Quoting:
I have not seen the whole tape... just a quickie 10-second section played on TV this evening.

Basically my opinion is this.   Jones lunged at the officers and threw punches.  They were justified in taking the nightsticks to him to subdue him.  If he CONTINUED to resist arrest then they are justified in beating the crap out of him until he stops fighting back.  If the TOTAL tape shows that they kept beating him after he stopped fighting, then the police officers would be SERIOUSLY wrong.  Mind you, Jones was on PCP (per blood tests) which means that likely he was doing some really stupid things behaviorally at the time.

My Momma taught me a long time ago not to throw punches at cops.  Of course she also taught me not to take PCP either.  Seems that Jones learned neither lesson in his life.

Quite frankly I am tired of the NAACP trotting out and bitching every time a black man is beaten when resisting arrest.  Where are they when a black man beats a white man?  Or more to the point, where are they when a black man kills a black man, since the majority of black people murdered are murdered by blacks?

I am not a racist.  A very kind, lovely black woman helped to raise me.  Because of her I had a "ghetto pass" before I actually knew that I needed one.  Through her example I learned to respect hard-working people regardless of their race.  Her life was not easy and many times was made even harder by violence in her extended family, black on black violence.  She found her oldest son murdered at home with his head beaten in with a baseball bat by a black drug dealer.  She and her husband were both shot and seriously injured by a drug-addled son-in-law.

She never made excuses for the criminals and she was always there to help victims.  Through her example I also learned that it is incorrect to blame one's failures on one's race (or somebody else's race for that matter).  She kept her eyes on her goals, and worked hard to achieve them.  And she taught me that while racism is clearly wrong, blaming one's criminality problems on racism is equally wrong.

Was Nathaniel Jones another Rodney King?  Well if you mean a drug-addled man who was stupid enough to throw punches at a couple of cops, then the answer would be ...  ???
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I agree with everything you stated...I merely was pissed off at mr. Webster getting upset at her using the word "Beating" and downplaying it by calling it "trained compliance techniques"...I mean to say that he sounds as moronic as the military guy in 1970 addressing the Kent State killings when he claimed National Guardsmen had merely fired warning shots into the air...just maybe Roger Webster is that guys kid?? ::)

Quoting:

I agree with everything you stated...I merely was pissed off at mr. Webster getting upset at her using the word "Beating" and downplaying it by calling it "trained compliance techniques"...I mean to say that he sounds as moronic as the military guy in 1970 addressing the Kent State killings when he claimed National Guardsmen had merely fired warning shots into the air...just maybe Roger Webster is that guys kid?? ::)
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Haven't seen the tape or frankly even heard about it outside of this thread but it sounds like the cop was unhappy with the connotations a word like "beating" may carry with some people and simply wanted to remind everyone not to make assumptions.  Or maybe he is just a weasel; that's quite possible.

Quoting:
Just saw the footage on our news.

Dont your cops go to "tackling the prisoner" school ?

If I guy is lying on the ground face down - then you are pretty much in control.  Ours just all lie on top of him until the cuffs are on.

The footage clearly shows that cop repeatedly using the baton into what I am assuming from the positioning - to be the mans rib cage area.
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That's pretty much what it looked like from the bit they showed on the news here, and then they followed with that a**hole talking about "trained compliance techniques" - ignoring the grammatical faux pas, repeated (20+ times repeated) blows to the abdominal area doesn't seem like an appropriate technique to be trained to use.  Being a policeman ain't easy, especially when you've a 400lb off-his-head kind to be subdued... but the public have a right to expect a certain degree of self-control from their, er, protectors.  

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't what caused the rioting in LA not the event itself, but when the policemen in question got let off scot free without even a reprimand?  ISTM that this time the guy with the nightstick should have something to answer for; I don't know whether some kind of conspiracy charge would be appropriate for his colleagues as they seemed to be trying to do the right thing...

Phil

Quoting:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't what caused the rioting in LA not the event itself, but when the policemen in question got let off scot free without even a reprimand?  ISTM that this time the guy with the nightstick should have something to answer for; I don't know whether some kind of conspiracy charge would be appropriate for his colleagues as they seemed to be trying to do the right thing...

