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Subject: How did Bush Lie?
This is for all of you anti-war types who are claiming bush lied. How exactley did he lie? here is what he said:
Quoting:''The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.''
End Quote
Is this really a lie? It was true at the time. The British are sticking by the intelligence, and claiming they got the info from France. So before all you liberals go on the attack, I just want you to know the claims of Bush's lie are way off base. This statement was not the key reason for going to war, so why is it such a big deal now?
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
He either lied or he heard what he wanted to hear. It was well known through the intelligence community that this information was false. George W. either lied to us, or he was stupid enough to leap onto this shred of "evidence" in order to justify his war.
Neither way looks good.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Well, he's certainly lied since:
Quoting:"The larger point is, and the fundamental question is, did Saddam Hussein have a weapons program? And the answer is, absolutely. And we gave him a chance to allow the inspectors in, and he wouldn't let them in. And, therefore, after a reasonable request, we decided to remove him from power, along with other nations, so as to make sure he was not a threat to the United States and our friends and allies in the region."End Quote
This is taken from the White House site... President Reaffirms Strong Position on Liberia - look at the last paragraph.
With respect to the Niger/Uranium connection, reports suggest the intelligence community was pretty convinced it was without foundation from the start, but there was a lot of filtering of unwanted information going on. It's as true of Blair as it is of Bush: either a fool or a rogue - personally I'd rather have a competent rogue running the country than a fool; however, it's starting to look like both :-(
Phil
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
I think Blair was the rogue and Bush was the fool. Then the fool made the rogue his poodle. Then there were two fools.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Hmm...just wondering about this one, if Iraq had said the reason why they didn't want U.N. inspectors in was because of 'National Security' people would have said 'O.K., fair enough'. If i had been Saddam, i'd certainly have given it a go. Hmmm.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Hmm...just wondering about this one, if Iraq had said the reason why they didn't want U.N. inspectors in was because of 'National Security' people would have said 'O.K., fair enough'. If i had been Saddam, i'd certainly have given it a go. Hmmm.
End Quote
That was the reason that he wouldn't let the inspectors into the presidential palaces - it worked to start with, but he caved in (so to speak) when B&B started sounding like they actually were going to invade... but it ended up making no difference, they invaded anyway.
Phil
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Then i propose we invade the United States.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
He was only doing what British leaders have done since the Revolution of 1776. Blair was known to kiss up to Clinton before the liberal press complained about his association with Bush. That's what happens when the media spins the news for their own purposes.
Quoting:
I think Blair was the rogue and Bush was the fool. Then the fool made the rogue his poodle. Then there were two fools.
End Quote
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
That's what happens when the media spins the news for their own purposes.
End Quote
I think the media should get back to the 3 w's in reporting: Who, Where and When. They should leave the fourth w, Why's, for the editorial section in the paper. Otherwise you get "Fair and Balanced" reporting, which is really a spin for the "Taliban wing of the Republican party".
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
How come, John? I think this is a legitimate question. We must decide if Bush is lying or not, and to sit on this is a big mistake.
End Quote
No, you misunderstand. I accidently double posted.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
He was only doing what British leaders have done since the Revolution of 1776. Blair was known to kiss up to Clinton before the liberal press complained about his association with Bush. That's what happens when the media spins the news for their own purposes.
End Quote
Well, the British did go to war with us in 1812. That's hardly kissing up to us. It would be more accurate to say that the British have done this since WWII. But then again, I don't know much about British and American cooperation before Clinton.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
You can actually delete your own posts as long as you are a member.
Quoting:
No, you misunderstand. I accidently double posted.
End Quote
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Duly noted. ;)
Quoting:
Well, the British did go to war with us in 1812. That's hardly kissing up to us. End Quote
Maybe WWI too.
Quoting:
It would be more accurate to say that the British have done this since WWII. End Quote
From what I heard from NBC, Blair and the British embraced both Clintons, and Blair's party, if I'm not mistaken, is similar to the Democratic Party here.
