Quoting:

How does everyone feel about current events and homosexuals?
End Quote

How much time do ya have... ;)

Quoting:
Gays are human beings. Therefore they should have exactly the same rights as any other human being. Exactly. The Same.
End Quote

Yeah, what he said!  ;D

The point Hoeveel mentioned demonstrates a danger when considering rights.  I'm all for letting gay couples register their pertnerships and gain the same 'human' rights as anyone.  The problem is, if the legislation is too specific, it means that heterosexual couples have less rights.   All rights legislation should be thought out to apply to everyone and should set out rights that human being can expect without mentioning gays, black, women, etc.

Quoting:
I hear the Anglican Church are going crackers over the gay bishop that has been appointed. This is definitely a worldwide theological problem because, whether this is a politically correct world or not, the bible is clearly against homosexuality.

I really believe that this could leave damaging consequences to the Church.

My thoughts on homosexuality are one's of indifference. I am an heterosexual but believe that sexuality is an individuals choice.
End Quote

Are they against gays totally or do they accept that people have 'gay feelings' and are understandable and don't act on them and commit sodomy?  And is the gay bishop 'active' in that sense?

Quoting:
Are they against gays totally or do they accept that people have 'gay feelings' and are understandable and don't act on them and commit sodomy?  And is the gay bishop 'active' in that sense?
End Quote

I don't think the homosexuality issue with the church would have been too much of a problem if the person in question was not a bishop. I'm not sure whether he is 'active'.

I saw a reverend from Australia on the television and he said that homosexuality is clearly against the bible. I guess they are against the 'sin' itself not the people that commit it.

Quoting:
This is definitely a worldwide theological problem because, whether this is a politically correct world or not, the bible is clearly against homosexuality.
End Quote

Did you know the Bible "clearly" states that you can't wear a cloak of two or more colors? It's in the same passage as the homosexuality = abomination thingy.

Quoting:All rights legislation should be thought out to apply to everyone and should set out rights that human being can expect without mentioning gays, black, women, etc.End Quote

Right. Why cause more problems by making special legislation for a particular group of people; legislation which will inevitably keep this group of people segregated in the eyes of society?

Quoting:
Did you know the Bible "clearly" states that you can't wear a cloak of two or more colors? It's in the same passage as the homosexuality = abomination thingy.
End Quote

No I did not know about cloaks in the bible, John Harvey.

I think you are trying to make the point that some things in the bible are not relevant and what you said in that instance is correct. I'm not saying that homosexuality is right or wrong (I stated my opinion in my first post). I am second-guessing the Anglican Church's perspective on homosexuality.

Quoting:
Right. Why cause more problems by making special legislation for a particular group of people; legislation which will inevitably keep this group of people segregated?
End Quote

Exactly, and hence the problems with the current (proposed?) British legislation.  It will segregate heterosexual couples who aren't married but can't get the rights under homosexually specific laws.  I'm sure this will be rectified later under even more legislation but it would help to get it right first time.

Quoting:
But, Religion is a private club.  I think they have the right to set their own rules for joining.End Quote

LOL. I hadn't thought of religion in that way before. I can just imagine God's Guardians standing by the door exclaiming 'If you're not wearing a tie, you're not coming in'.  ;D

Quoting:

Did you know the Bible "clearly" states that you can't wear a cloak of two or more colors? It's in the same passage as the homosexuality = abomination thingy.
End Quote

Hi John, I would like to know where this reference is if you can tell me. I looked in Chap. 20 of Leviticus (where homosexual acts are condemned) and found nothing of the cloak thing.

Quoting:

Leviticus has a lot to answer for.

End Quote

Hi Gore. What you must understand is that "Leviticus" (translation: "matters of the Levites")  was written at a very specific time to a very specific people. God was separating  the nation of Israel away from the rest of the world and instructing them on how to worship Him. Levitical law was meant for Israel alone.

Now, the coming of Christ has done away with the Levitical preisthood. Christ "fulfilled" the law of Leviticus thus doing away with it.

Quoting:
So technically modern Christians should completely disregard Leviticus?
End Quote

I don't know.

Quoting:
So technically modern Christians should completely disregard Leviticus?
End Quote

I'm sure I could Google this, but I'm too lazy.  The way it was explained to me is that in the New Testament, Jesus died so that all the stuff in the Old Testament was cancelled out so everyone was forgiven for their sins (I probably got the semantics all wrong here).  

I agree with the people who say that this is primarily a religious argument, and it shouldn't have a place in a nation where church and state are supposed to be separate.  That doesn't mean that all religious ideals (i.e. don't kill people) are bad though.

Playing devil's advocate, if you look at the "right wing wacko" point of view, even though I don't think gay sex is "deviant" by any means (not that I practice it or anything), the language of the law may open it up for organizations like NAMBLA to justify raping little boys and for Farmer Joe Bob to justify banging his cow.  More realistically though, as previously stated, it could lead to unwanted restrictions of heterosexual rights.

Quoting:


I'm sure I could Google this, but I'm too lazy.  The way it was explained to me is that in the New Testament, Jesus died so that all the stuff in the Old Testament was cancelled out so everyone was forgiven for their sins (I probably got the semantics all wrong here).  

End Quote

So your saying xians should completely disregard the Old Testament altogether?

Quoting:


So your saying xians should completely disregard the Old Testament altogether?
End Quote

Dunno man...I believe in God but I don't consider myself a Christian or a Jew.  I've read some of the Old Testament, and to be perfectly honest with you, it's really loopy.

The way it should be interpreted, in my humble opinion, is as a set of stories, and not as some written-in-stone religious doctrine.  I don't think there are enough sheep and pigeons in the world to sacrifice as prescribed in the Old Testament, anyway :P

I don't think it should be disregarded, I just think, from what I learned from others and what I read, that Jesus died for the sins of his followers and that includes all the stuff in the Old Testament.  

Quoting:


Hi John, I would like to know where this reference is if you can tell me. I looked in Chap. 20 of Leviticus (where homosexual acts are condemned) and found nothing of the cloak thing.


End Quote

I heard it on the radio some time ago from someone who was advocating gay rights. I won't be able to cite where it was in the Bible. I just know I heard it on the radio. I do know that there are a lot of goofy laws in the Bible (Did you hear their extensive laws on who pays whom when a servant is gored by an Ox?)

Quoting:
I am friends with gays and lesbians alike and they are normal law-abiding people.  They just like having sex with different people than I do ;DEnd Quote

I know plenty of lesbians who like having sex with the same people as I do.

Quoting:


I know plenty of lesbians who like having sex with the same people as I do.
End Quote

Yes, I know...they have excellent taste in women 8)

Quoting:
I think gays want too many "extra" or "special" rights. I think that is why many people are tired of supporting their cause. The best example would be with those "special" criminal laws, which says that if you hit someone who is not a homosexual you get one set of penalties, but if you hit someone who is a homosexual you get a different set of penalties. If gays want to be the same, then they should stop asking for "extra" benifits. As for marrige, why do gays need that word so much? What is wrong with "civil union"? As long as they get the same benifits, why do they want to take a word which describes a man and woman's commitment and change the definition? It is an attack on normal relationships. It has more to do with homosexual interest groups generating money by creating controversy. Gays are being victimized by their own support groups. Homosexual special interest groups are about to become as bad as those "christian republican youth" groups. You know, the ones who try and shove god down your throat by teaching creationism in public schools. Gays are adopting the same tactics.
End Quote

That's awfully harsh. Just because marriage should apply to same sex partners, you throw them in with the Christian right? That's hardly fair. They aren't overriding the first ammendment to force their beliefs on anyone.

Quoting:

That's awfully harsh. Just because marriage should apply to same sex partners, you throw them in with the Christian right? That's hardly fair. They aren't overriding the first ammendment to force their beliefs on anyone.
End Quote

That comment about "young christian rebublicans" was not aimed at homosexuals. It was aimed at the special interest groups which "advocate" their interests. The more I look at special interest groups in general, the more evil I see. These groups get to a point, where their purpose is continued sustainment of the group, not advocacy of the cause. They need to collect money, so they come up with something to tick off their base, and in comes the money. From what I see on TV and read in the papers, it appears the gay special interest groups and right wing special interest groups use the same tactics. My whole point was, if gays get a civil union with all the same benifits as married people, then they won. What is in a word, why fight over a word? I think it is the special interest groups tossing gasoline on a fire.

I guess I am just tired of gay people who think they have to convince everyone their lifestyle is good. When was the last time you saw a parade of heterosexual people celebrating thier sexuality? If one passed down my street, I would think someone had a screw lose. Let the sex part get back in the bedroom and out of public policy.

Quoting:
I don't think anyone should be able to tell you what you can or cannot do in the privacy of your own home. And imo, marriage is a word reserved for the bond between man and woman, if you want to make up some new word for the eternal bond between 2 men or 2 women that is EQUAL to a marriage, go ahead. Marriage isn't that word though.
End Quote

Well, in my opinion, it's just a word.  'Marry' just means to 'join together'; when you pull a zip up, the two sides 'marry'.

Quoting:


Well, in my opinion, it's just a word.  'Marry' just means to 'join together'; when you pull a zip up, the two sides 'marry'.
End Quote

They're gonna have to change the dictionary definition then.

Personally I think that gays should be allowed to commit to each other and be in a legal union.  But I'm skeptical over calling it "marriage".

Quoting:
They're gonna have to change the dictionary definition then.

Personally I think that gays should be allowed to commit to each other and be in a legal union.  But I'm skeptical over calling it "marriage".
End Quote

This is quite interesting, Rice. Why are you sceptical over calling two homosexuals 'joining together' a marriage?

I'm not challenging you. I'm interested in your views.  :)

Quoting:


This is quite interesting, Rice. Why are you sceptical over calling two homosexuals 'joining together' a marriage?

I'm not challenging you. I'm interested in your views.  :)
End Quote

It's semantics, really.  Marriage has for the longest time been defined as between a man and a woman.  If Oxford or Webster decided to change that tomorrow, though, that's their call :)

I really don't care one way or the other :)  If they're in love and they wanna commit, go for it.  The union should be legal; the wording is something that will probably be debated for a long time though.

Quoting:
It's semantics, really.  Marriage has for the longest time been defined as between a man and a woman.  If Oxford or Webster decided to change that tomorrow, though, that's their call :)End Quote

Okey dokey. I was just curious.  :)

Quoting:
What's wrong with reserving 'holy matrimony' for straights (if you really need a 'special' word for it  ::) )?
End Quote

Maybe homosexuals would feel like they are being patronised to some degree. The only analogy I can give is if two people had cars, instead of calling them both 'cars', I would call one an old banger and the other a posh Porsche.

Quoting:


Maybe homosexuals would feel like they are being patronised to some degree. The only analogy I can give is if two people had cars, instead of calling them both 'cars', I would call one an old banger and the other a posh Porsche.
End Quote

Nah, i'm just saying if 1992thousand doesn't like using the same word for straight and queer marriages then they can use 'holy matrimony'.  Personally, i'd just say 'marriage'.

Quoting:
The word marriage is not just used in terms of people. I have heard businesses use the word when talking about a merger.


End Quote

So much for ruining the sanctity of the word.

Quoting:

So much for ruining the sanctity of the word.
End Quote

Think about what we are discussing here. You are worried about ruining the sanctity of a word?

Quoting:


Think about what we are discussing here. You are worried about ruining the sanctity of a word?
End Quote

I was being sarcastic. People were arguing that 'marriage' was a sacred term that could only apply to the union of two people of the opposite sex. Somehow the word was 'holy'. Hearing Cat's statement, to me, the sanctity is kind of ruined if the term 'marriage' is used by corporate goons.

Quoting:


How much time do ya have... ;)
End Quote

Hi 'fish. I perceive from your mails you may be quite hot on the Christian scene, just wondering where the Creeping Death lyrics fit into your perspective...not getting at you, just interested ( I thought they were blashphemous from an Xian perspective??)

Quoting:

I was being sarcastic. People were arguing that 'marriage' was a sacred term that could only apply to the union of two people of the opposite sex. Somehow the word was 'holy'. Hearing Cat's statement, to me, the sanctity is kind of ruined if the term 'marriage' is used by corporate goons.
End Quote

I understand now, John. Sorry that one went over my head.

Quoting:
Hi 'fish. I perceive from your mails you may be quite hot on the Christian scene, just wondering where the Creeping Death lyrics fit into your perspective...not getting at you, just interested ( I thought they were blashphemous from an Xian perspective??) End Quote

Hi goodsin. Actually I am a rabid Christian...watch out for my bite!! Grrrrrr!!! Just kidding. ;D

Anyway, I used to be a rabid Metallica fan. Until they sold out of course... I think the song which I quote in my avatar, "Creeping Death", is a pretty accurate recounting of the events leading up to the exodus of Israel out of Egypt, for a secular band. Are you familiar with it? The song is sung from the perspective (loosely) of the Angel of Death, whom God sent to claim the first-born of the Egyptians because of pharoah's stubborness. The lyrics aren't blasphemous at all.

Quoting:


I think the song which I quote in my avatar, "Creeping Death", is a pretty accurate recounting of the events leading up to the exodus of Israel out of Egypt, for a secular band. Are you familiar with it? The song is sung from the perspective (loosely) of the Angel of Death, whom God sent to claim the first-born of the Egyptians because of pharoah's stubborness. The lyrics aren't blasphemous at all.
End Quote

Sorry 'fish. I think it's my knowledge of the OT that's failing me, rather than my knowledge of Metallica. Seems like Metallica, upon reflection, draw their 'inspiration' from a number of religious sources; strange, as you say, that this song appears to be technically a 'song of praise' to Old Testament events. Can't see it getting sung in many religious establishments, though...

Quoting:


Sorry 'fish. I think it's my knowledge of the OT that's failing me, rather than my knowledge of Metallica. Seems like Metallica, upon reflection, draw their 'inspiration' from a number of religious sources; strange, as you say, that this song appears to be technically a 'song of praise' to Old Testament events. Can't see it getting sung in many religious establishments, though...
End Quote

I might go to church again, if they did ;D

Quoting:


I might go to church again, if they did ;D
End Quote

Not being a biblical scholar, or even a believer, I may be out of line here, but isn't there something about "making a joyful noise unto the Lord"?
As a teenager, my family was invited to a Black Baptist church social by one of my dad's crew (he was a foreman).  At first I felt a bit out of place, but the music was fernetic, and while I didn't sing (can't carry a tune in a basket), I did get into the clapping and drumming - I do "got rythem" - and soon felt right at home, especially when one VERY CUTE girl asked me to dance.  

