Quoting:
Universalism, as I understand it, is the doctrine that through the atonement of Christ every single member of the human race will be "saved", regardless of whether they have trusted in Christ or rejected Him.

Scripture does not teach this. Christ never taught this.

Universalism can never be "Biblical".
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I am not sure what Universalism is, but if what you said it is true then it isn't biblical.

I am a Born Again Christian and belong to a bible following church.  We teach (from the bible) that salvation is a gift through faith and all you have to do is accept that gift.  If you reject it then you don't get it.

Quoting:


I am not sure what Universalism is, but if what you said it is true then it isn't biblical.

I am a Born Again Christian and belong to a bible following church.  We teach (from the bible) that salvation is a gift through faith and all you have to do is accept that gift.  If you reject it then you don't get it.
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There are many forms of universalism, but the basic doctrine is as I have described it. I do not believe it is one of the "essential doctrines" of the Christian faith, but I believe that it is a dangerous one nonetheless.

I agree with your assesment of salvation. It is a gift available to all who would trust in Christ. But if one refuses to trust in Christ, then salvation cannot be received. It sounds like you belong to a solid, doctrinally sound church.  :)

Quoting:


There are many forms of universalism, but the basic doctrine is as I have described it. I do not believe it is one of the "essential doctrines" of the Christian faith, but I believe that it is a dangerous one nonetheless.

I agree with your assesment of salvation. It is a gift available to all who would trust in Christ. But if one refuses to trust in Christ, then salvation cannot be received. It sounds like you belong to a solid, doctrinally sound church.  :)
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I do.  :)

Quoting:
Yes, but Jesus who is himself Jewish.
Would he understand why his own Jewish people are for the most part psychologically incapable of trusting him as Lord and Saviour because of
2,000 years of Persecution in Jesus name leading up to the Holocaust.
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There were multitudes of Jews in and before Jesus' time who believed in Him and trusted Him as Savior. There are multitudes of modern-day Jews who trust Jesus as their Savior. None of these are or were "psychologically incapable" of trusting in Christ.

Quoting:
My own opinion of who will be saved is this:

-If somebody treats others with kindness and respect
-If they live a moral, honest life
-If they help those weaker than them or who need help
-If they treat their family well, and raise their children to be good people

Then they will be saved.  How can we say that a Tibetan who may NEVER have even heard of Christianity will not be saved?   :-/ ... I say that God will save anyone who has led a charitable and moral life.

My $0.02 on the issue.
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Please don't take this personal LyricBoy, I want you to see something in your statements.

I know many criticize Christians as being arrogant because we claim to know the truth about salvation. We boldly state that Jesus is the only way to God, the only way to heaven. The truth is, we didn't make this stuff up. The way of salvation is plainly outlined in the Bible for anyone to read and believe. We make our claims based on this Word. You may accept this Word or reject it, that is up to you. No one can be forced to believe, although many misguided Christians have tried to the contrary.

When you make statements like "My own opinion of who will be saved..." and "I say that God will save anyone who...", aren't you setting yourself up as God? Are you not deciding in and of yourself how one gets to heaven? Is this not just as arrogant, or maybe moreso?

Please, I am not picking on you. I used to hold the very same beliefs that you do. I just want you to see that Christians base their beliefs on something outside themselves, not on the way we think things should be.

Quoting:

How can we say that a Tibetan who may NEVER have even heard of Christianity will not be saved?   :-/ End Quote

I am quite sure that there have been in the past whole races of people who never heard the Gospel or knew who Christ was, let alone what He did for them. The Bible teaches that God will extend mercy on these folks and will judge them fairly according to their knowledge of right and wrong.

The question is...is there anyone in the modern civilized world who has not heard the Gospel?

Quoting:The question is...is there anyone in the modern civilized world who has not heard the Gospel?End Quote

A great many people.

Quoting:


Please don't take this personal LyricBoy, I want you to see something in your statements.

I know many criticize Christians as being arrogant because we claim to know the truth about salvation. We boldly state that Jesus is the only way to God, the only way to heaven. The truth is, we didn't make this stuff up.

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And how do you know that the people who wrote the bible didn't make this stuff up? There's plenty of evidence that the gospels coudn't have been written by the apostles for many scientific reasons. Yet time and time again I am told by Christians that this is just "Satan trying to decieve me". Who's to say it's not the other way around? Were any of you there? Did you hear Christ speak these words? Have you ever read any other religions teachings? The Gospel of Thomas is the earliest dated scripture of the new testement there is and the Christian church will not allow it into the bible. Why? What is so offensive about the text. Could it be that it doesn't mention ressurection, and only contains teachings of a good soul named Jesus ? And what is so wrong with that notion? What if Jesus was just a good man trying to teach us good things about one another ?

No offense but personnally even tho the story of Christ is a compelling one, and tragic, it's only one of countless religions. It also happens to be the one that has been the cause of so much death in this world. Hitler killed in the name of Christ.