Quoting:
But then again, I don't know much about British and American cooperation before Clinton.End Quote
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
While not technically lying, little georgie has also evaded the truth about his drug use, is DWI tickets, and his stock manipulations.
A really great, honest president. Just what we need.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
But was he under oath like Clinton during that Pres' lying? ;)
Quoting:
While not technically lying, little georgie has also evaded the truth about his drug use, is DWI tickets, and his stock manipulations.
A really great, honest president. Just what we need.
End Quote
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Since I am not American and am unfamiliar with US law, I do not know whether or not Bush broke any laws when he exagerated the threat of Saddams chemical and nuclear capabilities.
But I would like to ask all the Bush supporters on this site how they can feel comfortable in saying that it is alright that he lied to you because he did not do it under oath.
So basically what you are saying is that the only time the leader of your country should have to tell you the truth is when he is on trial and has his hand on a bible?
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Since I am not American and am unfamiliar with US law, I do not know whether or not Bush broke any laws when he exagerated the threat of Saddams chemical and nuclear capabilities.End Quote
I'm not sure how much of it was exaggerated and how much had a factual basis but I guess it's all a moot point now. But I do agree with what you said below:
Quoting:
But I would like to ask all the Bush supporters on this site how they can feel comfortable in saying that it is alright that he lied to you because he did not do it under oath.
So basically what you are saying is that the only time the leader of your country should have to tell you the truth is when he is on trial and has his hand on a bible?
End Quote
The truth is the truth is the truth. I don't care if he said it to his dog or if he did it on a stack of Bibles, he can't weasel out of it on a "technicality". Despite not being "under oath" the Prez has an obligation not to mislead the American people. However, I note a discrepancy and a double standard between Dubya and Clinton. Dubya hasn't been proved to have lied yet, but he's being skewered and crucified. Clinton had been proved to lie on some rather significant occasions, yet his lies are brushed off.
It's partisan politics, friend. I've gotten used to it. I choose to believe what I want. But like I said before, the truth is the truth, and a lie, no matter how you slice it, is a lie.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
There is even more at work here. Bush has discredited the United States to the rest of the world. When Colin Powel entered the United Nations to convince them that Iraq was an immediate threat and that Iraq had wepons of mass distruction, he was putting the United States credibility on the line. He said the United States and world community could not wait any longer. We had to move right away. There was no time to wait.
When George Bush gave the State of the Union, he was telling congress, and the rest of us, that Saddam was a high threat that had to be dealt with immediatley with force. There was a member of congress on TV today who said that George Bush's speech tipped him on the side of voting to support military action because Bush convinced him Iraq was a strong and immediate threat to Isreal and Saudi Arabia. That same member of congress went on to say that the next time bush asks for support, he will likely not believe him. He called Bush "the president who cried wolf".
Remember, we had sanctions against Iraq which crippled the country. We also had pleanty of time, and air domination over the country. They could not fly any planes without our approvel. We had satelites which told us exactly what was happening. And we had arms inspectors on the ground who told us that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and that the country's ability to produce them was severely crippled. Bush called them liars and continued his campaign for war.
In the end, Bush may have gotten his way, but I am postitive when it comes time to deal with bigger threats like Korea, nobody in the world community will believe him. The United States made fools of all the countries which joined in. They will not want to be suckered again.
And for the rest of us in America. We should all know that this war is costing us a billion dollars a week, and everyday some American is gunned down. I believe life is worth more than throwing it away because Bush was impatent and lied to us so he could have some legacy in the history books. I also think that the republicans should pick up the cost of the war, that it should be the richest 5%. The rest of us did not want this war and the rest of us have no obligation to pay it.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Every President has lied during his time in office, even the other GW (George Washington) and "Honest" Abe. The difference is that Clinton did it during a national audience and Dubya, whether or not he lied, is careful not to make the same mistake. In either case, God (or another superior being ::) ) should make the final judgment. I'm not perfect or a scholar in religious theology, but I do believe that lying to officials is as bad as, if not worse than, lying to the press. ;D
Quoting:
Since I am not American and am unfamiliar with US law, I do not know whether or not Bush broke any laws when he exagerated the threat of Saddams chemical and nuclear capabilities.
