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Subject: Hollywood goes too far !
In a recent thread someone asked what is the problem the British have with America?Well on the whole I have only one major problem and this is a perfect example of it.I quote 'I love America.But Hollywood's latest brazen hijacking of history by claiming the Yanks won the Battle of Britain revels a disturbing superiority complex and a profound ignorance' Apparently the latest blockbuster from Tom Cruise is about an American Billy Fiske who joined the R.A.F prior to the Battle of Brtain and apparently goes on to win it pratically single handed.This is a real man who did indeed join the R.A.F in WW2.He had no recorded kills in 42 missions and died whilst landing his plane.Of the 2,945 brave men who fought to save the skies of Britain only 12 were American.The reson I mind? because the Battle of Britain determined the course of history Britain stood utterly alone at that time and if the R.A.F had not won that battle Hitler would have been able to invade Britain and would have controlled Europe. To quote again 'Histroy turned on what happened in this little island.This precious story is to be ludicrously and presumptuously appropriated by a gung-ho American film star'
Again and again Hollywood rewrites our history in films like U-571,Saving Private Ryan and just about anything historical with Mel Gibson in it.The worrying thing is that on the whole these are powerful films that reach an audience who will never read a history book and never realise this is history changed beyond recognition.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Amen to that, sister!
A quick quiz: can anybody name a Hollywood historical (well, set anything before the 1950s) blockbuster which actually got the history right?
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
No!! Titanic and Pearl Harbour are perfect examples. Both sacrifice the true story for the sake of typical Hollywood sensationalism.......
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Unfortuneatly, Hollywood has been doing that since the beginning. They change history, rewrite classics, etc. There is a book (I can't remember the name of it) about what is accurate and what is not with certain movies. There is also a series on the History Channel called "History vs Hollywood." The one movie I can think of that is close to be accurate is 1776. Most of the dialog that was spoken, those people did say at one point in time or another but not necessarly in that context. Martha Jefferson did not go to Philly and the members of Congress did not sing. ;) But, just about everything else is pretty accuate.
Cat
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Gis, you're so right about this, this is a subject that really gets me very angry! I've never actually watched U-571 or Saving Private Ryan on principle because of these distortions.
I think I'll have to avoid this new Tom Cruise effort for the same reasons.
I don't forget that many, many Americans served and died with honour in WWII. I visited an American war cemetery in Normandy with my Dad in 1976 (my dad served in WWII, in the navy, he made a point of taking the whole family there while we were on holiday in Normandy). My Dad was in tears at the scale of the place, just so many thousands of graves, most of them young men in their late teens or early twenties.
What gets me is the Hollywood attitude that the USA was the only country involved on the Allied side in WWII.
The Americans aren't alone in this however. In August 1994 I happened to be in Paris on a business trip, just at the time they were celebrating the 50th anniversary of the liberation from German occupation. The parade went on all day and all night with the floats and vintage vehicles of the French Resistance and Free French Army forces under de Gaulle. I turned to a French woman standing next to me and said "Ou sont les Americains? Ou sont lest Anglais?". She looked at me in disgust and said "La France etait liberee par les Francais!" (France was liberated by the French!). I was so gobsmacked I just stood there with my mouth open.
And one more thing while I'm on the subject - anyone see "Shrek"? In that otherwise enjoyable film, they characterised Robin Hood, a great ENGLISH hero, as (a) a fairy story character and (b) speaking with a FRENCH accent!!
Why? Presumably because Americans have got so used to seeing English actors in "baddie" roles that a good guy with an English accent would confuse them! If I hadn't been in the cinema with my kids I would have got up and walked out.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
The worrying thing is that on the whole these are powerful films that reach an audience who will never read a history book and never realise this is history changed beyond recognition.
End Quote
Ouch.
I watch those kind of movies and read history books too. :( :-/
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Historical accuracy is a joke. It's impossible to achieve. I don't see why people worry about it.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Kenny, complete, 100% accuracy maybe an unachievable goal... but an intentional distortion of known facts such that they present a picture completely false: that isn't so hard to avoid, is it?