I don't mean these thoughts to be a personal attack, but I am currently trying to be converted by a Born Again and am quite offended by his arrogance, or ignorance, to truths in other matters. He wants me to be open minded, but won't be himself. He tells me that it is not enough to believe in Christ the way I choose, the way I interperet his teachings.  He has a letter from a group of ex co-workers who miss me that he has been 'holding onto' till he gets to have another bible study with me. Nice choice for him to make on their behalf.

Touchy subject so I felt I needed to vent when I read that line "We didn't make this stuff up" . Well...neither do scientists.

Quoting:

We could argue for years on whether there is evidence for the Bible. One camp says there is tons of evidence for, the other camp says there is tons of evidence against. Personally, I think both camps are biased and truly believe that they are right.
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I agree with you 100%. You already know that, though...don't ya? :)

Curtis, not all Christians are like that.  Most of us understand that even though we want everyone to see the truth, pushing will drive people away.

Quoting:
No offense taken CurtisLowe. (Are you a Skynyrd fan?  ;D)End Quote

could be ;) .

Quoting:We could argue for years on whether there is evidence for the Bible. One camp says there is tons of evidence for, the other camp says there is tons of evidence against. End Quote

I believe that both camps are right to some degree. There is lots of evidence that has come to light regarding mass world wide flooding (tho this was not a strictly Old Testament event, there are cultures world wide who have written this tale, mnany thousands of years before the tale of Noah.). Most recently was the find of a tomb in Jerusalem bearing the name Caiaphus(sp?) ( the first historical evidence that he may have existed.) . I don't discount that some of the tales in the bible are true, just that there are many misinterpretations. Alot having to do with the translation from the Aramaic and Greek to words that we have no real term for today so they just stuck in the closest thing. And those small changes can dramatically change the message of a story. And again it doesn't help the gospels that the oldest texts they are derived from are dated anywhere from 100-200 years after Jesus's deat. The gospel of Thomas however can be dated within 25-50 years. It is important to note that carbon dating, while accurate, has a plus or minus of 80. In either case Thomas could by most scholars accounts be an actual eyewitness text as to the life of Jesus.

So I choose to take both lessons from the bible, archeological evidence and interperet it on my own.

Quoting:I am sorry you are being hounded by a rabid Christian. Next time he bothers you, just tell him "Shake the dust off your feet and get out of here!!". He should understand.  ;D
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Lol...he's not really hounding me, he just won't open his mind to ALL possibilities. I am fairly certain in my soul there is some type of God, but when it all comes down, it's up to God when we and if we get to him. I try to live my life the best I can, try my best not to do things I know aren't right.I fail sometime. I even pray. I pray that any evil or disease that comes to any person be brought onto me if at all possible so that there will be one less suffering in the world. Who knows maybe I'm an empath(a person with the ability to absorb the suffering of others...theoretically)...lol, cuz I'm not in a grave yet ;) .

All I know is that the after life is more often than not dwelled on more than the here and now. Many religions such as Buddhism teach similar messages. The Native American Indians are a great lesson to how we can be one with the environment. The story of Jesus (and other lessons in the bible)  tells us lots of things that we could do in the here and now to make our world and our relationship with each other a better one. That's the Jesus I choose to believe in. God will choose what do do with me later.

Peace.

Quoting:

When you make statements like "My own opinion of who will be saved..." and "I say that God will save anyone who...", aren't you setting yourself up as God? Are you not deciding in and of yourself how one gets to heaven?
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No more than those who claim that their flavour of Christianity is the only way.

Quoting:

I think it's because we finite humans try to comprehend our Infinite creator who is Revealed in the Bible.

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Good point, CoolestDude.

It is FUTILE trying to "prove" the Bible because, in the end, it is all about faith.  If one could scientifically "prove" the Bible's accounts it would be a matter of science and not of faith.

All will be revealed in heaven.  :D

Quoting:


I agree with you 100%. You already know that, though...don't ya? :)

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Yes...yes I do...Thanks Dag!

Quoting:

Personally I wonder, did Jesus not Preach Universalism, but was St.Paul more of a Universalist??End Quote

No, Andrew, according to the Bible, neither one preached universalism. Repeating:

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"He that believeth on Him (Christ) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"Whosoever therefore shall confess Me (Christ) before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."  

Quoting:
I mean wouldn't it be cool, awesome that all human beings that ever lived would be in Heaven, and even the most mortal of enemies on Earth, would be Friends with Eachother, and love eachother as fellow human beings and creations of God.

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What would be the point of Heaven, then?  Isn't Heaven a place to aspire to end up for eternity?  Are you now saying that even a sinner should go to heaven?  What would be the point of NOT sinning if you knew you would end up in Heaven anyway?

Quoting:


What would be the point of Heaven, then?  Isn't Heaven a place to aspire to end up for eternity?  Are you now saying that even a sinner should go to heaven?  What would be the point of NOT sinning if you knew you would end up in Heaven anyway?
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Actually thats not so far from what Christians believe. According to Christianity, as long as you accept that Jesus Christ dies on the cross to save you from your sins, you are going to 'heaven' regardless of how much you sin. Here's the theory as I understand it .