Neither of us were gay though (back on topic ???)  ;)

Quoting:

Neither of us were gay though (back on topic ???)  ;)
End Quote

Nice save. I'll try and recover even more. Questions for the masses: Yes or no to gay marriage? Yes or no to civil unions?

Quoting:


Not being a biblical scholar, or even a believer, I may be out of line here, but isn't there something about "making a joyful noise unto the Lord"?
As a teenager, my family was invited to a Black Baptist church social by one of my dad's crew (he was a foreman).  At first I felt a bit out of place, but the music was fernetic, and while I didn't sing (can't carry a tune in a basket), I did get into the clapping and drumming - I do "got rythem" - and soon felt right at home, especially when one VERY CUTE girl asked me to dance.  

Neither of us were gay though (back on topic ???)  ;)
End Quote

Psalm 98:4 "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise."

Amen, Don Carlos, and you are not out of line. This is only one of about 7 scriptures I found about joyful noises. I love a worship service with loud, upbeat music and hand clapping. I think the Lord does too. Church should not sound (or look) like a morgue. We serve a living God...WOOOO HOOOO!!!!!

Quoting:

Nice save. I'll try and recover even more. Questions for the masses: Yes or no to gay marriage? Yes or no to civil unions?
End Quote

Fair enough, John Harvey...count me as a no vote on both versions.

*Modified cuz I credited the wrong person with the above quote!!*

Quoting:
Fair enough, John Harvey...count me as a no vote on both versions.

*Modified cuz I credited the wrong person with the above quote!!*

End Quote

I vote yes on both. I think it's good to encourage commitment among same sex couples. I would prefer that 'marriage' be okayed. Civil Union sounds like a secondary status. We're all loving children in God/Allah/Jimmy's eyes. Let the wedding bells ring!

Quoting:


Not being a biblical scholar, or even a believer, I may be out of line here, but isn't there something about "making a joyful noise unto the Lord"?
As a teenager, my family was invited to a Black Baptist church social by one of my dad's crew (he was a foreman).  At first I felt a bit out of place, but the music was fernetic, and while I didn't sing (can't carry a tune in a basket), I did get into the clapping and drumming - I do "got rythem" - and soon felt right at home, especially when one VERY CUTE girl asked me to dance.  

Neither of us were gay though (back on topic ???)  ;)
End Quote

I meant if they played Metallica, which many churches in MY area believe is the "music of the devil".  Welcome to the land of bars and churches ::)  (in my hometown of 5000, there were 16 churches and 15 bars)

Quoting:


Psalm 98:4 "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise."

End Quote

Didn't some forms of Christianity try to ban music?  I'm sure some early variation that came to Scotland tried to.

Quoting:


I meant if they played Metallica, which many churches in MY area believe is the "music of the devil".  Welcome to the land of bars and churches ::)  (in my hometown of 5000, there were 16 churches and 15 bars)
End Quote

Yeah, churches that sprang from John Calvin (Puritans) tend to ignore those "joyfull noise" passages.  I guess that's what you get for living in the "heartland".  What can I say  ;D  (Maybe you should woirship in the bars  ;))

As to Gay Marriage, I'm all for it.  Gays and Lesb. are often portrayed as promiscuious, and I guess fundamentalists want to keep them that way, or at least keep the ability to stereotype them that way.

Remember the old folk song "Where Heve All the Flowers Gone?"?  The chorous goes "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn?"

Quoting:


Didn't some forms of Christianity try to ban music?  I'm sure some early variation that came to Scotland tried to.
End Quote

I'm sure they did too . There are still some churches today that frown on any music at all in service, tho I am not sure what denominations. If only they would read their bibles... ::)

Quoting:
Yeah, churches that sprang from John Calvin (Puritans) tend to ignore those "joyfull noise" passages.End Quote

That's funny, because I find myself becoming more of a Calvinist these days!!

Quoting:

As to Gay Marriage, I'm all for it.  Gays and Lesb. are often portrayed as promiscuious, and I guess fundamentalists want to keep them that way, or at least keep the ability to stereotype them that way.

End Quote

Heterosexuals are often promiscuous too, maybe more so than gays, maybe not. Marriage certainly is not a guarantee against promiscuity, although one might imagine it would curtail it a bit!! ;D

Anyway, as a Christian, it really does not matter what I say about homosexual behavior. What matters is what God says about it. And God is against it, so I must also be against it. I know that many don't believe in the bible as the Word of God, and that's their choice. I guess I just wanted to clarify why I say no to gay marriage/union.

Quoting:afterall - whoo, he's so loving, he's so wonderful, so fabulous...  but then at same time he's vengeful.  and in a way, cruel and heartless.  after all, doesn't creating something, and then condemning that same creation to eternal damnation because of the way you created it seem a bit sadistic to you?End Quote

It's one of my religious conundrums I've not been able to answer. It seems to me that God is a vengeful God in the Old Testament and in the New Testament he is a 'God of Love' - that is until he gets to Revelation. It's like we are talking about two different people or something - maybe Gamblefish could help us out there . . .

Quoting:and do believe me - homosexuality is not a choice.  no one sits down and says to themselves "hmm.  i think i want to be hated for who i am.  i want to live a life of being ostracized and persecuted.  i want to live my life knowing that every night a homophobe could decide to kill me just cause i love in a different way than he does!  that sure sounds swell!" End Quote

Zakk, There is a lot of ignorance in the world on many levels.
My irritation is not with homosexuality but with the Church in general (any denomination). On the one hand they say 'man should not lie with man' and then they take the mickey out of the scriptures by going against it! That is not mentioning the choir boy incidences of the 90s.

Quoting:
First of all being Gay is truly a choice. Homosexuality is a way of life, not a genetic defect that you are born with and you just cannot help... End Quote

I see words but I don't see any evidence to support them there words.... :P

I guess the only reliable source to determine if "homosexuality is a choice" would be a homosexual himself/herself. You, nor I, have experienced homosexuality therefore it is unlogical then we could determine the answer to whether homosexuality is a choice.

Quoting:


I see words but I don't see any evidence to support them there words.... :P

I guess the only reliable source to determine if "homosexuality is a choice" would be a homosexual himself/herself. You, nor I, have experienced homosexuality therefore it is unlogical then we could determine the answer to whether homosexuality is a choice.
End Quote

I think it is a choice too. I have not seen any evidence saying there is a genetic reason for homosexuality. And up til a few years ago, homosexuality was listed as an ilness by pscyhologists. Everyone thinks it is disgusting, but we try and allow it on the basis of "live and let live". The problem with gays is they will not just go and live. They have to convince everyone else their devient lifestyle is normal. To me, that speaks volumes about it being a choice.

Quoting:Also to clarify God hates the sin not the sinner. He loves everybody all the same no matter what you do. However, He has established commandments which are very clear to anyone who has actually read the bible. End Quote

I totally agree DizzleJ.

Quoting:Homosexuality is a choice . . . Some sickos out there could probably claim that Buggery is a choice to. (Buggery is having sex with another animal Like a Woman and Horse.)
Now come on folks, The same reasons gays say they are gay could be applied to those who practice Buggery! But, you all probably think Buggery is sick and unnatural! Right! Well so do I, and I think the same about homosexuality. Makes ma wanna vomit and it is just plain unnatural!
End Quote

Buggery can be a sexual part of homosexuality but you also have to respect the decisions people make (I'm not arguing whether homosexual people have a choice). I don't like the prospect of being sodomized myself but we should not tell a homosexual how to act in their consenting private lives. We do not have the right to dictate.

Quoting:

~*~

the whole notion of "god" punishing his children to burn in a fiery hell forever all because they loved one gender over the other is...  incomprehensible.  unless "god" is a schizo.End Quote

Actually, we all have sinned. Doesn't really matter what the sin is to God, all sin is punishable by death. That's why Christ came, to pay the death penalty for us. All we have to do is put our faith in Christ and we are exonerated.

Quoting:

afterall - whoo, he's so loving, he's so wonderful, so fabulous...  but then at same time he's vengeful.  and in a way, cruel and heartless.  after all, doesn't creating something, and then condemning that same creation to eternal damnation because of the way you created it seem a bit sadistic to you?
End Quote

God is a loving God, but at the same time He demands justice. He laid down the law, all you have to do is keep it. Of course, it is impossible to keep the whole law, as said before, we have all broken it (sinned). Unfair, huh? But wait...God decided to come to earth in human form and fulfill the law for us. Now, faith in Christ saves us from the punishment for our sin...death.

Quoting:

and do believe me - homosexuality is not a choice.  no one sits down and says to themselves "hmm.  i think i want to be hated for who i am.  i want to live a life of being ostracized and persecuted.  i want to live my life knowing that every night a homophobe could decide to kill me just cause i love in a different way than he does!  that sure sounds swell!"
End Quote

Homosexual behavior is a choice. It starts in the mind, which of course controls the body. Some may have more of a tendency towards it than others, because of certain events in their lives. When you start down such a path, your first concerns are not what the consequences might be or how others might treat you. Your first concern is your own desire and how to fulfill it and to hell with the consequences.  

Quoting:

obviously, i'm pro gay marriage.  and not civil unions...  the government needs to call them the same thing - because we aren't a theocracy.  the bible may say marriage is between a man and a woman, but the government should have no concern with the bible.  that's the point of this whole constitution thing we've got, you know?  therefore, it's the same thing for everyone, or, the government should have no concern with marriages period.


End Quote

That's fine for you, it's your body and you can do with it what you want. But for now, I believe that the majority of Americans are not ready for same-sex unions. I may be wrong. But I also feel that wide-spread acceptance of same-sex unions is growing, and before long I would not be suprised to see same-sex unions performed in every state.

Quoting:Also to clarify God hates the sin not the sinner. He loves everybody all the same no matter what you do. However, He has established commandments which are very clear to anyone who has actually read the bible.
Above all on this topic being called Gay rights:
This is an Oxymoron! The only rights they have are inherent rights that everybody else has. Homosexuality is a choice. I could be gay if I wanted but I Like girls and I believe that it is unatural.
If you want a more scientific answer as to why Homosexuality is in and of itself a wrong thing, just think about nature. And your physical body. Men were made to fertilize a Woman's egg. And Woman are made to be fertilzed. To be blunt, Woman are meant to be penetrated and men are meant to petetrate them. Take a health class on Sex 101. A man's organs are not meant to mix with another man's organsEnd Quote

Someone has mentioned this before, but along with the whole "man shall not lie with man" thing, there are several other rules in Leviticus, such as the not wearing a cloak of more than two fabrics thing...  so, I suppose anyone who's ever worn polyester is just as bad as every gay guy.
Second of all, COULD you be gay if you wanted?  this is the thing - if tommorrow YOU may the so-called "choice" to be gay, could you suddenly start beign turned on by men?  Since later you mention it makes you wanna vomit, I don't suppose you could.  Obviously, it's not a choice for you.  You were born to like girls.  We were born to like guys.  The idea of having intercourse with a woman disgusts me just as much our ways do to you.   :P
Finally, sorry to be overly-explicit here, but I think this point must be made - if god created bodies to fit together in certain ways, why oh why would he make it feel so incredbly wonderful to have your prostate toyed with?  After all - only men have one.  And the only way to reach it is through the arse...  and god put it there.

Quoting:I may be wrong. But I also feel that wide-spread acceptance of same-sex unions is growing, and before long I would not be suprised to see same-sex unions performed in every stateEnd Quote

I'm quite pleased to say that you're right about that.  Look at television and the ever-growing (popular!) programming with gays...  just one sign that the public in general is learning to accept homosexuality, we've already taken great strides.  The best way to compare it is with the civil rights movement concerning blacks...  they started off as slaves, and now, by most, are considered equal fellow human beings.  of course there are still the neo-nazis and kkk and the other crazies still anti-blacks, but in general they are considered equal.  now the same thing is happening for gays...  of course there will always be the crazies like the radical-right and the rabid bible-beaters, but in general people are starting to understand homosexuality is a normal part of life...  After all, we're almost 1 out of 5 people...  and as it's accepted more, more are going to come out, and the fear and misunderstanding will grow ever smaller.  ^_^  and just remember - if you're so sickened by it, think of your family.  you've almost certainly got one...  they may be a niece or a cousin or an uncle or someone, but you've probably got one.  ;)

Quoting:I think it is a choice too. I have not seen any evidence saying there is a genetic reason for homosexuality. And up til a few years ago, homosexuality was listed as an ilness by pscyhologists. Everyone thinks it is disgusting, but we try and allow it on the basis of "live and let live". The problem with gays is they will not just go and live. They have to convince everyone else their devient lifestyle is normal. To me, that speaks volumes about it being a choice. End Quote

I don't know if you mean 30 as being "a few" but psychologists declassified homosexuality as a mental illness in 1973.  Thirty years ago.  And with the field of psychology being a relatively new science, of course it's going to be refined, and better understood everyday.  And they realized they were wrong about calling it a mental illness thirty years ago.  And, there is no evidence about it being a choice, either.  Once again, I'd like to draw the parellel with African-Americans.  It was decided they weren't slaves over a hundred years ago.  However, people still didn't  believe they were equal human beings...  so rather than lying low and just "going to live", they protested, they rallied, they wanted to be thought of as humans, not sub-class creatures "allowed" to exist.  And homosexuality is the same way.  And, I'm sorry to tell you this, but "everyone" doesn't think it's disgusting.  You're the minority in your small-mindedness now.  My generation more than ever refuses to live in a world full of bigotry, conformity and control by forces such as the Church.  My generation wants to live, it wants to experience life, and it wants to throw off the chains...  all the hundreds of young gays, goths, freaks, punks feminists, ravers, vegans, and the dozens of other groups who are tired of the close-minded status quo are going to be adults, and the elderly bigots are going to start dropping like flies...  there'll be some to replace them of course, but the fact is, we're winning.  ;D  

Quoting:
all the hundreds of young gays, goths, freaks, punks feminists, ravers, vegans, and the dozens of other groups who are tired of the close-minded status quo are going to be adults, and the elderly bigots are going to start dropping like flies...
End Quote

Modified to add: I think it is wrong for anyone to say another group should "drop like flies". Government should not go into the bedroom. Just like homosexuals should not go on the streets proclaiming they have a cause "like the black slaves did". The two are nothing alike. If you think your life as a homosexual parallels the life of a slave, then you should talk to someone who has really been discriminated against.

