Quoting:
I makes me almost want to have IQ tests before people can have kids.  That way stupid people will not do things to endanger the lives of their own or other children.
End Quote

You know, some people would blame the gun, but you correctly see that it was the irresponsible actions of the gun owner that caused this horrible tragedy.  I applaud you for that.  Now, if somebody hurts themselves as a result of, oh I don't know, say, illicit drug usage, would you be able to place the blame on the person responsible, or would you blame the drugs?  Just wondering.

Quoting:
http://www.msnbc.com/local/knbc/a1907064.asp?vts=12520031313

I read that story, and was greatly saddened.  However, I think that the father who owned the gun should be shot.

What are parents thinking of, when they leave guns and ammunition where kids can reach them, then leave a 14 and a 12 year old boy alone in a house unsupervised?

I makes me almost want to have IQ tests before people can have kids.  That way stupid people will not do things to endanger the lives of their own or other children.

But my heart and prayers go out to the family of the boy that was killed.  A real tragedy.
End Quote

When I was 12 I was well-trained in guns and gun safety.  Any 12-year-old who points a gun at anyone needs an IQ test of his own.

Yes, perhaps the parents should have kept the guns locked up, especially since Junior was not too bright.  But a 12 year old is not a 12 MONTH old, and is well past the age of reason.

The kid is of primary fault here.  The parents are of secondary fault.

Quoting:


When I was 12 I was well-trained in guns and gun safety.  Any 12-year-old who points a gun at anyone needs an IQ test of his own.

Yes, perhaps the parents should have kept the guns locked up, especially since Junior was not too bright.  But a 12 year old is not a 12 MONTH old, and is well past the age of reason.

The kid is of primary fault here.  The parents are of secondary fault.
End Quote

:o :oI agree with that,although the parents still should have locked it up siomply because the gun didn't belong to the kid and he had no business using it.But there's an age where kids should be responsible for wjhat they do.In the Bay Area,school fires have been rampant,and in one case the culprits were 13 and 14 years old.Legally,the parents will be probable be responsible for paying for the damage9several million dollars),byt the kids were old enough to know what they were doing and htere should be a way to garnish their wages or something when they're old enough to work.Cheeers!

Quoting:
When I was 12 I was well-trained in guns and gun safety.  Any 12-year-old who points a gun at anyone needs an IQ test of his own.
End Quote

I kind of have to agree there.  WHen I lived in Idaho, we *ALL* had firearm safety classes, it was a requirement.  A representative of the NRA came in (free of charge I might add) and gave 5 1 hour classes to all 7th grade students.  This was in a public school, and was very well done.

There were no guns in the class, but they went through how to carry them safely, how to unload them, and how to leave them alone if they are not ours.  And since my father was a long time hunter and sport shooter, I knew that if I wanted to go shooting, I just had to ask him.  If he had ever caught me with the gun without permission, I could count on never goiing out with him again.

Quoting:
Yes, perhaps the parents should have kept the guns locked up, especially since Junior was not too bright.  But a 12 year old is not a 12 MONTH old, and is well past the age of reason.

The kid is of primary fault here.  The parents are of secondary fault.
End Quote

Actually, he SHOULD have, unless his kid was responsible.  It was the father of the 14 year old that owned the gun, and the 14 year old shot the 12 year old.  My guns were always out of the reach of kids AND hidden, with a trigger lock.  And the ammunition was never stored with the guns themselves.  Those are basic rules taught in any NRA safety course.

If you have kids, I encourage you to have them attend an NRA gun safety course, even if you do not own a gun.  This will teach them the basics, in case they ever do end up with one in their hands like these two did.

Quoting:
Nobody should ever own a gun. Period. That's all there is to it. It's just that Americans have become so paranoid that they are using their constitutional right to bear arms (which shouldn't even be there anymore because it's useless) more than ever. Guns are simply not necessary. If you want protection, install an alarm system in your home. Protection on the streets? Pepper spray, mace (if either is legal), your keys between two fingers, or simple knowledge of self defence will do the trick..

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

Why shouldn't I have a gun?  It is my constitutional right.  I am a peace loving citizen, and I enjoy taking my .50 caliber rifle out to do some long range (1000-yard) shooting.  That is my "sporting" firearm.

For home protection I have a short-barrel semiauto shotgun.  For intruders, varmints, and what-not.

I can guarantee you that the thugs of the world will kill each other with rocks, cars, knives, or whatever they can find, so the law-abiding citizens may as well protect themselves.

And as for self defense classes, they are great.  But what happens when a guy as big as Nathaniel Jones accosts you?  Heck, it two cops several minutes with night sticks to subdue him.

Home alarm systems are poor.  There are typically 10-20 false alarms for every real situation, so they are ignored.  Just like those car alarms.

As a law-abiding American, you will only take my gun by prying it out of my cold, dead hand.

Quoting:
Why shouldn't I have a gun?  It is my constitutional right.End Quote

 

And this "constitutional right" has been around for how long? 200-300 years? Don't you think it's just a bit outdated? Have you ever thought of why it's your constitutional right?

Quoting:I am a peace loving citizen, and I enjoy taking my .50 caliber rifle out to do some long range (1000-yard) shooting.  That is my "sporting" firearm.End Quote

These are the actions of a "peace loving citizen?" Give me a break.

Quoting:For home protection I have a short-barrel semiauto shotgun.  For intruders, varmints, and what-not.End Quote

Again, the actions of a "peace loving citizen" I suppose. Anyone who carries a gun, especially a gun of that type for that purpose, has no regard for peace.

Quoting:I can guarantee you that the thugs of the world will kill each other with rocks, cars, knives, or whatever they can find, so the law-abiding citizens may as well protect themselves.End Quote

Yes, with rocks, cars, knives, or whatever they can find. Much less potential for disaster than a gun.

Quoting:And as for self defense classes, they are great.  But what happens when a guy as big as Nathaniel Jones accosts you?  Heck, it two cops several minutes with night sticks to subdue him.End Quote

And the problem with that is...? He died anyway! They didn't need a gun to do that! Yes, a gun would have gotten the job done a lot quicker, but he'd still be another person of colour killed at the hands of white police officers. And for what? Resisting arrest? Oooo...that's a great reason to kill someone! If you know what you're doing, there's nothing saying you can't defend yourself against someone bigger than you through simple self defence methods.

Quoting:As a law-abiding American, you will only take my gun by prying it out of my cold, dead hand.End Quote

Do you hunt for sport? If you do, you murder animals for fun. That doesn't make you a "law abiding American," that makes you a killer. (And please, let's not get on an "animals are lesser beings than humans" thing. That's a whole other topic. Animals are living creatures just like humans are and deserve the same respect. That's all I'm going to say on that.)

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
Secondly, I do not see the "sport" in shooting wildlife.  My idea of "sport" would be a man hunting a deer via hand-to-hoof combat, because the playing field would be much more fair.
End Quote

Okay, but I want antlers too ;)

I like what Claude Prez said in another thread about drugs...to paraphrase, guns shouldn't be outlawed just because some people think they're bad.  People have to take some individual responsibility in their actions.

Or, from "UHF":

"Guns don't kill people...*I* do."

;D

Quoting:


Okay, but I want antlers too ;)

I like what Claude Prez said in another thread about drugs...to paraphrase, guns shouldn't be outlawed just because some people think they're bad.  People have to take some individual responsibility in their actions.

