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We all have our prejedices-and it is not only based on race. You have hit upon some, RRF. Religion, political beliefs, economic status, etc. I too, am guilty just as much as the next person on this matter. I try not to judge people on what they are but WHO they are. I encounter all sorts of people in my work-the rich, the poor, people from almost every demonimation (including clergy), and just about everyone from all aspecets of the political spectrum. I try to treat them all with the same respect and I hope they do the same with me-even if I disagree with their ideology.



Cat
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Exactly!  I hate when people try to push thier beliefs on me....thanks for the reply, CatwomanofV ;)

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There is ALL kinds and on ALL levels...of course you have the worst, IMHO..people against people of different color.  I have NO problem with any race...so long as harmony can exist. From my side that's not ever an issue. Here are some examples of prejudice I have experienced...keep in mind that these may be considered VERY minor to most of you. Years ago I went to a 7-11 and the clerk cheerfully greeted me...we exchanged pleasantries until I took out my food stamp book...she then never uttered another word and turned into an ice queen.  I alo get somewhat aggravated with all those TV offers that offer extra things as long as you have a credit card!  Also growing up...my ex best friend judged me because I didn't make as much money as him or have a career or steady job...meanwhile he took over his fathers business....I have NO problem with him inheriting from family...my only problem with it was him judging ME.  Here's another big one...I was involved in the mormon church for a  long time...I played basketball for 15 seasons with my friends...I decided to get out of that situation because I was constantly pressured, threated and judged for my opinions.  I did not agree with thier foundation of thier church but just wanted them to leave me alone.  Instead they told me I would be forever punished by God if I left.  Here is my final one which kinda ties in with the Political Correctness thread. For this I am guilty of judging....I did not whine when Clinton did his two terms...I lived through it.  I became upset when the guy I voted for (Bush) WON the last election and all the liberals started to whine.  I should not have attacked them for thier opinions and have already been told so....so back to just being who I am...a nice quiet kind loving person....life is too short :)
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Bush did not win. He was appointed by a republican court. Last time I checked, Gore won the popular vote. Huge differance between apointing someone president and being ticked off that Clinton got more @ss than everyone else.

As for the other parts of what you said, I agree it is bad when someone judges another person. We do not all start out on an even playing field, so it is arrogant for someone "well to do" to critisize someone who is struggeling. The "well to do" person probably would drown if they had the same starting point in life.

Quoting:Last time I checked, Gore won the popular vote. End Quote

...and last time I checked, the popular vote means squat in an election.

I wasn't going to respond to this simply because theres not really much to respond to, I mean its the 2000 election for crying out loud.  But if you are still convinved Bush was "selected and not elected", go study USA Today's independent recount that concluded Bush did win.  

Sorry to burst your bubble John. ;)



But anyway, back on topic.  RRF I agree with your post.  You make some good points.  Prejudice can come in many forms.

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...and last time I checked, the popular vote means squat in an election.


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That sums up my reasons for hating the president. Bush is like OJ in that he had the better lawyers. Plus, Bush had the deck stacked. If the court was not so right wing extreme, Gore would be president. Remember, the Florida courts ruled on Gore's side. The dispute was in Florida and the court in Florida ruled for Gore. GW had to take it to a republican court outside of the state of Florida to get the presidancy handed to him as a gift.

So much for self determination...

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I was involved in the mormon church for a  long time...I played basketball for 15 seasons with my friends...I decided to get out of that situation because I was constantly pressured, threated and judged for my opinions.  I did not agree with thier foundation of thier church but just wanted them to leave me alone.  Instead they told me I would be forever punished by God if I left.
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Religious prejudice is a problem, Rocknrollfan. I was treated differently to people at school because of my religion so was not allowed to attend school assemblys because they contained hymns and prayers of other Christian religions. I always had people going on about why I don't celebrate birthdays and Christmas's and the blood issue was a nightmare. I didn't realise that for a 7-11 year old, sticking up for what you believe is a tough task. Of course, I had it easy compared to others who are experiencing Religious persecution.

I drifted away from my religion at the age of 19 (when I got the courage to walk away from it I suppose) and my problems occurred because of what was instilled in me at a young age and not because they were persecuting me - I guess they didn't need to.

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I was treated differently to people at school because of my religion so was not allowed to attend school assemblys because they contained hymns and prayers of other Christian religions.

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Hey, i was never Christian but they made me attend all our services in school and made me pray in primary school.

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Where I live in the North East of England, 99% of the population is white British.  
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British people?  In England? ;)

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That sums up my reasons for hating the president. Bush is like OJ in that he had the better lawyers. Plus, Bush had the deck stacked. If the court was not so right wing extreme, Gore would be president. Remember, the Florida courts ruled on Gore's side. The dispute was in Florida and the court in Florida ruled for Gore. GW had to take it to a republican court outside of the state of Florida to get the presidancy handed to him as a gift.

