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Subject: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
I am surprised all American leftists, die hard ones, don't do this. And I know the reaction of many pro-American people and conservatives: Good riddance!
Michael Moore the filmmaker should be living up in Canada! Move there leftists, stay there!
Opinions???
NEW YORK (July 19) - For all they share economically and culturally, Canada and the United States are increasingly at odds on basic social policies - to the point that at least a few discontented Americans are planning to move north and try their neighbors' way of life.
A husband and wife in Minnesota, a college student in Georgia, a young executive in New York. Though each has distinct motives for packing up, they agree the United States is growing too conservative and believe Canada offers a more inclusive, less selfish society.
``For me, it's a no-brainer,'' said Mollie Ingebrand, a puppeteer from Minneapolis who plans to go to Vancouver with her lawyer husband and 2-year-old son.
``It's the most amazing opportunity I can imagine. To live in a society where there are different priorities in caring for your fellow citizens.''
For decades, even while nurturing close ties with the United States, Canadians have often chosen a different path - establishing universal health care, maintaining ties with Cuba, imposing tough gun control laws. Two current Canadian initiatives, to decriminalize marijuana and legalize same-sex marriage, have pleased many liberals in the United States and irked conservatives.
New York executive Daniel Hanley, 31, was arranging a move for himself and his partner, Tony, long before the Canadian announcement about same-sex marriage. But the timing delights him; he and Tony now hope to marry in front of their families after they emigrate to British Columbia.
``Canada has an opportunity to define itself as a leader,'' Hanley said. ``In some ways, it's now closer to American ideals than America is.''
Though many gay American couples are now marrying in Canada, virtually all return home, hoping court rulings will lead to official recognition of their unions.
Hanley's situation is different because Tony - a Southeast Asian - is not a U.S. citizen. The men worried that Tony could be forced to leave the United States after his student visa expires in two years: They were elated when Canada's immigration agency said they could move there as partners.
Hanley, who works for a Fortune 500 company in Manhattan, doesn't know how the move will affect his career.
``It's a challenge, it's scary,'' he said. ``We'll have to drop everything we know here, go up there and figure it out.''
Thomas Hodges, a computer systems major at Georgia State University, said his dismay with American politics started him thinking last year about going abroad. He recently wrote an article in a campus journal titled, ``Why I Am Moving To Canada.''
``I'm thinking about Toronto, though I hear it's cold up there,'' Hodges, a lifelong Southerner, said in a telephone interview.
Hodges, 21, complained about a ``neo-conservative shift'' in the United States and praised Canada's approach to health care and education.
``The U.S. educational system is unfair - you have to live in certain areas to go to good schools,'' he said.
Rene Mercier, spokesman for Canada's immigration department, said any upsurge in U.S.-to-Canada immigration based on current political developments won't be detectable for a few years, because of the time required to process residency applications.
During the Vietnam War, U.S. emigration to Canada surged as thousands of young men, often accompanied by wives or girlfriends, moved to avoid the draft. But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa - the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.
Mollie Ingebrand, 34, said she has felt an affinity for Canada for many years, fueled partly by respect for its health care system. Her doubts about the United States go back even further, to a childhood spent with liberal parents in a relatively conservative part of Ohio.
``In school I was always told this is the best country on earth, and everyone else wants to be American, and that never really rang true to me,'' she said. ``As I got older, it occurred to me there were other choices.''
Her husband, George, 44, has spent little time in Canada, but said it seems to offer a more relaxed, less competitive way of life. He has no qualms about leaving his law practice and selling the family's upscale home in Minneapolis.
``I don't idealize Canada the way my wife does, but I'm ready for an adventure,'' he said. ``I don't know what I'm going to be facing. That's what I'm reveling in.''
The Ingebrands have completed the first batch of paperwork to apply for Canadian residency, hoping their talents and finances compensate for lack of specific job offers. As Minnesotans, they look forward to Vancouver's wet but mild climate: ``Green all year, no mosquitos,'' Mollie said.
At Georgia State, Hodges said some conservative schoolmates have challenged his proposed move to Canada, saying he would be abandoning his homeland.
Conversely, Mollie Ingebrand says some of her friends - people who share her left-of-center views - argue that she should stay at home to battle for changes here.
``I've been there and done that,'' Molly said. ``I don't want to stay and fight anymore. I can have that bittersweet love for my country from somewhere else.''
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
I am an American, not a Canadian. I would rather see America fix itself. If America keeps getting more conservative, then you will have a country where there is no middle class, just the rich and the poor. But that is what republicans want. Cheap desperate labor that has no better option. I love the USA, and I want to bring back someone like JFK!
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Ditto what the other John said. If we were to leave, then the right would win. Anyway, there are too many moose, too many mosquitoes, abd too few people in Canada.
I like Canadians, though. Some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
I must admit that the thought has crossed my mind from time to time in the last 3 years. I agree with John S. I do love this country-even worn a uniform to prove that, but I am very upset by what those people in Washington are doing. Citizens of this country struggled for the past 200+ years to create a society that anything is possible-i.e. social mobility. Everyone basically lived for the "American Dream,"-a house, two-car garage, etc. The present administration has been trying to turn back the clock to all the achievements made where the "American Dream" is just that-a dream with absolutely no chance of becoming an realitiy. The average person has to work twice as hard just to feed the family-IF they can find work at all. People should really look back in history-about 100 years ago. Men, women, and CHILDREN worked in factories 12 hours a day for peanuts. Then they had to deal with slum lords who took most of that pay for a room with nothing-running water was concidered a luxury. I for one, do not want to go back to that time.