Or, from "UHF":

"Guns don't kill people...*I* do."

;D
End Quote

;D;D lmao

Quoting:Do you hunt for sport? If you do, you murder animals for fun. That doesn't make you a "law abiding American," that makes you a killer.End Quote

well.

You struck a chord on that one.

I hunt frequently, and yes I love it.  I own several models of guns, rifles, shotguns, hand guns, and yes, I'm very responsible with them.  I have been through training classes as a youngster and they are all locked up when not in use.  I enjoy going out in the woods in the early winter mornings, and waiting for a deer.  Very peaceful and relaxing.  And when I see one in range, its bye bye time for Bambi. ;)  Bambi finds his way to our table, and then our tummies.  Around here, the deer population is so out of control, hunting is encouraged to control the overpopulation of them.  

Quoting:(And please, let's not get on an "animals are lesser beings than humans" thing. That's a whole other topic. End Quote

...well, you did sort of bring it up.

Quoting:Animals are living creatures just like humans are and deserve the same respect. That's all I'm going to say on that.)End Quote

next time that fly or mosquito is buzzing around your head and bothering the heck out of you, I dare you to not smash it to smithereens.  After all, they are animals. ;)


Don't get me wrong. I love animals.  Especially with BBQ sauce. ;D


(sorry to get off topic)

Quoting:
I hunt frequently, and yes I love it.  I own several models of guns, rifles, shotguns, hand guns, and yes, I'm very responsible with them.  I have been through training classes as a youngster and they are all locked up when not in use.  I enjoy going out in the woods in the early winter mornings, and waiting for a deer.  Very peaceful and relaxing.  And when I see one in range, its bye bye time for Bambi. ;)  Bambi finds his way to our table, and then our tummies.  Around here, the deer population is so out of control, hunting is encouraged to control the overpopulation of them. End Quote

So you're a well-trained, responsible animal murderer then. :P

Quoting:...well, you did sort of bring it up.End Quote

Because if I didn't, someone else would have. They would have said that we humans are above our animal counterparts and so, who cares if they die? Humans are animals too, so we're on an even keel.

Quoting:next time that fly or mosquito is buzzing around your head and bothering the heck out of you, I dare you to not smash it to smithereens.  After all, they are animals. ;)End Quote

Indeed they are, and I don't kill them, although the temptation is there. I hate spiders, but they just get captured and tossed out the door, just like flies, etc. I've been lucky with mosquitoes lately, even though I live in the mosquito capital of the world and wear dark clothing. I just shoo them away. :D

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
So you're a well-trained, responsible animal murderer then. :P
End Quote

Have you ever been driving down a country road at night, and suddenly found a deer in your broken windshield?  I have, and you know what, I wasn't put on trial for murder. ;)


We're eating venison chili tomorrow for a family dinner.  Guess that makes us cannibals. ::)

Quoting:
Have you ever been driving down a country road at night, and suddenly found a deer in your broken windshield?  I have, and you know what, I wasn't put on trial for murder. ;)End Quote

Did you intentionally hit that deer? I understand that accidents do happen, but if it were me, I would have tried my hardest to swerve to miss it. :)

Quoting:We're eating venison chili tomorrow for a family dinner.  Guess that makes us cannibals. ::)
End Quote

In a manner of speaking...:D ;) Now let's get back on topic. :) Sorry for diverting the subject.

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
Did you intentionally hit that deer? I understand that accidents do happen, but if it were me, I would have tried my hardest to swerve to miss it. :)
End Quote

Actually, AAA tells us to either brake completely or flash the headlights on and off very quickly.  Swerving means YOU will be toast instead of the deer :P

Quoting:
Actually, AAA tells us to either brake completely or flash the headlights on and off very quickly.  Swerving means YOU will be toast instead of the deer :P
End Quote

...especially if the road is covered in ice and snow.

Sorry, but if its a choice between swerving and slamming into a tree, or offing a deer.  Sorry, the deer's gonna get it. :)  The flea-bag even made my insurance premium go up. >:(

Quoting:
You know, some people would blame the gun, but you correctly see that it was the irresponsible actions of the gun owner that caused this horrible tragedy.  I applaud you for that.  Now, if somebody hurts themselves as a result of, oh I don't know, say, illicit drug usage, would you be able to place the blame on the person responsible, or would you blame the drugs?  Just wondering.
End Quote

Talk about a one track mind . . .  ::)

As much as I have the views of Absolutely Vile, I totally agree it was the irresponsible actions of the gun owner. My answer to your 'rhetorical' question on drugs is that the users business is his own, when the person starts to peddle drugs or doesn't care about other people's health then it is a problem.

As for animals, I eat meat so I must be condoning killing animals for food but to kill them for sport - that's not nice.

Quoting:


Talk about a one track mind . . .  ::)

As much as I have the views of Absolutely Vile, I totally agree it was the irresponsible actions of the gun owner. My answer to your 'rhetorical' question on drugs is that the users business is his own, when the person starts to peddle drugs or doesn't care about other people's health then it is a problem.

As for animals, I eat meat so I must be condoning killing animals for food but to kill them for sport - that's not nice.
End Quote

So if I'm reading this correctly, you feel that it's okay for somebody to *use* drugs, because that's their own business.  But it's not okay for someone else to sell them the drugs.  Is that correct?  I don't get why that's anyone else's business but the two of them, assuming they're adults.  Also, do you really think it's necessary to require people to care about the health of people they sell things to?  Aren't adults capable of caring about their own health?  For example, I love chocolate, even though it's bad for me.  I spent ninety long minutes in a dentist's chair this week largely because of my sweet tooth.  It cost me a fortune and it was extremely unpleasant (they were playing Rod Stewart music).  Yet I'm somehow not annoyed that my government so far hasn't seen fit to protect me from the sinister M&M/Mars company which has shown nothing but blatant disregard for my physical well-being my entire life.  There are people who seriously think they should pretend to care about me, but hopefully most people will eventually realize that:

1.  There is no limit to the number of things that can be considered "potentially hazardous".

2.  There is no limit to the appetite of bureaucracy.  Despite any government organization's stated goals, the real purpose of any bureaucracy is to perpetuate itself and grow.  It's not some sinister conspiracy thing; it's just perfectly natural that the people involved are self-interested.  

3.  Without limiting in principle the things you ask your government to do (this is what the US Constitution is for), it will grow until the money runs out and swarms of locusts run o'er the land (or something).

I do have a one-track mind, but it's not really about drugs at all.  It's about freedom, responsibility, and the unwillingness of my neighbors to see the connection.  Drugs and guns just happen to be my favorite ways to talk about it because I've never heard anyone who favors the drug war or gun control answer the principle argument.  Their point always boils down to the fact that they just don't like them.

Quoting:


well.

You struck a chord on that one.

I hunt frequently, and yes I love it.  I own several models of guns, rifles, shotguns, hand guns, and yes, I'm very responsible with them.  I have been through training classes as a youngster and they are all locked up when not in use.  I enjoy going out in the woods in the early winter mornings, and waiting for a deer.  Very peaceful and relaxing.  And when I see one in range, its bye bye time for Bambi. ;)  Bambi finds his way to our table, and then our tummies.  Around here, the deer population is so out of control, hunting is encouraged to control the overpopulation of them.  

