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Subject: Webcams in Classrooms?
Theres been a debate for a while as to whether schools should be allowed to place webcams in classrooms so they can "check in" on their kids to see how they are behaving and getting along. Its actually pretty common already with day-care centers and has been for a few years.
The way it works is the parent would have a password and would log in to the webcam page and could see their child. Pretty simple.
The debate, however, is the fear that potential child molesters (aka scum of the earth) would find a way to tap in to the cams, and by seeing possibly who the kids are friends with, what the topic is on the blackboard, what videos were watched, etc etc, they would have a conversation starter with the kids making the kids think they are friends of the family, or something similar.
I think the idea of webcams in the classroom is a great idea, but the risk of it getting into the wrong hands, in my opinion, is a pretty hefty risk.
What do you think?
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I think it is an interesting idea. Parents should know what is being taught in the school. To keep people out who do not belong, I would set up strong security. I would start by encrypting all the video, so if someone steals it, it would be worthless, not even static on a screen, nothing there but mixed bits of unintelligable 0's and 1's (or maybe a trick- something the pedofile thinks is a video, but really something which sends out a IP packet to the police identifying the jerk). I would give out software to the parents which would decrypt the video, and set up a tcp socket system, so there is a direct pc-to-pc connection, and I would log all IP addresses. Or perhaps, have parents call in and tell the school their computers IP address, and then only alow those on the pre-approved list to gain access to the webcam (like a filter which disallows all IP addresses execpt those entered in the system). I would also have a half hour delay of the webcam, so if some information which should not be public is displayed, it can be removed (like blacking out names of students, shots of grades on papers or exams, anything else which should be private or can identify the sudent). Of course, all this would cost $$ of hiring someone to set up the system and maintain it. Not to mention having someone at the school to watch the video for the full schoolday to remove private information.
My main guess is it would cost to much to put in place. To keep the system secure, you would have to hire someone who really knows networks, sockets, TCP, some programming language, and web programming. I think it would probably cost the school to hire that employee over $60,000 a year. And if there is an IT boom, then it could cost the school $100,000 a year to compete with an open market when those programming skills are in demand. If I was administering a school, I think I would spend that money on improving the quality of the education.
There is also the question of privacy. I know kids want it, and schools want more info about the students. When I was in high school, everyone was ticked off at the random locker checks. Nobody liked it. With todays technology, I am suprised they are not taking digital photos of the lockers and emailing the picture to the parents.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I think cameras in classrooms is a terrible idea! There are 39 cameras throughout my school. They're everywhere I look! There are cameras pointing in every direction down every hall! It would make me even more nervous if they were in the classrooms too. I hate the feeling of being watched, it's like a phobia I have of cameras being everywhere.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I am also uncomfortable with the thought of cameras spying down on me in a classroom.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
If I was a kid, I would absolutely hate this idea. Imagine being spied on ALL THE TIME. Talk about an Orwellian nightmare.
Edit: Heh, I see two of our teenagers chimed in before me and confirmed my suspicion that kids would just hate this idea.
Good to know that at age 27 1/2, I'm not yet totally out of touch with how the youth of today would think.
The kids have a right of privacy too, and so do the teachers and other school employees.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
The courts have long held that children and students do not have the same rights that adults have. For example, take the case bellow. For everyone over 18, to have a search would require a warrent or a waiver from the person, and there must be reason to suspect a law was broken. For those under 18 no warrent is needed, they can be searched, and not only for suspicion of breaking laws, but school rules too.