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Just to add to my last post: there were plenty of heroes to choose from in the Battle of Britain - so why did they feel they had to turn a relatively insignificant American pilot into a major player?
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
As an historian, I would have to agree with this gripe, mostly. But we have to understand what "historical accuracy" is about. Kenny is right, there is no such thing as totally accurate history, but there is a difference between interpretation and fictionalization. What I and my colleagues do is interpret the facts, which is to say select the ones we think are important and use them to suggest causality. What Hollywood does is take the bare bones of history and turn them into a fictional rendition, most of the time. Even the more accurate films, like Glory or Amistad about a US Civil War black regiment, leave out a lot, shorten time, place events out of real sequence etc. You just gotta remember that history is one think and cinema is another. Unfortunately, Gis is right, most people don't know the difference.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
People, people. Please, Hollywood tells stories, not keep and document historical records. I'm sorry that stupid people can't keep this straight. Hollywoods job is to make money through entertainment productions, they take an small aspect of a big picture and humanize it by creating events that complement the story. Yes, fiction it is but more importantly it's entertainment that people will pay money for. Remember A Beautiful Mind? It was a great movie and should have earned Russel Crowe and Oscar but it came under critisizm for some fictionalization of John Nash's life and experiance. I don't hold that against the movie, they had a story to tell and needed to do it in a way that kept the story flowing (read simple) and our interests.
However I also refused to see Titanic and Pearl Harbor because the stories told were not worthy to justify the bastardization of the context they were placed in.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
and the members of Congress did not sing. ;)
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What about Sonny Bono? ;)
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
I do agree that most of what Hollywood makes is storytelling and nothing more. However, movies like "Breaking Away", "Hoosiers" and "Glory" are probably more accurate than the Biblical sagas of Cecil B. DeMille. I do think that Hollywood should stay clear of Biblical stories, and thus, controversial "epics" on history.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
What about Sonny Bono? ;)
End Quote
I was talking about the Second Continental Congress but your point is well taken. ;)
Cat
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
One thing has to be taken into consideration whenever you talk about hollywood. That fact is that Hollywood has no concept of real life.
How else can you have moveis like "Down And Out In Beverly Hills", which glorifies homelessness. Or many other such movies.
One thing I frequently say since I moved FROM Hollywood is this:
The most frightening thing about Californians is that they THINK they are normal.
Hollywood is heavily driven by politics. If you are not of the right political position, you can't get work there. And if you do speak out against the "flow", you will be called nasty names and most likely never get the coverage of the "correct" actors and actresses. Case and point, how many actors do you remember who supported the war? Not many.
I happened to see the TV Land awards last week (it was replayed as a tribute to John Ritter, who was the MC). In it, Rob Riner got up and gave a scathing attack for 3 or 4 minutes against President Bush. And the audience applauded and gave him a standing ovation. Now imagine "Meathead" giving that speech almost anywhere else in the US. Do you think he would get that kind of response? Not on your life.
Hollywood lives in it's own little bubble of unreality. Most of the people that work in the industry are so deep in that bubble, they loose track of how most people live work and think. They can't imagine how hard it is to make ends meet.
I have been in and around the Industry for years. I have acted, and have worked for a casting company. I have been behind and in front of the camera. As a computer technician, I have installed networks in Barbra Streisand's house. She whines about the evil rich, when just one guest house on her ranch has more space then my entire apartment building.
Just to give an idea, when I got out of the Marines, I worked for 9 months at a clothing store. One day, a famous actor (I will not give his name, but you all know him) came in to get some clothes.
He was amazed at the cost, that you can actually get Levi jeans for under $100. He then asked about Levi 501 jeans. We sold the unwashed ones, so you have to factor in shrinkage. After getting his measurements, he was amazed that he had to get them 2" bigger in the waist and 3" longer. When I explained about shrinkage, he said "But how do they know when to stop shrinking?" ANd the thing is, he was dead serious!