Phil
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Yeah, what started the riots was that the cops beat the rap.  It is curious that there was no rioting in LA when OJ got off.  I wonder if we will have riots in the streets if Michael Jackson gets off or if Scott Petersen gets off.

Quoting:
Just saw the footage on our news.

Dont your cops go to "tackling the prisoner" school ?

If I guy is lying on the ground face down - then you are pretty much in control.  Ours just all lie on top of him until the cuffs are on.

The footage clearly shows that cop repeatedly using the baton into what I am assuming from the positioning - to be the mans rib cage area.
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I am not asking this to be mean, but have you ever had training in how to arrest a combative suspect?  I have.  And trust me, *NOTHING* can prepare a cop in how to arrest a combative 350+ pound man on PCP.

To arrest a 200 lb combative suspect it normally takes 3 officers (2 to restrain, 1 to cuff them).  Roughly double that for the extra 150 lbs.  THen add another 2-4 because of the affects of PCP.  Just to give you an idea, the LAPD changed their shooting policy in 1985 after a PCP suspect was shot *8* times with a 9mm and kept charging them.

PCP is one of the cops biggest nightmares when it comes to aprehending a suspect.  It gives the user almost superhuman strength, and an almost total immunity to pain.  I know when I was working with the Marine Corps Security Sctool in 1990-1993, we all agreed that Rodney King was most likely on PCP (how else can he take those taser shots and batton blows and keep going?).  In fact, the head instructor was black, and he is the one that added the entire 15 minute tape to the cirriculum for "proper arrest procedures" class.

To me, the cops did nothing wrong.  Mr. Jones did 3 really stupid things.  For one, he was useing PCP in public, doing stupid things that caused the staff at a resteraunt he was at to call 911.  The second was attacking a cop when they tried to talk to him.  The third was not complying with the cops and fighting them, causing them to have to take more extreme measures.  If Mr. Jones had not done 1 of these three things, he would still be alive.

Chris Rock said it best.  When the cops tell you to do something, DO IT!  He did a great bit about 2 years ago on how to avoid being beat by cops.  All of them make sense, and I play the clip periodically for a laugh because it is so common-sense.

Quoting:
ignoring the grammatical faux pas, repeated (20+ times repeated) blows to the abdominal area doesn't seem like an appropriate technique to be trained to use.
End Quote

OK, then what should they do?

I love how people say "this is wrong", when they have never had to subdue a combative person.  I am sure 99% of cops would love a way that would prevent any harm to themselves or the suspect.

At one time, choke holds were the standard way to stop somebody.  THen that was determined to be bad, so they had nothing left but battons.  Mace and pepper-spray does not always work, especially against a suspect under the influence.  Taser and stun guns have the same problem.  And this guy was under the influence of PCP, a drug once used to drug HORSES for minor surgery.

I agree about appropriate.  Appropriate is not useing PCP to begin with.  Appropriate is not attacking cops.  Appropriate is not resisting arrest.

But when the suspect is not appropriate, the cops can only do what they are allowed to do.  It is sad that the cops are on the defensive again because of a criminal that did stupid things.

Quoting:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't what caused the rioting in LA not the event itself, but when the policemen in question got let off scot free without even a reprimand?  ISTM that this time the guy with the nightstick should have something to answer for; I don't know whether some kind of conspiracy charge would be appropriate for his colleagues as they seemed to be trying to do the right thing...
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Actually, the cops in the Rodney King incident did the right thing.  The CHP officers that were there FIRST were about to *SHOOT* Mr. King when the LAPD arrived.  It is only because of LAPD intervention that Mr. King is still alive.

The riots were a result of thugs that wanted to riot.  I remember after the Lakers won the chanpionship in 2000.  I had talked to a few guys that said they "intended to tear up the town" the night of the last game, win or loose.

That is the LA street mentality nowadays.  They only need an excuse to riot, not a reason.  There were also riots in San Francisco after Rodney King, and what did that have to do with LA?

I lived until recently in LA, and that is a town that has been on the edge for years because of the "thug element", not because of any REAL racial tension.  There is a group in the community that wants to make problems, so they do.  Hopefully someday people will stop seeing in colors, and only look at criminal vs. non-criminal and not worry about the race of the criminal.