Quoting:
Now come on folks, The same reasons gays say they are gay could be applied to those who practice Buggery!


End Quote

You are correct DizzleJ. The widespread acceptance of homosexuality as normal will lead to acceptance of beastiality, pedophilia and the like.

Quoting:
 And, I'm sorry to tell you this, but "everyone" doesn't think it's disgusting.   
End Quote

Unfortunately, the more the homosexual agenda is shoved down the throat of America, the more the American people  are swallowing this lie.

Quoting:
What matters is what God says about it. And God is against it, so I must also be against it.
End Quote

The Bible, which is written by man, can not always be taken literally. At least, my Church teaches that one cannot take passages out of the Bible to justify harassment towards homosexuals (and non-submissive women for that matter).

Quoting:


You are correct DizzleJ. The widespread acceptance of homosexuality as normal will lead to acceptance of beastiality, pedophilia and the like.



End Quote

I must say I disagree with that...homosexuality and pedophilia are two totally-different things, I don't understand how you can compare the two.

Quoting:You are correct DizzleJ. The widespread acceptance of homosexuality as normal will lead to acceptance of beastiality, pedophilia and the like.
End Quote

What is it with Christians?  Just because two adult human beings who are the same gender can love each other, all of a sudden you start goign on about animals!  children!  dead people!  etc. etc. etc.  it's absolutely absurd.  Consensual sex between two men or two women is completely different from child molestation and beastiality.  10-20% of the world is gay.  And yet you think the next logical step is "people are gonna want to start marrying animals".  completely incredibly absurd.

Quoting:Unfortunately, the more the homosexual agenda is shoved down the throat of America, the more the American people  are swallowing this lie. End Quote

Hmm, at first in your posts you tried to appear civil.  Now you're showing your true colors, an old-fashioned bible-beating bigot.  "the homosexual agenda".  how classic.  you must like to see innocent people get killed, and school children committing suicide.  after all - the gay community is standing up and saying "we are people too."  they're saying that they shouldn't be tied to fences and brutally maimed.  they're saying they shouldn't have to watch other gay teens kill themselves because they can't stand being the subject of so much hate!  the "agenda" is trying to end the violence, trying to make sure that all humans of all races, genders, sexualities are treated equally and respected.  but obviously you don't care about real peoples' lives.  you're more concerned with following the silly laws of some archaic book (You never answered me on this - DO YOU WEAR POLYESTER?) than seeing that ALL humans with good in their hearts are treated fairly.  

but it's okay.  as i said, you're a slowly dying breed.  the Hypocrisy and Hatred of the Church is ensuring its own downfall.  You will keep shooting yourself in the foot until no one at all will continue to worship your god of hate and bigotry. ;D

Quoting:Don't you realize that nobody has made a comment that would be consisdered Biggotry?! With that comment above YOU are being the BIGOT! You are disrespecting every Christian around. And I might add, God is not a bigot nor does he hate you or anyone else on the Earth. He hates your choice of being Gay.
Anyway, could you please settle down? Don't wish quick death on all who disagree with you. Nobody wished that Gays would die, or that they were a "Dieing Breed'.
End Quote

first, i never said i hoped or wished anyone would die...  my reference to "a dying breed" was not death in the physical sense.  i meant that there are less and less people every day who blindly follow the church and accept their close-minded ways as gospel.

also - there are many christians i respect, for there are a great many who have begun to think for themselves, and realize that the idea of a god who would people to eternal damnation just because they love their same gender is utterly ridiculous.  fishie's comment about the "Gay agenda" being "shoved down people's throats" was very disrespectful.  gays are people who are trying to earn the right to LIVE, the right to NOT live in fear of death, in fear of brutality, in fear or persecution and hatred.  in the majority of U.S. states it is still legal to fire someone because they are gay.  and he believes that we are wrong for trying to be treated as human beings.  straights don't have to have parades and activist groups because THEY HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR.  It's easy for a white-bread christian male to say "what are they so uppity about?" because they've never had to face discrimination a day in his whole life.  we can't choose our sexuality anymore that a black man can choose the color of his skin, and you all simply say "pish posh" because it's easier to conduct your own arguments that way, and I ask you, well, when did you choose to be straight?  the same day i chose to be gay!  you didn't.  and i didn't.  as i mentioned but you simply ignore, you could decide to become gay tomorrow as easily as i could decide to become straight.

Quoting:When you start down such a path, your first concerns are not what the consequences might be or how others might treat you. Your first concern is your own desire and how to fulfill it and to hell with the consequences.  End Quote

our own desire?  nonsense.  every fifteen minutes, a gay teenager commits suicide.  because, when you begin to develop and realize that you can't like the opposite gender, your first concern is FAR from fulfilling a desire for sex with your own gender.  your first concern is "what if my parents don't love me anymore?  what i get killed?  how am i going to go to school every day and walk through the hallways as other students yell "fag" or dyke" at me?  how am i going to survive the constant beatings?  how am i going to survive when my parents kick me onto the streets because they don't want a queer for a son?"  and many of them, unable to face having this forced upon them, take their own lives rather than live in a world of hatred.  the first thing you THINK of is the consequences...  and your inability to avoid them because face it - god made you this way.

Quoting:God is not a bigot nor does he hate you or anyone else on the Earth. He hates your choice of being Gay.
End Quote

as far as the "god hates the act, not the one who acts", why would a fair god hate an act of love?  the way i see god, his only beef is with people who HARM other people.  who are gays harming?  absolutely no one.  so it's still ridiculous.  

in any case, perhaps i am a bigot in my own way, but i'm bigoted against organizations that play a role in the death of hundreds of my kin.  and i don't see anything wrong with THAT.

Quoting:
I too will step in and ask that all of you try and respect each other's opinions or at least remain civil.

If you have something to say as to why you agree or disagree with an opinion, remember to direct your commentary towards the subject - not the person.
End Quote

i apologize.  ;D  i get a bit heated when it comes to this topic.

Quoting:

The Bible, which is written by man, can not always be taken literally. At least, my Church teaches that one cannot take passages out of the Bible to justify harassment towards homosexuals (and non-submissive women for that matter).

End Quote

John, I never said homosexuals were to be harassed. The bible, which was written by God, does not teach this.

Quoting:
I must say I disagree with that...homosexuality and pedophilia are two totally-different things, I don't understand how you can compare the two. End Quote

Junior, I never said they were the same thing. The point I am making here is that acceptance of one thing leads to acceptance of another. We accepted "free love" (read promiscuity) in the 60's and 70's, homosexuality in the 80's and beyond. The next natural step in this progression is the acceptance of pedophilia and the like.

Quoting:
Hmm, at first in your posts you tried to appear civil.  Now you're showing your true colors, an old-fashioned bible-beating bigot.End Quote

Zakk, did it take you that long to figure out I am a "Bible beater"? Old fashioned? Naw, just old. ;D Bigot? Read on.

Quoting:
"the homosexual agenda".  how classic.  you must like to see innocent people get killed, and school children committing suicide.  after all - the gay community is standing up and saying "we are people too."  they're saying that they shouldn't be tied to fences and brutally maimed.  they're saying they shouldn't have to watch other gay teens kill themselves because they can't stand being the subject of so much hate!  End Quote

No, Zakk, I don't like to see people killed. You are taking liberties with what I have posted. Please don't jump to conclusions that have no merit. And yes, gays are people to, and are deserving of rights. Fact is, they already have the same rights as everyone else, except for the right to legally marry. There are already laws against the violence you described. I think much of the violence is brought on by the gay community, when in essence they stand up and shout, "Hey, I'm gay and you better like it!!". Forcing someone to believe in something they don't riles them up...just look at how people react to Christian evangelism... :P

Quoting:
you're more concerned with following the silly laws of some archaic book (You never answered me on this - DO YOU WEAR POLYESTER?) than seeing that ALL humans with good in their hearts are treated fairly.  End Quote

Well, Zakk, I am concerned with following Christ, but I will never force you to follow Him. As for the polyester thing, I said: We have all sinned (worn polyester, as you put it). You. Me. Your grandma. My aunt Lou. All of us. That is why we all need a Savior.

Quoting:
there are many christians i respect, for there are a great many who have begun to think for themselves, and realize that the idea of a god who would people to eternal damnation just because they love their same gender is utterly ridiculous.
End Quote

What you are saying here is that you respect Christians who share your viewpoint. Those who do not share your viewpoint are "ridiculous". That smacks of bigotry.

Quoting:
fishie's comment about the "Gay agenda" being "shoved down people's throats" was very disrespectful.End Quote

No disrespect meant, Zakk. The ACLU, GLBT and the like are on a campaign to force America to accept homosexuality as normal. This you cannot deny. You may believe homosexuality is normal, that is your right. I respect that right. But I reserve the right to think for myself too, and I refuse to accept as right a concept that I believe is wrong. When you insist that I validate your lifestyle, then you are forcing your agenda down my throat.

Quoting:
as i mentioned but you simply ignore, you could decide to become gay tomorrow as easily as i could decide to become straight.End Quote

I believe that some people can genuinely be attracted to members of their own sex. That does not mean that such an attraction is a good thing. When I was younger, I was attracted to drugs. Boy, did I like 'em!! Did 'em all the time. Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaarty!!!! WooHoo!! What a mistake. I can see in hindsight that my life would be much better now had I never indulged my desire to get high. Truth is, our wanton desires always get us into trouble. How do we know when a desire is bad? There has got to be a standard. Something to tell us what is good and what is unprofitable. Who should come up with such a standard? Me? You? How about God, who knows all things and only wants what is good for us. That is the standard I have chosen. You can choose it or not, that is your decision.

Quoting:our own desire?  nonsense.  every fifteen minutes, a gay teenager commits suicide.  because, when you begin to develop and realize that you can't like the opposite gender, your first concern is FAR from fulfilling a desire for sex with your own gender.  your first concern is "what if my parents don't love me anymore?  what i get killed?  how am i going to go to school every day and walk through the hallways as other students yell "fag" or dyke" at me?  how am i going to survive the constant beatings?  how am i going to survive when my parents kick me onto the streets because they don't want a queer for a son?"  and many of them, unable to face having this forced upon them, take their own lives rather than live in a world of hatred.  the first thing you THINK of is the consequences...  and your inability to avoid them because face it - god made you this way.End Quote

You must first have a desire for your own gender before you "realize" you are gay and will face persecution. If you are a minor under your parents authority, you pretty much have to do what your parents demand. Once you are old enough, you can move out on your own and do what you want. Suicide is never the answer. What does it accomplish? Nothing. It is the coward's way out.

Sorry for the length, I missed a lot when I went to bed last night!!

To sum up, I am against gay union. We live in a democracy. As I understand it  in a democracy, the majority rules (I know, Don Carlos, I may be wrong ;D). If 8 out of 10 people say no to gay union, then no gay unions. The minority live with that decision. If 8 out of 10 say yes to gay unions, then gay unions for everyone. The minority live with that decision.

I said before, Zakk, I believe that in the near future the gay community will be "celebrated" by all of society and gay unions will be everywhere. As for all of us "bigot" Christians who oppose, we will be rounded up into concentration camps to be executed...the last of a dying breed...

Quoting:

Junior, I never said they were the same thing. The point I am making here is that acceptance of one thing leads to acceptance of another. We accepted "free love" (read promiscuity) in the 60's and 70's, homosexuality in the 80's and beyond. The next natural step in this progression is the acceptance of pedophilia and the like.

End Quote

Well, logically then we should outlaw heresy - because acceptance of people who just don't follow god's word is eventually going to lead to wide-spread acceptance of child-abuse and bestiality.

We should basically only accept Christianity and Christians - and anything outside that is a threat.

Quoting:
every fifteen minutes, a gay teenager commits suicide.  End Quote

Can I ask you how you know that a gay person commits suicide every 15 minuites? If that is the case, I would be willing to rethink my position. If you are correct, that means that 33,792 gays commited suicide last year. I do not believe it. Furthermore, I would like to know what % of suicides are gay versus the general population. If the rates of suicide are the same in the gay community as the rest of the population, then all you have shown us is gays are like everyone else in having mental illness.

Quoting:
i apologize.  ;D  i get a bit heated when it comes to this topic.
End Quote

Apology accepted. I understand your frustration. I have friends who are gay and have witnessed some of their struggles. Fortunately, as time goes by, their struggles are less in reference to discrimination. I often say "Gays are nicest people in the world and make the best friends." I truly believe that. I'm not big on religion and the bible, but I refuse to believe in the possibility of a god who would condemn a good person based on their sexual preference, especially when these good people can't help being the way they are.

Gays have come a long way and times are still changing. Equality will come eventually and is positively closer than it ever was. Homosexuality has become, for the most part, socially accepted. For some people, it's just a matter of general acceptance, getting used to the idea. Some people will never accept, but gays must try to understand these people as well and be tolerant for the sake of peace.

Quoting:


Apology accepted. I understand your frustration. I have friends who are gay and have witnessed some of their struggles. Fortunately, as time goes by, their struggles are less in reference to discrimination. I often say "Gays are nicest people in the world and make the best friends." I truly believe that. I'm not big on religion and the bible, but I refuse to believe in the possibility of a god who would condemn a good person based on their sexual preference, especially when these good people can't help being the way they are.

Gays have come a long way and times are still changing. Equality will come eventually and is positively closer than it ever was. Homosexuality has become, for the most part, socially accepted. For some people, it's just a matter of general acceptance, getting used to the idea. Some people will never accept, but gays must try to understand these people as well and be tolerant for the sake of peace.
End Quote

Wise words from a wise person. ;)

Quoting:
Wise words from a wise person. ;)
End Quote

Thanks man.

Edited to add: Nah, I'm just old. ;D :)

Quoting:


I'm sure they did too . There are still some churches today that frown on any music at all in service, tho I am not sure what denominations. If only they would read their bibles... ::)


That's funny, because I find myself becoming more of a Calvinist these days!!
End Quote

Does that mean that you are coming to accept predestination?