But I would like to ask all the Bush supporters on this site how they can feel comfortable in saying that it is alright that he lied to you because he did not do it under oath.
So basically what you are saying is that the only time the leader of your country should have to tell you the truth is when he is on trial and has his hand on a bible?
End Quote
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Every President has lied during his time in office, even the other GW (George Washington) and "Honest" Abe. The difference is that Clinton did it during a national audience and Dubya, whether or not he lied, is careful not to make the same mistake. In either case, God (or another superior being ::) ) should make the final judgment. I'm not perfect or a scholar in religious theology, but I do believe that lying to officials is as bad as, if not worse than, lying to the press. ;D
End Quote
Making an official statement to everyone in America is now considered talking to the press? If presidents are not expected to be honest in a State of the Union address, when can we expect them to be honest?
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Making an official statement to everyone in America is now considered talking to the press? If presidents are not expected to be honest in a State of the Union address, when can we expect them to be honest?
End Quote
It is different for the State of the Union. The Constitution mandates the president deliver a State of the Union to Congress. So it is not considered to be to the american people, even though we all watch. The main point of the State of the Union is to tell Congress his vision for the next year and ask them to support his plans.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Every President has lied during his time in office, even the other GW (George Washington) and "Honest" Abe. End Quote
Do you have evidence as to how Washington and Abe lied? I'd be interested in it.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
This might be interesting.
http://www.rutlandherald.com/Columns/Article/68982.html
A rather harsh condemnation.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Do you have evidence as to how Washington and Abe lied? I'd be interested in it.
End Quote
I don't know about lying, but Abe suspended the writ of Habeus Ceorpus (kan't spel) and arrested the Maryland legislature to prevent them from voting for secession.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
The new thread I just posted, with the link, exposes LOTS of Bush lies. The guy doesn't know the difference between lies and the truth. He should be impeached.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Screwball's point was that Bush said that while the source from American intelligence was discredited, Bush said that his source was British intelligence, which the British are sticking by. Those who disagreed with him ignored his point and simply asserted that the information was completely false. Neither side tried to debate the other. I'm disappointed; I feel Screwball had a worthwhile point and I would like to see it rebutted.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Bush lied when he said that the reason for the war was the fact that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and that war was necessary to disarm him as he posed an imminent threat.
What's more amazing is that this premise wasn't based on current intelligence gained recently but on intelligence gathered in 1991.
America has some of the best spy surveillance satellites in the world and we were given to understand that there were agents on the ground whose lives would be compromised if information was given out. If that's true why is it that the army do not have a clue where to find the weapons of mass destruction?
The simple answer is that the intelligence services assumed that they were still there instead of doing what real intelligence agents do and find out definitely. Many American and British soldiers have died bravely but unnecessarily because Saddam did not pose an imminent threat to the West which Bush and Blair led their peoples to believe.
The other sad thing is that though the war was planned reasonably well, there was no clear plan as to what to do when the country was captured, which is why Iraqis are free but live in poor living conditions, with few amenities and rationed food.
I think most people agree that they are better off without Saddam but then Bush and Blair didn't say to the people we must free the Iraqis from oppression, they said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and was an imminent threat.
Even today the weapons have not been found.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
I'm disappointed; I feel Screwball had a worthwhile point and I would like to see it rebutted.
End Quote
I kind of brushed over this a bit earlier... but in more detail:
The British Government (one assumes it was MI6) bought some "intelligence" from some dubious Africans in Italy - at the time, the Italian and the French intelligence services were both saying that it wasn't worth the paper it was written on, supported by portions of ours, too. The belief that this was valid information lasted for a couple of days at most, except amongst the people who really wanted to believe.
Bush should have known that the overwhelming majority of opinion was that the Niger uranium connection was spurious: either nobody had told him (!) or he chose not to listen... Or he listened, understood - and lied.