Quoting:
Actually, the cops in the Rodney King incident did the right thing.  The CHP officers that were there FIRST were about to *SHOOT* Mr. King when the LAPD arrived.  It is only because of LAPD intervention that Mr. King is still alive.
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So the extra kicking they gave him when he was down was so that he would be grateful for them saving his life?

Quoting:
Hopefully someday people will stop seeing in colors, and only look at criminal vs. non-criminal and not worry about the race of the criminal.
End Quote

Amen to that - though it does apply equally to the police as to the rest of society.

Quoting:
but I need more facts, other than the 60 second news clip.  
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Very true - especially as all the clip shown on the BBC news had was pretty much a continuous assault with a nightstick, leaving the viewer thinking "(expletive deleted) when is this guy going to stop?"

Quoting:
So the extra kicking they gave him when he was down was so that he would be grateful for them saving his life?
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THe thing is, the police are not paid to get into a fistfight with a suspect.  The minute the suspect stops resisting, they stop.  In the full RK tape, you could see the cops backing up and making hand signals to him in addition to yelling at him to get down and stay down.  But EACH TIME, RK tried to get back to his feet.  If he had just laid there and let them handcuff him, it would have ended a lot sooner.

I have seen the full tape (which was shown in the US only 3 times).  Several times durring the arrest, you could see the police backing up, yelling at RK to stay down, but he continued to get back to his feet.

RK should be grateful that Officer Koontz was there.  He got the worst of it when the lawyers got involved, but his was his interdiction that prevented the CHP and LAPD officers from shooting him.  So while he should not thank them, he should be grateful that they did NOT follow the LAPD and CHP arrest procedures or he would most likely be dead.
Amen to that - though it does apply equally to the police as to the rest of society.

Quoting:
Very true - especially as all the clip shown on the BBC news had was pretty much a continuous assault with a nightstick, leaving the viewer thinking "(expletive deleted) when is this guy going to stop?"
End Quote

Actually, that is the problem you saw here in the US also.  They would show only the clips where he was getting clubbed, but *NOT* the clips where the officers backed up and yelled at him to stay down.  That made it appear as if all they did was beat him over and over again.

I remember at least 4 or 5 times where they backed up and you could see them circling him, several officers yelling for him to stay down, to relax, and the like.

The interesting thing about RK is that he had 3 other black men in the car with him, and *NONE* of them were injured at all.  This is because they were smart and followed directions.  RK is the one that got out of the car and charged the officers.  If it was really a racial thing, why were the other 3 not beaten as well?

Quoting:
No matter how righteous the collar might be in these cases, you see this pathetic scene of a person being beaten, feel the pain  and fear.  Can't determine if it's human nature, duality of senses, maybe it's just me.  Anyone understand what I'm trying to say?
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Trust me, I feel very sorry for both Mr. King and Mr. Jones.  I feel sorry that they were beaten.  But in both cases, I feel they brought it upon themselves.  It was in their power to stop it at any time, but their resistance was the cause for the police continuing.

I read that article about the "lack of internal injuries" report (thanks Rice) and am glad that was the case.  If there were a few injuries to his body I would not think anything of it, but if there were a lot, that would be a different thing.  And apparently, there were none in this case.

But to me, this just gives me another reason to believe that drugs are bad.  It was the drugs that caused him to fight so strongly, and also the drugs that allowed him to take such punishment before being subdued.

Quoting:
They still beat him when he is obviously down.Pepper spray usually does the job no matter how "doped up anyone is" ::)
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There is a difference between "down" and "no longer resisting".  As long as he is still resisting, they have to have some way to subdue him.  If you read the transcripts, they had 4 cops on top of him and he was STILL resisting.  350+ pounds can do a lot of damage, even if it is just rolling over on top of them.

And no, pepper spray dpes NOT usually do the job if somebody is under the influence of drugs, especially one as strong as PCP.  If PCP can relieve enough pain so a vet can do minor surgery on a horse, imagine how well it works on a human.

I remember a story a cop told me in 1984.  A few months before in LA they had a guy on PCP jump off of the 4th floor of a building, and landed on his feet.  He totally shattered his legs from his ankles to his hips, and did massive internal injuries.  When they reached the guy, he was still trying to get up and walk!  In fact, he was conscious all the way up till he finally bleed to death.  THAT is how powerful somebody can be on PCP.

