Quoting:Let them come to understand the harsh realities of capitalism.  End Quote

ppuuuhhhllleeeaaassseee. ::)


You enjoy sailing right?  Keep in mind your boat, among basically every other item you use and enjoy on a daily basis, is a product of "the harsh realities of capitalism" my friend. ;)


Call yourself what ever you want, a "revolutionary", a "socialist", etc etc.  But fact is, you are just another Capitalist Pig like the rest of us. :)

Quoting:


ppuuuhhhllleeeaaassseee. ::)


You enjoy sailing right?  Keep in mind your boat, among basically every other item you use and enjoy on a daily basis, is a product of "the harsh realities of capitalism" my friend. ;)


Call yourself what ever you want, a "revolutionary", a "socialist", etc etc.  But fact is, you are just another Capitalist Pig like the rest of us. :)




End Quote

I beg to differ.  I am not a "capitalist pig".  The fact that I have more than many people actually distrurbs me.  I believe that the life style I enjoy, which affords me the luxury (in the capitalist society) to be a scholar, a sailor, and a fisherman should be available to all of us.  I admit that I am privileged as a result of my education, no question.  But why should not ANYONE who wants to learn to sail, and have access to a boat, have that opportunity?  Maybe you would like to learn to sail (I can teach a man to sail, but I can't teach him WHY).  

Don't try to "guilt" me with the fact that I have achieved a life style that is realatively pleasant.  The fact is, that if some didn't have one that is extravagant, the rest of us could enjoy what I have.

And if you think that I don't put these ideas into operation, you are wrong.  In my little town there are lots of hungry people.  I participate with others to elieviate their need by helping the local food shelf.  What do you do to elieviate suffering in your community?

Quoting:The fact that I have more than many people actually distrurbs me.  End Quote

A privelaged Capitalist saying he is disturbed by his own priveliges. ::)

2 words come to mind:  Limousine Liberal.  (thanks to whoever posted that phrase a while back on here)

Quoting:Don't try to "guilt" me with the fact that I have achieved a life style that is realatively pleasant.  The fact is, that if some didn't have one that is extravagant, the rest of us could enjoy what I have.End Quote

The only people guilt-tripping are the ones who condemn others for relishing in Capitalism, while they themselves are doing very, very well because of capitalism.  Seems hypocritical to me.  

However what I can't past is that you are constantly condemning the Economic System that has given you everything and one that you continue to enjoy living under.  

Its like you are "Biting the hand that feeds you after asking for 2nds".



If we should automatically feel guilty for being privelaged, then what's the motivation to succeed?

Quoting:


(1)A privelaged Capitalist saying he is disturbed by his own priveliges. ::)

(2)2 words come to mind:  Limousine Liberal.  (thanks to whoever posted that phrase a while back on here)




(3)The only people guilt-tripping are the ones who condemn others for relishing in Capitalism, while they themselves are doing very, very well because of capitalism.  Seems hypocritical to me.  

(4)However what I can't past is that you are constantly condemning the Economic System that has given you everything and one that you continue to enjoy living under.  

(5)Its like you are "Biting the hand that feeds you after asking for 2nds".



If we should automatically feel guilty for being privelaged, then what's the motivation to succeed?

End Quote

(1) I really should not post now because your ignorance of the meaning of words is really troublesome.  I am NOT a capitalist.  I don't own any "means of production", and I don't employ anyone.  I live in a capitalist society, and so live by its rules.  Sure, I take advantage to them for my benefit, but I don't make them.  I also play poker, and if I win, I take the money (pennies).  And I'm not "disturbed" by my well being.  I just think everyone should be in about the same boat (or RV, or whatever).

(2) This is just an insult.  Both terms are simply wrong.  If "limousine" refers to being well off, well, my income is adaquate to a decent life style - got objections to that? - but I'm certainly not rich, so no limousines in my future, and I wouldn't want one, not even for the wedding.

As to "liberal", Peeelease.  Just like, as the joke goes, Episcoalians are Catholic lite, Liberals are conservative lite,  You both buy into the same paradigm, and fight over "how much".  I reject that paradigm completely and propose another one.

(3) As a matter of fact, I really don't feel guilty about what I have or have achieved.  But in any case, this is just personal, and of no relevance to a political discussion.  And I must say that I resent being called a hypocrite.

(4) Given me everything?  It gave me (and my kids) massive debts, no gauranteed health care, an electoral system when the minority candidate wins, an adminitration that lies without shame, and sends our kids to die over that lie.  Frankly, I'd rather have less, with everything better distributed, and have more democracy.

(5) I think its more like Little Georgie's friends, like Ken Lay and Mr Skikking and the lot that are asking for "seconds", and thirds.  How does Haliburton get a free ride on "rebuilding" Iraq, for example?  Maybe when the hand feeds us "regular folks", like controlling perscription meds prices, and funding Federal education mandates, etc. I'll thinkl about being appreciative of the "hand that feeds me"  so far I've (and you too) have had to eat "excrament".

As I asked above, what have you done to give back to your community?  Last week I spent about 8 hours driving to and working in the Vermont Food Bank, along with 10 other volunteers, which gained our local food shelf over 2,000 pounds of food to distribuite to needy families.  My question to you is, in the richest, most powerful nation in the world, WHY] should this be necessary?

Quoting:
As to "liberal", Peeelease.  Just like, as the joke goes, Episcoalians are Catholic lite, Liberals are conservative lite,  You both buy into the same paradigm, and fight over "how much".  I reject that paradigm completely and propose another one.