Quoting:


Heterosexuals are often promiscuous too, maybe more so than gays, maybe not. Marriage certainly is not a guarantee against promiscuity, although one might imagine it would curtail it a bit!! ;D

Anyway, as a Christian, it really does not matter what I say about homosexual behavior. What matters is what God says about it. And God is against it, so I must also be against it. I know that many don't believe in the bible as the Word of God, and that's their choice. I guess I just wanted to clarify why I say no to gay marriage/union.
End Quote

Yeah, the bible is pretty clear about homosexuality.  But marriage is sanctioned by the state.  Sure, clergy get to perform marriage cerimonies that are recognized by the state, but so do Justices of the Peace, and in Vermont, even town clerks.  I have no problem with a clergy person refusing to perform a unisex marriage, but I do have a problem with religious people imposing their morality on the rest of us.  Seems to me that the 1st Amendment protects all from the imposition of an imposed religion and therefore, an imposed morality.  As it should be.  The old testament, by the way, makes playing football a sin.  Levidicus forbids touching the skin of a pig.  It also prohibits touching a woman during "that time of the month", but how can you tell?  The point is that much in both the old and the new testaments is just silly in our modern world.

Quoting:

~*~
okay, so maybe i'm biased on the subject, but...

the whole notion of "god" punishing his children to burn in a fiery hell forever all because they loved one gender over the other is...  incomprehensible.  unless "god" is a schizo.

afterall - whoo, he's so loving, he's so wonderful, so fabulous...  but then at same time he's vengeful.  and in a way, cruel and heartless.  after all, doesn't creating something, and then condemning that same creation to eternal damnation because of the way you created it seem a bit sadistic to you?

and do believe me - homosexuality is not a choice.  no one sits down and says to themselves "hmm.  i think i want to be hated for who i am.  i want to live a life of being ostracized and persecuted.  i want to live my life knowing that every night a homophobe could decide to kill me just cause i love in a different way than he does!  that sure sounds swell!"

obviously, i'm pro gay marriage.  and not civil unions...  the government needs to call them the same thing - because we aren't a theocracy.  the bible may say marriage is between a man and a woman, but the government should have no concern with the bible.  that's the point of this whole constitution thing we've got, you know?  therefore, it's the same thing for everyone, or, the government should have no concern with marriages period.

canada looks more appealing each and every day as the backwards loonies of the religious right pull so many strings in our sad excuse for a democracy.
End Quote

VERY WELL SAID

I'm straight, not by choice, it's just how I came out, like everyone else.  Hopefully, the day will come when we will recognize that people don't opt for one form of sexuality over another, and will learn to accept and honor the love that ANY two people share.  Of course I support gay marriage.  And you're right.  Canada IS looking better every day.  But I think I'll stick around here at least until 2004, to vote against junior.

Quoting:
All right, I have been long absent because I have been busy, but this is a topic that I can not ignore.
First of all being Gay is truly a choice. Homosexuality is a way of life, not a genetic defect that you are born with and you just cannot help. Also Marriage is a creation of Religion. It is best taken place in a church or religious institution. And as Gamblefish said, God is very much so against Sodomy or Homosexuality. You know God created Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve.. :-X
Marriage is usually called a holy union. There just is no denying that marriage is of religion and in America, Generally a Christian marriage. The Bible is against Sodomy.
Also to clarify God hates the sin not the sinner. He loves everybody all the same no matter what you do. However, He has established commandments which are very clear to anyone who has actually read the bible.
Above all on this topic being called Gay rights:
This is an Oxymoron! The only rights they have are inherent rights that everybody else has. Homosexuality is a choice. I could be gay if I wanted but I Like girls and I believe that it is unatural.
If you want a more scientific answer as to why Homosexuality is in and of itself a wrong thing, just think about nature. And your physical body. Men were made to fertilize a Woman's egg. And Woman are made to be fertilzed. To be blunt, Woman are meant to be penetrated and men are meant to petetrate them. Take a health class on Sex 101. A man's organs are not meant to mix with another man's organs.
Sorry, but nature did not make a mistake. Nature makes you a body built for bringing children about, not enjoying your own sex! So anyone who is gay, has told thier brain to reject that which is natural to themselves, in favor for thier same sex. (Thus they HAVE made a choice)
Humans jsut have such powerful minds that we can literally overtake the body. You can condition yourself to be sexually attracted to the same sex. Some sickos out there could probably claim that Buggery is a choice to. (Buggery is having sex with another animal Like a Woman and Horse.)
Now come on folks, The same reasons gays say they are gay could be applied to those who practice Buggery! But, you all probably think Buggery is sick and unnatural! Right! Well so do I, and I think the same about homosexuality. Makes ma wanna vomit and it is just plain unnatural!



End Quote

Both biologists and psychologists would disagree with this rant in its totality, as would anthropologists.

Marriage is certainly a part of all religions, because all religions want to control sexuality, which is clearly a driving force in all creatures.  The needle and dragon flies were breeding like crazy on the lake today.  My daughter's dissertation is on the role of scent, noise, and motion in the mating preferences of fruit flies, so of which, she reports, are gay.  With brains the size of atoms, I doubt that they made a conscious choice.

But this country is a secular state, not a theocracy, christian or other.  So follow your religious beliefs, but keep them out of public policy.

Quoting:
don't know how to do the quotes right, but John_Seminal wrote this...

I don't know if you mean 30 as being "a few" but psychologists declassified homosexuality as a mental illness in 1973.  Thirty years ago.  And with the field of psychology being a relatively new science, of course it's going to be refined, and better understood everyday.  And they realized they were wrong about calling it a mental illness thirty years ago.  And, there is no evidence about it being a choice, either.  Once again, I'd like to draw the parellel with African-Americans.  It was decided they weren't slaves over a hundred years ago.  However, people still didn't  believe they were equal human beings...  so rather than lying low and just "going to live", they protested, they rallied, they wanted to be thought of as humans, not sub-class creatures "allowed" to exist.  And homosexuality is the same way.  And, I'm sorry to tell you this, but "everyone" doesn't think it's disgusting.  You're the minority in your small-mindedness now.  My generation more than ever refuses to live in a world full of bigotry, conformity and control by forces such as the Church.  My generation wants to live, it wants to experience life, and it wants to throw off the chains...  all the hundreds of young gays, goths, freaks, punks feminists, ravers, vegans, and the dozens of other groups who are tired of the close-minded status quo are going to be adults, and the elderly bigots are going to start dropping like flies...  there'll be some to replace them of course, but the fact is, we're winning.  ;D  
End Quote

Winning?  Attitudes may be changing, that's true, but yoiu can't start winning until you begin to br politically active.  Truth is, that of all demographic groups, those between 18 and 30 have the lowest voter turnout of any age group.  You want to make change?  you have older allies - myself included - but you've got to get involved, and you've got to VOTE.

Quoting:


i apologize.  ;D  i get a bit heated when it comes to this topic.
End Quote

I have read all of your posts (so far) in this thread, and I think you have nothing to apologize for.  You have expressed yourself with intelligence, logic, dignity, and facts.  Bravo, my young friend.

Let me also say that I am a very straight person - god, if there is one - made me that way and I don't apologize for that.  I am also a Latino, and therefore "muy macho".  In fact, muy macho enough that I could care less how others express their sexuality.  I guess I just can't understand why this issue arouses such intense emotional response.  Could be some lingering fears among the straight community?

Quoting:


John, I never said homosexuals were to be harassed. The bible, which was written by God, does not teach this.

End Quote

Fish, please tell me in what language god wrote the bible?  Was it anchient Hebrew, or Aramenic, of maybe he wrote Farci or Arabic.  It most certainly wasn't the English of the King James version, nor of any of the other English translations.  And given that, which of those anchient languages do you read, that you are such a biblical scholar?  The religious pontification onthis thread is really getting annoying, to the point of revulsion.

I say again, believe what you want to believe, just GET OUT of our secular state.  Stop trying to impose your beliefs on the rest of us through the political process.

Quoting:


Apology accepted. I understand your frustration. I have friends who are gay and have witnessed some of their struggles. Fortunately, as time goes by, their struggles are less in reference to discrimination. I often say "Gays are nicest people in the world and make the best friends." I truly believe that. I'm not big on religion and the bible, but I refuse to believe in the possibility of a god who would condemn a good person based on their sexual preference, especially when these good people can't help being the way they are.

Gays have come a long way and times are still changing. Equality will come eventually and is positively closer than it ever was. Homosexuality has become, for the most part, socially accepted. For some people, it's just a matter of general acceptance, getting used to the idea. Some people will never accept, but gays must try to understand these people as well and be tolerant for the sake of peace.
End Quote

As I wrote before, I don't think that Zakk had  anything to apologize for.  I DO think that some of our religious friends need to apologize for imosing their views of morality on others, something I absolutely abhore.  I agree with you that in general society is becoming more accepting of diversity on lots of levels, but it is still the case that minorities and especially gays are subjected to inordanate acts of violence and discrimination.  

I disagree that "gays should try to understand these people as well as be tolerant for the sake of peace".  That is not how change is brought about.  That would be like telling black people to understand and tolerate Bull Conner, who wouldn't let them register to vote.  Discrimination MUST BE confronted, hatred and bigotry must be challanged, for when good people of conscience do nothing, evil wins.  

Cardinal Niemier (I think) wrote somethig like "First they can foir the Jews, but as I was not A jew, I said nothing.  Then they came for the communists, but I was not a communist, and I did not protest.  Then they came for the Gipsies, and I kept silent,  then they came for...then they came for...then they came for..,and all the time I said nothing.  Then they came for me, and there was no one to speak up."  He wrote this regarding his experiences in Nazi Germany.

People of consciece MUST speak up, must stand against bigotry.  Whether the impulse is from religion or secular, to abstain is to consent.  We must NOT consent to discrimination in whatever form it rears it's ugly head.

And please HS, don't take this personally.  I know you are a good person, but sometimes we all need a wake up call.  Understanding is not the same as acting.  Our gay friends need our support, considering some of what I've read on this thread, desperately.

Quoting:
What I would like to know, placing all religion aside, placing the bible aside -

1) What is a good cause for denying gays the right to marry?

2) What are the official reasons for the denial of gay marriages in most states?
End Quote

(1) As far as I can tell, there are NONE.

(2) As far as I can tell, they are all religious or biblical, or homosexuality is yuuuuchy.

Quoting:


Fish, please tell me in what language god wrote the bible?  Was it anchient Hebrew, or Aramenic, of maybe he wrote Farci or Arabic.  It most certainly wasn't the English of the King James version, nor of any of the other English translations.  And given that, which of those anchient languages do you read, that you are such a biblical scholar?  End Quote

The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew, the New Testament was originally written in Greek. I can read neither of these languages. I study the Old King James english translation of the Bible, occasionally the New King James. I refer to Strong's Concordence often for the translation of individual words and use different commentaries authored by different Biblical scholars. I still have much to learn about God's Word, and will be studying His Word for the rest of my life, probably only beginning to scratch the surface.

Quoting:
The religious pontification onthis thread is really getting annoying, to the point of revulsion.

I say again, believe what you want to believe, just GET OUT of our secular state.  Stop trying to impose your beliefs on the rest of us through the political process.
End Quote

Fair enough, Don Carlos. I have said my piece.

But as long as I can vote I will be "imposing" my beliefs on the rest of you through the political process, just as you try to impose your beliefs on me through that same process. ;)

Quoting:

The needle and dragon flies were breeding like crazy on the lake today.  My daughter's dissertation is on the role of scent, noise, and motion in the mating preferences of fruit flies, so of which, she reports, are gay.  With brains the size of atoms, I doubt that they made a conscious choice.

End Quote

If some are born gay and some are not, then "gayness" would have to be genetic, would it not? So then, how is this gay gene passed on?

If some fruit flies are gay (no puns please!!), then they are obviously having sex for pleasure, not for reproductive purposes. Do animals do that? I mean, have sex for pleasure? And with brains the size of atoms, how can they make the conscious choice to have sex for pleasure rather than reproduction?

Quoting:
Wait, I gotta ask one more thing...

If some are born gay and some are not, then "gayness" would have to be genetic, would it not? So then, how is this gay gene passed on?

If some fruit flies are gay (no puns please!!), then they are obviously having sex for pleasure, not for reproductive purposes. Do animals do that? I mean, have sex for pleasure? And with brains the size of atoms, how can they make the conscious choice to have sex for pleasure rather than reproduction?
End Quote

It's believed that only humans and dolphins have sex for pleasure. But studies have shown that rats, cats, dogs, monkeys and apes and even horses have displayed a tendency towards same-sex copulation. It is believed some males do this to subjigate rivals and demonstrate their superiority.

Quoting:
Wait, I gotta ask one more thing...

If some are born gay and some are not, then "gayness" would have to be genetic, would it not? So then, how is this gay gene passed on?

End Quote

There is no "gay gene". They think there are a number of genes that come together to cause an individual to be homosexual. They think it might have something to do with how testosterone effects the brain in the early stages of fetal development. I forget what all causes "gayness". I just know that there is not a single gene for homosexuality.

Quoting:
I guess I just can't understand why this issue arouses such intense emotional response.  Could be some lingering fears among the straight community?
End Quote

Ha ha! None from me Carlos.  :D

Quoting:
As I wrote before, I don't think that Zakk had  anything to apologize for.  I DO think that some of our religious friends need to apologize for imosing their views of morality on others, something I absolutely abhore.  I agree with you that in general society is becoming more accepting of diversity on lots of levels, but it is still the case that minorities and especially gays are subjected to inordanate acts of violence and discrimination.  

I disagree that "gays should try to understand these people as well as be tolerant for the sake of peace".  That is not how change is brought about.  That would be like telling black people to understand and tolerate Bull Conner, who wouldn't let them register to vote.  Discrimination MUST BE confronted, hatred and bigotry must be challanged, for when good people of conscience do nothing, evil wins.  
End Quote

I'm inclined to believe you in principle Don Carlos but I feel that most people aren't doing homosexuals an injustice because they can't 'marry'. I understand there needed to be a change in respect of the Jews and other races you have mentioned.

I agree with you in that hatred and bigotry should be confronted. I believe that there is a right way and a wrong way as well. Challenging bigotry through reason and common sense is a satisfying alternative to challenging bigotry with bigotry.

I also agree with you quite strongly that people shouldn't inflict religion onto people. What is religion or the bible to an atheist?

Quoting:
 I DO think that some of our religious friends need to apologize for imosing their views of morality on others, something I absolutely abhore.  
End Quote

Quoting:

I also agree with you quite strongly that people shouldn't inflict religion onto people. What is religion or the bible to an atheist?
End Quote

If stating one's beliefs is the same as imposing one's views, then count me guilty.