Quoting:


There is a difference between "down" and "no longer resisting".  As long as he is still resisting, they have to have some way to subdue him.  If you read the transcripts, they had 4 cops on top of him and he was STILL resisting.  350+ pounds can do a lot of damage, even if it is just rolling over on top of them.

And no, pepper spray dpes NOT usually do the job if somebody is under the influence of drugs, especially one as strong as PCP.  If PCP can relieve enough pain so a vet can do minor surgery on a horse, imagine how well it works on a human.

I remember a story a cop told me in 1984.  A few months before in LA they had a guy on PCP jump off of the 4th floor of a building, and landed on his feet.  He totally shattered his legs from his ankles to his hips, and did massive internal injuries.  When they reached the guy, he was still trying to get up and walk!  In fact, he was conscious all the way up till he finally bleed to death.  THAT is how powerful somebody can be on PCP.
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Quoting:
Why didn't they just kick him in the 'nads?   ???

That will bring any man to his knees.  :-[End Quote

Quoting:
"Maybe they should have used Kryptonite that will weaken any Superman"THEY BEAT HIM SO BAD HE DIED ::)There had to been a point wear he was unconcious if HE DIED! ::)
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Try reading the update that Rice posted in here.

The initial autopsy showed *NO* internal injuries.  Also they showed *NO* bruising on the body, only on the legs and arms.  By all appearances he died of heart failure because of an existing heart problem and high blood pressure.  I am sure that was not helped at all by the coke and PCP, both of which are known to cause heart attacks

Once again, the press jumped the gun.  They already are convincing people that the Police are guilty, even though every fact since the incident occured seems to say otherwise.

Quoting:
But to me, this just gives me another reason to believe that drugs are bad.  It was the drugs that caused him to fight so strongly, and also the drugs that allowed him to take such punishment before being subdued.
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Drugs ARE bad sometimes; obviously so in this case. The funny thing is that this gives me another reason to believe that the war on drugs is bad.  It gives the police an excuse to harass people on the suspicion of drug activity which breeds fundamental distrust among blacks.  When fueled by alcohol or drugs this can result in the sort of resistance which probably cost Mr. Jones his life.  Don't get me wrong; he was obviously not being harassed in this case and as far as I can tell they did what they had to do.  But drugs alone do not account for the fierce distrust of the police that permeates urban neighborhoods.  It IS a "war", after all, which makes anyone involved in drugs an enemy of the police.  It doesn't have to be that way.  Let the police focus on the idiots like Jones who can't keep his problems to himself.

Quoting:

RnRF - It's easy to look back and come up with the sort of thing Roger Websters should have said, though his reply was pretty crass under the circumstances - a "please look at all the evidence before jumping to conclusions" would probably have been less inflammatory.

Phil
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Thanks Phil, I agree :)

Quoting:
The coroner said that the death was a homicid
e but that the police officers shouldn't be regarded as having acted inappropriately...
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I liked what a reverand had to say last night..."Some black leaders brainwash young blacks to think white cops are always gonna be agaisnt them." and HE is african-american :o

Quoting:Just a couple of questions.  Does the news ever show when a white man gets beaten by the cops?  I know it happens so why doesn't it make the news as often as an African-American getting beaten?  
End Quote

That usually happens on "COPS" and I don't know if that's exactly "news" ;D

Quoting:
I am not asking this to be mean, but have you ever had training in how to arrest a combative suspect?  I have.  And trust me, *NOTHING* can prepare a cop in how to arrest a combative 350+ pound man on PCP.
End Quote

Mr 80s - I dont take that to b a mean question at all - perfectly logical thing to ask.
No - I havent had any training of the sort.  My knowledge comes only from a policeman, and an undercover drugs officer, both of whom I dated.  So I know the basics of their training and their limits that they are allowed to go to in order to restrain a prisoner.  

