical racist crap. Or amy misinterpreting it?
End Quote

I'd like you to point out anything remotely racist within - it pokes fun at some of the odder elements within Islam, in much the same way as I've done for Christianity in the past.  If you think it "racist", I'd say that says a lot more about your own intolerance.. not to mention a complete absense of a sense of humour.  My guess is you didn't actually read it, simply scanned and dismissed it without it ever entering the brain.

Phil

Quoting:
Umm...no didn't make me laugh. Seemed like the typical racist crap. Or amy misinterpreting it?
End Quote

Actually, the term would be "bigoted", because Islam is a religion, not a race.

One thing I am learning from my new life here in the South, is that the more Liberal somebody is, the more raceist/bigoted they normally are.

I work with 3 other people in my office, all 3 of them are liberal Democrats.  Yet, they have no problem calling people by some very nasty slurs.  Many times, I have asked them to not use such terms around me, and especially when they are talking to me.  But it does little good.

What amazes me, is that one guy I work with complains about my listening to Rush, calling him a "Raceist bastard".  Yet, he himself uses the "N Word" all the time.  After the SuperBowl incident, he told me "That Janet Jackson may be a N, but she is a fine looking N bitch".  And this is from somebody that calls Rush a raceist!

I have finally gotten tired of trying to tell them that such things offend me, and have started to shun them.  If one of them uses such language around me, I simply do not talk to them for an hour or so.  I know it will not stop them, but hopefully it will make them think, and not use them around me.

The amazing thing is, I am the Conservative Republican Christian, surrounded by Liberals who think themselves "enlightened".  I am percieved by many as a bigot, yet my best friend is a lesbian, and my best friend back in LA is gay, and my ex-wife is Hispanic (actually born in Argentina).

As for the song itself, I find nothing offensive in it.  It is simply looking at differences in cultures, not passing judgements on them (unless you think suicide bombers is OK).

I think people need to lighten up whenever somebody makes a comparison between cultures, when insult is not the intention.  Look at most Jewish humor.  Imagine a Mel Brooks movie without the references to Jewish culture.  Or a Spike Lee movie without reference to Black culture.  Just because somebody points out a difference, that does not mean it is an attack.

Quoting:


Actually, the term would be "bigoted", because Islam is a religion, not a race.

End Quote

yes that would be it, thanx for the correction.

Quoting:

I'd like you to point out anything remotely racist within - it pokes fun at some of the odder elements within Islam, in much the same way as I've done for Christianity in the past.  If you think it "racist", I'd say that says a lot more about your own intolerance.. not to mention a complete absense of a sense of humour.  My guess is you didn't actually read it, simply scanned and dismissed it without it ever entering the brain.

Phil
End Quote

A) As pointed out by another user, I used the wrong term, The term is biggoted I should have used.

B) Explain to me what intolerance has to do with me not finding that funny?

C) As to having no sense of humor.....well gosh that must explain that huge collection of Monty Python, Eddie Izzard, Richord Pryor, Saturday Night Live, National Lampoon , various John Cusak and eighty's films and various comedy's from all film era's including a complete collection of Abbott and Costello films sitting in my collection. Yup...I have no sense of humor.

D)Your statement : "My guess is you didn't actually read it, simply scanned and dismissed it without it ever entering the brain."  BZZZZZZZZZZ   guessed wrong.

Quoting:

C) As to having no sense of humor.....well gosh that must explain that huge collection of Monty Python, Eddie Izzard, Richord Pryor, Saturday Night Live, National Lampoon , various John Cusak and eighty's films and various comedy's from all film era's including a complete collection of Abbott and Costello films sitting in my collection. Yup...I have no sense of humor.
End Quote

OK, then I must assume you were equally insulted with "I Like Chinese" (Chinese insult), "Every Sperm Is Sacred" (Catholic insult), The Lumberjack Song (Canadian, Cross Dressing, and Homosexual insults), "Never Be Rude To An Arab (Arabs, Jews, Italian, and many other ethnicities all insulted at once, WITH racial slurs), and I think that is enough to make my point.