Before Christ, blood sacrifices were required by God to absolve man of his sins. What God needs with a blood sacrifice one can only wonder. Jesus was sent to give his life on the cross as the ultimate blood sacrifice , so that man would no longer have to do blood sacrifices to be absolved. Now I can't say ALL Christians take it too the extreme , but I have met an awful lot who seem to think that this gives them carte blanche on sinning as long as they repent.


I brought up a pretty reasonable question to this Born Again who was trying to 'save me' : I have a friend who is a very good man. The best of people. One who would and does go out of his way to help people in need, even if it means himself may be put out in any way. Now Carl is just a very spiritual person who has no organized religion . Now, on the flip side we have Adolph Hitler . He was a Christian, or claimed himself to be. I saked my 'teacher', who is going to 'heaven' and who is going to 'hell' ?

He answered Hitler heaven, and Carl hell.

Yuh, that makes sense.

Quoting:



Actually thats not so far from what Christians believe. According to Christianity, as long as you accept that Jesus Christ dies on the cross to save you from your sins, you are going to 'heaven' regardless of how much you sin. Here's the theory as I understand it .

Before Christ, blood sacrifices were required by God to absolve man of his sins. What God needs with a blood sacrifice one can only wonder. Jesus was sent to give his life on the cross as the ultimate blood sacrifice , so that man would no longer have to do blood sacrifices to be absolved. Now I can't say ALL Christians take it too the extreme , but I have met an awful lot who seem to think that this gives them carte blanche on sinning as long as they repent.


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I believe you're right.  Maybe I misunderstood what he was saying.  I took it to mean that EVERYONE, regardless of their actions would make it to heaven.  Meaning, that there was nothing you had to do (or not do) to get there.  And, as I was raised Catholic, I was taught that there are much stricter "guidelines" on how to get to Heaven.  Repentance alone won't do it.  I'm not sure if that's still what they are teaching, but that's what I was taught many moons ago.

Personally, I believe that as long as I live a good life, I will make it to Heaven.  I've been told by some Christians that I'm going south because "I haven't accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior" and that my baptism as an infant doesn't count.  Oh, and I ate a ham sandwich on a Friday during Lent ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D :P

Quoting:

 Oh, and I ate a ham sandwich on a Friday during Lent ;) ;D ;) ;D ;) ;D :P
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http://smile.achost.co.uk/s/contrib/blackeye/lol.gif

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif

Quoting:
Actually thats not so far from what Christians believe. According to Christianity, as long as you accept that Jesus Christ dies on the cross to save you from your sins, you are going to 'heaven' regardless of how much you sin.
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Anyone who believes that faith in Christ gives you a license to sin is dead wrong.

Anyone who claims to be born again and yet continues in habitual, unrepentant sin is lying to himself, and dead wrong.

Repentance does not just mean saying "I'm sorry for my sin...".
Actual repentance means a 180 degree turn from old, sinful habits. If I am an habitual liar, then when I repent of lying I strive (with God's help) to never lie again. Do I slip up sometimes? Yes, I do. No one is perfect. But if I continue to lie at the drop of a hat with no real remorse for my lying, then I have not truly repented, and I will not receive God's forgiveness.

Repentance is much, much more than lip-service.

Quoting:
I brought up a pretty reasonable question to this Born Again who was trying to 'save me' : I have a friend who is a very good man. The best of people. One who would and does go out of his way to help people in need, even if it means himself may be put out in any way. Now Carl is just a very spiritual person who has no organized religion . Now, on the flip side we have Adolph Hitler . He was a Christian, or claimed himself to be. I saked my 'teacher', who is going to 'heaven' and who is going to 'hell' ?

He answered Hitler heaven, and Carl hell.

Yuh, that makes sense.

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C'mon, CurtisLowe...do you really believe that Hitler was a Christian?

I find it amusing that you question the authenticity of the Bible, yet you take the statement "Hitler was a Christian, or claimed to be" without nary a question. Please be advised that not all who say they are Christians are.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  

Quoting:
Universalism is also called "The Larger Hope"
Could it be that St.Paul was more of a Universalist than Jesus?
End Quote

Quoting:Personally I wonder, did Jesus not Preach Universalism, but was St.Paul more of a Universalist??End Quote

Echo....Echo.....echo....This was already discussed earlier!!!!! There must be something about repeating yourself you like :D

Quoting:Call me a Pessimist, but their is NO future for this World,
Things in America and Worldwide are going to get MUCH WORSE before they get better
My understanding of Bible Prophecy, is that the Nations of the World will come against Israel, but God will Protect Israel,
and the 2nd coming will happen.
It's hard to imagine, to picture the 2nd coming.
But ultimately I pray God will eliminate suffering End Quote

This was also mentioned in another topic too!!! :)

Whether or not Universalism is true, I think it's true for the people who believe in it!  If you do not then you won't.  The same goes for Christianity and any other religion.  They are all true if you believe!!! If you do not then it won't be true for you!

Quoting:
I don't think Andrew reads, I think he just posts... :P
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Hey ive been watching these boards for a while and finally registered.  I think most of Andrew-Coolest-Dude's posts rock.

Quoting:
I ordered the book, "Universal Salvation" the current debate, but still it hasn't arrived,
I hate it when that happens.
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I ordered a book once...It had lots of words and a pretty cover.