This shows just how out of touch with reality these people are. They live in multi-million dollar mansions, and live in a world where everybody tells them they are right and wonderful. Because of this, they often try and inject their politics beliefs and political views into their movies, then wonder why we laugh at them.
Pearl Harbor is a great example of this. 10% reality, 90% fantasy. I wore a shirt for months after Titanic. It said it very clearly: "The Boat Sank, Get Over It".
A Beautiful Mind is a good esample of this taken the other way. It was a very well done movie, but in making it they overlooked the part of Mr. Nash's insanity that also makes him a raceist. When that came out, suddenly he goes from a sympathetic character to an evil one. How DARE Mr. Crowe make a raceist look good.
TO the original poster, please do not blame us for Hollywood. They are as far out of touch with normal Americans as they are with the Brittish.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Hollywood appears to be as accurate as possible, in Pearl Harbor and Titanic, what did Hollywood do that was inaccurate? they showed the Japanese bomb the cr:op out of 'em, just like it happened; the Titanic sunk just like Hollywood said, and maybe there were 10 other romantic affairs going on. In Private Ryan, they hit dog beach and took 75% casualties, they had to hold the bridge, true story, just like the movie. It's a fact, the Americans did help the RAF kick heineys (no pun intended).
Quoting:
No!! Titanic and Pearl Harbour are perfect examples. Both sacrifice the true story for the sake of typical Hollywood sensationalism.......
End Quote
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
Hollywood appears to be as accurate as possible, in Pearl Harbor and Titanic, what did Hollywood do that was inaccurate? they showed the Japanese bomb the cr:op out of 'em, just like it happened; the Titanic sunk just like Hollywood said, and maybe there were 10 other romantic affairs going on. In Private Ryan, they hit dog beach and took 75% casualties, they had to hold the bridge, true story, just like the movie. It's a fact, the Americans did help the RAF kick heineys (no pun intended).
End Quote
In Private Ryan they showed only Americans hit dog beach with no mention of the British and Canadian troops who were among those 75% you mention.
That's right 12 Americans did fly in the Battle of Britain but they did not win it single handedly as the film would apparently have us believe, which was the point I was making.What about all the other nationalities that also flew? It's the fact that it always has to be America that I find deeply insulting, you completely miss the point
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
Hollywood appears to be as accurate as possible, in Pearl Harbor and Titanic, what did Hollywood do that was inaccurate? they showed the Japanese bomb the cr:op out of 'em, just like it happened; the Titanic sunk just like Hollywood said, and maybe there were 10 other romantic affairs going on. In Private Ryan, they hit dog beach and took 75% casualties, they had to hold the bridge, true story, just like the movie. It's a fact, the Americans did help the RAF kick heineys (no pun intended).
End Quote
The problem is partially that they want the rest of the world to think whatever they do is real.
I actually know a lady in her 70's, who swears Titanic is a true story. She even believes that the necklace dropped off the boat at the end was real! That shows how gullible some people are.
Pearl Harbor commits the problem of compressing time, and leaping over facts to suit it's own needs. The telling about the Doolittle Raid is a great example of this.
As far as American's in England before December 1941, that is true. Just as the American Volunteer Squadron (The "Flying Tigers") was fighting the Japanese in China before then. But they were not the only thing that was at work.
Saving Private Ryan may be based on a real story, but it is a VERY fictionalized account. Just like Titanic, it has a thin shell of truth stretched over a fictional story.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Wow, lot of attitude out there...just expressing an opinion.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
I believe alot of it has to do with WHO is making the film. I'm sure if the Japanese were to do a film about Pearl Harbor, it would be skewed the other way. Also, if Germans decided to do a war about WWII, it would be biased towards them. ANY nationality would probably do the same. It just so happens that a majority of the films shown around the world are made by Hollywood. And, as far as the "fictionalization" of things, if I wanted to watch a 'true' biography of something, I'd go watch the History channel. (which I do) I don't think any of the films (especially war-based ones) are meant to discredit any other nationality. Try to imagine how hard it would be to show the story from the point of view of EVERY nationality involved. Not to mention, how long it would take.