You claim to be insulted by that song, while you claim to enjoy a group that makes MUCH worse songs.  How can anybody listen to "Never Be Rude To An Arab" without wincing?

OK, so your sense of what is right and wrong is different then that of others.  But please, do not make the assumption that they are bigoted just because they look at things differently.  That is very degrading, and it actually weakens the meaning of the word.

I know that I have been accused of being raceist in the past, even to the degree that formal charges were brought against me when I was in the military.  The charge?  Being raceist against Hispanics!  I still remember the military lawyers face, when I told him where my 6 month bride was born and raised.  Needless to say, those charges were dropped as quickly as possible.

Quoting:
A) As pointed out by another user, I used the wrong term, The term is biggoted I should have used.
End Quote

In that case, I'll rephrase my previous question: please could you point out anything remotely bigoted within.  Unless you can quote me something specific, I'll take your assertion as so much hot air.  The song has been carefully researched and is basically a fairly honest appraisal of some of the odder facets of Islam - there is only one word in it that I'm not completely happy with (which is pretty good for a song of that length and complexity).

Quoting:
B) Explain to me what intolerance has to do with me not finding that funny?
End Quote

I'd have thought that was self-evident: "oh, no! It's poking fun at Muslims, therefore it must be racist oops, I mean bigoted" shows a very high lack of tolerance...

Quoting:
C) As to having no sense of humor.....well gosh that must explain that huge collection of Monty Python, Eddie Izzard, Richord Pryor, Saturday Night Live, National Lampoon , various John Cusak and eighty's films and various comedy's from all film era's including a complete collection of Abbott and Costello films sitting in my collection. Yup...I have no sense of humor.
End Quote

Does somebody need to explain to you the difference between a possessive and a plural? This might help...

As Mr_80s has so kindly pointed out, there are some much more extreme racial stereotypes within that collection...

Phil

Quoting:
A good website that shows the Truth about
Klan leader David Duke

Stopduke.org
            .com

He is nothing but a Fraud and a Charlatan, I have trouble believing that Duke supports giving more assisstance, to the mentally and physically challeneged,
he says this in his book "My Awakening" like Mein Kampf,
It's filled with half-truths, lies and Pseudo-Schlarship
End Quote

Not that I am defending David Duke but you can't believe everything you read.  Of course a website with the name of Stopduke would be anti David Duke.  Just like a site for the election of Duke would post only positive things.

Quoting:
Since the First Amendment rights have already been addressed , I only wanted to reply to one comment that was made....the difference between the 'hate' of the KKK and their ilk and Al Quaeda.

KKK and such hate because they believe they are superior. No reason neccesary, they just believe they are superior . That's their hate.

Al Quaeda and such hate for very different reasons. The 'West' , wich can be roughly translated as the United States, has intruded upon their society's and affairs since the 40's. They have backed faction after faction , only to turn around and back the other faction against another faction; and basically create all kinds of distrust, death and even (in the case of the creation of Isreal) wholesale slaughter and relocation of their people . They don't hate because they think their better , they hate because they've been put upon to the last straw and fight back the only way they can.  The only way that hate will ever end is when the USA and other intruders stop meddling in their affairs.
End Quote

And you suggest we don't support Israel? Because the Arab world considers it 'meddling'.

Quoting:

And you suggest we don't support Israel? Because the Arab world considers it 'meddling'.
End Quote

The "Arab World" is almost xenophobic when it comes to outsiders.  They welcome them in with open arms, when it suits their puropses.  But once their usefullness is gone, they want them out of there.

And this is nothing new.  Check back about 2,000 years ago, when Israel invited in Rome.  Then again when they welcomed in England.  Yet again, we were invited in many times since WWII to help protect them from threats from neighbors.  But once that threat is gone, they want the outsiders out, until needed again.