End Quote

Same here.  My babysitter's husband hunts alot.  He has trophy heads all over his house (kinda freaky) and they eat the meat.  They take their guns apart and store the different parts in different safes and the ammo totally elsewhere.  I think they have the right to own guns.  Just because some don't like them doesn't mean no one has the right to own one.

Quoting:
Same here.  My babysitter's husband hunts alot.  He has trophy heads all over his house (kinda freaky) and they eat the meat.  They take their guns apart and store the different parts in different safes and the ammo totally elsewhere.  I think they have the right to own guns.  Just because some don't like them doesn't mean no one has the right to own one.
End Quote

Exactly.

I'm sick of some people labeling responsible gun-owners and hunters as "killers". ::)

No, I don't think I could ever use them on a person.  I know they are here if I ever had to protect us, but still, it would be a really really hard decision to make to kill a man.  

However, wild animals are not people.  They are wild animals.  And as long as we have the right, however old that right is Absolutely Vile, I will continue to use it.  

Personally, I don't have any trophy heads or anything of the sort, as I don't hunt for the pride of it all.  We eat what we kill, and enjoy every bite. :)

Quoting:
Y'know...

You'd think that with all the guns you guys have in America, it would be the safest place in the world to live in. But which country has the most murders per capita (or at least one of the most)? THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! You call that safe? I'm sorry, but if I lived in a place where it was your God-given right to carry a gun and you could just walk into your local Wal-Mart and buy one, I'd be really scared. (By the way, I don't know if you can do that anymore, but I heard you could.) I'd be afraid of walking down the street past the wrong person who might open fire in my general direction because it's his (or her) constitutional right to own a gun. And of course, if you own a gun, you're going to use it, right?  Yes, there's such a thing as a "responsible gun owner." You're responsible for your own actions when you (mis)use it.

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

The murder rate has a lot more to do with all the psychos we have in the "Melting Pot of the World" than just the gun problem, I can assure you of that.

Quoting:
Y'know...

You'd think that with all the guns you guys have in America, it would be the safest place in the world to live in. But which country has the most murders per capita (or at least one of the most)? THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!! You call that safe? I'm sorry, but if I lived in a place where it was your God-given right to carry a gun and you could just walk into your local Wal-Mart and buy one, I'd be really scared. (By the way, I don't know if you can do that anymore, but I heard you could.) I'd be afraid of walking down the street past the wrong person who might open fire in my general direction because it's his (or her) constitutional right to own a gun. And of course, if you own a gun, you're going to use it, right?  Yes, there's such a thing as a "responsible gun owner." You're responsible for your own actions when you (mis)use it.

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

Well, thats the common misconception of America.

Those outside think everyone is walking around with a gun and will open fire if they feel like it.  Thats not only just plain stupid, but its assenine (pardone my french).


Yes, there are people who misuse guns.  But you know what, theres a lot more who don't.  

And why are you scared?  I've walked through some of the most "murderous" cities in America at night, alone, and you know what, I wasn't scared of being shot with a gun.  I was more scared of being mugged by a guy with a simple knife.  (just a tip, most people arent going to just shoot you out on the street for no reason, its to loud and draws attention.  Just common sense. ;)  The choice weapon for most inner-city muggers is knives.  No noise. ;).  So what, we outlaw knives now? ::)

Quoting:


The murder rate has a lot more to do with all the psychos we have in the "Melting Pot of the World" than just the gun problem, I can assure you of that.
End Quote

So it's the foreigners' fault, is it? The people who were not born and raised in America. Let me remind you of something:

The person responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing was a white American. Also, every serial killer I can think of are all white Americans: Jeff Dahmer, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples but I just can't think of them right now.

So don't tell me that red-blooded, true-blue Americans can do no wrong. Canada and the UK both have hugely diversified populations, yet not nearly the murder rate per capita the States has. Is there something different about the people who immigrate to the United States than the ones who immigrate to Canada or the UK? I don't think so. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It's the people themselves. Someone of one ethnicity is no more likely to kill someone as someone of any other ethnicity.

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:Let me remind you of something:

The person responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing was a white American. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples but I just can't think of them right now.End Quote

Oh wow, so your basing your argument on the fact that a freak kid decided to blow up a building, and he happened to be American? ::)

I've heard it all now.

This kid had serious issues.  He is not the typical American.  I mean, I'm American, and have never had the urge to blow up a building and kill 100's of people.

You are generalizing to the extreme, and its taking a lot of credibilty out of your argument.

Quoting:


Oh wow, so your basing your argument on the fact that a freak kid decided to blow up a building, and he happened to be American? ::)

I've heard it all now.

This kid had serious issues.  He is not the typical American.  I mean, I'm American, and have never had the urge to blow up a building and kill 100's of people.

You are generalizing to the extreme, and its taking a lot of credibilty out of your argument.
End Quote

I was replying to someone who stated that the murder rate can be blamed on the psychos in the melting pot of the world, which I took to mean foreigners. If I've missed the point in that, then I sincerely apologise. That was just what I got out of that statement. My point was that red-blooded, true-blue Americans can do the same things as any foreigner can.

I never said that all Americans were murderous savages. Of course they're not. Not all of them. Some of them, yes...even those that were born there!

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:I was replying to someone who stated that the murder rate can be blamed on the psychos in the melting pot of the world, which I took to mean foreigners. If I've missed the point in that, then I sincerely apologise. That was just what I got out of that statement. End Quote

Actually, I think he was referring to psychos in general, not just foreigners.  There are psychos of every nationality, in every country (and yes, even Canada ;) ).  

And the "Melting Pot of the World", well, thats just what America is referred to as because everyone and their brother seems to find their way here.  

Quoting:I never said that all Americans were murderous savages. Of course they're not. Not all of them. Some of them, yes...even those that were born there!End Quote

Again, same goes for every country around the world, not just us evil gun-owning murderous savage Americans.  (and yes again, even Canada ;))

Quoting:


So it's the foreigners' fault, is it? The people who were not born and raised in America. Let me remind you of something:

The person responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing was a white American. Also, every serial killer I can think of are all white Americans: Jeff Dahmer, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, etc. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples but I just can't think of them right now.

So don't tell me that red-blooded, true-blue Americans can do no wrong. Canada and the UK both have hugely diversified populations, yet not nearly the murder rate per capita the States has. Is there something different about the people who immigrate to the United States than the ones who immigrate to Canada or the UK? I don't think so. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. It's the people themselves. Someone of one ethnicity is no more likely to kill someone as someone of any other ethnicity.

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

Vile,

There is "some" truth in your post...

Serial Killers

In fact, the profile of the typical serial killer is that of a WHITE man, in late 20's, 30's, or 40's.  I am only aware of two black serial killers, one being Wayne Williams in Atlanta (the Atlanta child murders).  

The other was Eugene Britt, a completely worthless piece of human trash and degradation who raped and murdered 7 women and children, including the beautiful daughter of a friend of mine.  :'(  He is on trial for 6 other murders (that he has confessed to) and if he gets the death penalty I will personally volunteer to throw the switch. >:(  He is now trying to dodge the death penalty by claiming to be retarded.  >:(

Nevertheless, serial killers are overwhelmingly WHITE males, even in disproportion to the percentage of whites in the population.