Phil
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Junior's lies and near lies:
Iraqi WMDs - no need to comment
Iraqi search for fissionable material - a lie
Drunk driving - a "youthful indiscretion" (goes on into his 30's)
Political influence to get into Texas Air National Guard (daddy was a congressman) - denied
Pol Inf re VERY rapid promotion - denied
Binge drinking - not confirmed or denied
Cocaine use - no response (except youthful indiscretion. Witnesses talk about "experimenting").
insider trading - denied. FCC dropped its investigation (while daddy was pres)
Harkin Oil's (GWB's firm) Bahrain concession - "no political influence (yeah, right! Daddy was Pres.)
ties to Bank of Credit and Commerce (an international money laundering operation, now defunct) - denied, but lots of evidance to the contrary.
political influence in new Texas Rangers' stadium - political blackmail, coersion of land owners, altering "eminant domian" laws. Wrong doing denied.
Sleeping with every west Texas bimbo he could find - denied.
The man is a sleeze bucket. Charming maybe, to some, but a sleeze bucket.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Charming maybe, to some, but a sleeze bucket.
End Quote
Charming? I can hardly see W. sweeping Cinderella off her feet to his castle in West Texas. ;D
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
Charming? I can hardly see W. sweeping Cinderella off her feet to his castle in West Texas. ;D
End Quote
Maybe you can't, nor can I, but apparently many people DO find him charming. No accounting (as they say in Bree) for east and west. To me, he's charming like a snake (a cobra), and just as deadly.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Junior also lied (or streatch the truth) on numerous other issues. His actions on the death penalty as Texas govorner were callouse and reprehensible at best. His environmental record sucked. His "inclusion" of minorities was smoke and mirrors. The man is dangerous - worse, the man id a fascist. He needs to get gone.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Bush has never denied taking cocaine, and apparently was arrested for posession in 1972, during his "irresponsible youth". During a time that he was cruising in his TR6 convertible, boozing, and bedding every Texas bimbo he could find, he was also working (for 6 months) at an inner city project called Project P.U.L.L., playing baseball with street wise black kids. Sound incongruous? That was his community service. There was no trial or conviction, just a trade between Daddy and the judge. Court record was expunged because of pressure from GHW Bush, but remained on his driver's licence records. So, in 1995, he got a new drivers licence number and the records attached to his old one "dissapeared"
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
News Flash:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=US&cat=Bush_Administration
Sec of State Colin Powell finally found his pants, and so is leaving the Bush (mal)administration. About time.
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:Sec of State Colin Powell finally found his pants, and so is leaving the Bush (mal)administration. About time.
End Quote
I was waiting for someone here to make this story into a big breaking news headline laced with the typical anti-Bush spin job. ::)
Before you start spinning this story out of countrol, keep in mind: "Powell has indicated to associates that a commitment made to his wife, rather than any dismay at the administration's foreign policy, is a key factor in his desire to limit his tenure to one presidential term."
On a side note: What does the Colin Powell retirement story have to do with this thread anyway? I have a theory as to why it was placed in this thread, but I will keep it to myself for now. ;)
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
On a side note: What does the Colin Powell retirement story have to do with this thread anyway? I have a theory as to why it was placed in this thread, but I will keep it to myself for now. ;)
End Quote
Although Powell now claims that this was just a rumor, I was hoping, as my post indicated, that he finally put his pants back on and recognized this admistration for the lying, hypocritical bunch of fanatics that they are, and decided to cut and run. At one time I respected Powell as a highly intelligent and well informed man. He may be, but he is acting like a pap dog, and has lost my respect. Whether he says or goes no longer matters to me. He has, as far as I'm concerned, fouled his nest by lying down with the neo-fascists (you FBI Guys got that?).
As to relevence, who started the gossip? Another Bush lie to distract attention from the REALLY BIG ones, like WMD's in Iraq and Iraqi ties to Al Quida?
And just where IS Saddam, and Osama?
So, as I keep sasying on the WMD thread, "And the beat goes on..."
Subject: Re: How did Bush Lie?
Quoting:
So, as I keep sasying on the WMD thread, "And the beat goes on..."
End Quote
yes, we saw it the first time...and again and again and again... ::)
No need to repeat it on a daily basis. We get it already. ::)