----------------------
New Jersey v. T.L.O., 469 U.S. 325 (1985)
A teacher at a New Jersey high school, upon discovering respondent, then a 14-year-old freshman, and her companion smoking cigarettes in a school lavatory in violation of a school rule, took them to the Principal's office, where they met with the Assistant Vice Principal. When respondent, in response to the Assistant Vice Principal's questioning, denied that she had been smoking and claimed that she did not smoke at all, the Assistant Vice Principal demanded to see her purse. Upon opening the purse, he found a pack of cigarettes and also noticed a package of cigarette rolling papers that are commonly associated with the use of marihuana. He then proceeded to search the purse thoroughly and found some marihuana, a pipe, plastic bags, a fairly substantial amount of money, an index card containing a list of students who owed respondent money, and two letters that implicated her in marihuana dealing. Thereafter, the State brought delinquency charges against respondent in the Juvenile Court, which, after denying respondent's motion to suppress the evidence found in her purse, held that the Fourth Amendment applied to searches by school officials, but that the search in question was a reasonable one, and adjudged respondent to be a delinquent. The Appellate Division of the New Jersey Superior Court affirmed the trial court's finding that there had been no Fourth Amendment violation, but vacated the adjudication of delinquency and remanded on other grounds. The New Jersey Supreme Court reversed and ordered the suppression of the evidence found in respondent's purse, holding that the search of the purse was unreasonable.
We join the majority of courts that have examined this issue in concluding that the accommodation of the privacy interests of schoolchildren with the substantial need of teachers and administrators for freedom to maintain order in the schools does not require strict adherence to the requirement that searches be based on probable cause to believe that the subject of the search has violated or is violating the law. Rather, the legality of a search of a student should depend simply on the reasonableness, under all the circumstances, of the search. Determining the reasonableness of any search involves a twofold inquiry: first, one must consider "whether the . . . action was justified at its inception," Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. at 20 ; second, one must determine whether the search as actually conducted "was reasonably related in scope to the circumstances which justified the interference in the first place," ibid. Under ordinary circumstances, a search of a student by a teacher or other school official will be (p*342) "justified at its inception" when there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the search will turn up evidence that the student has violated or is violating either the law or the rules of the school. Such a search will be permissible in its scope when the measures adopted are reasonably related to the objectives of the search and not excessively intrusive in light of the age and sex of the student and the nature of the infraction.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
^Good reply. But there's a huge difference in searching either a kid or an over 18 adult on a suspicion of crime, (like posseion of marijuana or cigarrettes) whether it be a strict intrepratation of the law or a simply a reasonable justification for a search.......
and just planting a camera in a classroom and watching these kids all the freakin' time. Man that is just way too much and going way too far.
And a determined pervert will find a way to access those cameras so he can stare at those kids and do whatever with himself.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Big Brother is watching.
At first when I read this thread, I was thinking that it was a good idea that the PARENTS should know what the kid is doing. However, it will NOT just be the parents. Who else is going to see that? So I really don't think it is a good idea.
A few years ago, I created a film about the orginization that I volunteer for. One of our programs is a summer programs for kids. I had to ensure that there were permission slips from the parents to be sure that it was ok to video tape them. However, there was one woman (who was a bit nutso anyway) who did not sign her kids up for the program but sent them to it anyway. I showed up with "camera crew" (DC ;)) and started filming. A few days later, I found out that she called the office and was having a fit. She was going on about "What if some molester saw that film of my kids and go after them?" (We didn't use the kids names or anything and they would have been just one (or two) in the bunch) What we ended up doing was sitting through my raw footage with her and we just erased everything that showed her kids. I was a bit pissed but at least I did have enough raw footage that I could create my film from it.
Another incedent many, many moons ago while I was in the service. Anyone who has been in the service knows about pee test-and there is someone standing there watching you to make sure that it is your pee. (I know, I know). Well, at one time I worked in the suggestions office. Someone sent in the suggestion to video tape people peeing rather than having someone standing there. We all had a good laugh over that one but it was kind of frieghtning. Who else is watching me pee? I would rather have just that one person there who I can see rather than have it on a video tape where who knows can see it.
Like I said, Big Brother is watching.
Cat
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
Imagine being spied on ALL THE TIME. Talk about an Orwellian nightmare. End Quote
Isn't that the way it basically is already though?