To them, "meddling" is "anything that we do not like that you are involved in".  We sold weapons to everybody in the region that wanted them, but sell an old M-14 rifle to Israel, and they have fits.  We even sold Saudi Arabia some old AWACS planes, just to pacify them after selling Israel some obsolete fighter jets.

Quoting:


Actually, the term would be "bigoted", because Islam is a religion, not a race.

One thing I am learning from my new life here in the South, is that the more Liberal somebody is, the more raceist/bigoted they normally are.

I work with 3 other people in my office, all 3 of them are liberal Democrats.  Yet, they have no problem calling people by some very nasty slurs.  Many times, I have asked them to not use such terms around me, and especially when they are talking to me.  But it does little good.

What amazes me, is that one guy I work with complains about my listening to Rush, calling him a "Raceist bastard".  Yet, he himself uses the "N Word" all the time.  After the SuperBowl incident, he told me "That Janet Jackson may be a N, but she is a fine looking N bitch".  And this is from somebody that calls Rush a raceist!

I have finally gotten tired of trying to tell them that such things offend me, and have started to shun them.  If one of them uses such language around me, I simply do not talk to them for an hour or so.  I know it will not stop them, but hopefully it will make them think, and not use them around me.

The amazing thing is, I am the Conservative Republican Christian, surrounded by Liberals who think themselves "enlightened".  I am percieved by many as a bigot, yet my best friend is a lesbian, and my best friend back in LA is gay, and my ex-wife is Hispanic (actually born in Argentina).

As for the song itself, I find nothing offensive in it.  It is simply looking at differences in cultures, not passing judgements on them (unless you think suicide bombers is OK).

I think people need to lighten up whenever somebody makes a comparison between cultures, when insult is not the intention.  Look at most Jewish humor.  Imagine a Mel Brooks movie without the references to Jewish culture.  Or a Spike Lee movie without reference to Black culture.  Just because somebody points out a difference, that does not mean it is an attack.
End Quote

As a liberal, I wonder by what criteria you'd use to determine if I was racist.

You can't just lump all of us into these charges you make.  The legacy of racism is just as much a stain on the American "north," as it is on the Confederate states.
We recognize that.  However, the South did hang onto Jim Crow laws until they forced to stop.  It's been a lot more recent, and a lot more violent.

You know, I think a lot of  "Conservative Republican Christians" lay claim to victim status as a rhetorical fortress from which to attack others.

Quoting:
As a liberal, I wonder by what criteria you'd use to determine if I was racist.
End Quote

That would depend on YOU.  I find that a lot of people have a moral up-front persona, but when away from the public eye, their hidden part comes to light.  Just look at all the "enlightened Hollywood liberals", who bash religion at any chance.

Quoting:
You can't just lump all of us into these charges you make.  The legacy of racism is just as much a stain on the American "north," as it is on the Confederate states.
We recognize that.  However, the South did hang onto Jim Crow laws until they forced to stop.  It's been a lot more recent, and a lot more violent.
End Quote

I admit that is a generalization.  But here is a good example.  I work with a guy who slams anything "Conservative".  Bush is a retard, Limbaugh is a blowhard.  I tried to ask him about Coulter, Hannity and Goldberg, but he never heard of them.

He talks about how great unions are, about how much the Welfare program needs reform, because they do not give him enough money every month.  (BTW. this guy does not "work" with me, he just hangs out where I work.  He is on "disability", yet he is able to move around 75 lb. monitors with no problem".

This guy also can't say anything about a black person without saying "that word".  A typical example would be after the Superbowl, when he told me "for a *N*, Janet Jackson is a fine looking bitch".

And from California to Alabama, I find this typical.  If it is in view of their belief, it is good.  If it is outside their sphere of belief, it is bad and evil.  Like how people claim Rush is raceist, while one of his most common replacement hosts is black, and he was married by a black judge.  Kind of strange behavior for a raceist.