Note that John Muhammed and that John Lee Malvo are "spree killers" and not "serial killers".  Spree killers are more ethnically balanced.


Murder in general

There are HUGE ethnic discrepancies in murder, at least in the United States.

-The black murder rate is 3-4 times the white murder rate.

-Statistically speaking, races/ethnicities murder within themselves.  That is, whites tend to murder whites, blacks mainly kill blacks, hsipanics kill each other, and so on.

-(i.e., I am not as worried about a black guy killing me as I am a white guy since my chances are much higher I'd get wasted by a white guy.  If I were black I'd be more worried that a brother would off me.)

...So if we look JUST at within-race murder rates, there is an ENORMOUS discrepancy amongst the various races.  Crime is definitely NOT color blind with respect to general murder.  :D

Quoting:


So it's the foreigners' fault, is it? The people who were not born and raised in America. Let me remind you of something:


Absolutely Vile
End Quote

Ok, I know I am not Rice, and he has probably already defended himself, but this bugged me.  Rice is not implying that it is foreigners.  He would be the last one to lay the blame on someone from another country.  In case you didn't know, he is a naturalized citizen himself.  I think he was referring to the psychos, plain and simple.

Quoting:So if I'm reading this correctly, you feel that it's okay for somebody to *use* drugs, because that's their own business.  But it's not okay for someone else to sell them the drugs.  Is that correct?  I don't get why that's anyone else's business but the two of them, assuming they're adults. End Quote

I suppose in retrospect you are right but that doesn't mean it is right. There is nothing safe and sound regarding the use of drugs but I understand your principles.

Quoting:Also, do you really think it's necessary to require people to care about the health of people they sell things to?  Aren't adults capable of caring about their own health?  
End Quote

If you knew something was, without question not potentially, dangerous to someone would you sell it to them? I'm not talking about cars but say cars without brakes - knowing they are going to cause deaths. Traders in general (I suppose drug dealers would come under that description) should have some, not all, responsibilty for what they are selling. If drug dealers had a conscious they wouldn't be in the drug-dealing trade in the first place I suppose.

Quoting:For example, I love chocolate, even though it's bad for me.  I spent ninety long minutes in a dentist's chair this week largely because of my sweet tooth.  It cost me a fortune and it was extremely unpleasant (they were playing Rod Stewart music).  Yet I'm somehow not annoyed that my government so far hasn't seen fit to protect me from the sinister M&M/Mars company which has shown nothing but blatant disregard for my physical well-being my entire life.  There are people who seriously think they should pretend to care about me, but hopefully most people will eventually realize that:End Quote

I appreciate your pain (I suppose Rod Stewart doesn't help). I had four wisdom teeth out a few months back and it was one of the most painful things I have ever endured.

Quoting:1.  There is no limit to the number of things that can be considered "potentially hazardous".End Quote

Maybe. But should that be justification for using guns and drugs?

Quoting:2.  There is no limit to the appetite of bureaucracy.  Despite any government organization's stated goals, the real purpose of any bureaucracy is to perpetuate itself and grow.  It's not some sinister conspiracy thing; it's just perfectly natural that the people involved are self-interested.
End Quote

Sorry are you bringing up somebody else's point because I never brought up beaurocracy? I'm not fond of it myself.

Quoting:Without limiting in principle the things you ask your government to do (this is what the US Constitution is for), it will grow until the money runs out and swarms of locusts run o'er the land (or something).End Quote

I'm sorry you've lost me here . . .

Quoting:I do have a one-track mind, but it's not really about drugs at all.  It's about freedom, responsibility, and the unwillingness of my neighbors to see the connection.  Drugs and guns just happen to be my favorite ways to talk about it because I've never heard anyone who favors the drug war or gun control answer the principle argument.  Their point always boils down to the fact that they just don't like them.End Quote

Claude, I have a certain amount of ignorance. I am the first to admit this. I don't like politics and I am not concerned about constitutional rights (do they affect Britain?) I see things in a cause and effect kind of way, maybe a bit too black and white for some but I'm not an extremist.

I have no problem with your principals of freedom and responsibilty. I have been saying this myself. I just object to the way you seem to view people that have a problem with obviously bad aspects of everyday life as 'meddlesome' or even 'extremists'. What's wrong with thinking that drugs are bad or guns are dangerous? To me that's not extreme.

Quoting:
Actually, I think he was referring to psychos in general, not just foreigners.  There are psychos of every nationality, in every country (and yes, even Canada ;) ).End Quote

Oh OK, sorry I misinterpreted that. My sincere apologies. And I know there are psychos in Canada. Their names are Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka, that guy in B.C. who owned a pig farm where the bodies of something like 30 women were found (I can't remember the exact count), and Marc Lepine, who opened fire on 14 women at L'École Polytechnique in Montréal. Fellow Canadians reading this will know exactly who I'm talking about. I'm sure there are others, but those ones come to mind...

Quoting:And the "Melting Pot of the World", well, thats just what America is referred to as because everyone and their brother seems to find their way here.End Quote

If they don't come to Canada first. ;D

Quoting:Again, same goes for every country around the world, not just us evil gun-owning murderous savage Americans.  (and yes again, even Canada ;))End Quote

Well, I know we're not exactly perfect, but close enough. ;)

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:


Ok, I know I am not Rice, and he has probably already defended himself, but this bugged me.  Rice is not implying that it is foreigners.  He would be the last one to lay the blame on someone from another country.  In case you didn't know, he is a naturalized citizen himself.  I think he was referring to the psychos, plain and simple.End Quote

No he hasn't responded yet, and no I didn't know he was originally from another country. I've already apologised for the misinterpretation.

By the way (and I know this is a bit off-topic again, so I apologise once again), the term "naturalised citizen" really bothers me because it implies that someone came to America from another country, completely lost their identity and culture and conformed to American society. I don't agree with that at all. I'm all for cultural diversity, which is what we have here. People from another country should feel free to keep their identity, culture and language...as long as they also learn to speak English. :D

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
I have no problem with your principals of freedom and responsibilty. I have been saying this myself. I just object to the way you seem to view people that have a problem with obviously bad aspects of everyday life as 'meddlesome' or even 'extremists'. What's wrong with thinking that drugs are bad or guns are dangerous? To me that's not extreme.

End Quote

I think this part here is the main point we disagree on.  I have no problem with someone who thinks that drugs are bad or guns are dangerous.  I know that guns are definitely dangerous and that drugs often are bad.  But it doesn't automatically follow that they should be outlawed.  The fact that you or even a majority of the population see no value in them doesn't give you the right to deny them to people who do.  And clearly there are plenty of adults that see value in guns and drugs.  They may be wrong in your opinion, but if their opinion differs, why is it your opinion and not theirs that dictates the policies we're all required to follow?  That's what I mean by things like "arrogant" and "meddlesome"--the assumption that whatever "value" people think they receive cannot possibly outweigh the hazards, and the willingness to use government--any government, in any country--to try to force them to "agree".  

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not calling YOU (or anyone else) arrogant or meddlesome; but if someone has the attitude that their opinion is so superior to somebody else's that they feel they have the right to tell them how to live their life, I think those words would be an appropriate way to describe that attitude.