I mean think about it, every time you go to: the ATM, the bank, or the gas station you are on camera. Every time you drive on interstates and drive through most medium/large cities you are probably on camera. Everytime you walk/drive through the parking lots of most chain stores and walk into/throughout most stores you are on camera. Every step you take in airports, sports stadiums, etc is on camera. And so on...
Thats just a short list, bottom line: you are already on camera all the time, whether you realise it or not.
And if you think Big Brother is bad in America, check out England's "security" camera system. It makes ours look small!
Quoting:The kids have a right of privacy too, and so do the teachers and other school employees.
End Quote
Thats true that the students have a right to their privacy, but as far as the teachers go: they were the ones who wanted the webcams so the parents could see when their child was acting up.
I don't know, after reading all the responses I am still torn. I just don't think the risk of the wrong people getting it is worth it. So I say: unless they can fool-proof it to where theres no way the wrong people can tap into it, I say no webcams for that reason, and that reason alone.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
I don't know, after reading all the responses I am still torn. I just don't think the risk of the wrong people getting it is worth it. So I say: unless they can fool-proof it to where theres no way the wrong people can tap into it, I say no webcams for that reason, and that reason alone.
End Quote
There are ways to make a network which would not allow unauthorized people to view the webcam. You would have to have the parents install software on their PC's which would create a direct pc(parent) to pc(school) link. There would have to be a way to authenticate the pc(parent) so it is not an imposter. I would probably set it up to check an IP address (fairly basic, easy to hack), some algorithm which only the parents PC could have (like something that takes hardware specs and produces a unique ID, more difficult to hack), perhaps some added password changed weekly that a parent could only get by calling into the school (perhaps even only from a home phone, so the caller-id at the school could verify it is a parent), and an encryption system which would only alow the parent's pc to decode the webcam video (hardest to hack). I think if a school had a very good network engineer, they could have a bulletproof network which would be next to impossible to hack into. Plus, a smart network programmer would leave "honey pots", which is slang for unprotected computers with sophisticated tracking devices used to gather data about the hacker.
All in all, it is possible to create a very secure webcam network. The downside is the cost of the engineer and having parents understand how to install the software on their end of the network.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I still don't understand why it is necessary to use a camera in the classroom though. At our school system, we do something I'm sure a lot of you have heard of: "Parent-Teacher Conferences". This is where the parent and teacher get together and talk about how their child is behaving and how their child is progressing in school. Also, teachers send report cards home and can communicate with parents over the phone if there are problems, so I don't see why a video camera is necessary.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I think this is completely unnecessary. We must be able to trust that our schools are trying to do the right thing. We can't spy on our kids all day. Certain groups here in Oz are calling for a ban on cell phones with built-in cameras being used in areas such as public swimming pools and near schools so that perverts can't secretly take photos of kids. We should not be spying on our kids in school. It's that simple.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Someday, we will invent floating tracking webcams that will just float around and follow your kids wherever they go, and whenever you want to find out what they're doing, you can look it up on the webcam. That way, you can always make sure they're safe.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
I still don't understand why it is necessary to use a camera in the classroom though. At our school system, we do something I'm sure a lot of you have heard of: "Parent-Teacher Conferences". This is where the parent and teacher get together and talk about how their child is behaving and how their child is progressing in school. Also, teachers send report cards home and can communicate with parents over the phone if there are problems, so I don't see why a video camera is necessary.
End Quote
I guess there can be extremems on both sides. From the parents that skip the parent-teacher conferences, to the parents who want to know everything that is happening with their child (the moms which call other moms if there child has an argument with a classmate). The school should do everything it can to inform parents about curriculum, grades, problems students have. Too many schools do not tell the parents anything until the report card comes and Jimmy has D's and F's. My middle and high school had a mid-quarter warning, but only sent it out to students who had lower than D's. Even then, if your parents worked late, it was not that hard to beat them to the mail.