I have posted time and again that I do not care what others do with their bodies, that is their business, not mine. But don't expect me to "celebrate" it.

Quoting:


To answer your first question:

Jude 1:7

   "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengence of eternal fire."

The Strange Flesh means homosexuality, and obviously such acts result in the suffering the vengence of eternal fire.
End Quote

That still doesn't explain why it's wrong. It just says it is wrong. Doesn't say why.

Quoting:
Some sickos out there could probably claim that Buggery is a choice to. (Buggery is having sex with another animal Like a Woman and Horse.)
End Quote

Last time I looked, buggery referred to anal sex between two humans. I don't claim Xmas is the Black Mass, because I don't know about either. I've got nothing against those who spout rightist propaganda (someone needs to stand up for seperatism in society), but when the truth is extended to fit those views, then something needs to be said...or does the Xian angle now teach that bestiality & buggery are one and the same??

Someone in a later thread states the usual alarmist rubbish  that greater rights for gays may open the doors of society to further 'evils' such as paedophilia- the Catholic & Anglian church currently refuses to condemn its' own staff whom have commited such acts;(sweep it under the carpet & move pervert to another area), plus there are church staff who openly practise homosexuality. Isn't there a saying about 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'??

I feel it's time someone said this. I feel the Xian/ Catholic church is responsible for a large amount of the 'sexually deviant' behaviour in society today. Firstly because they characterise natural behaviour as such, secondly because their practises 'encourage' such behaviour. Catholic boarding schools are hotbeds of homosexuality, the whole 'confession' thing engenders males to look up to other males as a source of release- obviously some Catholic priests have taken this a little too literally (still, at least they get to keep their jobs...). Corporal punishment in these establishments leaves some with a taste for Sado-Masochism, in fact I don't know anyone into S&M who didn't attend a boarding school, and the majority of those were catholic schools...plus catholics teach you to take the 'body of christ' into your mouth. Dodgy symbolism.
     I know I'm treading on thin ice, and that what I'm saying is controversial. Doubtless I'll receive hundreds of self- righteous (or is that Holier Than Thou) replies from those opposed to what I say. I'm not bigoted enough to state my opinions are fact, whereby plenty of people are convinced they're right. Let them rot, I say. If anyone does think they are holier than me, fair enough. I ain't burning in no hell, nor will I be struck down by no lightning- I've seen god, who told me everything'd be OK, if people just didn't keep doing & saying stupid things in his name.  
;D ;)

Quoting:
Wait, I gotta ask one more thing...

If some are born gay and some are not, then "gayness" would have to be genetic, would it not? So then, how is this gay gene passed on?

If some fruit flies are gay (no puns please!!), then they are obviously having sex for pleasure, not for reproductive purposes. Do animals do that? I mean, have sex for pleasure? And with brains the size of atoms, how can they make the conscious choice to have sex for pleasure rather than reproduction?
End Quote

Obviously, neither people nor any other creatures that don't reproduce don't pass on there genes, but have you never heard of mutations?  Small, harmless ones occure all the time and cause any number of differences in the offspring.  My dad, for example, is slightly club footed.  I am not, my son is.  Genes are also dominant or recessive - blue eyes are resessive, you need 2 blue eye genes to get them.  Whether homosexuality is purely genetic is also a question, as is how that might work.  This is just another example of the "nature vrs nurture" debate.  The tendancy might be geneitic, and brought out by experience.

As to the fruit flies, I have no idea.  Bechky's dissertatio didn't focus on that issue.  Could be that the receptors of the Gay flies are somehow confused, and they respond to same sex signals, pheramones, receptivity dances, and "songs".

Quoting:



If stating one's beliefs is the same as imposing one's views, then count me guilty.

I have posted time and again that I do not care what others do with their bodies, that is their business, not mine. But don't expect me to "celebrate" it.



End Quote

Express your views all you want.  That is your right, and I respect that right.  Nor do I expect you to celebrate those things you find abhorant.  Your attitude is very "Vermont" - just don't scare the horses.  The problem arises when, for example, Texas outlaws "sodomy".  When I was a teen, oral sex was illegal in my state, so teens parking could be arrested for it, but not for having intercourse while "parking".  Rediculous, no?  Religiously inspired laws against harmless acts have no place in a secular society (this statement would not invalidate laws against pedophilia or rape etc. since these acts ARE harmful).  

Quoting:

Someone in a later thread states the usual alarmist rubbish  that greater rights for gays may open the doors of society to further 'evils' such as paedophilia- the Catholic & Anglian church currently refuses to condemn its' own staff whom have commited such acts;(sweep it under the carpet & move pervert to another area), plus there are church staff who openly practise homosexuality. Isn't there a saying about 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'??

I feel it's time someone said this. I feel the Xian/ Catholic church is responsible for a large amount of the 'sexually deviant' behaviour in society today. Firstly because they characterise natural behaviour as such, secondly because their practises 'encourage' such behaviour. Catholic boarding schools are hotbeds of homosexuality, the whole 'confession' thing engenders males to look up to other males as a source of release- obviously some Catholic priests have taken this a little too literally (still, at least they get to keep their jobs...). Corporal punishment in these establishments leaves some with a taste for Sado-Masochism, in fact I don't know anyone into S&M who didn't attend a boarding school, and the majority of those were catholic schools...plus catholics teach you to take the 'body of christ' into your mouth. Dodgy symbolism.
      ;D ;)
End Quote

Hi goodsin. Believe me or not, I agree with most of what you say here. Both the Catholic and Episcopalian Church have gotten themselves into a heap of trouble. The reason for this is because neither religion claims Scripture (the Word of God) as their ultimate authority. The Catholic Church believes that the Pope/Vatican and Catholic tradition supercedes Scripture. The Episcopalian Church has recently stated that they go by the Holy Spirit and their "community", which is strange because the Holy Spirit does not go against the Word of God.

Quoting:

Last time I looked, buggery referred to anal sex between two humans. I don't claim Xmas is the Black Mass, because I don't know about either. I've got nothing against those who spout rightist propaganda (someone needs to stand up for seperatism in society), but when the truth is extended to fit those views, then something needs to be said...or does the Xian angle now teach that bestiality & buggery are one and the same??

Someone in a later thread states the usual alarmist rubbish  that greater rights for gays may open the doors of society to further 'evils' such as paedophilia- the Catholic & Anglian church currently refuses to condemn its' own staff whom have commited such acts;(sweep it under the carpet & move pervert to another area), plus there are church staff who openly practise homosexuality. Isn't there a saying about 'people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'??

I feel it's time someone said this. I feel the Xian/ Catholic church is responsible for a large amount of the 'sexually deviant' behaviour in society today. Firstly because they characterise natural behaviour as such, secondly because their practises 'encourage' such behaviour. Catholic boarding schools are hotbeds of homosexuality, the whole 'confession' thing engenders males to look up to other males as a source of release- obviously some Catholic priests have taken this a little too literally (still, at least they get to keep their jobs...). Corporal punishment in these establishments leaves some with a taste for Sado-Masochism, in fact I don't know anyone into S&M who didn't attend a boarding school, and the majority of those were catholic schools...plus catholics teach you to take the 'body of christ' into your mouth. Dodgy symbolism.
End Quote

Man, I must be gayer than I thought.

What you said made less sense than anything anyone else has ever said in the history of this universe. I'm guessing you have your own closet to come out of if you think consuming the body of Christ is symbolic of a homosexual act.

Catholicism ain't perfect, but for the sake of St. Barnibatius, CRAM IT!

Quoting:


Obviously, neither people nor any other creatures that don't reproduce don't pass on there genes, but have you never heard of mutations?  Small, harmless ones occure all the time and cause any number of differences in the offspring.  My dad, for example, is slightly club footed.  I am not, my son is.  Genes are also dominant or recessive - blue eyes are resessive, you need 2 blue eye genes to get them.  

End Quote

Mutations from what I understand are always a "defect" rather than an enhancement. Mutations are negative and in the animal kingdom are usually weeded out through survival of the fittest.

Quoting:
Whether homosexuality is purely genetic is also a question, as is how that might work.  This is just another example of the "nature vrs nurture" debate.  The tendancy might be geneitic, and brought out by experience.End Quote

So there is no proof that homosexuality is genetic, or that people are born homosexual.

Quoting:


Express your views all you want.  That is your right, and I respect that right.  Nor do I expect you to celebrate those things you find abhorant.  Your attitude is very "Vermont" - just don't scare the horses.  The problem arises when, for example, Texas outlaws "sodomy".  When I was a teen, oral sex was illegal in my state, so teens parking could be arrested for it, but not for having intercourse while "parking".  Rediculous, no?  Religiously inspired laws against harmless acts have no place in a secular society (this statement would not invalidate laws against pedophilia or rape etc. since these acts ARE harmful).  
End Quote

Ridiculous, yes.

I also agree that it is unrealistic to have laws against anything adults may do in the privacy of their own home, providing, as you state, they are consensual and harm no one.

My problem with gay union is that now it comes out of the bedroom and into the public eye, and places a governmental endorsment upon it. With this I disagree.

Pedophilia is very harmful, on this we agree.
Don Carlos, do you know what NAMBLA is?

Quoting:
I disagree that "gays should try to understand these people as well as be tolerant for the sake of peace".  That is not how change is brought about.  That would be like telling black people to understand and tolerate Bull Conner, who wouldn't let them register to vote.  Discrimination MUST BE confronted, hatred and bigotry must be challanged, for when good people of conscience do nothing, evil wins.End Quote

You assumed I meant for gays to tolerate discrimination, hatred, bigotry and injustice, it seems.

No.

By my saying this:

Gays have come a long way and times are still changing. Equality will come eventually and is positively closer than it ever was. Homosexuality has become, for the most part, socially accepted. For some people, it's just a matter of general acceptance, getting used to the idea. Some people will never accept, but gays must try to understand these people as well and be tolerant for the sake of peace.

I meant that gays must try to understand these people who may never accept homosexuality and be tolerant of their difference in opinion, which is their absolute right.

As far as gays standing-up for their cause, a great number are doing all they can and have been doing so for the past three decades. As I stated earlier, they've come a long way.

As well intentioned as your pep talk was, I do believe gay people and those who support them are already "fighting the fight".  ;) :)

Quoting:
May I remind everyone that sex with someone who is not your spouse is considered "fornication" and is a sin, according to the bible.  Guess we're all (well, most of us ;)) are going south!
End Quote

so Im gonna be alone in the north?

but I can get a technicality here...what if its your future spouse?

Quoting:


so Im gonna be alone in the north?

but I can get a technicality here...what if its your future spouse?
End Quote

You bring up a good point in the question you ask.

I think one of the interesting things about the christians I have as friends are they all admit they "sin" from time to time. But what seperates them from the gays who say god is cruel and wrong, are my christian friends always say they want to try to live as much according to their religion as possible even though they slip up from time to time. They understand to that end, God is forgiving and nobody is perfect. Gays, however will find a passage from the bible about how many differnt kinds of string are in a cloth and then point the finger that God is cruel and will send them to hell. According to the christains I know, they would say as long as you ask for forgivness, God will give it to you and let you in heaven.

Anyways, I do not know nearly enough about religion to speak about it like a priest or someone who goes to church could. I will leave it for others to anwser what it all means.

My objections with homosexuality are not based on religion. My objections are based on gays being so aggresive and arrogent in demanding others unconditionally accept them and celebrate their cause. It gets old real quick. Not to mention, why should I support something which I personally think is disgusting? Why should 99% of people who believe marrige is between a woman and a man allow a small minority to change that definition when so many in the majority would be insulted by it.

Modified to add: I am not religious, but even I was offended at the tactis some gays will use to slander religion which means so much to so many people. It is so offensive and rude for a gay person to say:" Your god is wrong because he does not accept a behavior I want to do". That kind of statement tells me that all a gay person cares about is their own happiness, so why should we care about them?

Quoting:

I think one of the interesting things about the christians I have as friends are they all admit they "sin" from time to time. But what seperates them from the gays who say god is cruel and wrong, are my christian friends always say they want to try to live as much according to their religion as possible even though they slip up from time to time. They understand to that end, God is forgiving and nobody is perfect. Gays, however will find a passage from the bible about how many differnt kinds of string are in a cloth and then point the finger that God is cruel and will send them to hell. According to the christains I know, they would say as long as you ask for forgivness, God will give it to you and let you in heaven.

Anyways, I do not know nearly enough about religion to speak about it like a priest or someone who goes to church could. I will leave it for others to anwser what it all means.

My objections with homosexuality are not based on religion. My objections are based on gays being so aggresive and arrogent in demanding others unconditionally accept them and celebrate their cause. It gets old real quick. Not to mention, why should I support something which I personally think is disgusting? Why should 99% of people who believe marrige is between a woman and a man allow a small minority to change that definition when so many in the majority would be insulted by it.

Modified to add: I am not religious, but even I was offended at the tactis some gays will use to slander religion which means so much to so many people. It is so offensive and rude for a gay person to say:" Your god is wrong because he does not accept a behavior I want to do". That kind of statement tells me that all a gay person cares about is their own happiness, so why should we care about them?
End Quote

Your characterization of gays is quite faulty, my friend.  I can't speak for all of us, but personally, I certainly do NOT think that "god" is cruel or wrong.  The point I've been trying to make is exactly the opposite, actually.  To me, the concept of "god" is a concept of PURE LOVE.  PURE PERFECTION.  And pure understanding.  The god I believe in would never punish any creature he created for something that did no harm to any other of his creatures.  Therefore, I think that god is perfect.  It it his christian followers who I think are greatly mistaken.  And pointing out the sins like wearing polyester or touching a pig's skin is also not me pointing out that god is cruel...  it's me pointing out the hypcorisy and dogma his "followers" adhere to.  The bible is a tome of dogma and laws that is more often used to spread bigotry, hate and separatism than love (which should be the point of relgion, period!).  And, it was written by humans, so I certainly don't hold "god" accountable for his humans. I am reminded of a wonderful quote : "Dear God, please save me from your followers!"

And once again, I just want to point out that your ideas of numbers are a bit skewed.  99% of people certainly do not believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, the MAJORITY of people are not so close-minded as you think!  in fact, 10-20% of ALL PEOPLE are gay...  Then you take into accoutn the vast numbers of people in addition to those who are opening their minds and accepting human diversity and equality, even though they are not gay.  

