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Subject: Death with Dignity
With this legal battle going on in Florida whether someone has the right to pull the plug on someone in a comatose state, I thought that this would be a good topic for discussion (even though it may have been discussed before). What are your feelings on assisted suicide, living wills, and/or the sitituation in Florida? I will post my response later.
Cat
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
For suicide, I believe that my life is about the only thing I truly own. I reserve the right to use it or end it as I see fit so far as it "harm none". I don't see how any infringement on the right of suicide could be be equated with freedom.
With assisted suicide, I think the same applies. My friend helping me carry out my rights should not be punished. There is a problem proving this and society has the right to investigate to prevent murder.
When it comes to 'pulling the plug' it really should be a medical decision based on the best interests of the patient and other potential patients (who might benefit more from limited resources). I do believe that when a life is being actively maintained, removing that help is not the same as killing. For example, if I come accross a person not breathing, I can keep that person alive artificially for a reasonable period (CPR - If you can't, learn!) If I eventually get tired, I am quite within my rights to stop. Under UK law I don't think I can be held accountable for the death and I personally wouldn't feel responsible.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Good question, Cat.
I think living wills are a good thing. I don't want to live in a vegatative state and would hate it if there weren't such a thing.
As for assisted suicide, my personal beliefs tell me that suicide is wrong and I could neither do it nor could I assist. I can't support it, either, but if it is legalized I will just choose not to participate. I figure it is between the person and God (the God of his/her choice...don't want to start a religion fight, here ;))
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Regarding Living wills: they are a wonderful thing to have. They avoid situations like what is going on in Florida.
Regarding the situation in Florida:
Form what I understand, this woman has been in this condition for several years. And "pulling the plug" would result in death by eventual starvation and/or choking to death.
I guess, you have to ask yourself which is worse for her: continuing in the condition she has been in for years and dying naturally, or being starved to death. It seems the answer should be obvious in this case.
I guess since she can't "say" what she wants, wouldn't pulling the plug and starving her to death be considered...murder? not to mention, how can someone live with themselves knowing they caused this women to die a horrible torturous death like that?
Its a hard call. But I think in the case of the Florida woman, I would not allow pulling the plug. Simply because how do we know she wants to die? And how do you justify starving a woman, who cant speak for herself, to death?
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
I dont know the story in Florida - anyone have a link ? But I do know my definate and lifelong feelings on the subject at hand.
My mums partner has a living will as he has a degenerative genetic disease and one day his neck will snap in his sleep and he will likely wake without the power of speech etc.
He has had the living will since he was 18.
Mum and I both carry letters in our wallets stating we are not to be kept alive by machines in the event of an accident - and we have a written understanding between us that the "pull the plug" decision will be made whether its legal or not.
I feel there is nothing worse than "well meaning" family members keeping a body alive when that body has no quality of life whatsoever. They are keeping it alive for their own sakes as they are not ready to say goodbye. How is that fair to the person lying there in a vegetative state ?
I dont doubt miracle recoverys do occur. The guy that awoke in the US after all that time. But thats not the norm.
The girl who use to baby sit me in the 70's had a car crash in 1980 and was in a coma for over 10 years. Then her parents switched the machine off and she remained alive. Now they are in a quandry because she is breathing on her own - but is still completely vegetative. The both had to quit their jobs decades ago to sit with her all day. They live on unemployment pensions.
So who is the vegetable ? The person lying in the bed ? or the parents sitting by that bed all day every day waiting for a sign of life for 20 years or more ?
Re assisted suicide. We have a doctor here who invented a suicide machine. Its set up so that the person can do it themselves if they absolutely have to - or with the help of a friend or doctor if required. Its a computer connected to a lethal dosage of drugs. They have to key in a series of Yes/No questions before the drug is administered.
Its legal in only one state (that I know off) and you have to move to that state and get a regular doctor who is aware of your intentions and see that doctor for at least a year before your intended death.
Its not for people who just dont feel like living this week. Its for those who have been diagnosed with life threatening degenerative diseases that will eventually render them unable to care for themselves. People who want to die with dignity before it reaches the stage of your children changing your adult sized diaper. People who still have the ability to plan out the last stages of their life and live them the way they want to live them.