Quoting:


By the way (and I know this is a bit off-topic again, so I apologise once again), the term "naturalised citizen" really bothers me because it implies that someone came to America from another country, completely lost their identity and culture and conformed to American society. I don't agree with that at all. I'm all for cultural diversity, which is what we have here. People from another country should feel free to keep their identity, culture and language...as long as they also learn to speak English. :D

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

I never thought about that...You make a good point.  I know many immigrants and they haven't lost their culture.  America is a mix of many cultures.  I agree with the speaking English, though, at least to communicate with the world at large.  

Quoting:

By the way (and I know this is a bit off-topic again, so I apologise once again), the term "naturalised citizen" really bothers me because it implies that someone came to America from another country, completely lost their identity and culture and conformed to American society. I don't agree with that at all. I'm all for cultural diversity, which is what we have here. People from another country should feel free to keep their identity, culture and language...as long as they also learn to speak English. :D

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

Vile,

"Naturalized citizen" simply means the citizen was not born here.  That is ALL it means.

Also... I have had the occasion to travel to Canada for work purposes many times over the years, and I can say that your proclamation of "diversity" rings hollow.

I have seen discrimination against blacks (African-Canadians).  I have seen vapid discrimination against Americans and American products.  And from what I can read in the papers, it seems like the French-Canadians (specifically the Quebecois) don't get along with ANYONE.  Fortunately the VAST majority of Canadians I have worked with have been welcoming, friendly people (even if they do talk funny... ;D  :P  )

And do not forget that people from Hong Kong were more than welcome to become Canadians as long as they could pay the money.  You can not buy American citizenship.  (you can only get it thru following procedure or bribery, but it is not "publicly" for sale.)

My point?  Nobody has a corner on the "diversity" market.  Discrimination exists everywhere, especially when poverty is involved.

Quite frankly I think "diversity" is a crock and a buzzword.  Equal Opportunity is the key.  I do not look for diversity.  I look for hard workers who are loyal to my company.  And they just happen to come in all colors and sizes!

Quoting:


I'm all for cultural diversity, which is what we have here. People from another country should feel free to keep their identity, culture and language...as long as they also learn to speak English. :D

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

I imagine the Quebecois would disagree with you.   :P

Quoting:
"Naturalized citizen" simply means the citizen was not born here.  That is ALL it means.End Quote

Well, I was born in Hong Kong, but when I moved here I kept a lot of traditional Chinese values but I also embraced mainstream American culture :)

Quoting:Fortunately the VAST majority of Canadians I have worked with have been welcoming, friendly people (even if they do talk funny... ;D  :P  )  End Quote

Hehe, yeah, they are great people, and usually very nice to me...except for the ones that I decked or gave a knee to during pickup hockey, hehehe.

Quoting:

And do not forget that people from Hong Kong were more than welcome to become Canadians as long as they could pay the money.  You can not buy American citizenship.  (you can only get it thru following procedure or bribery, but it is not "publicly" for sale.)   End Quote

That's an excellent point, and my family is firsthand proof of that.  My immediate family is the only group who came to America and suffered through almost 7 years of extended visas and another 8 years of "resident alien" status before getting the chance to become American citizens in 2000.  My extended family, on the other hand, moved to Canada for three years and became citizens without a hitch because they knew that time was short (Britain was about to relinquish control of Hong Kong to the Chinese) and Canadian citizenship was easy to attain.

Quoting:I'd like to make it clear that I'm not calling YOU (or anyone else) arrogant or meddlesome; but if someone has the attitude that their opinion is so superior to somebody else's that they feel they have the right to tell them how to live their life, I think those words would be an appropriate way to describe that attitude.End Quote

All I was doing was expressing an opinion, Claude. To actually think my opinion would get to government would be arrogance in itself.  :)

Everybody has an opinion but only an incredibly small amount of people would care enough (in Britain anyway) to go to government and attempt to 'meddle' in people's lives - especially victimless people anyway.

I think everybody holds their own opinions in high regard, Claude - that's human nature. Me and yourself are prime examples. We will naturally believe that our own opinion is the right one. Since having this discussion with you, my attitude has changed slightly in the way that people are free to do as they wish to themselves to their own injury - that is their personal freedom.

Quoting:
Nobody should ever own a gun. Period. That's all there is to it.  Guns are simply not necessary. If you want protection, install an alarm system in your home. Protection on the streets? Pepper spray, mace (if either is legal), your keys between two fingers, or simple knowledge of self defence will do the trick.
End Quote

Actually, I disagree with you strongly.  I can justify it several ways.

1)  Here in the US, a large number of people *STILL* use hunting to eat.  I live in a very rural area, and a lot of people out here are farmers.  In the winter, they supplement their diets with deer that they shoot.  THis is also done to thin the herds.  Because of the elimination of natural predators here the deer would eat themselves to death unless the numbers were thinned out.  And this is a fact, tens of thousands of deer died in New York in the 1960's when hunting them was banned, and the numbers went out of control.

2)  We also have rural areas where there are a lot of predators.  My mom lived in one, and it was not unusual to see bears, coyotes, wolves, rattlesnakes, or mountain lions there.  Without a gun to protect herself (normally shooting it in the air was enough, she had to shoot a mountain lion once) she would have been dead a long time before.

3)  The police can't be everywhere, especially in a dense urban area with a high crime rate, or in an area that is far removed from a city.  I have owned a gun for over 20 years, and have never even pulled it out unless I was at a gun range.

4)  I worked for 2 years in a pawn shop, with over $1,000,000 in money and gold on the premises.  Myself and the boss were also armed.  During the 30+ years the business has been open, it has *NEVER* been robbed.  We have seen gangbangers come in, see us armed, then leave.  We have never had anybody once complain about us being armed.

5)  Not everybody should have a gun.  Myself, I keep mine for target shooting.  Since I can no longer do strenous exercise, I find it a way to relax, keep my eyes and hands sharp, and release tension.

6)  Lack of guns is not a prevention for crime.  THere is still crime in lots of countries that ban guns, and crime in areas without guns.  There was crime even before guns existed.  I blame the criminals, not the guns.  After all, OJ killed 2 people with a knife.

Quoting:
Knives have less lethal potential than guns

Tell that to the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, where 500,000 people were murdered 9 years ago, using machetes.  :'(

Or tell that to 2500+ people in New York and Pennsylvania who were slaughtered with box cutters and jumbo jets.  :'(

End Quote

Here is a stat not many know of: you are TEN times more likely to die if you are stabben then if you are shot.

That is because a knife is much more likely to either rip blood vessels, or to dammage internal organs.  Even the smallest knife doef a lot more damage then even a 9mm bullet.  Add to that most stabbings include multiple wounds, not just one.  This is compared to a gun, where it is hard to even hit a target without training, let alone hit him several times.

Quoting:
I'm sorry, but if I lived in a place where it was your God-given right to carry a gun and you could just walk into your local Wal-Mart and buy one, I'd be really scared. (By the way, I don't know if you can do that anymore, but I heard you could.)
End Quote

Yes, you can just walk in and buy one.  But before you can take it home, you have to wait 3-30 days before you can take it home with you.  That is to give the local authorities a chance to run a background check, and to allow for a "cooling off period".