Schools do not have enough money as it is. I would probably take the money which would be used to pay for the webcams and the network engineer, and use it as bonuses to reward good teachers. Perhaps it would even be easier to just send out a newsletter to the parents, informing them of what is happening in the classroom? Or a website which lists grades? Some college classes I have taken have publicly posted the last 4 digets of your social security number followed by all grades for a class. I wonder if that would be a way to get information to the parents while protecting privacy?
I dunno. The more I think about it, the more I think perhaps a webcam is too intrusive and unhealthy for normal development. Kids need some freedom to develop.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I think webcams should belong in the men's and women's bathrooms.That way,teachers can find out if the kids are skipping class.
Howard
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
^eew, that's nasty dude.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
As Cat put it, "Big Brother is watching you". I think this absolutely SUCKS.
There was a case here not long ago of a cop who heard that a local H.S. teacher was saying things in class with which he disagreed. He got the janitor to let him in one night, and photographed student work on bulletin boards that he found offensive, or "politically incorrect" (which is to say he disagreed with). He was reprimanded, as he richly deserved, and issued an appology. He should have be arrested for trespass.
As far as I'm concerned, the classroom is a sacred place, where teachers and students need to be free to interact, share ideas and interpretations, free from the prying eyes of outsiders. On the other hand, I have invited the President of my college to visit my classroom any time he likes (just let me know, so that I can fill him in on what's going on). I'm not opposed to being observed, and personally would not change a thing evan if Big Brother were watching, but I would definately resent this kind of intrusion. If parants want to know how their kids (in elem, and H.S.) are doing, they should call the teachers. Acctuall, because of the "Buckley Amendment" to some law or other, I can't even respond to their questions if they do call me (since they are over 18).
Spying on ourselves it not an answer to ANY problem, and, IMHO, all of it should be dropped.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
I think webcams should belong in the men's and women's bathrooms.That way,teachers can find out if the kids are skipping class.
Howard
End Quote
Teachers can also find out if kids are skipping class by taking roll call down the list of student's names at the beginning of the period. Are the teachers going to stop every 10 minutes in the middle of their lesson and check the cameras to the bathroom?
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
I think webcams should belong in the men's and women's bathrooms.That way,teachers can find out if the kids are skipping class.
Howard
End Quote
YIKES!
now THAt would create a whole new set of problems of huge proportions. I'm going to assume you were joking.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
Teachers can also find out if kids are skipping class by taking roll call down the list of student's names at the beginning of the period. Are the teachers going to stop every 10 minutes in the middle of their lesson and check the cameras to the bathroom?
End Quote
This is something else I hated about highschool. We would have 45 minuites per class (or some very small amount of time). The teacher would spend the first 2 or 3 minuites telling everyone to shut-up, then another 4 or 5 minuites taking roll call. By the time the teacher was done with administrative tasks, there would be a half an hour left. In some classes, it did not matter. But in classes like math where people learn by watching examples, those 7 or 8 minuites could have been used to show another 4 or 5 examples. Perhaps a webcam could be used to take attendance *after* school, rather than wasting the students time. What is a teacher going to do anyways if a student is not there, does it really matter if they take attendance 6 hours later?
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
I was just trying to prove a point to Howard that bathroom cameras are not necessary at all. Plus, I thought that was kinda sick. :-/
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Howard's post is absolutely brilliant.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
YIKES!
now THAt would create a whole new set of problems of huge proportions. I'm going to assume you were joking.
End Quote
Yeah.I was.sort of like an invasion of privacy. ;D
Howard
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Some of you think it would be a good idea if only the parents could see it, but what if the parents are child molesters? Not to their own kid, but what if they want to molest a kid that's in their kid's class? Hmm...can't trust the parents either...
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
Some of you think it would be a good idea if only the parents could see it, but what if the parents are child molesters? Not to their own kid, but what if they want to molest a kid that's in their kid's class? Hmm...can't trust the parents either...