If a person asked me to help them out I would not hesitate. I would understand it is not a decision they have come to lightly. In my state it would be illegal. So far there has only been one trial here that I know of and the husband was given an extremely light sentence that had already been served by the time the trial was over.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
That poor woman has been in that state for 13 years. If I ever get in that condition board members here have permission to poke me to death with a salad fork if thats what it takes to free me up.
There is actually a lot to this story, some of it pretty darn ugly. The parents don't want the "plug" pulled and the husband does. The state of Florida got involved and passed a law that forbids the husbands choice of letting her die. He claims that they spoke of this type and would have wanted it, the parents say not. Also parents claim that he just wants the money, how much he would get I have no idea since the cost must have run up into the millions by now. The parents said they offerd to pay him off with what he would get but he has refused. Kinda wierd on there part claiming he is doing if for greed but has turned it down. ???
This is an unfortunate incident but that woman should be allowed to join whatever god she chose.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:This is an unfortunate incident but that woman should be allowed to join whatever god she chose.
End Quote
Thats just it.
She has no way of expressing what she wants.
Therefore, how does the husband know she wants to be killed off or not?
Considering her husband has also denied the State to perform and immediate autopsy upon her death also poses some questions as to his intentions. Why is he so reluctant to an autopsy being performed? Is he hiding something? And yes there is a lot of money involved. Thats another red flag in my opinion.
This woman has been in this state for several years and has absolutely no say in what happens to her, and considiering the alternative (starvation and/or choking to death), how can anyone cononde pulling the plug on this case?
To me, it seems like an action of "convienience" for her husband.
And if starving and/or choking a woman to death becasue she is disabled and has no say in what she wants is now acceptable, God help us all.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Several years? ??? Sevearl years is 3 or 4 or maybe 5 of them. She has been in this state for 13 years.
13 years of not being able to state what she wants, 13 years of no converasations, no hand signals, not even eyeblinking as an form of communication, 13 years of laying lifeless in a hospital bed, 13 years of not solid food, no sipping of water, no control of her bladder or bowells.
Treatment has been involved in the hopes of her recovery and there has been no progress, I ask you, is this life?
This selfish husband is one patiant greedy bugger, most people of greed want the cash quick, they don't often wait 13 years, and they ususally don't refuse the offer of cash like her parents did. I'm sorry but the "selfish" and "greed" lables are having trouble sticking to this guy, at least for me.
Quoting:Therefore, how does the husband know she wants to be killed off or not?
End Quote
Conversations like this between married people is very common, conversations like this between child and parents is not. My wife knows what to do with me in case like this.
And final question, what about the Autopsy? Why does the state feel it's necessary, what good will it do? We know the state she has been in for the past 13 years. I see know reason there should be one, the only thing it does is cut up the body.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
Several years? ??? Sevearl years is 3 or 4 or maybe 5 of them.End Quote
yes several. Had it been simply 3,4,or 5, that would have be "a few".
Quoting:
13 years of not being able to state what she wants, 13 years of no converasations, no hand signals, not even eyeblinking as an form of communication, 13 years of laying lifeless in a hospital bed, 13 years of not solid food, no sipping of water, no control of her bladder or bowells.
Treatment has been involved in the hopes of her recovery and there has been no progress, I ask you, is this life?End Quote
It is life. Not a good one, but she is alive. Thats what makes this such a hard case to call. She is alive, but cannot speak for herself. Starving her to death is not the answer.
This has the potential for creating a "slippery slope", that could affect anyone and everyone who is in a condition like hers. Should we starve them all without knowing what they want?
I think what I am having such a hard time accepting is the way she will die if the plug were pulled. I just cannot get myself to accept it.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
Several years? ??? Sevearl years is 3 or 4 or maybe 5 of them. She has been in this state for 13 years.
13 years of not being able to state what she wants, 13 years of no converasations, no hand signals, not even eyeblinking as an form of communication, 13 years of laying lifeless in a hospital bed, 13 years of not solid food, no sipping of water, no control of her bladder or bowells.
Treatment has been involved in the hopes of her recovery and there has been no progress, I ask you, is this life?
This selfish husband is one patiant greedy bugger, most people of greed want the cash quick, they don't often wait 13 years, and they ususally don't refuse the offer of cash like her parents did. I'm sorry but the "selfish" and "greed" lables are having trouble sticking to this guy, at least for me.
Conversations like this between married people is very common, conversations like this between child and parents is not. My wife knows what to do with me in case like this.