On the subject of historical films, what about Schindler's List? Is it historically accurate? I have my own opinions, based on what a friend's grandfather (who lived in Germany at that time) and mother have said, but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
I believe alot of it has to do with WHO is making the film. I'm sure if the Japanese were to do a film about Pearl Harbor, it would be skewed the other way.
End Quote
You are so right there. In fact, in Japanese schools they are still taught that their involvement in WWII was in response to an unfair oil and resources embargo against them by America. It is because of that they went to war.
Quoting:
Also, if Germans decided to do a war about WWII, it would be biased towards them. ANY nationality would probably do the same. It just so happens that a majority of the films shown around the world are made by Hollywood.
End Quote
Yep, that is true also. You can see it in their propaganda of the time they thought they were both protecting themselves against "polution", and also protecting the world against World Communism.
Frightening to think about, but if Hitler was as savy in international politics as he was in German politics, he might have won. Hitler actually had several ideas that were ahead of their time. He wanted to make Palestine a Jewish state, he wanted to deport all jews to that region of the world. In fact, in the early days of his reign he did just that. Of course, later on when the war started he found it easier to kill them. For that we should NEVER forgive him.
He also saw his biggest enemy as the USSR. His goal was to eliminate Communism. If he had gone to war against the USSR first instead of joining them to attack Polland, things might have been much different instead.
Quoting:
And, as far as the "fictionalization" of things, if I wanted to watch a 'true' biography of something, I'd go watch the History channel. (which I do) I don't think any of the films (especially war-based ones) are meant to discredit any other nationality. Try to imagine how hard it would be to show the story from the point of view of EVERY nationality involved. Not to mention, how long it would take.
On the subject of historical films, what about Schindler's List? Is it historically accurate? I have my own opinions, based on what a friend's grandfather (who lived in Germany at that time) and mother have said, but I'd like to hear what everyone else thinks.
End Quote
Schindler's List is very accurate. Spielberg grew up with a survivor of the Polish camps. He tried for years to get somebody to help him make this movie, and he could never get interest. FInally he decided to do it himself.
While working on the screenplay, somebody told him of almost the exact same story from a book. Speilberg read the book and immediately bought the rights. Several of the survivors helped him work on the screenplay.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
And, as far as the "fictionalization" of things, if I wanted to watch a 'true' biography of something, I'd go watch the History channel. (which I do)
End Quote
I totally agree here. In no way is the movie industry obligated to portray history correctly in movies. If you want to see a history lesson, documentaries would be your best bet. It's not the movie industry's fault when people watch a historical ficion-genre movie and swear that what they just saw was the absolute truth. The disclaimer reads, "Based on a true story," not, "This is exactly what actually happened to these exact people on this exact day at this exact time!"
On a more humorous note, this kind of reminds me of the Friends episode where Brooke Shield's character believes Joey actually is Dr. Drake Ramoray and doesn't understand that he is just playing a part on TV. Then she gets all jealous when he is seen with another woman on Days of Our Lives because she thinks "Drake" is cheating on him. :)
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
In a way, this kind of thing was mentioned in Orwell's 1984 (the burning of books related to the past and anything that goes against Big Brother). I know this isn't as serious but it's the case of a small seed growing to form a weed. What starts off as innocuous tends to get out of control pretty quickly.
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
Wow, lot of attitude out there...just expressing an opinion.
End Quote
bj,
You are right, but I think you missed that the 'attitude' is a reaction to what the original post was about - the same thing : "Attitude".
In your previous post you said : "as accurate as possible, in Pearl Harbor and Titanic, what did Hollywood do that was inaccurate?"