And, honestly.  "It is so offensive and rude for a gay person to say:" Your god is wrong because he does not accept a behavior I want to do".  You think THAT is offensive and rude?  I think about the men who PROTEST the murder of an innocent boy because he was gay, holding signs that say "GOD HATES FAGS".  That, my friend, is rude and offensive.

Quoting:


Why should 99% of people who believe marrige is between a woman and a man allow a small minority to change that definition when so many in the majority would be insulted by it.

End Quote

I don't think the percentage is anywhere near that high.

Quoting:


what if its your future spouse?
End Quote

Doesn't matter. If you're not already married, to each other, it's fornication.

Quoting:


Doesn't matter. If you're not already married, to each other, it's fornication.
End Quote

aha, but is it still a sin?  


I really just playing here

Quoting:
Homosexuals in history: Alexander the Great had a male lover. The toughest guy in history was gay. Heck, all the Greek men were gay. It was a homosexual civilization. Why do we find it to be so wrong now?

End Quote

In Ancient Greece (and Imperial Rome), homosexuality wasn't considered a taboo. In fact, in Athens it wasn't only seen to be normal to have a same-sex partner (among men, at least), it was encouraged. This was partly due to the laws at the time with regards to status in the city-state. It was something of a mark of status to have a lover of equal standing in the community, and as only Athenian-born males could be citizens, those of the highest status had Athenian-born males as lovers. Homosexuality wasn't only accepted, it was accepted. Heracles (Hercules) had a male lover. Zeus, the king of the gods, had Ganymede as a male lover at one point. In Imperial Rome, all kinds of sexual perversions were seen as perfectly natural. Even incest and bestiality were practised with impunity. No one cared. It was only after the establishment of the Judeo-Christian religions that sexual behaviour became taboo. Even normal male-female sex is stigmatised by Christianity (and Judaism and Islam). Hinduism, on the other hand, celebrates it as part of the ultimate celebration of life.  

Quoting:

Man, I must be gayer than I thought.

What you said made less sense than anything anyone else has ever said in the history of this universe. I'm guessing you have your own closet to come out of if you think consuming the body of Christ is symbolic of a homosexual act.

Catholicism ain't perfect, but for the sake of St. Barnibatius, CRAM IT!
End Quote

No closets here, mate. I don't think homosexuality is something that is necessary to hide. I wasn't stating that all catholics are gay, merely that I think the repressive/ single sex environments of some religions engender types of behaviour considered deviant by those religions. I realise these are controversial opinions, but that's what they are, opinions. They are only controversial because they challenge people to think of things from a different angle. If those reading are unable to appreciate that, well... I thought about shutting up for the sake of St Barnabatius (who he??), but then realised I would be succumbing to the same sort of bullying anyone commenting on religion has had to endure for the last 2,000 years. As this is the 2000s, I won't withdraw from stating my opinions, even if there are people who don't agree. Please feel free to disregard them if you wish. :-*

Quoting:



I think one of the interesting things about the christians I have as friends are they all admit they "sin" from time to time. But what seperates them from the gays who say god is cruel and wrong, are my christian friends always say they want to try to live as much according to their religion as possible even though they slip up from time to time. They understand to that end, God is forgiving and nobody is perfect. Gays, however will find a passage from the bible about how many differnt kinds of string are in a cloth and then point the finger that God is cruel and will send them to hell. According to the christains I know, they would say as long as you ask for forgivness, God will give it to you and let you in heaven.

End Quote

I'm getting the feeling that nobody is reading the "crazy religious guy's" posts...

*Please note: This is a Christian viewpoint and may not be shared by all...*


Of course Christians sin. We ALL sin. The Pope has sinned. Mother Theresa sinned. Bob Hope sinned. I sin everyday. You have to understand that sin is more than just lying and stealing and the like. Gossip is sin. Being jealous is sin. Lusting is sin. Jesus said if you look at a woman (or man) with lust in your heart then you have commited adultery.

What exactly is sin?

The word "sin" actually means "missing the mark". God has outlined for us how He expects us to behave in the Bible. Anything short of this "perfect, holy" behavior is missing the mark, or sin. If one could conduct their lives to the end perfectly, without sinning, then they would have "earned" a place in heaven.

Truth is, you cannot earn you way into heaven. This is what separates true Christianity from all other religions. All other "religions" (including some "Christian" ones, I'm afraid) are systems of earning one's way into heaven.

But none of us are perfect, right? We all sin, right?
So, like cheer said, we're all going to hell, right?

We would be, if Christ had not paid the penalty for us. The penalty for sin is eternal death (separation from God). Christ left His place in heaven to come to earth in human form and live a perfect life, thus fulfilling God's law. He died on the cross so that sinners like you and me could be reconciled to God. What Christ accomplished in fulfilling the law can now be claimed by anyone. It is a free gift, and it is called forgiveness.

But how do we get this gift? Is it automatically given to everyone?

No. We first must ask for it.

Is that all, just ask? If I ask God to forgive me can I go on and do as I like?

Not quite. We claim our gift through confession and repentance of our sin. Confession here actually means "to agree with someone."  Repentance literally means "a change of mind." What this means is that to receive forgiveness one must agree with God that sin is wrong and also agree to turn from it. This does not mean we do not slip up, this means we make a conscious effort to avoid sin.

Here is where the problem is...If you don't agree that a particular sin is wrong, then how are you going to ask forgiveness for it?

Quoting:
Getting away from religion for a moment, doesn't the constitution guarantee us "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?  If gay marriage is what makes a homosexual happy, it's not harming anyone else, who is the government to say that they can't do that?
End Quote

Government has long had laws which tell two otherwise consenting adults they can not engage in certain behaviors. What about prostitution? That is an activity between two people who agree, and want to do it. What about that middle school teacher in Seattle, the woman wanted to marry her 12 year old student and got pregnant by him. They both agreed they wanted to be together? Where do you draw the line with devient sex?

I think society has a right to legislate for the majority's happiness, not just some small group. If most married people believe marrige is a holy joining of two spirts and is reserved to a man and a woman, then why should gays take that away from them? Should one gay person be happy so that 10 normal married people are not?

Quoting:


Mutations from what I understand are always a "defect" rather than an enhancement. Mutations are negative and in the animal kingdom are usually weeded out through survival of the fittest.



So there is no proof that homosexuality is genetic, or that people are born homosexual.
End Quote

Not true.  Mutations are changes in the genetic sequence.  Most are benign, some are harmful, and some beneficial, ie making the creature more adaptable to it's niche or to another niche.  

And your second statement does not follow logically from your first (erronious) statement even if it were correct.  Several posts above add detail to the notion of a genetic basis for homosexuality, with some degree of scientific accuracy.  You might want to consult them.

Quoting:


Ridiculous, yes.

I also agree that it is unrealistic to have laws against anything adults may do in the privacy of their own home, providing, as you state, they are consensual and harm no one.

My problem with gay union is that now it comes out of the bedroom and into the public eye, and places a governmental endorsment upon it. With this I disagree.

Pedophilia is very harmful, on this we agree.
Don Carlos, do you know what NAMBLA is?



End Quote

You seem like a very reasonable religious person.  

So let me suggest that since the secular state provides benefits for heterosexual couples, don't you think it should also provide those same benefits to homosexual couples?  This is not a matter of religious conviction - I have no problem if you consider gay activity a sin, don't do it then - it is a matter of public policy.  These are 2 very different areas.  So it's not a matter of "government endorsement" but of government neutrality in the awarding of benefits.  I hope you see the difference.  

No, I don't know what NAMBLA is. ???  Enlighten me please  ;D

Quoting:


(1) You assumed I meant for gays to tolerate discrimination, hatred, bigotry and injustice, it seems.

No.

By my saying this:

(2) Gays have come a long way and times are still changing. Equality will come eventually and is positively closer than it ever was. Homosexuality has become, for the most part, socially accepted. For some people, it's just a matter of general acceptance, getting used to the idea. Some people will never accept, but gays must try to understand these people as well and be tolerant for the sake of peace.

I meant that gays must try to understand these people who may never accept homosexuality and be tolerant of their difference in opinion, which is their absolute right.

(3) As far as gays standing-up for their cause, a great number are doing all they can and have been doing so for the past three decades. As I stated earlier, they've come a long way.

As well intentioned as your pep talk was, I do believe gay people and those who support them are already "fighting the fight".  ;) :)


End Quote

1. Everyone, as I have said before, and elsewhere, is entitled to their prejudices (although one would hope that they exent no further than food and other inannimate choices - I HATE liver), but no one should be entitles to turn their prerjudices into discrimination or public policy.

2. Tolerate personal prejudices, yes.  They are inevitable in any case, but NOT tolerate the institutionalization of those prejudices - in terms of black people they were called "Jim Crow" laws, I guess for gays we would have to talk about "rainbow triangle" laws.  There are still people who call Puerto Ricans "spiks" and I do tolerate them, but not if they try to pass anti-spik laws.

3.  Yes, gay people and their allies are fighting the fight for equality.  My point was that they, and their allies, can use all the support we can get.  I'm not a woman, but I regularly march in my college's Take Back the Night march, because I believe in sexual equality, even though I have relatively little fear of walking alone at night.  Neither should women.  Neither should gays.  As I said in other posts, we're all cousins.  We need to look out for each other and support each other.  To be silent in the face of evil is to aquies to evil.  My rant was aimed at those of you are are of good heart and good conscience to actively stand up for what you belive.

Quoting:


Government has long had laws which tell two otherwise consenting adults they can not engage in certain behaviors. What about prostitution? That is an activity between two people who agree, and want to do it. What about that middle school teacher in Seattle, the woman wanted to marry her 12 year old student and got pregnant by him. They both agreed they wanted to be together? Where do you draw the line with devient sex?

I think society has a right to legislate for the majority's happiness, not just some small group. If most married people believe marrige is a holy joining of two spirts and is reserved to a man and a woman, then why should gays take that away from them? Should one gay person be happy so that 10 normal married people are not?
End Quote

Before commenting on the above, let me ask why we have driffted off the topic - CIVIL RIGHTS FOR GAY PEOPLE - to an endless discussion of sin etc?  Most of those posts I read suggest a +/- Catholic response - ask for forgiveness, do penance, get forgiven.  Of course the Calvinist faiths don't buy this.  For them, God has decided where yoiu will go, and nothing you can do will change that, and it it blasphamy even to try to figure out what God has in  store for you.  It's call predestination - read Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism for what he sees as its implication.  It has NOTHING to do with the question of gay rights.

Now, J.S., why should prostitution be illegal?  Who does it hurt?  I'm not suggesting that it is a good thing, but I'm sitting here smoking a cigarette and sipping on some rum.  Neither of them good things, but both legal.  The teacher in Seattele was guilty of pedophelia, period.

I want to know how gay people getting married effects my happiness.  I'm not gay, so I could simply shrug my shoulders and say "who cares", but other people's happiness is involved.  That they get the satisfaction of the state sanctioning their union, and providing them the benefits attached to that sanction effects me not at all.

As you may know, Cat and I are getting married in Oct.  We have lived together for 5 years now.  Will our legal status change our relationship?  Not on a personal level, but on a legal one.  It will give her access to my med benefits, Soc Sec. survivors bennies, hospital visitation, med decisions, etc.  Why should not gay couples have these same rights and responsibilities?  And since we already  have a legal status that provides them, why complicate matters by creating another?

Quoting:


Government has long had laws which tell two otherwise consenting adults they can not engage in certain behaviors. What about prostitution? That is an activity between two people who agree, and want to do it. What about that middle school teacher in Seattle, the woman wanted to marry her 12 year old student and got pregnant by him. They both agreed they wanted to be together? Where do you draw the line with devient sex?

I think society has a right to legislate for the majority's happiness, not just some small group. If most married people believe marrige is a holy joining of two spirts and is reserved to a man and a woman, then why should gays take that away from them? Should one gay person be happy so that 10 normal married people are not?
End Quote

1.  As was stated by DC, the teacher in Seattle was committing a crime, for which she was convicted.  A child of 12 is not mature enough to consent to sex.  That's why it's illegal.  It's called statutory rape.  Who is hurt by prostitution?  If it is legalized, and regulated, as it is in some areas in Nevada, less people will be hurt by it (i.e. disease, etc.).  

2.  So, if gays are allowed to marry, that is going to lessen the happiness of straights married couples?  How?  By allowing others to do something they don't think is right?  So, if a majority of the country were recovering alcoholics, and didn't think drinking was right, you'd say not to allow that too?  Don't get it.

Quoting:

No, I don't know what NAMBLA is. ???  Enlighten me please  ;D
End Quote

NAMBLA is the North American Man-Boy Love Association. It's a pedophile activist group campaigning for the right for male adults to have sex with underage boys. It is an extremist deviant group however, and does not represent the majority of homosexual males. Groups like this should not be seen as an excuse for the continual persecution of homosexuals. Heterosexuals can be pedophiles, as well.

Quoting:


Not true.  Mutations are changes in the genetic sequence.  Most are benign, some are harmful, and some beneficial, ie making the creature more adaptable to it's niche or to another niche.  

And your second statement does not follow logically from your first (erronious) statement even if it were correct.  Several posts above add detail to the notion of a genetic basis for homosexuality, with some degree of scientific accuracy.  You might want to consult them.
End Quote

Actually, in the post you replied to here, there was a quote by you inbetween my first and second statements, that is why they do not logically follow each other. You said: "Whether homosexuality is purely genetic is also a question, as is how that might work.  This is just another example of the "nature vrs nurture" debate.  The tendancy might be geneitic, and brought out by experience. " (emphasis added)

So I said, "So there is no proof that homosexuality is genetic, or that people are born homosexual. "

Quoting:


NAMBLA is the North American Man-Boy Love Association. It's a pedophile activist group campaigning for the right for male adults to have sex with underage boys. It is an extremist deviant group however, and does not represent the majority of homosexual males. Groups like this should not be seen as an excuse for the continual persecution of homosexuals. Heterosexuals can be pedophiles, as well.
End Quote

My point in mentioning NAMBLA is to back up my contention that acceptance of homosexuality will lead to acceptance of pedopilia and the like. It has already started.

Pedophiles can be heterosexual, but they are not the ones "campaigning for the right for male adults to have sex with underage boys.".

Quoting:


1.  As was stated by DC, the teacher in Seattle was committing a crime, for which she was convicted.  A child of 12 is not mature enough to consent to sex.  That's why it's illegal.  It's called statutory rape.  Who is hurt by prostitution?  If it is legalized, and regulated, as it is in some areas in Nevada, less people will be hurt by it (i.e. disease, etc.).  

2.  So, if gays are allowed to marry, that is going to lessen the happiness of straights married couples?  How?  By allowing others to do something they don't think is right?  So, if a majority of the country were recovering alcoholics, and didn't think drinking was right, you'd say not to allow that too?  Don't get it.
End Quote

1) From the last report I watched on TV, the kid who is now 18 still wants to marry her and I think she is having a second child. Even the boys parents want them to get married. I guess some may point to that and say "See, it worked out". Same point here with gays. It is a slippery slope. If we let it apply to any devient sex, then everyone with a fettish will want the same thing.

As for prostitution, I would not want a "working girl" in my neighborhood. That leads to all sorts of devient behavior. As I have said before, that starts a slippary slope.

2) It would make marrige seem less worthy. If someone can marry a disgusting habit, that would make people not think marrige is worth so much. Marrige is supposed to be a man and a woman, kids, a good life. How can gays have children? They would have to go outside of the "union" to get a child, and that is not what marrige is.

A second point: I think gays want to ruin marrige. I think they want to destroy the happiness of others because they are unhappy. To that end, they are trying to destroy institutions which mean a great deal to many, many people. Misery loves company.


Modified to add: My main objection to gays are they celebrate something which no other person would. It just is not normal.

Quoting:

It's just a matter of changing times.  40 or so years ago, I would have been called a "tramp" because I was pregnant when I got married.  Nowdays, it's commonplace.  I think homosexuality is moving along the same lines...40 years from now, it will be no big thing.  

End Quote

Thank you Cheer. This also backs up my contention about acceptance of homosexuality leading to acceptance of pedophilia.

Pregnancy out of wedlock was something to be ashamed of a few decades ago. And homosexuality was considered "disgusting" by the vast majority even as pre-marital pregnancy was beginning to become commonplace.

Now, women are getting pregnant with no intention of getting married, and it's "no big deal". As you say, 40 years from now homosexuality will be no big deal. It's called desensitization.


Do you really think it will stop there?

Quoting:


My point in mentioning NAMBLA is to back up my contention that acceptance of homosexuality will lead to acceptance of pedopilia and the like. It has already started.


End Quote

I don't agree, and I can't see how acceptance of homosexuality between consenting adults will lead to acceptance of pedophilia, which is essentially the rape of children. It's like saying smoking cigarettes will lead a person to take heroin. It doesn't follow. Because homosexuality is seen as deviant behaviour by modern society, there is a belief that it will lead to other deviant, even abhorrent behaviour. There is a belief that homosexuals are more likely to be child molesters, for example, but most cases of child sexual abuse occur within heterosexual families. It is ingrained into the modern psyche that one deviant or aberrant behaviour will lead to another, and that is just not necessarily the case. Pedophilia has never been acceptable and there's no reason to think it will be just because we can open our minds to homosexuality.

Quoting:
Pregnancy out of wedlock was something to be ashamed of a few decades ago. And homosexuality was considered "disgusting" by the vast majority even as pre-marital pregnancy was beginning to become commonplace.

Now, women are getting pregnant with no intention of getting married, and it's "no big deal". As you say, 40 years from now homosexuality will be no big deal. It's called desensitization.
End Quote

While you have more clearly defined your arguments with this post, I still find myself disagreeing with you. Desensitisation doesn't equal acceptance. We can become desensitised to people dying in road accidents, but I don't think we can "accept" that they should happen. We become desensitised to a junkie carking it in a park, but we can't and shouldn't "accept" that it should continue. Just as we can become desensitised to unwed mothers, many people still can't "accept" them. To be a single mother still carries an enormous stigma, despite whatever circumstance caused that person to be a single mother. When many people read or hear the phrase "single mother", what is their immediate reaction? Odds on, it's be something along the lines of "she's a wanton tart paying the price for her casual ways". And that may be true, but someone can become a single mother in other ways: they could be divorced, separated, widowed, the victim of rape... the list goes on. So while the idea of someone being an unwed or single mother may be "no big deal" these days, it still carries a stigma. As does homosexuality, and there's no way of telling that these stigmas will wash away in 40 years, or 100.

Quoting:


1) From the last report I watched on TV, the kid who is now 18 still wants to marry her and I think she is having a second child. Even the boys parents want them to get married. I guess some may point to that and say "See, it worked out". Same point here with gays. It is a slippery slope. If we let it apply to any devient sex, then everyone with a fettish will want the same thing.

As for prostitution, I would not want a "working girl" in my neighborhood. That leads to all sorts of devient behavior. As I have said before, that starts a slippary slope. End Quote

Why?  If it is legalized and there are certain criteria (i.e. drug free, disease free, etc.) what would make her different than say someone selling Tupperware out of her home?  

Quoting:2) It would make marrige seem less worthy. If someone can marry a disgusting habit, that would make people not think marrige is worth so much. Marrige is supposed to be a man and a woman, kids, a good life. How can gays have children? They would have to go outside of the "union" to get a child, and that is not what marrige is.End Quote

So, those heterosexual couples who are not able to have children and go outside the "union" to a surrogate or sperm/egg donor are not in a "marriage" because of their inability to have a child naturally?  I'll have to let my neighbor who had to use a surrogate and donated eggs that she is not really "married" to her husband because of this ::)

Quoting:A second point: I think gays want to ruin marrige. I think they want to destroy the happiness of others because they are unhappy. To that end, they are trying to destroy institutions which mean a great deal to many, many people. Misery loves company.End Quote

 You still haven't said HOW they are trying to "ruin" the happiness of others.  Are you saying that they have no right to be happy themselves?  That they have no right to want to spend the rest of their lives with someone they love?  I hold my marriage sacred, and take my vows seriously, but is a gay couple wanting to marry going to destroy the "institution" of marriage?  Not in MY book.

Quoting:
Modified to add: My main objection to gays are they celebrate something which no other person would. It just is not normal.

End Quote

And, what would that be?  Just to let you know, there are more people than you know that enjoy a certain type of "deviant sex."  I won't get graphic, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Quoting:


Thank you Cheer. This also backs up my contention about acceptance of homosexuality leading to acceptance of pedophilia.

End Quote

Sorry, I disagree.  There is a BIG difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.  Homosexual acts usually occur between 2 consenting adults.  In pedophilia, there is 1 adult and 1 CHILD, who is not able to consent.  Also, most cases of pedophilia are heterosexual in nature.

Quoting:
Here's the official Catholic take on gays: Gays can't get married because gay marriage can't fulfill one of the two requirements of marriage. Marriage is a way to express love for your spouse, but marriage is also the basis for a family. Homosexuals cannot fulfil the procreation aspect of marriage, so they can't get married. Gays are then expected to carry the same responsibilities of single persons (i.e. no sex). Gays are to be treated with the same respect as everyone else in the world. Being Gay is not a sin.
End Quote

P.S. This is the Church's take on homosexuality, not my own. I think gays should be able to marry.

Quoting:
Being Gay is not a sin.
End Quote

I think the Catholic church does consider being gay as a sin.

Quoting:
You still haven't said HOW they are trying to "ruin" the happiness of others.  Are you saying that they have no right to be happy themselves?  
End Quote

I stated the reason multiple times. Maybe you missed it while you were rolling your eyes.

Quoting:
Now, J.S., why should prostitution be illegal?  Who does it hurt?  I'm not suggesting that it is a good thing, but I'm sitting here smoking a cigarette and sipping on some rum.  Neither of them good things, but both legal.
End Quote

Prostitution brings all sorts of evils. How many married men went to a wh@re instead of talking to their wife? Prostitutes also lose the best years of their lives selling their @ss for what? Everything in your house can be sold and purchased again, the one thing you can not buy is your time. How would you like to lose your 20's because society made it easy to make a few $$'s? What about when you are in your 30's or 40's and your one asset is gone, how will you pay the bills? Don, money is evil. In a perfect world, we would not need it.

As for the homosexual rights part:

I just want to believe in family. I want to live in a place where I do not have to explain to my kids what two men kissing are doing. It is just sick to me. Disgusting.

Quoting:


1. Everyone, as I have said before, and elsewhere, is entitled to their prejudices (although one would hope that they exent no further than food and other inannimate choices - I HATE liver), but no one should be entitles to turn their prerjudices into discrimination or public policy.

2. Tolerate personal prejudices, yes.  They are inevitable in any case, but NOT tolerate the institutionalization of those prejudices - in terms of black people they were called "Jim Crow" laws, I guess for gays we would have to talk about "rainbow triangle" laws.  There are still people who call Puerto Ricans "spiks" and I do tolerate them, but not if they try to pass anti-spik laws.

3.  Yes, gay people and their allies are fighting the fight for equality.  My point was that they, and their allies, can use all the support we can get.  I'm not a woman, but I regularly march in my college's Take Back the Night march, because I believe in sexual equality, even though I have relatively little fear of walking alone at night.  Neither should women.  Neither should gays.  As I said in other posts, we're all cousins.  We need to look out for each other and support each other.  To be silent in the face of evil is to aquies to evil.  My rant was aimed at those of you are are of good heart and good conscience to actively stand up for what you belive.
End Quote

The original meaning of my post, a couple of pages back, was lost amidst your "activist" twists on my words. :-/

Quoting:
I want to live in a place where I do not have to explain to my kids what two men kissing are doing.
End Quote

I'll just comment on the quote above -

I wouldn't think it would be an issue unless the kids grow-up uneducated about the fact that homosexuals exist or if exposed to prejudice against them. I'd think they wouldn't give it a second thought.

Children learn what they live.

Quoting:
Children learn what they live.
End Quote

Here is wisdom. Teach your children well. Education is everything.

Quoting:
I want to live in a place where I do not have to explain to my kids what two men kissing are doing. End Quote

Tell the kids that the men are European or something.  Not meant to be offensive, it's just what they do :P

Quoting:


I'll just comment on the quote above -

I wouldn't think it would be an issue unless the kids grow-up uneducated about the fact that homosexuals exist or if exposed to prejudice against them. I'd think they wouldn't give it a second thought.

Children learn what they live.
End Quote

I do not want to have a child educated about homosexuality. If I told them anything, I would tell them it was wrong and that would be the end of the discussion. But I would preffer not to talk about homosexuality at all. I would rather talk to them about baseball or school work.

See, this is how gays intrude on my rights by having people tell me "You have to expose your children to homosexuality and it's wonderfull world". Should I also tell my kids about alcoholics and prostitutes and every other social problem? How about letting them be kids? It is not my kids problem if someone else choses to be a homosexual. When the schools force a conversation about homosexuality it borders on child abuse. If I was 11 and someone wanted to talk to me about homosexuality that would make me very uncomfortable.

Quoting:
I think Homosexuality has helped contribute to destroying the American family.End Quote

I think the culprit there is divorce, not homosexuality.

Quoting:

I do not want to have a child educated about homosexuality. If I told them anything, I would tell them it was wrong and that would be the end of the discussion. But I would preffer not to talk about homosexuality at all. I would rather talk to them about baseball or school work.

See, this is how gays intrude on my rights by having people tell me "You have to expose your children to homosexuality and it's wonderfull world". Should I also tell my kids about alcoholics and prostitutes and every other social problem? How about letting them be kids? It is not my kids problem if someone else choses to be a homosexual. When the schools force a conversation about homosexuality it borders on child abuse. If I was 11 and someone wanted to talk to me about homosexuality that would make me very uncomfortable.

End Quote

Of course kids should be allowed to be kids.

I also think it is important not to raise them in a bubble. There are very simple and matter-of-fact ways of explaining the facts of life and the realities of the world to kids. This would ensure a secure, confident and positive attitude if the kids become unexpectedly exposed to one of the many realities of our world.

The truth is kids are going to learn about the world's realities one way or another. Much of the exposure will come from their experiences outside of the home, from school, friends, television, etc. Talking to kids about these things, again, in a simple and matter-of-fact way allows the parents/guardians the control of how these subjects are introduced and the opportunity to educate properly.

I'm not saying parents/guardians should teach kids about homosexuality; Just let them know it is out there, for it is a reality in our world. As a parent/guardian, whether you agree with homosexuality or not, you should do the best to express your opinion in a way where it does not instill prejudice in kids. How can we ever hope for a better world otherwise?

Quoting:


I think the culprit there is divorce, not homosexuality.
End Quote

Divorce is too easy a scapegoat. It is the devient sex and lack of strong morality which leads to divorce. It is also the weakening of the word marrige. That is one reason I do not want to see the meaning of the word diluted even more.

Quoting:


NAMBLA is the North American Man-Boy Love Association. It's a pedophile activist group campaigning for the right for male adults to have sex with underage boys. It is an extremist deviant group however, and does not represent the majority of homosexual males. Groups like this should not be seen as an excuse for the continual persecution of homosexuals. Heterosexuals can be pedophiles, as well.
End Quote

Thank you, and I quite agree with your characterization of them.  They are advocating statuatory rape.

Quoting:
Hiding homosexuals in closets has pretty much ended in many places, kids will see them, hear of them, be teased that they will become them, it needs to part of the learned experiance.
End Quote

Why is it neccesary for gays to expose their lifestyle to everyone? I do not yell out the window all my preferences about how I live, why do they (and with something that should be very personal)? Why shouldn't the gay community be more modest? Perhaps the closet is the wrong term, but keep it in the bedroom. I just don't want to see it.

Quoting:


Actually, in the post you replied to here, there was a quote by you inbetween my first and second statements, that is why they do not logically follow each other. You said: "Whether homosexuality is purely genetic is also a question, as is how that might work.  This is just another example of the "nature vrs nurture" debate.  The tendancy might be geneitic, and brought out by experience. " (emphasis added)

So I said, "So there is no proof that homosexuality is genetic, or that people are born homosexual. "

End Quote

Well, is there "proof" that people are born heterosexual?  Sexuality is obviously a very complex issue involving genetics and socialization.  I'm no expert on this so will not even try to advance uninformed opinions, but why would someone opt for a life style that, in our society, could only bring them grief?  Let me also say that when I "get in the mood" I know exactly (+/-) what I want (and Cat obliges  ;D).  Is that not the same for gays?  If so, is it not "natural" for them?