And final question, what about the Autopsy? Why does the state feel it's necessary, what good will it do? We know the state she has been in for the past 13 years. I see know reason there should be one, the only thing it does is cut up the body.
End Quote
:(It seems to me like the worst thing possible would be if she IS conscious.I mean,not being able to express even the simplest things you want to do,like what you want to wear,what you want to eat,what you want to listen to or watch on TV--as well as not being able to go outside and experience fun things like restaurants,fairs,trips,etc.I mean,wouldn't that be just like being in prison,if she's conscious?Only worse because of not being able to move.I think most people ,if they were like that,would want to die.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
I think most people ,if they were like that,would want to die.
End Quote
But, it goes back to original dilemna of this situation: What gives you the right the starve someone to death because you think thats what they would want?
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Thanks all for responding to this thread. I see that it has stirred up some good discussions (that is what I intended it to do ;)). As for my feelings, if I were to get into an accident and became comatose, I would want a fighting chance. That is, I wouldn't want the plug to be pulled too quickly. But, if I were in that state for a long period of time (like say, 13 years-actually much sooner than that), yes, I would want the plug pulled. To me, it would not be fair to my loved ones to sit vigil at my bedside year after year-not to mention the cost of hospital and medical bills.
As for assisted suicide, yes, I am for that too. If someone has a dehabilitating, terminal disease, I think that person has the right to say whether he/she wants to end his/her own life. Many people can't take pain. If it frees that person from constant, agonizing pain, I don't see a problem with that. Many want their loved ones to remember them as being lively and loving as they were before the disease got a hold of them. They don't want their loved ones to remember them as someone who can't move, who must be fed (sometimes intervisously), who can't even remember them.
As for the woman in Florida, I don't think that the state should have intervined. I think the husband (who probably knows what his wife would want better than her parents) has every right to decide.
A question for those who do not agree with assisted suicide-What would you do if someone you loved was in extreme pain for so long and begged you to end it? Just something to think about.
Cat
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
But, it goes back to original dilemna of this situation: What gives you the right the starve someone to death because you think thats what they would want?
End Quote
This goes back to reasons for needing a living will. It would stop all this fighting.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
A question for those who do not agree with assisted suicide-What would you do if someone you loved was in extreme pain for so long and begged you to end it? Just something to think about.
End Quote
That is a tough question. I don't believe in assisted suicide and, in my opinion stemming from my religious beliefs, it would lead me to hell. I would like to say that I would refuse to help, but you never know how you would react unless you are faced with that situation. I hope that doesn't happen, though...I can't imagine the pain for the loved one not just the sick loved one.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
I've been reading what her parents have to say, and it seems to me that they think she could do well with proper treatment, but her husband is refusing to let her get this treatment. The parents also have said that she is not a vegetable. If I find the link I'll post it, but I don't know it off the top of my head.
While I don't agree with pulling the plug in this woman's situation, I don't necessarily think it's always wrong. If someone is so far gone that the machine is the only thing keeping them alive and they have no hope of recovery, then by all means, pull the plug. Why spend thousands of dollars a day to postpone the inevitable? In situations that are drastic, but not as severe as what I just mentioned, I think it's up to the family and the person's living will. Each case is different and should be treated accordingly.
But I guess one thing that's always scared me: I remember hearing a story back in jr high about a woman who was in a coma and eventually recovered. In her particular case, she was aware of what was going on around her, but she had no way of responding to it. In her story, she said that she heard people talking about pulling the plug on her and she wanted more than anything to show them that she was alive, but she couldn't. I guess she must have somehow survived if she lived to tell about it, but can you imagine how scary that would be?
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
This goes back to reasons for needing a living will. It would stop all this fighting.
End Quote
True, living wills are an excellent thing to have.
But...in this case, it doesn't apply since she doesn't have one.
And for people to be speaking on her behalf and calling for her to be starved to death without her being able to respond is dispicable to me.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
I've been reading what her parents have to say, and it seems to me that they think she could do well with proper treatment, but her husband is refusing to let her get this treatment. The parents also have said that she is not a vegetable. If I find the link I'll post it, but I don't know it off the top of my head.
End Quote
The women had been in many different treatment programs, remeber there is a 13 year history to this story. Also, the medical opinions are that she is not recoverable. The parents are seeing some movement from her but Drs. have explained that is natural muscle and nerve action, it is a misnomer that people in a coma lie compeltly still.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
And for people to be speaking on her behalf and calling for her to be starved to death without her being able to respond is dispicable to me.