End Quote
while I suppose it is possible, I think your example is taking hypothetical "what if's" to the extreme.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Yeah, it was taking hypothetical what-if's to the extreme, but it would suck to have cameras in class, we couldn't get away with anything. :)
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
if webcams were put in my school so that the parents could watch their children, it'd most likely be a waste of money. aside from privacy issues, i don't think that most parents (in my area, anyway) would take time from work (assuming they worked outside the home) to watch their children be bored in a classroom. not to mention that i think it would be a big distraction...many people would focus on the cameras rather than the lessons.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
Some of you think it would be a good idea if only the parents could see it, but what if the parents are child molesters? Not to their own kid, but what if they want to molest a kid that's in their kid's class? Hmm...can't trust the parents either...
End Quote
That thought did cross my mind, too. That was part of the reason why I finally decided that it was no a good idea. If I had a kid in a classroom that was being filmed/taped (whatever you want to call it) I wouldn't want to have Jane's parents or Andrew's parents watching my kid-not just because they may or may not be child molesters, but do I know these people? Do I trust them? I'm sure there would probably be parents of some of the other kids that I would trust but I wouldn't know all who were watching my kid.
Cat
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
if webcams were put in my school so that the parents could watch their children, it'd most likely be a waste of money. aside from privacy issues, i don't think that most parents (in my area, anyway) would take time from work (assuming they worked outside the home) to watch their children be bored in a classroom. not to mention that i think it would be a big distraction...many people would focus on the cameras rather than the lessons.
End Quote
I agree with most of this, all but the "bored in the classroom" part. As a college teacher, I have not been trained as a stand-up comic, and my job is not to entertain. I don't really blame kids, and I freely admit that some teachers might be boring (like in Freeis Beular's Day Off). PART of the problem, I think, is that students (college ones too) want to be entertained, want to be spectators. "Getting" an education is not passively sitting in a classroom while someone fills your head. Getting an education is an ACTIVE PROCESS through which YOU confront ideas. You get your own education. I kinow this is a tangent, sorry.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
I agree with most of this, all but the "bored in the classroom" part. As a college teacher, I have not been trained as a stand-up comic, and my job is not to entertain. I don't really blame kids, and I freely admit that some teachers might be boring (like in Freeis Beular's Day Off). PART of the problem, I think, is that students (college ones too) want to be entertained, want to be spectators. "Getting" an education is not passively sitting in a classroom while someone fills your head. Getting an education is an ACTIVE PROCESS through which YOU confront ideas. You get your own education. I kinow this is a tangent, sorry.
End Quote
i'm sorry if i offended you. what i meant was that in (my) high school, a lot of people don't seem to care about education, so they don't pay much attention during class.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
80sRocked, you sound like one of those clueless adults in those 80's John Hughes movies. You know, Principal John Vernon, Principal Ed Rooney.....those guys who constantly over monitored the kids. Ferris Bueller would be so ashamed of you for wanting to put cameras in classrooms.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
80sRocked, you sound like one of those clueless adults in those 80's John Hughes movies. You know, Principal John Vernon, Principal Ed Rooney.....those guys who constantly over monitored the kids. Ferris Bueller would be so ashamed of you for wanting to put cameras in classrooms.
End Quote
Well Jason, if you would have bothered to read the whole thread before insulting me, you would have seen that while I think webcams potentially have a positve aspect, I also recognize the danger they pose, and therefore would not impose them to be put in classrooms, simply in the name of safety.
Here's my verdict, as posted days ago, and obviously overlooked by you Jason:
Quoting: So I say: unless they can fool-proof it to where theres no way the wrong people can tap into it, I say no webcams for that reason, and that reason alone.End Quote
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
80sRocked, you sound like one of those clueless adults in those 80's John Hughes movies. You know, Principal John Vernon, Principal Ed Rooney.....those guys who constantly over monitored the kids. Ferris Bueller would be so ashamed of you for wanting to put cameras in classrooms.