So much for self determination...
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Yes...by all means let's ONLY count the votes in a few gore counties....AND let's not forget all those overseas votes that Gore wanted thrown out for being post- marked too late ::) If Gore was prez we'd all be learning to speak Sadaams' language and all the ladies would be wearing covers on thier faces

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Now that's a rather far-fetched variation on the old 'if it wasn`t for us, you`d all be speaking German by now' bit; and it still doesn't seem like much of a threat.  ::)
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Like I said....Gore only wanted re-counts in a couple counties and to quash the overseas military votes.....Just The Facts, Man! :)

Quoting:
...and last time I checked, the popular vote means squat in an election.
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Ouch!
I can't dispute that this is factually correct w.r.t. the US but I dare anyone to label this democracy

Back to topic
I spent the last 10 years in Brighton which is a very cosmopolitan town/city.  Out of my circle of friends, approximately half were White British nationals.  The other half came from a variety of ethnic backgrounds including Palestinian, Nigerian/Dutch, Croatian, Spanish & Irish/Pakistani.
Through these people I encountered many other varied people.
The single most important trend this showed me was that simply
Some people are cool and some are jerks.  This is irrespective of colour, religion, nationality, etc.

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Ouch!
I can't dispute that this is factually correct w.r.t. the US but I dare anyone to label this democracy
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...but it's equally true here - there has been at least one instance that I can remember where the party that formed the government had polled fewer votes than the opposition; and there has not been a time since I've been voting where the government of the day polled more than 50% of the votes cast.

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Ouch!
I can't dispute that this is factually correct w.r.t. the US but I dare anyone to label this democracy
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here we have the "Electoral College", which creates an even playing field for all states, especially the small ones with very small populations.

If it weren't for the Electoral College, the elections would be determined by only a few large states like CA, TX, NY, etc.

And for the record:  if the "popular vote" was the only thing determining our elections, Slick Willy Clinton would never have gotten the job (take that Gore camp :D)  Even in both elections, he never received the popular vote.  (43% in '92, and 48.4% in '96)  ...a "little" detail the Gore crowd selectively "forgets" to remember until this day. ;)



But yes, Back to Topic....This has strayed way off course.

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here we have the "Electoral College", which creates an even playing field for all states, especially the small ones with very small populations.

If it weren't for the Electoral College, the elections would be determined by only a few large states like CA, TX, NY, etc.

And for the record:  if the "popular vote" was the only thing determining our elections, Slick Willy Clinton would never have gotten the job (take that Gore camp :D)  Even in both elections, he never received the popular vote.  (43% in '92, and 48.4% in '96)  ...a "little" detail the Gore crowd selectively "forgets" to remember until this day. ;)



But yes, Back to Topic....This has strayed way off course.


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It was a three way race. Clinton still recieved a majority of the votes. Clinton reiceved the popular vote.

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But if you are still convinved Bush was "selected and not elected", go study USA Today's independent recount that concluded Bush did win.  

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Yeah, that's because of all those "Jew for Buchanan" in Dade county with that screwy butterfly ballot.  Don't know if you noticed, but the exit polls there cause the networks to give Florida to Gore early on, and there were lots of reposts of people who thought they voted for Gore realizing that they had, in fact, voted for Buchanan.  The whole thing was a big farce.  Democrace was ill served, and the election stollen.

Quoting:...and the election stollen.
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...if thats what gets ya through the day, keep on beleiving that.   ;)

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here we have the "Electoral College", which creates an even playing field for all states, especially the small ones with very small populations.

If it weren't for the Electoral College, the elections would be determined by only a few large states like CA, TX, NY, etc.

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Well...if you haven't noticed, those three states, plus Florida  New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, still pritty much decide the contest, electoral college or no.  You should read The Federalist # 10 (I'm sure you wont), it is very instructive in term of what our Founding fathers though about democracy, and the will of the people.

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I had to sit through two long terms of "Slick-Willy" and didn't whine...meanwhile rosie opposes guns yet her body-guards carry them....AND Alec Baldwin is still living in the US after saying he'd leave the country if Bush was President.  Well Alec....we're STILL waiting for you to leave! (and take rosie with ya)
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"Slick Willy" didn't get us into a war, balanced the budget and got us a surplus for the first time in umteeth years, got the stock market bout as high as it has ever been, got unemployment down to as low as it had been in decades, and you hads to "sit through"?  Now all that is gone and your happy?  Are you some kind of terrorist?

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"Slick Willy" didn't get us into a war, balanced the budget and got us a surplus for the first time in umteeth years, got the stock market bout as high as it has ever been, got unemployment down to as low as it had been in decades, and you hads to "sit through"?  Now all that is gone and your happy?  Are you some kind of terrorist?
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Just thought I'd bump this up so that maybe R&Rfan & 80's might do me the kindness of an answer.  ;)

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Hmm, I fully understand the electoral college system but this does seem to be a step back from democracy!End Quote

The United States is a republic, as you well know.  As in, representative democracy.  The way it works is that the people choose some other "qualified" person to represent them so they don't have to care about things that they don't want to care about.  Cynical, yes, but that's how it works.