I am not going to defend Jim Crowe laws.  No more then I would defend Apartheid.  Both were evil and wrong.  But notice, Jim Crowe was enacted in one of the strongest areas of the Democratic party?  George Wallace was a Democrat, and ran for President several times (he was shot while on the campaign trail).  In fact, it was not until AFTER the Jim Crowe laws lost their power that the Republican party came into strength again in the South.  And remember, the origin of the Democrats is a pro-slavery "white man's party", while the Republicans started as an anti-slavery party.

Quoting:
You know, I think a lot of  "Conservative Republican Christians" lay claim to victim status as a rhetorical fortress from which to attack others.
End Quote

I do not claim victim status about ANYTHING.  What I do hate is being said I am something that I am not.  I am the first one to speak up about raceism.  And I was a Liberal before I became a Republican, then later I became Conservative.  I became a Christian much later then that.  I was even pro-drug once, before I became a drug counselor, and worked on the "drug war", and saw all the damage it does to our society.

I believe everybody has the right to their belief.  I may not agree, but that is their right, and they have the right to speak up about it.  I do notice that the "other side" is much more willing to deny me my belief though.  I do not agree with "gay marriage"?  I must be a homophobe.  I am against "afirmitive action"?  I must be a raceist.

I do not attack others because of their views, but I will point out if I feel they are wrong.  And I do not attack the person, but the view.  I think another difference is that to a religious person, all things are "God given", even life.  To those Liberals that favor a Socialist stance, they see everything as justified by doctrine.  Their belief is enough to allow them to do anything they want.  It is the outcome that matters, not how they get there.  This is how Communism and "National Socialism" tried to achieve their goals.

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And from California to Alabama, I find this typical.  If it is in view of their belief, it is good.  If it is outside their sphere of belief, it is bad and evil.  End Quote

I don't think Liberals have the corner on this market.  ANYONE who has strong beliefs feels that they are right (good) and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong (bad).  

Quoting:
That would depend on YOU.  I find that a lot of people have a moral up-front persona, but when away from the public eye, their hidden part comes to light.  Just look at all the "enlightened Hollywood liberals", who bash religion at any chance.End Quote

Movie stars don't deal with the same problems the average person does.  They don't live in the same America.  The same is true of multi-multi-millionaires and billionaires who have the greatest influence on our political parties and process.  The difference is, I couldn't care less what Time Robbins and Susan Sarandon have to say.  George W. Bush is President and I see no evidence that he even understands life outside his privileged world, nor do I see any evidence that he "gets" the central tenets of Christianity.
I have grave doubts about Kerry, too, although he doesn't Jesus it up every chance he gets.
I'm a liberal who doesn't bash religion.  I bash hypocrisy and misappropriation of religion for nefarious purposes.  I do know liberals who bash religion itself.  I wish they wouldn't.

Quoting:
I admit that is a generalization.  But here is a good example.  I work with a guy who slams anything "Conservative".  Bush is a retard, Limbaugh is a blowhard.  I tried to ask him about Coulter, Hannity and Goldberg, but he never heard of them.
End Quote

I don't think Bush is a "retard," most mentally retarded individuals are gentle, benign, well-meaning people.  Rush is a gifted orator and broadcaster at the same time as he is a blowhard.  Blowhard is his style.  I don't agree with Rush's politics.  I find his arguments specious, prejudiced, and made solely to support the interests of the very rich.  If one doesn't see the spectrum of humanity, but the black-and-white of partisan politics, then Mr. Limbaugh's arguments are most cogent.  As for Hannity, Coulter, and Goldberg, I haven't a kind word to say about any of them.  I've watched these pundits for years, and the more Fox News exposes them to me, the more intellectually feeble their points of view prove themselves to be.  
The right-wing punditocracy would like to kill liberalism,  but they are promoting a polity poisonous to true conservatism.