End Quote

I think that liberals are not conservative lite's. If you are making the assumption that both conservatives and liberals are only interested in how much it takes to pacify the american populace, I would question that. I am sure you could pick a few democrats who may not be prime examples of altruistic people, but they are not the rule (at least I hope not). Many conservatives could care less about how well the masses live; and liberals are interested in many of the same ideals you have written about. If democrats were in control, I think you would see many more social programs, not to pacify but because of genuine care and concern. Anyways, I am not sure where you were going with your statement so I will wait for your response.

Quoting:Last week I spent about 8 hours driving to and working in the Vermont Food Bank, along with 10 other volunteers, which gained our local food shelf over 2,000 pounds of food to distribuite to needy families.  My question to you is, in the richest, most powerful nation in the world, WHY should this be necessary?End Quote

I read this thread and out of everything I read, this last question above grabbed my attention the most. Why, indeed.

Quoting:
Where I come from thats called a "hypocrite".

Sorry to be so blunt, but it needed to be said.
End Quote

Rubbish.  What you're saying is that anyone who disagrees with the current system should either emigrate or be considered a hypocrite.  You really need to widen your horizons a bit...

From where I'm looking, DC comes across as someone with a conscience, not the sort of "I'm all right, Jack/Bleeding heart liberal" hypocrite you're trying to make him out to be.

Phil

PS

Quoting:
If the truck had wings, we could call it "Chitty, Chitty, Bang, Bang."  ;)
End Quote

...when I made the "Chitty chitty bang bang" comment to my wife when this came on the news, she came straight back with "in that case, why doesn't it fly?" :-)

Quoting:


I think that liberals are not conservative lite's. If you are making the assumption that both conservatives and liberals are only interested in how much it takes to pacify the american populace, I would question that. I am sure you could pick a few democrats who may not be prime examples of altruistic people, but they are not the rule (at least I hope not). Many conservatives could care less about how well the masses live; and liberals are interested in many of the same ideals you have written about. If democrats were in control, I think you would see many more social programs, not to pacify but because of genuine care and concern. Anyways, I am not sure where you were going with your statement so I will wait for your response.
End Quote

Both "liberal" and "conservative" (philosophers) begin with the same premis, that people pursuing there own interests contriubute to society, and that capitalism is the economic manifestation of democracy.  The diffenece between them is how much the government should intervene to protect the "common good" from the excesses of individual interests.

I believe that both these assumptions are wrong.

Individuals MAY contribute to the common good in the pursuit of thier own interests, or they may not - Enron comes immediately to mind.

And, taking an historical perspective, I believe that what we CALL democracy is the political manifestation of capitalism.  If you study European history you will see that capitalism emerged BEFORE democracy, and if you think about the power of money in politics, I think you will come  to the conclusion that what we call "democracy" is the dictatorship ofthe bourgseiosie (here Halibuton comes to mind as the most egrigious example).

I don't disagree that many "liberals" are well meaning and, to some extent altruistic, but they are interested in band aids while I am interested in major surgury.  Band aids will not solve homelessness, or hunger, or lack of medical care.  These problems are systemic, and need to be solved with systemic solutions.  In math "radical" refers to root cause.  So too in politics.  So I would say that while you are right that many people who call themselves liberal agree with my values, most would reject my analysis of the causes of the issues on which we agree.  That is why I can't count myself as a liberal, even though I would prefer a good liberal to a conservative any day of the week.  The lesser of the two evils.  Hope this makes sense.  If not, just ask and I will expand.

Quoting:


I read this thread and out of everything I read, this last question above grabbed my attention the most. Why, indeed.


End Quote

I'm not surprised.  I always thought that you were a good, compassionate person.

I can't tell you the unemployment rate in our town, but there are lots of people who depend on our food shelf in a town of just over 2000 people.  In the last quarter, 160 different people needed food from the food shelf.  THe community organization of which the food shelf is a part has other programs, like summer nutrition for kids who get free or subsidized lunches at school, and for seniors on fixed incomes.  We also have a fall "clothing exchange" where folks get rid of their unwanted clothes and replace them with other peoples' unwanted clothes.  There are also massive food distributions, and emergency assistance with various bills, like heat (a biggie in New England) and electricity.  

Why SHOULD this be necessary in the richest country in the world?  Why should this be when some fat cats can light their (Cuban) cigars with hundred $$$ bills?

Quoting:
Modified:

just to make sure there are no hard feelings, I have taken the liberty of deleting my original post and replacing it with this.

I have a lot to say on the topic, but the thread seems to be getting personal.  So in an effort to not gain some more enemies, I'm out. :)




End Quote

Please don't leave, just refrain from personnal attacks and name calling.  I freely admit, as I have already done, that my education and employment allow me to live better than many other people, and I don't feel guilty about it.  I do wish that everyone could enjoy the life style I have.

Lately, most of your posts HAVE avoided the personnal and have focused on your ideas, your critiques of the IDEAS of others, and on facts.  That should always be our focus, and I welcome the opportunity to debate you on that level.  I often (though not always) disagree with you, but want to encourage discuission, not stifle it.

Quoting:Please don't leave...End Quote

oh I'm not leaving the boards, I just meant I am not continuing on this particular thread becuase it has potential for getting nasty and personal, given the topic.

Quoting:


oh I'm not leaving the boards, I just meant I am not continuing on this particular thread becuase it has potential for getting nasty and personal, given the topic.
End Quote

Too bad.  It can only get nasty and personal if we let it.  I will try my best not to let it desintegrate to that level, and I teust that you wil too.

Quoting:
Yeah, as long as there are no personal attacks - Go for it!
End Quote

The way I see it, its differences of opinion that make life interesting.  If we all conformed to the same beliefs and values, what a bore life would be, and there would be no progress.  So I say, bring on those different interpretation.  Bring on those debates.  And I agree - no personal attacks.  Lets go for it!