In an election, the voters vote to tell their electors who they want to elect.  The electors can vote for whoever they want in some states, but in most states they are bound by that state's popular vote.  The electoral process is described in Article II of the US Constitution.

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Surely the leader of a democracy should be chosen by the people, one man one vote so to speak.  A better way IMO of dealing with smaller states would be through local government deciding local issues.  The population of a small state does not gain the right to an unfair share of the country's votes.
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The House of Representatives is set at 435, and each state's representative allotment is determined by the US Census, done every 10 years.  Each state has at least one representative.  The Senate has equal representation from each state.  This system isn't perfect, but it's worked pretty darn well for the past 200+ years.

Now, of course, they CAN change it.  The amendment process is described in Article V. of the US Constitution, linked above.  As you can see, it takes 3/4 of the legislatures in the 50 states (currently) to do this, and being that about half these states are "small" states, it ain't gonna happen.

Funny how some people say this process is unconstitutional when it's been in the Constitution for as long as it's been in effect, and nobody's bothered to change it in all that time.

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I did not whine when Clinton did his two terms...I lived through it.  I became upset when the guy I voted for (Bush) WON the last election and all the liberals started to whine.
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Well, first of all, Clinton won in a landslide election. Second of all, you're saying Newt and his compadres did not whine in the least little bit?

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Technically, using the electoral college, you can win certain states by a 51-49% and win even if you got 0% of the vote elsewhere.

I think it's stupid.
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Really?  I think it's beautiful 8)

This happened most memorably back in the late 19th Century when Harrison beat Cleveland in the electoral vote but lost the popular vote.  Cleveland came back the next election and beat him popular and electoral.  So if the losers had any nuts, they'd come back next time and try to oust Bush instead of kvetching about something that's been in the Constitution forever.

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The problem with the electoral college system is that is disenfranchises people.  If I vote for the guy who gets less votes in my state, the state votes fully for the other guy and my vote is lost.
Surely, the president represents the people, not the states.  I can't see why the votes can't be counted individually.
I appreciate that society is unlikely to achieve a perfect democracy, but the electoral college is an added complication which takes it backwards.
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Valid arguments indeed, but there's a fine balance because of the demographics and population spreads of the states.  So in the end, you can't say that Joseph Powerbroker in New York's vote is more important than Farmer Joe Bob in Nebraska.  The electoral college is a way of balancing the field and keeping everyone honest.  Otherwise, there's even less of a chance that presidential candidates would give a hoot about so-called "small" states like Alaska and Wyoming.

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Really?  I think it's beautiful 8)

This happened most memorably back in the late 19th Century when Harrison beat Cleveland in the electoral vote but lost the popular vote.  Cleveland came back the next election and beat him popular and electoral.  So if the losers had any nuts, they'd come back next time and try to oust Bush instead of kvetching about something that's been in the Constitution forever.
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Actually, it happened in 2000.  Gore won the populare vote but lost the electoral college.

You are right that the House of Rep's is based on population, and so the actual number is not fixed, but is based on population.  There is no set number of Representatives.  States get at least one, like Vermont, and additional one depending on size, elected every two years.  Each state gets 2 Senators regardless of size.  Each state gets the same number of Electors as it has members of Congress (House and Senate).  Electors, according to the Constitution, are ALL free to vote for whoever they please, but since they are trusted party members, if they get elected, they vote for their party's candidate.

When James Madison proposed this formula there were no political parties, and the founders did not envision them.  In fact, Madison equated political parties with "factions" which he believed needed to be controlled.  What Madison (the architect of the Constitution) devised was a system, of indirect representation (until 1913 Senators were "elected" by state legislatures) designed, as he said, to filter the will of the people through a body of wise and virtuous men, who might better discern the best interests of the country.  Or as Hamilton put it, "All societies are divided into the rich and well-born and the mass of the people.  Give to the first class a perminant share of the government".  That's CERTAINLY what we've got.  The "rich and well born" are in firm control.

Like I suggested, read The Federalist # 10

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Valid arguments indeed, but there's a fine balance because of the demographics and population spreads of the states.  So in the end, you can't say that Joseph Powerbroker in New York's vote is more important than Farmer Joe Bob in Nebraska.  The electoral college is a way of balancing the field and keeping everyone honest.  Otherwise, there's even less of a chance that presidential candidates would give a hoot about so-called "small" states like Alaska and Wyoming.
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But it really isn't.  If a candidate is leading in Cal, Texas, Penn, Florida, New York, New Jersey, and Michigan, why campaign in Vermont, with its 3 electoral votes?  The big states still dominate in Pres. elections.  It's only in the Senate that we achieve equality.  So the Electoral Collage is really redundant, most of the time, that is, until a minority candidate wins the election.

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Most of the states sit in the 5-15 electoral vote range.  Win enough of these states and you offset CA, NY and FL.

And that's my point.

Electoral vote distribution

North Dakota's site was the first one I happened across :P
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Yeah, but without the big states you can't win.  Same as with the popular vote.  The Electoral Collage is a throw-back to a less democratic era, and should be abolished.  No more minority Presidents - regardless of party.