Quoting:
And from California to Alabama, I find this typical.  If it is in view of their belief, it is good.  If it is outside their sphere of belief, it is bad and evil.  Like how people claim Rush is raceist, while one of his most common replacement hosts is black, and he was married by a black judge.  Kind of strange behavior for a raceist.End Quote

So there's no chance that Rush and Co. sought out  Walter Williams in order to showcase a right-wing black man?
Let me put it another way.  The attacks agains liberals who objected to Justice Thomas, Miguel Estrada, and Janice Rogers Brown to be risible.  Hannity, for example, accused the Democratic party of having a "race problem."  He claimed that while giving lip service to minorities, Democrats fought to keep them out of power.  Rubbish.  Why should Democrats support a reactionary of any stripe?  Would it not be racist of Liberals to say, "Well, Janice Rogers Brown is politically to the right of Bush, but we need to support her because she's an African American woman"?
I thought Miguel Estrada was a remarkable individual with a brilliant mind, but that doesn't mean I would overlook how much I disagree with him.
It was the Bush Administration who were looking at skin color.  The Democrats were looking at judicial records and political philosophy as criteria.

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I am not going to defend Jim Crow laws. End Quote

Well sir, I should hope not!

Quoting:But notice, Jim Crowe was enacted in one of the strongest areas of the Democratic party?  George Wallace was a Democrat, and ran for President several times (he was shot while on the campaign trail).  In fact, it was not until AFTER the Jim Crowe laws lost their power that the Republican party came into strength again in the South.  And remember, the origin of the Democrats is a pro-slavery "white man's party", while the Republicans started as an anti-slavery party.End Quote

I don't judge by Democrat and Republican, by Left and Right, but foremost, by right and wrong.  I don't pick political affiliation by what the party did forty years ago, or one hundred and forty years ago.  I go by today.  I appreciate partisan history, but partisan current events are more relevant.  Isn't it ironic how today's Republicans want to claim Lincoln as their man, when Lincoln believed the power of chartered corporations would destroy America?

Quoting:
I believe everybody has the right to their belief.  I may not agree, but that is their right, and they have the right to speak up about it.  I do notice that the "other side" is much more willing to deny me my belief though.  I do not agree with "gay marriage"?  I must be a homophobe.  I am against "afirmitive action"?  I must be a raceist.End Quote

Again, I can't speak for hysterical PC types who react knee-jerk and call names.  I think such behavior is stifling coming from any side.  I myself have reservations about gay marriage, but I don't talk about it with those who let their emotions prejudice them on the issue.  I also think the "gay marriage" controversy, along with the "under God" controversy, is a red herring.

Quoting:
I do not attack others because of their views, but I will point out if I feel they are wrong.  And I do not attack the person, but the view.  I think another difference is that to a religious person, all things are "God given", even life.  To those Liberals that favor a Socialist stance, they see everything as justified by doctrine.  Their belief is enough to allow them to do anything they want.  It is the outcome that matters, not how they get there.  This is how Communism and "National Socialism" tried to achieve their goals.
End Quote

Dogma is dangerous whether it comes from the Bible, the Koran, or Karl Marx.  And that's my "dogma," if you will!
I too find our culture steeped in crassness, selfishness, and libertine obnoxiousness.  I don't think any of these things are the sole province of liberals.  I don't think, for instance, MTV is liberal.  MTV is libertine, and there's a difference.  MTV has no interest in human endeavors beyond sex, drugs, rock'n'roll, and conspicuous consumption.  This is closed-minded, in other words illiberal.  However, MTV's hedonistic doctrine is favored by their giant corporate sponsers, the executives of which probably vote Republican.

As far as "outcome" mattering more than ethics, I believe this piety is a stalking horse for right-wing attacks on our social service infrastructure.  I hear it most often in the phrase "outcome-based education."  Yeah, Democrats prefer "outcome-based education," whereas Republicans favor "income-based education." :D

Another pious platitude of the Right is "personal responsibility."  Why is it that conservatives only refer to "responsibility" when it has "personal" in front of it and they're talking about poor people?

Quoting:

 George W. Bush is President and I see no evidence that he even understands life outside his privileged world, nor do I see any evidence that he "gets" the central tenets of Christianity.
End Quote

As a Christian who voted for Bush, I totally agree. Bush has shown his true colors in his treatment of the poor and the elderly.