But there is no waiting period for knives, baseball bats (or to the Britts, Crickett Wickets), cars, rat poison, or the Jerry Springer Show.  :D

Quoting:


All I was doing was expressing an opinion, Claude. To actually think my opinion would get to government would be arrogance in itself.  :)

Everybody has an opinion but only an incredibly small amount of people would care enough (in Britain anyway) to go to government and attempt to 'meddle' in people's lives - especially victimless people anyway.
End Quote

You don't have to "go to government" to have a hand in it.  Public opinion plays a huge role here at least because they have to get people to vote for them.  If 70% of likely voters felt the way I do about the war on drugs politicians from both parties would be falling all over themselves to denounce it.  It's what those unprincipled whores do.  All this meddling is made possible because people allow it--hell, they ask for it, without even knowing it.  When someone like "Mr. 80's" votes for politicians who support the war on drugs, he's not just messing with a bunch of druggies; he's also saying that all of our rights are up for grabs, because if you don't have the right to make your own choices regarding your own body, there is no limit to the intrusive laws they will try to pass.  Now if you're saying that people shouldn't use drugs, I have no problem with that.  If you're saying that there should be laws against using drugs, that's way different.

Quoting:
I think everybody holds their own opinions in high regard, Claude - that's human nature. Me and yourself are prime examples. We will naturally believe that our own opinion is the right one. Since having this discussion with you, my attitude has changed slightly in the way that people are free to do as they wish to themselves to their own injury - that is their personal freedom.

End Quote

Wow.  That's great to hear; thanks.  I guess I can relax now.  Peace my brother.

Quoting:
When someone like "Mr. 80's" votes for politicians who support the war on drugs, he's not just messing with a bunch of druggies; he's also saying that all of our rights are up for grabs, because if you don't have the right to make your own choices regarding your own body, there is no limit to the intrusive laws they will try to pass.
End Quote

Actually, I do not vote because of Drugs.  To me, it is not so important that I will vote for a politician because of that issue.  I can't think of any one issue I feel strongly enough about to support a politician because of one issue.  I do care about how a politician feels about a wide range of issues however.

To me, the war on drugs is because of the social damage it does.  Things like crime, health damage, the destruction to the family, the crime associated with it, things like that.

Having read the Constitution and many other documents, I have yet to find the "right to get stoned".  I also see no right to kill unborn babies, the right to steal land from landowners and call it "redistribution", nor the right to force millions of people to pay for health care for everybody else.

Please don't put thoughts into my head, it is crowded enough as it is.  :)  I am very much for personal rights, but I also look at the "general welfare", and feel it is the place of the Government to step in and prevent something that has been proven to be damaging from making a bigger problem.  :)

Quoting:


Actually, I do not vote because of Drugs.  To me, it is not so important that I will vote for a politician because of that issue.  I can't think of any one issue I feel strongly enough about to support a politician because of one issue.  I do care about how a politician feels about a wide range of issues however.

To me, the war on drugs is because of the social damage it does.  Things like crime, health damage, the destruction to the family, the crime associated with it, things like that.

Having read the Constitution and many other documents, I have yet to find the "right to get stoned".  I also see no right to kill unborn babies, the right to steal land from landowners and call it "redistribution", nor the right to force millions of people to pay for health care for everybody else.

Please don't put thoughts into my head, it is crowded enough as it is.  :)  I am very much for personal rights, but I also look at the "general welfare", and feel it is the place of the Government to step in and prevent something that has been proven to be damaging from making a bigger problem.  :)
End Quote

Fair enough.  But if you really feel people should be responsible for their own health care, aren't you really saying that they're responsible for their own bodies?   And doesn't the right to decide what to do with something go hand in hand with the responsibility for it?  Because I agree--it's my body and nobody else should have to pay for my health care.  And nobody else should be telling me what drugs I may or may not put into it either.  How can this possibly not make sense to you?  Also, if the government shouldn't be robbing people to pay for the health care of others, why should they be robbing people to "step in and prevent something that has been proven to be damaging from making a bigger problem"?

PS--Read that you were a vet.  Thank you for your service to our country.

Quoting:

Fair enough.  But if you really feel people should be responsible for their own health care, aren't you really saying that they're responsible for their own bodies?   And doesn't the right to decide what to do with something go hand in hand with the responsibility for it?
End Quote

TO me, the problem is not as much as what happens to the person that uses drugs, but to what happens to society.  You may call it "collateral damage".

Go to any drug area, you find a slum.  You also find higher crime through prostitution, robbery, burglary, muggings, etc.

You also find more vandalism and grafitti, either through the gangs tagging their area, from people that come in and do not care and leave messes, or from other things.

You also find gangs, fighting for the business.  This causes murders through "drive-by" shootings, and causes the people that live there to either move out (if they can) or stay inside of their houses, afraid to come out.

YOu also find more broken marriages, and children without parents.  This is because their parents are out hanging out and doing drugs, not spending the time and money and attention their kids deserve.

There are many more problems, but you get the idea.  Myself, I really do not care about the drug users.  It is mostly the dealers that cause a lot of these problems.  And dealers do not care about their "clients".  THey will sell them anything they can to make a buck.  After all, there are very few dealers that only sell "grass".  They also sell crack, meth, PCP, heroin, X, and anything else they can get away with.

Personally, I really do *NOT* care about drugs.  But I do care about what it does to society.

Quoting:Here is a stat not many know of: you are TEN times more likely to die if you are stabben then if you are shot.
End Quote

That goes along with what I mentioned earlier, in that when I am walking through town at night, alone, I am more concerned at being stabbed by a mugger than ever being shot.

I think people like Absolutely Vile have it in their minds that everyone in America is walking around armed, and ready to shoot.  Completely untrue, and in most states, also illegal.

Quoting:
I think people like Absolutely Vile have it in their minds that everyone in America is walking around armed, and ready to shoot.  Completely untrue, and in most states, also illegal.
End Quote

OK, now you're just being immature. I don't appreciate being attacked. No one else is doing it, so why are you?

I do not have that in my mind, and I am insulted that you think that way. But it's not my fault that your Constitution makes it OK for someone to arm themselves at will! Also, if it's apparently illegal in most states to arm yourself ready to shoot, isn't that unconstitutional?

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
I think people like Absolutely Vile have it in their minds that everyone in America is walking around armed, and ready to shoot.  Completely untrue, and in most states, also illegal.
End Quote

Yes, you are so right.

The only time I was armed (not counting when I was in the Military) was when I worked at the pawn shop.  THen, I put the gun on when I got to work, and took it off and locked it in the safe when I left at night.  If I left the shop (like for lunch), I took it off.

My mom only wore her gun if she was either 1) carrying a large amount of cash (she was a real estate broker, a 4'11" woman with over $50,000 in cash would be an inviting target otherwise.  or 2)  She was going to a remote area to check out property.  Other then that, she left it at home.

I am sure that a lot of people have misconceptions of how things are here.  Both movies and TV do not really show things how they are.

I lived in LA most of my life, and only once saw a high speed chase.  I have never seen a drive-by shooting, and I have never had to pull a gun in self defense (not counting my time in military law enforcement - and even then I never needed it, pulling it was SOP in certain circumstances).