Quoting:


Why is it neccesary for gays to expose their lifestyle to everyone? I do not yell out the window all my preferences about how I live, why do they (and with something that should be very personal)? Why shouldn't the gay community be more modest? Perhaps the closet is the wrong term, but keep it in the bedroom. I just don't want to see it.

End Quote

John, I'm not sure where you live but I'm here in Seattle, a very socially and politically liberal city and I'm not surrounded by homosexuals.  Homosexuals don't stand on street corners waving signs, they don't fill my newspaper with gay issues, they don't have public car washed to raise money for "gay camp".  I know of them, I accept them, they pose no threat.  They are no more "exposed" than any other class of people in this town.

Quoting:


The original meaning of my post, a couple of pages back, was lost amidst your "activist" twists on my words. :-/
End Quote

If I twisted your words, it was unintentional.  If I misunderstod them, I apologize.

O.k. I'm sorry and I apologize. Sorry 80's Cheerleader :-[ :-[
I'll do as Don Carlos did and simply give my thoughts on Gay Rights.

Gay Rights: I say no to Gay Marriage, and I do not approve of Homosexuality and never will. That is my opinion.

P.S.

I feel as though we might as well all end this topic here and now. Obviously no one will change thier views on Gay Rights, so rather than agrue about it we might as well state our opinion and be done with it.
Therefore, I am done with this topic.

Quoting:


Why is it neccesary for gays to expose their lifestyle to everyone? I do not yell out the window all my preferences about how I live, why do they (and with something that should be very personal)? Why shouldn't the gay community be more modest? Perhaps the closet is the wrong term, but keep it in the bedroom. I just don't want to see it.
End Quote

When was the last time you saw two men having sex?

Quoting:
I can't beleive people even argue this stuff. It's basic human anatomy. A man had a penis and a woman has a vigina. The penis goes into the vigina. They make love and Children. The anus was made for human waste to come out of. What the hell ever happened to common sense? Want the answer? Go to the politically correct thread. Society is screwed up big time.

Tim
RATT-n-ROLL
End Quote

And the urinary tract (urethra) is located where and does what? ::)

Quoting:

When was the last time you saw two men having sex?
End Quote

Go back a few pages and read Zakks post. If you want to know more about it, I am sure he can help you.  ::)

The more I think about it, the less tolerant I become. It is no wonder normal people are beating the daylights out of gays because they will not stop pushing and pushing and pushing. I am now of the beliefe they should have no rights. Not even a civil union. The more they want to push, the more I will learn to hate. Enough is enough. They are worse than Jehova's Witnesses.

They want to take something unatural and force acceptance. It will never happen.

Quoting:

You all seem to talk about it as if it's just males who are gay too, what about females? Are they any more "acceptable"?


End Quote

sarcasm alert

Yes, females are more acceptable, because lesbians are hot. ::)

Quoting:


sarcasm alert

Yes, females are more acceptable, because lesbians are hot. ::)
End Quote

Ah, you are very wise, my young Padawan ;D

As for Boris' questions...no, I would not disown my kids, but I'd ask them to donate sperm and eggs so that my genetics can live on ;D

And as for the "icky" argument, arguing against gay marriage, to me (man or woman) is like arguing that ugly people shouldn't get married because they're all nasty :P

Quoting:
i'd be well stuffed if they'd passed the ugly law Rice.

I've no problem with two same sex people wanting to marry. It's their choice, no one elses, I can't see the attraction in it myself...only pain!  :o
End Quote

I don't see the attraction either, but I really have no right to stop them and I don't think the government should either.

And you're not ugly ;)

Btw, some girls I know like watching gay man porn :P  I'll stick with the lesbians, thank you ;D

Quoting:

The more I think about it, the less tolerant I become. It is no wonder normal people are beating the daylights out of gays because they will not stop pushing and pushing and pushing. I am now of the beliefe they should have no rights. Not even a civil union. The more they want to push, the more I will learn to hate. Enough is enough. They are worse than Jehova's Witnesses.
End Quote

You are a truly scary individual.  Have you ever heard the phrase "Live and Let Live"? :(

Quoting:
I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been covered before.

To all that are against and disgusted by the mere thought of homosexuals together can I ask what you'd do if your son or daughter came to you and said they were gay?

Would you disown them or would you then see it in a different light?

My husband and I have had this discussion a few times, and I can't begin to imagine parents who turn away from their child just because of their sexual preferences.

You all seem to talk about it as if it's just males who are gay too, what about females? Are they any more "acceptable"?


End Quote

It would not happen unless you have the kinds of education the gays want in schools. Normal people do not become gay. It is a fetish that some sick people like.

Quoting:
I have noticed something. A lot of porn flicks (usually created by and for heterosexual men) feature two women going at it. I have known many of heterosexual men who really like to watch that (just as long as the women are very feminine looking and not butch).  Could some of you men who enjoy watching that please tell me why it is ok to watch two women going at it but not two men? Is that a double standard? I am just curious.



Cat
End Quote

I think it's a fantasy thing, when men see that they envision them with him.  Also, women are a lot nicer to look at. :o

Quoting:


You are a truly scary individual.  Have you ever heard the phrase "Live and Let Live"? :(
End Quote

Yes. And I was all for "live and let live". But the more gays keep pushing their parade's and viewpoints, the less tolerant I become. Perhaps if anti-gays pushed their viewpoints that would be okay? Or would they be called "religious fanatics"? Gays are such an evil group. In the same breath which they ask for "extra rights" they will disparage good christians.

Quoting:


It would not happen unless you have the kinds of education the gays want in schools. Normal people do not become gay. It is a fetish that some sick people like.
End Quote

I am dumbfounded at your blind stupidity.  And I use stupidity to describe it cause ignorance is not the excuse.  The information to end your stupidity is avaialble to you, you refuse to aknowledge it.  John, please do the world better and hide yourself, I would choose to be the only hetero living in the center of Homotown than share a country with the likes of your thinking.  

Quoting:


It would not happen unless you have the kinds of education the gays want in schools. Normal people do not become gay. It is a fetish that some sick people like.
End Quote

Wow and I thought I talked a load of crap.

Quoting:


It would not happen unless you have the kinds of education the gays want in schools. Normal people do not become gay. It is a fetish that some sick people like.
End Quote

This is where I would say something really mean if this was unmoderated.

Quoting:


It would not happen unless you have the kinds of education the gays want in schools. Normal people do not become gay. It is a fetish that some sick people like.
End Quote

:-X

Lock this thread before it gets nasty.

Quoting:


:-X

Lock this thread before it gets nasty.
End Quote

Too late :(

Quoting:
My husband and I are raising and educating our four children in the Catholic faith.  I'd rather them be gay or lesbian than intolerant bigots.  Gee we bought our house from a lesbian couple - do you think we should have it fumigated - it may have homo germs :o
End Quote

I fear, jaytee, that your church isn't very tolerant about this issue :-/

Best of luck with your children, I'm sure they'll grow up fine :)

Quoting:

I am dumbfounded at your blind stupidity.  And I use stupidity to describe it cause ignorance is not the excuse.  The information to end your stupidity is avaialble to you, you refuse to aknowledge it.  John, please do the world better and hide yourself, I would choose to be the only hetero living in the center of Homotown than share a country with the likes of your thinking.  
End Quote

And your tolerance is shinning through. I guess gays have to have it their way, and anyone who's not in agreement with them is "blind" and "stupid".

Modifed to add: Yeah, this is the kind of "pushing" I was talking about. Gays want to be accepted regardless of the fact the majority says it is wrong. They are not happy being left alone. They want to pick a fight.

Quoting:
I can't beleive people even argue this stuff. It's basic human anatomy. A man had a penis and a woman has a vigina. The penis goes into the vigina. They make love and Children. The anus was made for human waste to come out of. What the hell ever happened to common sense? Want the answer? Go to the politically correct thread. Society is screwed up big time.

Tim
RATT-n-ROLL
End Quote

You certainly have a talent for cutting through the bull... ;D

Quoting:
I haven't read the whole thread so this may have been covered before.

To all that are against and disgusted by the mere thought of homosexuals together can I ask what you'd do if your son or daughter came to you and said they were gay?

Would you disown them or would you then see it in a different light?

End Quote

Absolutely not.

But they would know that I do not approve of their lifestyle.

Quoting:
John I think you forgot to list one of your phobias in the playful penguin place.

I can understand someone wanting to stand up and say what they believe in but surely you have to see people have the same rights as anyone else regardless of their sexual orientation...legal ones that is.


End Quote

Nope. No special rights for gays. They picked their lifestyle. The majority says it is wrong. God says it is wrong. And the gays keep fighting, calling God "evil" and everyone who opposes them "idiots" or "blind". I find it highly offensive for someone to mock another group because of disagreement the ways gays mock the church. That is what the gays have been doing with the church and anyone who opposes them. I for one will not have any problems with gay people who keep their lifestyle to themselves. But to the ones who decide to get on the bull horn and announce their choices and tell everyone else they are bigots, they are the ones I hate.

Gays are sicko's who picked their fetish.

Modified to add: Why should 1%, or less, tell everyone else how it's going to be, and who will have what rights.

Quoting:


Go back a few pages and read Zakks post. If you want to know more about it, I am sure he can help you.  ::)

The more I think about it, the less tolerant I become. It is no wonder normal people are beating the daylights out of gays because they will not stop pushing and pushing and pushing. I am now of the beliefe they should have no rights. Not even a civil union. The more they want to push, the more I will learn to hate. Enough is enough. They are worse than Jehova's Witnesses.

They want to take something unatural and force acceptance. It will never happen.
End Quote

I'm sorry John. I do like you but this is just so absurd. You really think that "normal" people go around beating people up? Do you really think that it was "normal" people who killed Matthew Sheppard? I know many gays and lesbians-in fact, there will be a few of them at my wedding-including my niece and her partner. You think it is unnatural for one human being to love another? Personally, I don't think so. I love many people-men and women. If someone is gay (which is NOT their choice) and does choose someone of their own gender as their lifelong partner, who is that hurting? Certainly not me. Is it hurting you? I don't think so. I truely believe that EVERYONE regardless of their race, religion, gender, age, and of course sexual orientation should NOT be a factor in their rights as a citizen or as a human being.

I know that there are some gays and lebians are pushing for their rights-but they HAVE to. If you read the thread in the PPP about "summer reading" and about women sufferage-it is the same thing. It was because these women pushed for their rights and we (as women) got them. Now, gays are pushing for their rights so that future generations will be able to have the same rights as we hetersexuals do. When the was last time a gay knocked on your door to try and "convert" you?


Cat

Quoting:



I'm sorry John. I do like you but this is just so absurd. You really think that "normal" people go around beating people up? Do you really think that it was "normal" people who killed Matthew Sheppard? I know many gays and lesbians-in fact, there will be a few of them at my wedding-including my niece and her partner. You think it is unnatural for one human being to love another? Personally, I don't think so. I love many people-men and women. If someone is gay (which is NOT their choice) and does choose someone of their own gender as their lifelong partner, who is that hurting? Certainly not me. Is it hurting you? I don't think so. I truely believe that EVERYONE regardless of their race, religion, gender, age, and of course sexual orientation should NOT be a factor in their rights as a citizen or as a human being.

I know that there are some gays and lebians are pushing for their rights-but they HAVE to. If you read the thread in the PPP about "summer reading" and about women sufferage-it is the same thing. It was because these women pushed for their rights and we (as women) got them. Now, gays are pushing for their rights so that future generations will be able to have the same rights as we hetersexuals do. When the was last time a gay knocked on your door to try and "convert" you?


Cat
End Quote

Cat, I too am sorry that this topic has turned bitter. A question was asked if gays should have equal rights. I said yes, but not marrige because that has special meaning to many people. Then it all went downhill with Zakk and the like labeling everyone who is a christian as having a "wrong" God. That is what made me reconsider it. If gays want to be tolerated, then they must understand they are in the minority and most people think what they do is immoral, instead of attacking everyone else. They pick how they live. They could just as easily chose not to be gay, just like a pedophile can pick not to molest children. They are identical. Remember, before political groups forced there way, homosexuality was considered a mental illness by psychologists.  

BTW, every time I turn on the TV and see a child molestor, why is it a homosexual male molesting a boy? That should tell you something about gays.

Quoting:


Cat, I too am sorry that this topic has turned bitter. A question was asked if gays should have equal rights. I said yes, but not marrige because that has special meaning to many people. Then it all went downhill with Zakk and the like labeling everyone who is a christian as having a "wrong" God. That is what made me reconsider it. If gays want to be tolerated, then they must understand they are in the minority and most people think what they do is immoral, instead of attacking everyone else. They pick how they live. They could just as easily chose not to be gay, just like a pedophile can pick not to molest children. They are identical. Remember, before political groups forced there way, homosexuality was considered a mental illness by psychologists.  

BTW, every time I turn on the TV and see a child molestor, why is it a homosexual male molesting a boy? That should tell you something about gays.

End Quote

Once again, I disagree with you. Homosexually is NOT a choice. People do not choose to be a homosexual just like I did not CHOOSE to be a hetersexual. It is just what they are not WHO they are. As for homosexually and pedophilia being the same-you are TOTALLY WRONG!!!! They are NOT the same. Pedophilia is a means of control. They rape kids-it is an act of violence against kids. Most homosexuals are loving people like hetersexuals and would never even think about doing that. Yes, some homosexuals are pedophiles just like some hetersexuals are too. but, they are NOT the same. That is like saying that because there are some men who are rapists so that means that ALL of them are. I'm sorry but I am just not buying that argument.


Cat

Quoting:


And your tolerance is shinning through. I guess gays have to have it their way, and anyone who's not in agreement with them is "blind" and "stupid". Go to hell.

Modifed to add: Yeah, this is the kind of "pushing" I was talking about. Gays want to be accepted regardless of the fact the majority says it is wrong. They are not happy being left alone. They want to pick a fight.
End Quote

Tolerance towards people trying to make the best of the life given, unifying thier love ceremonially in front of their family and friends and in the eyes of their (ours & yours) creater.  
Zero tolerance of those who spout hate and persecution, who chooses to blame societies ills on thing he cannot understand rather than actually aknowlege the problem.  
If homosexuals chose their path than you had to choose as well, tell me John, at the age of 12 did you consider to yourself, "H'mm girls or boys?"  
It is talk like yours that Hitler justified the termination of Jews, your talk is evil.