End Quote
And I bet they were all republicans too. ;D ;D ;)
Just kidding. But they were hallarious! ;D
I think 80sRocked had some good points. A parent should be informed of what happens in a classroom, and not just in a general "we will teach them the abc's", but in a more proactive daily knowledge of what thier kids are being exposed to. Think of it from another perspective. Every school had its class clown and troublemaker. Wouldn't it be a little embarrasing for the parent to watch their kid continually get in trouble, and have everyone else in the neighborhood know it.
Also, if they had webcams, I think kids would be less likely to do illegal things in the school, like sell drugs. Many schools have a drug problem. I remember my high school, which looked ... hmm... white, had a huge heroin problem.
My main concern with the camera's are we have to teach kids how to be responsible, and not just because "someone is watching". Will they just learn to do unacceptable things in the shadows?
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Cameras in classrooms wouldn't stop people from selling drugs, they would just do it somewhere else where there aren't cameras.
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
i'm sorry if i offended you. what i meant was that in (my) high school, a lot of people don't seem to care about education, so they don't pay much attention during class.
End Quote
Don't apologize, Oldsocks, you didn't offend me at all, and I know exactly what you mean. My point is that, as a student, YOU need to take control of your education. Ever teacher you have may have something worthwhile to guide you to, even if they speak in a nonotone, and have no jokes to tell (I try to bring humor to my classes, but I don't know enough jokes for one every day - although I do sometimes use the material - but again, I'm not a stand up comic). As you take courses, try to think about what you can learn that will forward you ambitions, what you can make work for you. It is, after all, your education. Particiape, control the agenda to the extent that you can, and try to cut your teachers a bit of slack. They (most of them) really do care about you and your peers and want you all to do well, and not only in their classes. Educators are your friends, not your enemies, and want you to succeed.
Just some "(grand) fatherly" advice. And certainly no offense intended. You will be starting school again soon. why not commit yourself to doing the best you can possibly do? Aim for straight "A"s, and please let me know how it goes - and don't hesitate to PM me for any help I can give you. And this applies to all you "young pups" who read this. Just don't ask me about math - I suck at math :'(
Subject: Re: Webcams in Classrooms?
Quoting:
A parent should be informed of what happens in a classroom, and not just in a general "we will teach them the abc's", but in a more proactive daily knowledge of what thier kids are being exposed to. Think of it from another perspective. Every school had its class clown and troublemaker. Wouldn't it be a little embarrasing for the parent to watch their kid continually get in trouble, and have everyone else in the neighborhood know it.
Also, if they had webcams, I think kids would be less likely to do illegal things in the school, like sell drugs. Many schools have a drug problem. I remember my high school, which looked ... hmm... white, had a huge heroin problem.
My main concern with the camera's are we have to teach kids how to be responsible, and not just because "someone is watching". Will they just learn to do unacceptable things in the shadows?
End Quote
Come on John. At the public school level parants CANM be informed, and even, to some extent, at the college level, although the Buckley Amendment prevents me from directly discussing a student, even with a parant, without the student's permission - in writing. At mid point in 7th grade I changed schools, abnd was a bit ahead of the class I joined, so, like the wise-a$$ kid I was, I showed off, and acted the big shoot (trying to impress the girls - three in particular). Mrs Nicoletti called my father at home, and told him that I was acting up and being disruptive. Dad told her (I heard him because he called me to the phone) that he supported her efforts to do what was best for the class, and if that ment "leaning on him" that was fine with him. "give him extra homework, make him stand in the corner, put him on detention, just don't use corporal punishment, and I will support you 100%". Mr Nicolleti thanked him, and said that she wished other parents were as supportive. He than turned to me and said that I had better "cut the crap" and straighten up and fly right". Dad never hit me, but he didn't need to. I wanted his respect and approval and I think he knew it. Mrs Nicolleti had no more problems with me, and mom and dad continued to pay close attention to my homework
Hope you get the point. Webcams are not going to get parants more involved in their kids, they are just going to invade the sanctity of the classroom.