I know that when I lived in Idaho, we had a gal move there from New York.  In her mind, Idaho (part of the "Old West") should have had wooden sidewalks, horses going down the streets, women in hoop skirts, and everybody packing a 6-gun on their belt.  And this was in 1982!  That was actually what she expected, after seeing the state protrayed on TV and in movies that way.

In reality, a vast majority of those that carry guns on a day-to-day basis are criminals.  And they did not get their guns legally in the first place.  And the states with liberal "Conceal-carry" laws (like Texas and Florida) tend to have lower then average crime rates.

I first brought up this topic, not as a way to attack guns or their owners, but as a way to attack irresponsible gun owners.  For me, the article that started this was sickening.  Not because of the gun, but because of parents that are so irresponsible to leave a gun & ammunition where an unsupervised 14 year old can get to it.  People like that are not only to stupid to own a gun, they should be considered to stupid to raise a child.

A gun is a very dangerous tool.  Like a Hilte nailo driver, a power saw, or a truck, a gun is a tool.  It can be used well, used safely, or used stupidly and dangerously.  It is people like those parents that have no right to have a gun.

As a bumpersticker my uncle once had said:

"My legally registered handgun has killed less people then Ted Kennedy's car"

For those not in the US, Ted Kennedy is an outspoken opponent of private gun ownership.  

Quoting:


OK, now you're just being immature. I don't appreciate being attacked. No one else is doing it, so why are you?

I do not have that in my mind, and I am insulted that you think that way. But it's not my fault that your Constitution makes it OK for someone to arm themselves at will! Also, if it's apparently illegal in most states to arm yourself ready to shoot, isn't that unconstitutional?

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

I know I'm butting in here, but as a casual observer I've had the impression you felt that way also; I think it may have something to do with your rhetoric ("American obsession with guns", to quote one phrase).  It doesn't look to me like you were attacked personally at all.  

Quoting:
OK, now you're just being immature. I don't appreciate being attacked. No one else is doing it, so why are you? End Quote

"attacked"?  My statement was based solely on the impression you have given on the issue.  No "attack" intended.

Here's your statement that mostly gave me this impression:  "I'd be really scared....I'd be afraid of walking down the street past the wrong person who might open fire in my general direction because it's his (or her) constitutional right to own a gun."

Quoting:But it's not my fault that your Constitution makes it OK for someone to arm themselves at will! End Quote

Thats true, and nobody said it was anyone's "fault".  Not sure where you're going with that statement.

Quoting:Also, if it's apparently illegal in most states to arm yourself ready to shoot, isn't that unconstitutional?End Quote

I should have pointed out, yes, its illegal to carry a "concealed" weapon, without proper licensing however.

Quoting:
But it's not my fault that your Constitution makes it OK for someone to arm themselves at will! Also, if it's apparently illegal in most states to arm yourself ready to shoot, isn't that unconstitutional?

Absolutely Vile
End Quote

THe right to keep and bear arms is in the Constitution.  But with any right, there is responsibility.  And while the right is there, many municipalities have placed restrictions on when and where it is legal to do so.

And yes, those laws sometimes cause problems.  I know in Idaho and Alabama, if you have a rifle in a pick-up, it must be visible through the rear window in a "gun rack".  Yet in California, doing that will get you arrested for "brandishing a firearm".

However, ultimately it is the responsibility that matters most.  I find that most times somebody is shot when not comitting a crime, it was gross negligence that caused it.  In short, stupidity.  And that same stupidity can be applied to kids in cars, drinking, or almost any other dangerous thing.

Some places have gone so far in their laws, that legitimate gun owners can't own a gun (New York).  Others like California have made it hard to own guns, like California.  Los Angeles even requires thumbprints to buy ammo, and are talking about a waiting period for ammo.

THe problem is, that does nothing to keep it from the hands of criminals.  They just buy it off the street.  ANd while California requires a firearms safety class before you can buy a gun, that does not stop people from being stupid anyways.  Yes, the classes have lowered accidents a lot, but it will never stop them.  Just as driving classes, jail terms, and fines will never stop stupid traffic accidents.

It only takes responsibility to stop 99% of accidental gun deaths.  The problem is, we live in a society now that does not take responsibility for very much.

You also have to look at the history of our country.  After the 1776 Revolution, Thomas Jefferson and others insisted on a law protecting the right to own guns.  Jefferson felt that as long as the general population was armed, a government could not become to tyranical.  And that if that was ever to happen, it was the people's right to overthrow that government in order to make a new one.

But that has also helped us out.  While Europe has not had to deal with "barbarians" for several centuries, our nation has had to deal with them fairly recently.  Between some of the unrulely Indian tribes, or the predations of bandits like Pancho Villa, private gun ownership helped to prevent more deaths by such incidents.  It is only in the beginning of the last century that such things stopped being a threat in our country.

Indeed, in many areas, we STILL have problems with wildlife killing people.  This is because the vast majority of the US is still in an almost wilderness condition.  I doubt that Europe has many cases of people being mauled by wild animals, but it still happens out here a lot, even in places like Los Angeles.

And it is also our independent nature.  England learned that during the War of 1812, Mexico learned that during the Mexican-American war.  One reason Japan and Germany realized they would have to come to terms with the US if they won WWII was because of the huge amounts of guns in private ownership.  In many ways, we still think of ourselves as "modern minutemen", and will arm ourselves to protect ourselves, our family, and our country.  Thankfully, that has never happened in almost 100 years.

Quoting:


TO me, the problem is not as much as what happens to the person that uses drugs, but to what happens to society.  You may call it "collateral damage".

Go to any drug area, you find a slum.  You also find higher crime through prostitution, robbery, burglary, muggings, etc.

You also find more vandalism and grafitti, either through the gangs tagging their area, from people that come in and do not care and leave messes, or from other things.

You also find gangs, fighting for the business.  This causes murders through "drive-by" shootings, and causes the people that live there to either move out (if they can) or stay inside of their houses, afraid to come out.

YOu also find more broken marriages, and children without parents.  This is because their parents are out hanging out and doing drugs, not spending the time and money and attention their kids deserve.

There are many more problems, but you get the idea.  Myself, I really do not care about the drug users.  It is mostly the dealers that cause a lot of these problems.  And dealers do not care about their "clients".  THey will sell them anything they can to make a buck.  After all, there are very few dealers that only sell "grass".  They also sell crack, meth, PCP, heroin, X, and anything else they can get away with.

Personally, I really do *NOT* care about drugs.  But I do care about what it does to society.
End Quote

Well, for one thing, drugs and prostitution exist in plenty of areas that aren't "slums".  They're just better hidden in the areas where people have the means to do so.  Sure, they are one of many symptoms of a poor neighborhood--largely because the risk involved makes it one of the most lucrative job opportunities available to people with few other options.  Legalize it, and that risk decreases, more competitors make it less lucrative and suddenly a career in fast food doesn't look so bad to a great number of people.  If you ask me, that would be good, not bad, for the individuals involved.  Would people still use drugs?  You bet.  But ya know what?  I'm not their daddy and neither are you. (I hope)

Quoting:Now if you're saying that people shouldn't use drugs, I have no problem with that.  If you're saying that there should be laws against using drugs, that's way different. End Quote

Hmm. I see your point.