Quoting:
They have the right to freedom of speech, but they don't have the right to murder blacks. Some of them are murderers.
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"Warning!"
I know of the Klan in America, and was accquanted with a person, that was involved! They are Extremely Dangerous! Bunch ,Sociopaths, Psychotics,  Killers! They use Religion to "Sanctify" Their Agenda, A Bunch of Trigger Happy "Gun Smoke! AH! "Hypocrites" They try to lure you in with alot of Affirmative action BS! Whatever they can do, to get u in! After that! U might as well, Join the Cosa Nostra, U're better off! Than these "Lowlife's, They let in Catholics too! I know of a Catholic Imperial Wizard, War Hero! Their "Rabid!" with Hate! They must! Not Should? Be Put away! Immediately, along with  Aryan Nation! The Biggest Hypocrites in the World! Cowards, They use Brain Washing methods, and this Brother and "Yours In Christ!" And all that BS! to get u in, to make u think their a bunch of nice people, The worse White Mafia, Since Al Capone! But, Extremely worse! I'm a caucasian Male, and conservative Politically, Not anymore! The only thing I can suggest is That we somehow start a Coalition and get our Govt. to "Eradicate these SOB! ASAP! Brazil has a Klan there too! And Internationally too! Lets Bring down these Fanatics before it's too late! All of us! If u r An American, you must understand that these groups, Are against Freedom, And want to Destroy our Constitution, With the premise of Affirmative Action, And all that other Crap! Don't Trust them!

Their like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" Meaphorically! They want a high Quoto of members! and are waiting to Start a Race War! A Govt Coupe!

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"Warning!"
I know of the Klan in America, and was accquanted with a person, that was involved...End Quote

Wow...34 "!"'s in one paragraph.  Gotta be a record. :)

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Wow...34 "!"'s in one paragraph.  Gotta be a record. :)
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You actually counted all of them?  :o  ;)



Cat

Quoting:
someone mentioned Fox News?I think you mean FAUX News Channel!
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Yup, that's what I call it, too!
I think our guest was a bit of a crank.  Start talking Klan, and they pick up the scent!
I didn't bother reading the whole thing, but he's gotta work on his spelling, punctuation, and grammar.  Oh, and always keep an eye on that "there, their, they're" homonym.  We all goof that one now and again.

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You actually counted all of them?  :o  ;)



Cat
End Quote

Hey, it was a boring day at work. :)

Quoting:
http://www.wckkkk.com/index2.htmlThis is another Klan hatemongering website...another reason the Fed needs to DO SOMETHING TO GET RID OF THESE IDIOTS!!!
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Let me make it clear, I believe in the First Amendment and I do NOT NOT NOT support censorship!
Unless
The hatemongers are explicitly calling for imminent violent action.
We have become so nervous about terrorism that even some liberals would approve of censoring nasty things, such as the book "The Turner Diaries."  Even if a book or a website has instructions for making bombs, I still defend its right to exist.  Now, if it says YOU MUST build a bomb and DETONATE it in such-and-such a place, that's a different kettle of fish.

Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center have prosecuted several successful cases against the Klan and other hate groups, such as Tom Metzger's skinhead affiliation WAR (White Aryan Resistance) in the late '80s.  I recommend reading up on Dees on the web.  He's no saint himself, but his work has really taken the wind out of the sails of the hate groups he's targeted. I think this is a much better way to go than blanket PRIOR RESTRAINT by the federal government.

Besides, I think the alliance between big business and the U.S. government (ie. THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX) is a much greater threat to our lives and freedoms than any disparate bunch of raging rednecks.

Quoting:
http://www.wckkkk.com/index2.htmlThis is another Klan hatemongering website...another reason the Fed needs to DO SOMETHING TO GET RID OF THESE IDIOTS!!!
End Quote

There are thousands of them out there.  This is yet another one.  And trust me, I have looked at hundreds of them.

As far as I am concerned, as long as they do not advocate violence or illegal activities, I have no problem with them.  They have a 1st Ammendment right here in the US to spout out any kind of stupid nonsense they want to.