Actually - on the subject of restraint - this week on Aussie TV footage was shown (a little too often for my liking) of an event (but I missed whether it was in my state or another one - maybe one of the Aussies know ?) - basically it was your standard "family being held in a house by a dunken drugged irate father and former husband".  He was standing out in the front yard screaming and yelling at cops and I dont know how long it had been going on but one cop decided enough was enough.  So he revved up his car and sped across the lawn running over the guy  - and then other cops were able to jump on him and restrain him.

Havent heard any uproar from the general public yet !!!   Also havent heard if the cop will be charged or whether it was considered a normal form of restraint !!

I think what it all comes down to is that we as the public want our cops to act like cops and to protect us from the bad guys.  But we also want them to not kill the bad guys unless its really neccessary.

Am I correct in saying that I read there was in fact a black cop among the group in this latest thing ?  If so then it isnt really a race issue is it ?  People just try to make a black/white thing as soon as they can.  And dont worry it happens here too.

The cop I dated was an aboriginal.  Whenever he had to arrest another aboriginal the criminal would immediately scream that he was being racially picked on.  How is being arrested by your second cousin racial abuse ??  How is being caught stealing jewellery from a store racial abuse ?  A thief is a thief.

Fact is regardless of colour if a person is a criminal - well hell - they are a criminal.  And regardless of colour if a person is a cop - they are a cop.  And if a criminal is going to be arrested - stands to reason it will be by a cop who may or may not be the same colour as them.

Quoting:

Am I correct in saying that I read there was in fact a black cop among the group in this latest thing ?  If so then it isnt really a race issue is it ?  People just try to make a black/white thing as soon as they can.  And dont worry it happens here too.

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MannixBabe...

You are correct in that one of the six officers in Cincy is a black guy.  But what will happen is that he will be branded by the black community as an "Uncle Tom" or as a "House N*gger".

You see, in the USA, prominent black leaders would LIKE you to think that they are working for the betterment of blacks and other minorities.  But in fact, most of them are out to protect their political careers and back-door dealings with the Democratic party.

In the USA, black people who:

 -Are republicans or "conservatives"
 -Are against "affirmative action"
 -Are for school accountability
 -Are for school vouchers to allow kids to escape bad schools
 -Are policemen who happen to get into it with a minority

...are branded by black "leaders" as Uncle Toms or House N*ggers.

Basically what these "leaders" are saying is that black people can not think for themselves and that if they do not follow the Democratic Party line, they are sellouts.

The effect of what these "leaders" are doing is to cement a stereotype where people think "all blacks are the same" and that "blacks cant think for themselves".  Both of these thoughts are repugnant to me and it is sad that they are perpetuated by "leaders" within the minority community.  >:(

Quoting:
Am I correct in saying that I read there was in fact a black cop among the group in this latest thing ?  If so then it isnt really a race issue is it ?  People just try to make a black/white thing as soon as they can.  And dont worry it happens here too.
End Quote

Yes, there WAS a black cop in the dogpile trying to make the arrest.

Also, right before he made the attack, Mr. Jones yelled "Whiteboy Redneck!".  That sounds like a racial slur to me!

I do not have a problem with the NAACP or any other group jumping up and down when there is a *REAL* racial incident.  Raceist cops do not deserve to wear the uniform, carry a gun, or live in civilized society if you ask me.

But when they jump on each and every incident and defend it, even after it was shown that the person brought it upon themselves, then I have a problem.  Both Mr. King and Mr. Jones had past criminal records.  Both were resisting arrest, and people they were with were not injured in any way.  Both were under the influence of drugs/alcohol.  Both of them charged the cops.

I just wish the NAACP, ACLU, and every other alphabet soup organization would look for facts BEFORE they scream at the cops about an incident being raceist.  It is because of these types of incidents that I do not give them any credability anymore.

Quoting:
Yes people forget racism bends both ways.

Having grown up with people of all races I had never actually encountered racism until I moved to England and found myself the only white person living in a black suburb.  I was chased by guys swinging heavy chains, they set fire to my shop while I was inside it, they set fire to my frot door while I was home etc etc etc. \End Quote

MannixBabe,

Why did you move to a segregated neighborhood?  What happened to you would have been quite predictable.

I'm not defending the scum that hassled you.  Just curious as to why you went there.  ???

In my hometown I am one of few whites who has a "ghetto pass"  8) but even so, I would NEVER decide to live there.