Quoting:Wow.  That's great to hear; thanks.  I guess I can relax now.  Peace my brother.End Quote

I'm treading carefully here. Do you mean that? I can't tell without a smiley (show's how duff I am).  :D

Quoting:
If you ask me, that would be good, not bad, for the individuals involved.  Would people still use drugs?  You bet.  But ya know what?  I'm not their daddy and neither are you. (I hope)
End Quote

LOL ;D

Quoting:
The next poster who diss's Rod Stewart is gonna get it right between the eyes with my pea shooter. :'( :'( :'(
End Quote

Have I missed a post or something? I like some of Rod Stewart's music (especially Downtown Train and The Motown Song).

Quoting:


Hmm. I see your point.


I'm treading carefully here. Do you mean that? I can't tell without a smiley (show's how duff I am).  :D
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:D :D :D :D :D

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Around here, the deer population is so out of control, ...  
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So's the human race.   ;)

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So's the human race.   ;)
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well, I was referring to their over-population.  And yes, I would agree some humans shouldn't have "populated".  But, there's not much we can do about that.   :)

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Just kidding guys. Someone posted about having to listen to Rod Stewart while in the dentist chair and another posted that having to listen to Rod Stewart in the dentist chair didn't help matters. He's one of my favorites so I was just pushing some buttons. As you were!! :) :) :)
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Ah! I get you know. Claude Prez mentioned Rod Stewart and I followed it on.

You were a bit late responding to that one, atthistime.  :D

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Hi Bobby!
Yeah. Since it was at the top of page six, I figured I'd better get on it. Tell me that you think that "Tonight's The Night" is a Rod Stewart gem, and I'll take the hex off you. lol

I know, I know! Off topic.
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Er . . . Ha ha . . . It's alright. Is that o.k?  :D

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Is your headache gone? :D :D
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No, you're still here. :P Can we get back on topic, please?

Absolutely Vile

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No, you're still here. :P Can we get back on topic, please?

Absolutely Vile
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Ho ho! Witty retort from The Vilester. I don't know what to say on this topic . . . Oh hang on, I'll have a sing . . .

"Do ya think I'm sexy
If you want my body . . ."

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No, you're still here. :P Can we get back on topic, please?
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What was the topic now, I forgot?

Was it that we should shoot Rod Stewart?

Was it how Rod Stewart is irresponsible with guns?

Is it that I like both guns and Rod Stewart?

I'm so confused!

:o

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No, you're still here. :P Can we get back on topic, please?

Absolutely Vile
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You're absolutely right.  Back on topic we go.  Lessee, we're all murderers cause we smack mosquitos and use mouthwash to kill the living creatures that cause bad breath.  You, apparently, are really itchy and stink.  But you're not a murderer.  Yay for you.

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You're absolutely right.  Back on topic we go.  Lessee, we're all murderers cause we smack mosquitos and use mouthwash to kill the living creatures that cause bad breath.  You, apparently, are really itchy and stink.  But you're not a murderer.  Yay for you.
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Did I ever say that? No. And for your information (not that it's really any of your concern anyway), mosquitos rarely bother me in the summer, I brush my teeth, and I shower on a regular basis. Besides, I think including something as trivial as bacteria as a living, breathing creature is carrying things a bit too far. You're just being silly. ::)

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:


Did I ever say that? No. And for your information (not that it's really any of your concern anyway), mosquitos rarely bother me in the summer, I brush my teeth, and I shower on a regular basis. Besides, I think including something as trivial as bacteria as a living, breathing creature is carrying things a bit too far. You're just being silly. ::)

Absolutely Vile
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Bacteria are living organisms.  Don't know if they breathe, exactly, but they're definitely alive and probably don't think of themselves as trivial.  The question is, where do you draw the line?  And if you really do think people who swat mosquitos are as bad as people who kill innocent human beings, should you be calling ME silly?

Quoting:

Bacteria are living organisms.  Don't know if they breathe, exactly, but they're definitely alive and probably don't think of themselves as trivial.  The question is, where do you draw the line?  And if you really do think people who swat mosquitos are as bad as people who kill innocent human beings, should you be calling ME silly?
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Did I also say that people who swat mosquitos were bad people? NO!!!

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
Do you hunt for sport? If you do, you murder animals for fun. That doesn't make you a "law abiding American," that makes you a killer. (And please, let's not get on an "animals are lesser beings than humans" thing. That's a whole other topic. Animals are living creatures just like humans are and deserve the same respect. That's all I'm going to say on that.)

Absolutely Vile
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I hate spiders, but they just get captured and tossed out the door, just like flies, etc. I've been lucky with mosquitoes lately, even though I live in the mosquito capital of the world and wear dark clothing. I just shoo them away. :D

Absolutely Vile
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I can't believe you made me go find these.  Your entire argument against hunting was apparently based on the idea that all living creatures should have the same rights as humans.  You equated hunting with murder; it stands to reason that you feel the same way about killing bugs.  What's the difference, exactly?

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Can we get back on topic, please?
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OK, so you light the flame that has started this inferno, and now you want to back out and "get back on topic"? ::)


When you come out and say some of the things I've read from you in this thread(ie hunters are murderers), you can't just expect people to not take offense to that and not respond accordingly.

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I'll bring things back on topic! And yes, this has to do with guns and even parents with guns! I just saw a fantastic documentary that everybody should watch at least once...End Quote

Wow, well that explains everything.

Your mis-informed feelings about American gun-ownership is based on the feelings of the leftist Michael "pass me another cheeseburger" Moore?  That explains a lot.  Why didn't you just say that to begin with. ::)

http://www.moorewatch.com/

Quoting:
Fine.

I give up. I hate throwing in the towel, but I've said my piece. I've exercised my right to free speech and it has fallen on deaf ears. I should have known. Sorry I've wasted your time, and mine.

Absolutely Vile
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Guess our work here is done guys.  Time to go slaughter some innocent yogurt.

Quoting:
What was the topic now, I forgot?

Was it that we should shoot Rod Stewart?

Was it how Rod Stewart is irresponsible with guns?

Is it that I like both guns and Rod Stewart?

I'm so confused!

:o
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LOL  :D

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Guess our work here is done guys.  Time to go slaughter some innocent yogurt.
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Oh dear, poor Vile. I think getting into an argument about killing animals is a really difficult one - I suppose it depends on your attitude to each creature. What do they call people that protect cute animals like cats and dogs but have no mercy on insects like Spiders and stuff?

Quoting:
As soon as I found out I was pregnant, I sold the gun and never looked back  ;D.

Parents shouldn't keep a gun in the house with children or young adults, with the statistics of suicides, Not a good idea.
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I totally agree with this one.  I don't have a gun, but when my daughter was first born my father lived with us and he had one.  When he moved I made him that that over first.  It was in his room behind a locked door in a locked box and she wasn't mobile yet, but I still didn't like it.  

Quoting:


Oh dear, poor Vile. I think getting into an argument about killing animals is a really difficult one - I suppose it depends on your attitude to each creature. What do they call people that protect cute animals like cats and dogs but have no mercy on insects like Spiders and stuff?
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That wasn't the whole argument, though. I'm against guns, full stop. But there's no reasoning with some people, is there? ::) Oh well, back into my little hole I go.

Absolutely Vile

Quoting:
Time to go slaughter some innocent yogurt.
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nah, I think I'll stick with shooting (or murdering ::)) Bambis and things like that.  Tastes much better. :D