End Quote
I know, I can't imagine starving to death. It seems so inhumane...I just feel bad for all parties involved, but especially for the wife who can't communicate her wishes.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
I do think starving to death is an awful route to go, even is she has no cognitive abilities there is still some very harsh reactions taking place. I would think a lethal injection would be the humane thing to do.
If it were my wife, after about 13 weeks, (screw the 13 YEARS) I would have slipped a big jawbreaker in her mouth and let her go naturally.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
I know, I can't imagine starving to death. It seems so inhumane...I just feel bad for all parties involved, but especially for the wife who can't communicate her wishes.
End Quote
It must be so awful for her parents.
About 10 years ago a close friend of mine gave birth to a little girl who had no brain stem. The doctor informed my friends that their daughter would always be in a vegetative state and advised them to give permission to withdraw feeding. They said she would die within a day or two. That little girl survived for 16 days. I can't describe what they went through waiting for her to pass away. :'(
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
The problem I have with this case and the assisted suicide argument is that she is breathing on her own, her heart is beating on it's own, the only thing keeping her alive is the feeding tube. If it were me, I would want to die. My husband AND my parents know of my wishes, as I do theirs. My grandfather was on his deathbed from cancer and he pulled his feeding tube out. He was unable to communicate, but we all knew that he didn't want it to be replaced so we let him go. It was the hardest decision we had to make, but I honestly feel it was the right one. In his case, the doctor prescribed enough morphine to keep him in a vegetative state so I truly believe he felt no pain.
I also have to say that I have a problem with GW's bro stepping in and having the feeding tube replaced. If there was any chance of her "recovering" from the state she is in, the damage done to her internal organs after not receiving nutrition for (I think) 6 days will be devastating.
BTW, Taoist, you might want to check the laws on CPR. In most states in the US, once you start, you must continue until someone more qualified takes over. In my case, as a certified EMT, once I start, I cannot quit until a higher ranking EMT/doctor/nurse takes over. Whether you are trained or not, the laws here in IL, are the same for everyone. If I quit, I could be held responsible for that person's death. In many states, I am required to give aid (Duty to Act laws) to anyone I see that needs it, and must continue until someone higher is available to take over.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
This is a very emotional topic, and one that will not go away any time soon.
I still remember the long court battle over Karen Ann Quinlin, which first established many of the current "Right To Die" and living will laws.
Terri Schiavo has been in this state since 1990. From the best I can find, there is no clear cause as to why she is the way she is. In 1990 she had a heart imbalance, which caused significant brain damage. Since that time, she has been in a semi-comatose state.
Unlike Karen Ann Quinlin and many others, Terri Schiavo is *NOT* on life support. She is not on a respirator nor any other life support equipment. The only things she recieves is food and water through feeding tubes. But at the same time, the brain damage is so severe that she will never recover.
Her Husband is Michael Schiavo. As part of a medical malpractice suit, his wife was awarded over $750,000. But part of the settlement is that *HE* will not get a dime of it. That alone is highly suspicious.
Add to that the fact that he now has a fiancee', and 2 children with her. And the $750k he won has mostly gone to legal fees to have her life support cut off.
I believe in living wills. But in the abscense of such a will, the patient's life is the main importance. Since there is no such will, the right thing to do is to take care of her, as long as there is still brain function. I am a believer of brain death, but that is not the case here.
I encourage everybody to make living wills, and also to donate organs to help others live. And remember to make several copies, enough for your parents, spouse, and in-laws. This way, there is little chance of one family member hijacking your choice.
And yes, it is a hard choice to make. My fiancee was taken off of life support in 1998 after she suffered brain death due to complications of viral pheumonia. But since "living wills" had been talked about with the family, there was no question, and she passed on peacefully.
So even if you do not care, make the choices for donation and life support now, to avoid these problems for those that continue after you.
Subject: Re: Death with Dignity
Quoting:
And yes, it is a hard choice to make. My fiancee was taken off of life support in 1998 after she suffered brain death due to complications of viral pheumonia. But since "living wills" had been talked about with the family, there was no question, and she passed on peacefully.
So even if you do not care, make the choices for donation and life support now, to avoid these problems for those that continue after you.
End Quote
I am sorry for your loss.