This is a very MINOR example, and way off the original topic, but I believe it sums up the answer to your question quite well...
The scene in Titantic where Jack stands at the bow of the ship with his friend and does the long, loud and highly boorish :
Whoooooo ! Whooooooo Woooooooo..... ::)
Gimme a break ! Talk about putting something in solely for the sake of attracting the younger audience. Think about it. The 'Woo-Woo' is, in historical terms, a VERY modern occurrence. Look back, and did you really find anyone crapping on like that prior to the 80's ? Or maybe the 70's ?
We are talking about 1912 here. Very conservative times. No matter how much of a tearaway l'il old Jack was painted to be, compared to today's behaviours he would nonetheless been a comparitive saint.
It simply would not have happened. ::)
Rant over, sorry....
FB :)
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
The scene in Titantic where Jack stands at the bow of the ship with his friend and does the long, loud and highly boorish :
Whoooooo ! Whooooooo Woooooooo..... ::)
Gimme a break ! Talk about putting something in solely for the sake of attracting the younger audience. Think about it. The 'Woo-Woo' is, in historical terms, a VERY modern occurrence. Look back, and did you really find anyone crapping on like that prior to the 80's ? Or maybe the 70's ?
End Quote
Interesting point, Fuss. :)
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
I know this isn't as serious but it's the case of a small seed growing to form a weed. What starts off as innocuous tends to get out of control pretty quickly.
End Quote
Too true! Isn't the Hollywood motto "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" ? ::)
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
Too true! Isn't the Hollywood motto "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" ? ::)
End Quote
AND the media ! May I add ! >:( ::)
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
People are people, then and now, liberals, conservatives - probably always existed. Don't suppose any of us were on the Titanic, maybe in another life, but standing on the stem of the ship seemed like fun, I'd of done it!
Quoting:
bj,
You are right, but I think you missed that the 'attitude' is a reaction to what the original post was about - the same thing : "Attitude".
We are talking about 1912 here. Very conservative times. No matter how much of a tearaway l'il old Jack was painted to be, compared to today's behaviours he would nonetheless been a comparitive saint.
It simply would not have happened. ::)
Rant over, sorry....
FB :)
End Quote
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
Schindler's List is very accurate. Spielberg grew up with a survivor of the Polish camps. He tried for years to get somebody to help him make this movie, and he could never get interest. FInally he decided to do it himself.
While working on the screenplay, somebody told him of almost the exact same story from a book. Speilberg read the book and immediately bought the rights. Several of the survivors helped him work on the screenplay.
End Quote
That book was "Schindler's Ark" by Thomas Keneally (an Australian author).
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Quoting:
Hollywood appears to be as accurate as possible, in Pearl Harbor and Titanic, what did Hollywood do that was inaccurate?
...
It's a fact, the Americans did help the RAF kick heineys (no pun intended).
End Quote
IMO, it's that attitude which makes what Hollywood does even more annoying: "if Hollywood says so, it must be right or close enought to make no difference"... you believe their distorted histories, therefore they must be right. Take "U571", for example: in the film, Americans did something in which they had no real life participation - they even changed the year in which it happened so that there could be American involvement.
Quoting:
And one more thing while I'm on the subject - anyone see "Shrek"? In that otherwise enjoyable film, they characterised Robin Hood, a great ENGLISH hero, as (a) a fairy story character and (b) speaking with a FRENCH accent!!
End Quote
Just as an aside, it's quite possible that Robin Hood would have had a French accent: it's generally agreed that he was of the nobility, and around the turn of the thirteenth century most of them were very much of Norman (i.e. French) descent. He'd have been fifth- or sixth-generation "English", of course, so he'd still count as "one of us", but...
Phil
Subject: Re: Hollywood goes too far !
Anyone ever see Fargo? It's funny, 'cause at the beginning it explains how the movie was a true story. It wasn't.
"This is a true story. The events depicted in this film took place in Minnesota in 1987. At the request of the survivors, the names have been changed. Out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred."