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Subject: UPDATE-School yard teasing
This is from an article in todays Seattle PI paper. I'm interested what others think.
School ignored teasing of child, parents say
A Federal Way lawsuit is testing how far educators should go in protecting a disabled student from bullying
By KATHY GEORGE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
Day after day during M.L.'s first week of kindergarten, other children called him stupid and crazy and made fun of him when he tried to talk, court records say.
One week was enough.
The boy's parents pulled him out of the school and sued the Federal Way School District, alleging that the staff failed to protect the severely disabled 6-year-old from relentless teasing.
But did the school have a duty to protect him?
The lawsuit, which identifies the boy and his parents only by their initials, is the first in the country to raise that question, attorneys on both sides of the case agree.
"I'm not aware of any case that has found a school district responsible for teasing of a disabled student by another student," said Christopher Hirst, a lawyer representing the Federal Way School District.
And while a new state law requires Washington public schools to adopt policies against bullying of all students, not just disabled ones, advocates say it's too early to judge the law's effectiveness.
"The bullying law hasn't solved the problem," said Jean Carpenter, director of the Washington State Parent-Teacher Association, which is surveying school districts in an attempt to measure the law's effect.
The boy in the Federal Way case, M.L., is so severely mentally retarded and autistic that when he tries to talk, he sometimes makes "a harpy kind of scream" sound instead, court records say. He ranks in the bottom 1 percent of his age group in cognitive ability.
On his very first day on the kindergarten playground in September 2000, two other little boys mimicked his sounds and said things like "he's stupid, he's crazy, stay away from that kid," his mother testified.
She said she reported the teasing to her son's teacher, who vowed to watch for any more teasing and to enforce the school's policy against it; but the problem continued.
Now the boy's parents are asking the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals to establish that, when a school ignores harassment of a disabled child, it violates the federal law designed to guarantee disabled children an appropriate public education.
"If continued, uncorrected teasing of a particularly vulnerable child makes conditions so intolerable, and so potentially dangerous, that the child has to be withdrawn from school altogether, then the child is totally denied any public education," Jim Lobsenz, the attorney handling the parents' appeal, wrote in a court brief.
In its own brief, the school district said the teasing of M.L. couldn't have been very persistent because the school staff never saw it.
The district also questioned the mother's credibility, pointing to evidence that she was at home sending faxes during a school meeting that she claimed she could not attend.
And the district said the parents, in pulling the boy out of school after just one week, "failed to give the district any reasonable opportunity to correct the alleged teasing."
Lobsenz responded in court papers: "Should they have waited to see if the teasing led to an assault some day? And if they had waited for such an incident, how would they know when that day arrived if M.L. couldn't report it?"
As it is, disabled children have the right under federal law to receive an "appropriate" education tailored to their individual needs. But parents and schools often disagree as to what that means.
In M.L.'s case, the question is whether an appropriate education includes protection from teasing. The answer could affect public schools throughout the 9th Circuit, encompassing Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, California, Arizona, Alaska and Hawaii.
"What makes it difficult is that schools can't control the behavior of all students," said Sheryl Harmer, program development director of the Committee for Children, which has teamed up with five Seattle-area schools to support and monitor bullying prevention.
Bullying is generally done outside the presence of supervising adults, she said, adding: "Schools need help. It's not just on the schools' shoulders to solve this thing. There has to be a culture shift."
Tim Hornbecker, president of the Arc of Washington State, an advocacy group for people with developmental disabilities, said it's a civil rights issue.
Disabled children "do have a right to be in school and to be part of their community," and teasing by other children is a form of exclusion, he said.
Under Washington's new anti-bullying law, each school district has until Aug. 1 to adopt a policy forbidding the "harassment, intimidation or bullying of any student" and to share the policy with parents, students, volunteers and employees. The details, including how to respond to bullying, are left to districts.
In Federal Way, having a policy against teasing wasn't enough, argued M.L.'s parents, who wanted staff members to watch more closely and intervene.
"It concerns me because ... he can't defend himself," the mother testified. "If he were injured by another student, he couldn't tell anybody."
The 9th Circuit is scheduled to hear arguments in two weeks
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Usually special needs children have special needs classes. If he was in a regular class, I blame the mother for that.
Young kids are naturally pretty brutal to people who are different. I don't know what the school could have done other than move him to a class that was more suited to his needs.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
I remember kids like him when I was growing up. As far as I remember, people never went after the retarded or disabled kids. That was lower then low to do that, and a bully who picked on a retarded kid invited himself to all sorts of humiliation and danger. Yes even in elementary school. Though I understand that these kids are really young, say 6 years of age?
When I was growing up in the 80's, I don't think I ever remember seeing or hearing about a retarded kid being openly picked on, so I'm kinda shocked to read about this. Kids are definately immature and cruel, that's why they're kids. But I don't think most kids over the age of 7 or 8 would ever dare to openly pick on a retarded or disabled kid.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
Usually special needs children have special needs classes. If he was in a regular class, I blame the mother for that.End Quote
I suggest we don't jump to conclusions. We don't know all of the details.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I remember kids like him when I was growing up. As far as I remember, people never went after the retarded or disabled kids. That was lower then low to do that, and a bully who picked on a retarded kid invited himself to all sorts of humiliation and danger. Yes even in elementary school. Though I understand that these kids are really young, say 6 years of age?
When I was growing up in the 80's, I don't think I ever remember seeing or hearing about a retarded kid being openly picked on, so I'm kinda shocked to read about this. Kids are definately immature and cruel, that's why they're kids. But I don't think most kids over the age of 7 or 8 would ever dare to openly pick on a retarded or disabled kid.End Quote
If young children are doing this sort of ugly thing, they must have a poor example in the parenting department. :-/
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I suggest we don't jump to conclusions. We don't know all of the details.
End Quote
I said "if".
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
In my state there is a law which says that if a minor does damage, then the parents are responsible for paying. For example, if a kid throws a baseball through a window, the parents have to pay. The parents should be fined. The only question here is how much "damage" was caused? As for the school, if the parents of the harrassed kid can prove the teachers knew or should have know the kid was being harrassed, then I would nail the school too. And I would not just limit this to kids who are in "special" classes to protection. I think all kids should have the absolute right to get a good education free of harrasment. I remember my days in elementary school, and there was always someone who was picked on without mercy. I thought those days were over. And not the kind of teasing by being picked last in kickball, but the kind where this one kid who was in esl and speech was just tourmented non-stop. I do not think adults could come up with some of the original cruelty these kids did.
Start Rant....
I think these kinds of events, if they are not stopped, will cause events like Columbine again. These kids take the teasing, and then one day they show up with guns, rifles, and 5000 rounds of ammo. If I was a parent of a kid, I would tell them to treat everyone nice. Even in the Columbine incident, the killers pointed the guns at people and recognized or remembered an act of kindness and just walked by that person. I wonder where it is that kids learn at an early age to pick on one another so harshly.
... End Rant
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Kids suck. What are ya gonna do?
Chris Rock was teased and called horrible names growing up. He said kids were the meanest, most horrible, bigoted, hateful beings on the planet. You wanna know who killed Kennedy? Ask a kid.
Rock was right.
As someone who was tormented endlessly by his peers, or rather, the scum I went to high school with, I can relate to this kid's problem in a way.
I was teased because I was a weak. A sissy, too afraid to stand up for myself. Oh well, live and learn. Some guys in math class once were spitting on the back of my jacket, these long spitty streams, I kinda knew what they were doing, but I was too fearful to turn around.
Some guy stood there watching and said with a smirk to me, "It's rainin'."
I was afraid of everything, men, women, children, you name it. I was so filled with fear.
When I look back and think how I let so many jerks disrespect me. *sigh* well, it makes one utterly and unbelievably angry. I am so mad at myself for being such a shmuck.
I'm still a very angry, bitter guy in many respects. I should take up boxing to get my aggressions out.
Are we raising a generation of kids who need laws protecting them from everything? But I do hate bullies.
Just needed someone to shake some sense in me as a lad and tell me to be a friggin' man.
Oh well...
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I was teased because I was a weak. A sissy, too afraid to stand up for myself.
End Quote
That's one thing football taught me. Violence can sometimes be the answer (fists, not guns). If you show you have some guts, i.e. take a swing at your tormentor, they'll have respect for you. You need to have the guts to take a stand, even though that 300 pound behemoth could snap you in two if he tried. You show that you're not the wussy (sensored) that they said you were. Then your tormentors will back off. Heck, they might even become your friends.
There are no bullies in the way adults think of them. There are collective bullies. A group of people will tease a kid who is goofy, akward, and passive. Those kind of kids can't just take it forever. They have to stand up now, or end up like the kids from Columbine.
The article obviously describes a different situation. The child is mentally retarded and should not be expected to stand up for himself. The school should protect him. I'd make other suggestions as to what should be done, but as Hairspray points out, we don't know everything.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
^I would think that a kid who shoots up his high school because he is being picked on....would face a new nightmare in prison. If he thought he was picked on in school, wait till he gets to prison and is put in a cell in between a couple of big guys named Bubba and Cletus.
I was picked on a lot in elementary and junior high, but by late junior high and definately by high school it suddenly stopped for me. No more bullying. A lot of it had to do with the fact that by 8th and 9th grade, I had worked hard enough to be put in the Honors and AP level classes. So now I was with the good kids. They didn't care about picking on anyone, they were more concerned about making good grades, having a stand out transcript and getting into a good college. Now they could still bully people through exclusion and their own little popular or nerd cliques, but the brutalizing bullying that Chino describes generally doesn't go on with the smart and popular kids. The only time I was exposed to the scum of the school again was when I was in P.E.. So kids these are two ways you can avoid bullies. Get good grades and be put in Honors and/or AP classes. OR, bulk up and try and play football. For me, getting the grades was the easier route, and I took it. Better to be with good, normal people then slime.
I don't buy that being picked on is an excuse to shoot up your school though. I've been picked on as a kid, and I know what it feels like. But I still knew right from wrong, and I could never live with myself if I somehow got a hold of a gun and shot up the place.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
The only time I was exposed to the scum of the high school was when I was in P.E..
End Quote
I loved PE class. I really needed the 50 minuites to get out of the stuffy school and on a baseball diamond or play Vollyball or Tennis. Not to mention it was a great time to goof off and relieve stress.
I think part of the problem with kids picking on each other is grade school is like a game of "king of the hill". So someone is a Brain, a Jock, a Princess, a Basket Case, a Criminal... Oh wait! That is Breakfast Club. Nevermind.
Start Mindless Story....
I remember one event in High School. There was this girl who liked me, but there was no way in hell she was going to tell me that. So in PE class we were playing Softball. There was this other kid who kinda liked her and she knew it. She told him "I hate John, and you know what you should do to John..... you should wait til he is at the plate and everyone is watching and you should run up behind him and pull his shorts down". Well the jack@ss did it to me. I got more date offers for turnabout that year than ever before. ;D
... End Mindless Story
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Certainly bullying is a problem that we've still only just begun to address, but if this child was as severly disabled as described then perhaps he shouldn't have been at that school at all. I don't think conventional schools are the right place for the severly retarded. It's not just bullying and teasing they would put up with; the school would simply not be able to cater for the needs of someone like that. Without knowing any more about the boy's family than presented in this article, it would seem to me that it was an extraordinarily irresponsible action to put a severly retarded and autistic child into a school for "normal" children. What did they expect would happen? I can understand any feelings or desires they may have had to endeavour to give their boy as "normal" a life as they could, but surely they understood that simply isn't possible?
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
I agree with Goreripper it would appear that this child was too disabled to be in an ordinary school.The comment that he makes screeching noises when trying to speak and would therefore not be able to tell a teacher he was bullied makes me think this.I have a friend whose child from his first marriage is severely disabled.Both parents refused to acknowledge at first how bad he was and his mother insisted against advice that he went to an ordinary school.The poor kid had a hell of a time there and in the end the school authorities insisted he was assessed.Finally his Mum admited he was as bad as he was and he was moved to a special school.The diference in him is astounding.So whilst yes I believe having children with special needs in all schools is a good thing I think the level of disability has to be taken into account
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I said "if".
End Quote
I know. It's just that even if the kid was in a regular class, we don't exactly know all of the circumstances surrounding the situation and/or all of the reasons as to why he was placed there in the first place. Perhaps the parents were advised to try having him with regular kids by school counselors? It is customary for school staff (counselors, principal, teachers) to formulate an opinion as to where they think a child should be placed upon the child's registration in school, especially if it is his/her first time.
A couple of other possible scenarios:
a) There may be no special needs schools in the area.
b) If there are any, they may be too costly.
Well, those are my thoughts anyway. :-/ It's just a very sad situation.
Looking on the bright side, however, something positive is coming out of this and that is the fact that the issue of "bullying" is finally being addressed with deserved seriousness.
P.S. I do think schools should do a better job supervising kids in general.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I agree with Goreripper it would appear that this child was too disabled to be in an ordinary school.The comment that he makes screeching noises when trying to speak and would therefore not be able to tell a teacher he was bullied makes me think this.I have a friend whose child from his first marriage is severely disabled.Both parents refused to acknowledge at first how bad he was and his mother insisted against advice that he went to an ordinary school.The poor kid had a hell of a time there and in the end the school authorities insisted he was assessed.Finally his Mum admited he was as bad as he was and he was moved to a special school.The diference in him is astounding.So whilst yes I believe having children with special needs in all schools is a good thing I think the level of disability has to be taken into account
End Quote
When I was in school, disabilities did not matter outside of having an IQ test lower than some set number (75 or 80-- where they would send that kid to an institution I presume). If there was a special need, then the school provided for the child. I think all kids, regardless of handicap should be integrated into normal classroom settings to some extent (at least for part of the day), if the school does it right. It does 2 things, helps the handicapped kid feel more a part of the community and he/she gets to know everyone, and 2) teaches everyone else how to deal with people in a good caring way.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
In 6th grade, I was walking home from school. The next thing I knew, I was surrounded by about 5 girls who wanted to "kick my @$$" for no other reason than the fact that they didn't like me. I thought it was very brave of them-5 on 1. Needless to say, the endrenoline kicked in. I was shaking because I was so very scared and didn't know what to do. I was trying to be brave and appear that I was wasn't afraid but I know it was obvious. Before the first punch/kick/or whatever was thrown, a "savoir" came by. I later discovered this person was the mother of another schoolmate of mine (someone who I wasn't exactly friends with-in fact, I orginally thought that this girl was part of the group who wanted to "kick my @$$). She saw what was happening and intervine on my behalf. I managed to escape without a scratch/bruise or anything else-except my fear. I walked home as fast as I could (I wanted to run but thought that I would seem a little more uneffected by the whole sitution then I really was-trying to keep it in so to speak.) My mother was at the door that day. As soon as I saw her and got inside, everything in me broke loose and I started crying uncontrollable.
After that, I would hurry home right after school hoping that those girls would never find alone again. I did move across town which helped a bit. But finally a few years later, I moved away from that town and was never so happy in my life. It was a very tramtic experence and to this day, I still can remember the endrenoline, the shaking, and the fear I had felt.
Cat
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
^I would think that a kid who shoots up his high school because he is being picked on....would face a new nightmare in prison. If he thought he was picked on in school, wait till he gets to prison and is put in a cell in between a couple of big guys named Bubba and Cletus.
I was picked on a lot in elementary and junior high, but by late junior high and definately by high school it suddenly stopped for me. No more bullying. A lot of it had to do with the fact that by 8th and 9th grade, I had worked hard enough to be put in the Honors and AP level classes. So now I was with the good kids. They didn't care about picking on anyone, they were more concerned about making good grades, having a stand out transcript and getting into a good college. Now they could still bully people through exclusion and their own little popular or nerd cliques, but the brutalizing bullying that Chino describes generally doesn't go on with the smart and popular kids. The only time I was exposed to the scum of the school again was when I was in P.E.. So kids these are two ways you can avoid bullies. Get good grades and be put in Honors and/or AP classes. OR, bulk up and try and play football. For me, getting the grades was the easier route, and I took it. Better to be with good, normal people then slime.
I don't buy that being picked on is an excuse to shoot up your school though. I've been picked on as a kid, and I know what it feels like. But I still knew right from wrong, and I could never live with myself if I somehow got a hold of a gun and shot up the place.
End Quote
*Note - :P Not completely sober at time of writing :P *
I dunno. This whole post struck me as verging on classist. :-/
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I loved PE class.
End Quote
I'd have to say the opposite on this. People thought i was dodgy enough anyway, when i came back to live in Wales. My opinions; my dress sense; my accent, but playing football on the field really wrecked any chances i had at being properly accepted. In some parts of the U.K., football can be like a religion, so when they realised that i was not only crap at it but i didn't really invest any emotions into it, that was pretty much the end for me. :-/
Of course, growing up in rural Wales and the muslim Middle-East, P.E. was nearly without fail, segregated, so there weren't any love stories to be had there - given the attitude to sexuality in both areas. I don't do well in high testosterone situations :P :-/
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
In some parts of the U.K., football can be like a religion
End Quote
Same thing in the USA, and even more so in the southern states like Alabama where all people care about in the fall is football. I love football (although you may be talking about soccer and I am talking about football like rugby). We had some people in my PE class that would rather be elsewhere, but they played with us just the same. They were smart enough to get out of the way when one of the bigger kids came running through like a train about to derail. In the end I think everyone had fun. Plus, in my school, we only got 3 weeks of a sport then we had to do something else. So in any one term we played many different sports, and there was something for everyone.
Start funny story....
One of the 3 week units was golf. I was horrible at it, I sliced and hooked the ball, and whenever i was on the green to put, I would hit the ball 100 feet past the hole, then back the other way past the hole again. By the end of class, I would still be at hole 1 with about 60 strokes. I sucked at golf. So after a few days I got together with some of the other guys who were in the same boat as me, and we started playing baseball with the golf club as a bat and the golf ball as a baseball. We would pick up the golf ball, toss it straight up in the air, and swing with the golf club. The teacher was not happy, till he saw we were, by some stroke of luck, getting the golfball closer to the green than the other way. Fun times.
... End funny story
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Funny you should mention golf...
In some ways i most militant in primary (elementary) school, so i'd absolutely refuse to play football. So usually i'd end up having to either play netball with the girls or just watch (which even then... ;) ).
But one time, the headmaster (principal...it was a very small school) just handed me a golf club and a ball and basically told me to go on the first field and just pretty much mess around - that was the best P.E. lesson i had in primary. :P
Unfortunately, they were never as...'liberal' with any of my other lessons. :-/
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Some good responses and interesting history's. Anyone want to confess to being a former bully? ;)
My issue with the lawsuit as being selfish on the part of the parents comes from a few sides.
1. The greatest fault I see is the child was pulled out of school after only on week. It's rediculous to think that cultural behaviours can change within 5 school days.
2. That child did not belong in a standard school room. Cognitive ability at the 1% level! I'm sorry, but that is extremely low.
3. These are kindergartners, for many of these kids this is there first time outside of home or daycare setting, 1st time where they are expected to work within the group setting. This was a very stressful and frightening period for a lot of kids, to consider adding this stressor to a severly handicapped child like that borders on cruel.
4. 5 year olds can be cruel without knowing they're being cruel. Their social skills are in the infancy stage of development. To expect the classmates to deal with an oddity in a sensitive and appropriate manner is expecting to much, it would be know different than expecting a 5 year old to multiply or spell "vacuum" correctly.
5. A point of the lawsuit was the child wouldn't be able to communicate a physical assault if ever attacked. However, it was communicated that he was being verbally harrassed, by specific children, and the verbal harrasment was quoted, defined and not witnessed by any supervising adults.
The parents need to find him a better placement for a child of that handicap level. This is for better education and safety of the child. Those types of programs are available in the area and have more one-on-one interaction, teachers trained towards special needs kids, and activites beeter suited for their polulation.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
Some good responses and interesting history's. Anyone want to confess to being a former bully? ;)
End Quote
Me and a mate (and a couple of Dutch guys who are over) were just talking about this in the pub this afternoon. I was pretty much always the bullied. A couple of times i fought back, like the time this bloke Bassam (granted, he was having a hard time cos his parents were breaking up) was talk crap about/to me as usual and i just snapped and got him by the neck up against the lockers and told him (using more graphic language than i used to use in them days) to shut up - he was stunned silent for about a minute and then he just carried on his rant but changed the topic to me being a 'psycho' - oh, well...made me feel better anyway.
But most of the time, the only people i was particularly bully-like with was the people who were s to me. I had this theory i could get up the hierarchy in school if i took the mick out of the people who were a bit above me - nearly all people who...weren't pleasent to me. And it worked to a certain extent.
Funnily enough, the bloke who was probably one of the most psycho people in school when i was in secondary (high) school - who was famous for hospitalising people for the slightest reasons - i didn't know him (or his reputation) at the time so when he was chucking things at me i whacked him one in the face and told him to fck off. After that, people told me i was extremely lucky that he just laughed it off - as i said, higher people had been hospitalised for less; the guy stabbed a bloke who robbed his house and he's in and out of prison all the time these days. It seems he had a little respect cos i actually stood up him despite his credentials (luckily he didn't know i was ignorant) and i was at the very bottom of the pile. I'm just glad i was never there for the school's 'worst years' in the Eighties where people set fire to class rooms and chucked teachers out of second storey windows (no joke).
High-school hierarchies still fascinate me. Apparently it's more exaggerated in American school, more cliquey and more rigid. We didn't have the Jock/Cheerleader lot at the top of the pile here, it was more the 'hardmen' (toughguys) who could beat people up etc. followed by the class clowns who would talk back to the teachers and cause general mischief to play up their audience.
Oops, i been rambling again. :-X
Quoting:
4. 5 year olds can be cruel without knowing they're being cruel. Their social skills are in the infancy stage of development. To expect the classmates to deal with an oddity in a sensitive and appropriate manner is expecting to much, it would be know different than expecting a 5 year old to multiply or spell "vacuum" correctly.
End Quote
This is a good point and very well put. I agree with you.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
*Note - :P Not completely sober at time of writing :P *
I dunno. This whole post struck me as verging on classist. :-/
End Quote
Well, perhaps it is. But who do you think you are likely to have pick a physical fight with you and literally spit on you? The guys working down on the docks, or a white collar worker?
Hey, I'm just telling how it was from my experiences. I was also picked on in elementary and most of junior high. But when I got into the Honors and AP classes in 8th and 9th grade, it all suddenly stopped. It was from then on smooth sailing. The kids in those classes were simply flat out more mature. Sure the smart kids had their own forms of bullying like I have mentioned, i.e., excluding people from things, sometimes saying stuff, and having their own rigid cliques whether it be a nerd clique or a popular clique.....but the kind of nightmare I endured in the regular classes before high school didn't go on in the accelarated courses. And if they did say something or try and pick on me, I felt like I could stand up for myself and say something back on a more intellectual level without "keeping it real" or resorting to trash talking.
The only time I was exposed to the bad elements, was ofcourse when I took P.E. The didn't offer Advanced Placement or Honors P.E. at my school.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
(Excuse my verbal diarrœa today, dunno what it is :-/ )
I dunno. I was in the top classes at some points for some things. For instance, science and maths, i went from the lowest set (i dunno what you call that in the U.S., 'stream' maybe?) to the highest and then, for science, down to set 2 or 3 (set 1 being the highest level and set 6 being the lowest), and in my experience, the people in the top set where the people from the same kinds of areas as me: the middle-class kids from the Anglicised villages and the surburbs of the town.
They weren't necessarily bright; they were just the people who worked hard at lessons, that's how i ended up in their ranks, i started working hard because my parents said they were basically ready to disown me and that i'd have no future if i didn't start working at things.
The guy i hit back at, Lav - the bloke who would hospitalise people and stabbed a bloke for robbing his house - my mate was saying he started off (before i came to the school) in like second set for maths - he's a pretty clever guy really, it's just all his mates that he'd grown up with were from council estates (government housing? projects? I'm not sure what the U.S. equivalent is) and that's what they were doing at the time.
And as for white-collar workers and dockers: I dropped out of college and just went straight into factory work and the guys i worked with were fine - opviously i didn't quite fit in (wearing punk-influenced clothes and hairstyles to work in the first year: skinhead; ripped jeans; braces and putting my punk tapes on the machine in our area) and i've always been shy and untalkative.
But they didn't bully me - generally i've noticed after school people tend to 'mellow out' a bit. The real 'shady characters' end up in prison and such most of the time and the others just get on with things - everyday life. The blokes i worked with were pretty cool; once they got me talking. Granted, they talked behind a few people's backs (especially the boss's) and i'm sure they took the mick out of me when i wasn't about (and subtle stuff in front of me) but i never got into fights with them or serious arguments.
There wasn't really anyone at work i truly disliked - although there was this one guy who liked to make up stories about how he was dating two girls and would say 'oo just got another text message' and pretend he'd been on holiday with mates but he'd really gone with his parents, he was kind of annoying.
In college (before i dropped out), with all the A-Level students (again, unsure of equivalents here, High-School graduates i spose), there were more people who shared my taste in music and would talk about philosophical kinds of things but then there were also still some of the old verbal/mental bullies (opviously the physical ones had been filtered out by the system); i remember i got loads of grief when my watch broke and i had to keep it in my pocket (as someone said, they'll pick on anything).
The college wasn't only a Sixth Form (A-Level) College but also a technical college for people studying Mechanics, Plumbing, Carpentry etc. and they were pretty much segregated from us - they had their breaks at different times and hang out in their own groups in their own little hang-out areas around the building - it was very cliquey.
And yes, a lot of these guys were just...a-holes. Ignorant, reactionary and bigotted about people on the A-Level courses. But this bigotry cut both ways, people in our classes - our 'clique' - were always badmouthing, putting down and generally taking the mick out of the technical college types, always making jokes about their stupidity and inferiority and the 'easy' courses they were on.
The only difference was the A-Level types wouldn't say it to technical types faces, whereas the technical ones would always be very verbal about us. But it was always verbal - maybe some light objects thrown about but no actual fights.
Quoting:
But who do you think you are likely to have pick a physical fight with you and literally spit on you? The guys working down on the docks, or a white collar worker?
End Quote
As to this bit, the only person who has ever spat at me was the son of a white-collar worker and he only spat at me because i spat at him first. And i've come close a lot but i've never been in a physical fight - and that's usually been with people i've actually known a long time because we actually had some reason to fight - nearly all middle-class.
And i don't really come into contact with any white-collar workers: Most of the people i hung around with at school with have either gone on to university (and haven't really been heard from again) or are high-school drop-outs like me. The only white-collar workers i know are my parents.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
4. 5 year olds can be cruel without knowing they're being cruel. Their social skills are in the infancy stage of development. To expect the classmates to deal with an oddity in a sensitive and appropriate manner is expecting to much, it would be know different than expecting a 5 year old to multiply or spell "vacuum" correctly.End Quote
With all due respect, I disagree with this observation above and here's why:
I firmly believe children's behavior depends on how they are raised and on what and how they are taught at home by their parents/guardians. As an educator, I have experienced and witnessed stable, well taught children be sensitive and kind to others, especially those who are different. I have observed this of all-aged children, even 4 and 5 year-olds.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
With all due respect, I disagree with this observation above and here's why:
I firmly believe children's behavior depends on how they are raised and on what and how they are taught at home by their parents/guardians. As an educator, I have experienced and witnessed stable, well taught children be sensitive and kind to others, especially those who are different. I have observed this of all-aged children, even 4 and 5 year-olds.
End Quote
Hey Hairspray! Good to hear from you, and I do agree too. However, there is exceptions. I was a nice little kid and handled many things in a sensitive and accepting way. There was one incident when I was 4 years old that was not inteneded to be mean but created a breif and uncomfortable situation. I was raised in an community that was white, only white, and white it still is. I was visiting my father who was stationed at a US military base and went to the playground and witnessed my first black child. "Hey! Why are you black?" I asked. I was curious, never seen anything like that before. My stepmom told me, "Black is beautiful" (As you can tell from that statement this was early 70's) At that point the black child was good with me and we played together.
If those playground children were directly supervised with there interaction with the handicapped child then maybe his brief public educational experiance would have worked better, but as we know, there is not enough supervision on school campuses.
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Confessions of bullyness-
Through school I was nice and got along with most. The only troubles I had were with "bully wannabes" Kids that weren't the toughest but thougt they were tougher than me. Pretty cool to kick the butt of someone who created a big stage to show me up. It only had to happen a few times to end that behavior.
When I was in my early 20s and had lost the thick glasses and page boy haircut I found that I could bully without ever threatening anyone. I developed a cold and steady gaze, unflinching and emotionless. You want to make people uncomfortable, try that Clint Eastwood spaghetti western effect. It works so good. 8)
I'm older now and just win people over with love, it works well too. :)
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I was visiting my father who was stationed at a US military base and went to the playground and witnessed my first black child. "Hey! Why are you black?" I asked. I was curious, never seen anything like that before. My stepmom told me, "Black is beautiful" (As you can tell from that statement this was early 70's) At that point the black child was good with me and we played together.
End Quote
This reminds me of a story i heard about a small-town Welsh kid; they were doing some school exercise or some game where they all had to hold hands and the girl next to this kid was Asian (from the Subcontinent) - she refused to hold the girl's hand cos she said it was 'dirty'. But that's rural Wales for you :-/
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
UPDATE- The courts made the right decision on this one.
District absolved in teasing suit
Disabled boy's rights not violated, court rules
By KATHY GEORGE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
The Federal Way School District has successfully defended itself against a lawsuit alleging that it should have stopped merciless teasing of a severely disabled 6-year-old boy.
In the first ruling in the country addressing the issue, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals found no violation of the boy's rights because -- despite cruel comments by his classmates -- the boy could still benefit from going to school.
Also, the court said the school staff had no meaningful chance to correct the problem because the boy's parents pulled him out of kindergarten after just five days of seeing other kids mock and malign him.
Experts disagree on whether the ruling will make it harder to protect other disabled children from bullies.
Bill Dusseault, a Seattle attorney and special education expert, said last week's ruling sets a bad standard for schools throughout Washington.
He said the proper focus is not how teasing affected the boy, who was so severely retarded and autistic that he couldn't talk and ranked in the bottom 1 percent of cognitive ability, but whether the school climate made teasing acceptable.
"It tells the district in this case that it was OK for one group of kids to pick on another kid. That should never be OK," Dusseault said. "It tells the other students that it is acceptable to tease students who are different."
But Seattle University law professor Jim Rosenfeld expects the ruling to have limited impact.
"I don't think it establishes any standard," he said, noting the lack of evidence that the teasing actually harmed the Federal Way boy.
The boy, identified in the suit only as M.L., may not have heard some of the teasing because he often wore headphones -- listening to his favorite music as a way of controlling his classroom behavior, court records say.
When the boy entered kindergarten three years ago, Federal Way schools had a policy against teasing. And Federal Way School Board President Bob Millen said yesterday that the ruling will not diminish the district's strong commitment to prevent teasing and harassment.
"Our policies can always be more stringent than the law," he said.
The mute boy couldn't report the teasing himself. But his mother testified that every day during her son's first week at Mark Twain Elementary School, she heard other children on the playground and in his classroom call him "stupid" and "crazy" and make fun of his attempts to talk.
When M.L. tried to talk, he sometimes made a screaming sound instead, court records say.
His mother reported the teasing to M.L.'s teacher, who witnessed only one incident, and to the vice principal, who responded by encouraging the teacher and mother to talk, the records say.
The teacher "did not take any action regarding the teasing incidents" but did promise to watch for problems in class and to "intervene if necessary," according to the three-judge panel's unanimous ruling.
The boy's parents did not prove the school was deliberately indifferent to the teasing, but even if they did, that wouldn't be enough to violate the boy's rights, the court said.
Under the federal Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act, disabled children have the right to an "appropriate" public education designed to meet their individual needs.
A school's deliberate indifference to teasing would violate that right if "the teasing is so severe that the child can derive no benefit from the services offered by the school," the court held. In this case, M.L. was not stripped of all educational opportunity, so there was no violation, according to the ruling.
M.L. lost on other issues as well. His parents wanted him to stay in a regular classroom where he could learn from non-disabled children and said he would be unsafe surrounded by older disabled children in the special classroom the district planned to move him to.
But the court agreed with the school district that the boy's whining, crying and tantrums would be too disruptive in a regular classroom and that his severe disabilities made the special classroom more appropriate.
The court also found that, although the school district violated M.L.'s right to have a regular teacher as well as a special education teacher on his education-planning team, it wouldn't have made any difference.
The ruling means the district won't have to repay M.L.'s parents for private school costs. The parents could appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.
Jim Lobsenz, the attorney for the boy's parents, said M.L.'s inability to talk seemed lost on the court.
His parents pulled him out of the Federal Way school not because the teasing had become intolerable, but because if it went unchecked, "no one will ever know if it's intolerable," Lobsenz said.
Under the ruling, he said, other children will realize quickly that "no one cares what we do to this kid."
Subject: Re: UPDATE-School yard teasing
I suppose I was a bit of an odd case. I was introverted when I was younger so bullies wanted to bully me. They didn't realise how unnaffected I was by them.
I won most of their respect by the time I left school - a bit late wasn't it?
Subject: Re: School yard teasing
Quoting:
I remember kids like him when I was growing up. As far as I remember, people never went after the retarded or disabled kids. That was lower then low to do that, and a bully who picked on a retarded kid invited himself to all sorts of humiliation and danger. Yes even in elementary school. Though I understand that these kids are really young, say 6 years of age?
When I was growing up in the 80's, I don't think I ever remember seeing or hearing about a retarded kid being openly picked on, so I'm kinda shocked to read about this. Kids are definately immature and cruel, that's why they're kids. But I don't think most kids over the age of 7 or 8 would ever dare to openly pick on a retarded or disabled kid.
End Quote
No offense, but you obviously didn't go to a school like mine. I have cerebral palsy and some vision problems, so the kids, up through the 10th grade, thought it was just fine to pick on me. I am now a senior in high school, and I still have horrible memories of things that happened. For example, when I was in second grade, there was a girl in the third grade who threw rocks at me. She knew I couldn't see who was doing it, so she had some fun. I was hit at least three times that I can remember. I told the recess teacher from the first day on, and she gave the girl a warning, but that was it, even after the girl continued doing it repeatedly. The teachers did nothing.
Then there was the time in math class in the tenth grade when some boys threw paper wads at me the whole period. Again, they knew I couldn't see who was doing it, so they had some fun. The teacher did threaten them with detention, but that doesn't mean that other pranks were not pulled on me in the future. There have been many more incidents, but I'll stop here. I guess some people will always be immature.
Subject: Re: UPDATE-School yard teasing
Okay, as a mother of 3 young boys, I have to say that this kid never belonged in a "regular" classroom setting. I have no problem with "mainstreaming" the handicapped, but this child had no verbal skills, behavior problems, and obviously couldn't hear the teacher if he was wearing headphones to listen to music.
Quoting:disabled children have the right under federal law to receive an "appropriate" education tailored to their individual needs.End Quote
I realize that "appropriate" is a broad term, but how could the parents think that a "mainstream" classroom setting, where the teacher has 20-30 children would provide ANYTHING beneficial to this child? The child obviously has special needs, and they expect a kindergarten teacher to be able to deal with them? The regular teacher probably doesn't have much experience handling children such as this, whereas the special education teacher would have the training to handle him. Not to mention that the rest of the children in the regular classroom would probably have less access to the teacher if she/he is having to spend extra time with this one particular student. Sorry, but I also side with the school district on this one.
And, has this case been ongoing for a few years, or did I misunderstand that the child is 6 and started kindergarten 3 years ago?
Subject: Re: UPDATE-School yard teasing
Quoting:
Okay, as a mother of 3 young boys, I have to say that this kid never belonged in a "regular" classroom setting. I have no problem with "mainstreaming" the handicapped, but this child had no verbal skills, behavior problems, and obviously couldn't hear the teacher if he was wearing headphones to listen to music.
I realize that "appropriate" is a broad term, but how could the parents think that a "mainstream" classroom setting, where the teacher has 20-30 children would provide ANYTHING beneficial to this child? The child obviously has special needs, and they expect a kindergarten teacher to be able to deal with them? The regular teacher probably doesn't have much experience handling children such as this, whereas the special education teacher would have the training to handle him. Not to mention that the rest of the children in the regular classroom would probably have less access to the teacher if she/he is having to spend extra time with this one particular student. Sorry, but I also side with the school district on this one.
And, has this case been ongoing for a few years, or did I misunderstand that the child is 6 and started kindergarten 3 years ago?
End Quote
My feelings exactly, and they only gave it one school week to "fix" the problem and who the heck heard the teasing reported to the mother anyway?
I believe it did occur 3 years ago when he was 6 but it is a bit unclear in the story. I posted the court decision on this case just because when I read the 1st published story it reeked of some parents exploiting their childrens handicap for taxpayers money.
Subject: Re: UPDATE-School yard teasing
Quoting: I think all kids should have the absolute right to get a good education free of harrasment. End Quote
Amen to that!