BTW, I loved reading how the Talmud is evil.  The amazing thing to me is when I did a search for some of those "quotes".  It seems that they only exist on raceist sites.  Not even Google could find a single one of those quotes on any non-raceist site.  Kinda makes a person think...

Quoting:
Let me make it clear, I believe in the First Amendment and I do NOT NOT NOT support censorship!
Unless
The hatemongers are explicitly calling for imminent violent action.
End Quote

I agree with you 100%!

Quoting:
We have become so nervous about terrorism that even some liberals would approve of censoring nasty things, such as the book "The Turner Diaries."  Even if a book or a website has instructions for making bombs, I still defend its right to exist.  
End Quote

I agree.  And don't forget, the worst terrorist event pre-9/11 was the Oaklahoma City bombing.  And that came totally out of The Turner Diaries.  Other then the location, it was just like it was protrayed in the book.

I read TTD several times, the first when I was in the military.  Back then, I thought "no way this could happen in the US".  Then 5 years later, it happened.

I have commented many times on The Turner Diaries.  One I had on Amazon even had to be removed because I was getting death threats because of it from neo-Nazi's.  I found it a disgusting and vile book, but also a good book to read to get to know the mindset of these mental midgets.

Quoting:
I think this is a much better way to go than blanket PRIOR RESTRAINT by the federal government.

Besides, I think the alliance between big business and the U.S. government (ie. THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX) is a much greater threat to our lives and freedoms than any disparate bunch of raging rednecks.
End Quote

I have no problem giving people like this grief.  I prefer to do it through education though, then by trying to attack them back.  That only fosters their feeling of isolation and exclusion.  I would rather see them brought back into mainstream America.

And this "military industrial complex", then who else should do projects for the government?  If not companies like Ford, GM, IBM, Colt, Northrup, then who?  Do we turn over the new Destroyer, Fighter Jet, or Jeep to some unknown company with no assets?  If not a big corporation, who will make these things?  And who will build the dams, highways, airports, etc?  I notice people complain about these things, but who else can do them?

And if you think Nazi's and Klukkers are all ignorant rednecks, you should check again.  A lot of the most recent cases were all by highly trained people, who were also highly intelligent.  About 10 years ago, Lancaster California (the home of "Skunkworks", B-1 and B-2 bombers and F-117 fighters)was a BIG recruiting ground for them.  A lot of people who worked building these planes got involved.  And the biggest local gang there is the "Nazi Low-Riders", a skinhead gang.  I know this because I lived in the area back then.

Quoting:

And this "military industrial complex", then who else should do projects for the government?  If not companies like Ford, GM, IBM, Colt, Northrup, then who?  Do we turn over the new Destroyer, Fighter Jet, or Jeep to some unknown company with no assets?  If not a big corporation, who will make these things?  And who will build the dams, highways, airports, etc?  I notice people complain about these things, but who else can do them?End Quote

No, I'm not advocating we get a mom & pop non-profit to build fighter jets (LOL), and I do believe we need to maintain strong armed forces.  I'm saying the price of freedom is eternal vigilence.  Americans are simply not aware of the degree to which oil companies, defense contractors, pharmaceutical firms, and other private interests influence our public policies.
We have the so-called conservative critics of "big government" such as Limbaugh, who make a show of running down politicians, pork, and the welfare state, but they don't admit what really makes "big government" so darn big--big business.
Johnny-come-lately-Stossel, who just boarded the government-bashing bandwagon ten years after it became chic, hasn't mentioned this as he rails about the rate at which government expanded in the 20th century.  
BTW, Kevin Phillips details at length the Bush family involvement in the M.I.C. starting in WWII in American Dynasty.
To keep it simple for now, I'll summarize:
1. It is profitable for big business to socialize science and privatize technology.
2. Big business is the opposite of the entrepeneurship lionized by our politicians.  The M.I.C. is a closed network and anti-competitive.
3. While pundits and politicians bemoan the cost of human services, the social welfare state is miniscule compared to the subsidies to big business, big science, and big agriculture.  Some of these subsidies are necessary for our civic well-being and national security BUT vast quantitiesare pork barrel favors.
4. So-called pro-business cheerleaders, such as The Club for Growth, will tell you that the mere 2% of Americans who farm represents efficiency.  I will tell you it represents unwise handing over of our natural resources to giant firms such as Archer Daniels Midland.  It is the reason our "heartland" is hemorrhaging population and its socal fabric is rotting away.
5. While the Limbaugh-led corporate media only hates the big government that hands tax money to poor people and tells rich guys they can't do stuff, my take on big government is quite the contrary.  Ours is a rich man's welfare state.
6. President Eisenhower gave us the phrase "Military Industrial Complex," no leftie-radical he.  Eisenhower meant we, the people, must not allow the gigantic corporations to control our government.  The people must control the government, and the government must not let private power be its master.  We, the people, and our government are failing on both counts.

Quoting:
And if you think Nazi's and Klukkers are all ignorant rednecks, you should check again.  A lot of the most recent cases were all by highly trained people, who were also highly intelligent.  About 10 years ago, Lancaster California (the home of "Skunkworks", B-1 and B-2 bombers and F-117 fighters)was a BIG recruiting ground for them.  A lot of people who worked building these planes got involved.  And the biggest local gang there is the "Nazi Low-Riders", a skinhead gang.  I know this because I lived in the area back then.
End Quote

I agree with you entirely here.  It would be foolish to think in terms of a "Bubba" stereotype.  The Klansmen who you see talking to reporters are dopes.  Those guys might, bully, brawl, and intimidate, but the real dangerous ones won't be caught on camera.  Timothy McVeigh (may he burn in hell forever) was not among the skinheads and Klansmen.  He wasn't up there with David Duke.  We didn't know his name until he achieved his wickedness.  McVeigh also came out of the U.S. military.  The armed forces have no intention of graduating terrorists, but they unintentionally provide a wonderful academy.

Quoting:
I agree with you entirely here.  It would be foolish to think in terms of a "Bubba" stereotype.  The Klansmen who you see talking to reporters are dopes.  Those guys might, bully, brawl, and intimidate, but the real dangerous ones won't be caught on camera.  Timothy McVeigh (may he burn in hell forever) was not among the skinheads and Klansmen.  He wasn't up there with David Duke.  We didn't know his name until he achieved his wickedness.  McVeigh also came out of the U.S. military.  The armed forces have no intention of graduating terrorists, but they unintentionally provide a wonderful academy.
End Quote

Actually, during the late 1970's through the late 1980's, a *LOT* of Nazi's joined the US Army.  And they often joined the Infantry, Airborn, or other elite units.

This was known, and for several reasons.  FOr one, it let the "next generation" get the training their fathers (Vietnam) and grandfathers (WWII and Korea) get.  It also let them get access to arms and munitions.  And because most of these bases were in the deep south (Georgia, N. Carolina, ALabama, etc) it was easy to maintain contacts with home.

One statistic I saw in 1987 was that most illegal arms siezed from KKK groups was stolen from the Army, mostly from the 82nd Airborn.  This caused huge change in how they handled ordinance back then.

This is yet another reason why I was glad I joined the Marines.  :)  Because of the stress on being a Marine (not being "Airborn" or "Ranger" or any other unit), it stresses unity.  I remember 2 roomies I had, one was a bubba from ALabama, the other a black kid from Baltimore.  They became such friends, that when "Lippy" found a KKK shirt in his drawer, he showed it to Jones.  Jones then proudly wore it around the barracks, totally shocking our Sergeant when he came through 20 minutes later.  After all, how often does a black kid from B'More go around wearing a shirt with a hooded Klansman on it?

I often wonder what happened to them both.  I am sure "Lippy" went home with a much changed on those who he was raised to see as "subhuman".  I hope his own children are being raised much better then he was.