It really bothers me-this, "America-Love it or leave it" attitude that some people have. If that has always been the case, then blacks and women still wouldn't have the vote as well as people without property. It is because of people who have disagreed with the status quo that change is able to take place. One of things that Americans hold near and dear is the freedom of speech "and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" granted to us by the First Admendment of the Constitution. So, when we exersize our rights granted to us by Constitution, we are called "UnAmerican" or "Unpatriot" and if that leads to restrictions on our rights and this country will be a very dangerous place and I will deffenantly move-but until then, I will excersize my right to speak out against our government. Hopefully, things will change for the better.
Cat
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Opviously, i can't really comment being a Brit (or as i like to believe, Irishman) in the U.K. But i spose you can draw parallels.
I don't personally like living under a right-wing government (although i should be used to it, it's been this way my whole life basically) but until it actually starts to affect my liberty (because for the most part you can just ignore laws etc. and even if a center-left party was in power, i'd probably still have to work for the same companies and buy the same products), i'll probably stay.
But where am i going to go? My first choice would probably be Nederland but they definitely don't want any more immigrants, so my unthought-out plan at the moment is to move to België or maybe look into how Scandinavia is run and what life is like there.
But that's only in an extreme. Basically, i don't feel much affinity with the U.K. and living here i see as fairly arbitrary - although i spose speaking the language helps ::) So if things start to get a bit dodgy here, i won't hesitate that much to leave.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
People should really look back in history-about 100 years ago. Men, women, and CHILDREN worked in factories 12 hours a day for peanuts.
End Quote
This does scare me. Bush already is pushing to end overtime laws. No more time and a half overtime if Bush gets his way. I can see the day where they force 12 hour days. Maybe Bush will even come up with a nice name for it like "Compassionate Workplace".
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
I am surprised all American leftists, die hard ones, don't do this. And I know the reaction of many pro-American people and conservatives: Good riddance!
Michael Moore the filmmaker should be living up in Canada! Move there leftists, stay there!
Opinions???
End Quote
A lot of my peers went to Canada during the Vietnam War to avoid the draft. I sayed here and fought, and have no intention of moving now - I'll fight again. I can understand the frustration some people feel over the direction this country is taking, but the pendulum will swing back, and the neocons will be sent to the dustbin of history which they so richly deserve.
And Chino, who ever you are (another psudonem) don't you dare challenge either my patriotism or my loyalty. Your desire for "leftists" to leave suggests that you really can't deal with the leftist analysis. Sorry dude, but this is one leftist that ain't going nowhere.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
To shorten Cat's reply, lots of people have sacrificed lots os sweat and blood to get what we now have. It would be, to my mind, the ultimate disrespect to simply abandon the country to a bunch of neo-fascists. Not me, not now, no how. Gurley Flynn, Big Bill, Joe Hill, etc.... The fight goes on, and in the end, we will win.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
This does scare me. Bush already is pushing to end overtime laws. No more time and a half overtime if Bush gets his way. I can see the day where they force 12 hour days. Maybe Bush will even come up with a nice name for it like "Compassionate Workplace".
End Quote
Oh, come on John, He is a "compassionate conservative". He shows compassion for his good buddies and political contributers. ;) As to the rest of us, he could care less :'(
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Conservatives in the USA are not true conservatives.
The true conservative is more of a Libertarian.
They can object to abortion, homosexuality, but they shouldn't make laws against it for consenting adults.
The flat tax, eliminating the National Endowment for The Arts, that is a conservative ideal, or rather two of them.
The right wants Christianity taught in the public schools. Not all of them mind you.
Well, how would they feel about Islam being taught in the public schools? They would freak out!
I think the right believes in Jesus Christ, just as long as all pictures of him look like a man with blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes.
Notice how they usually don't like him to look like a swarthy Jewish man?
Hypocrites. Nothing wrong with blonde hair, blue eyes mind you. I have both, heh-heh.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
I voted for Dubya.
Bush I mean.
I won't do it again. I got tired, or suffered from Clinton burn out.
Even though most Democrats are wussies, they are a little better than the Republicans.
The thought of those SOBS in the GOP ending overtime makes me, well, very angry. I wanna wring their greedy necks.
I've learned my lesson. Though I hate the Political Correctness of the left too.
Don Carlos, where were you born? Fought in Vietnam? I figured you'd be a conciouensous objector...pardon my bad spelling.
Many folks who are Marxists like you aren't big on American patriotism, sorry but it's true, for the most part.
Sometimes I am amazed more leftists don't move to Canada or France.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
What is patriotism? You say it is love for our country. Well, how can you tell if someone loves their country? You say you should love your country by condoning (can't spell, sorry) its actions. I don't agree with what we are doing, yet according to some, I should kiss the flag everytime we invade.
I think I'm doing my duty as a patriotic American by pushing to make this country a better place (e.g. One that provides healthcare to all and is less invasion-happy.)
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
No. Not at all >:(
I was born in America and so were my ancestors back to the 1600s! When blacks and women were being discriminated against in the past, they marched and held rallys. They convinced people of thier beliefs and rights! If you have a problem with this country I offer you two solutions:
1. Be smart and find other like minded individuals and start a petition down in D.C. If your cause is right and the majority of U.S. citizens agree with it, what you want will happen
2. Your other option is leave! Leave and NEVER come back! America will be better with out worthless cowards such as yourself!
I for one will die for my country if I have to. When I pledged my allegience to the flag, I really did pledge my alliegence! I am an Eagle Scout in the BSA and everything! America is the best country in the world hands down! and if you happen to disagree, see Number 1. or see Number 2. and get out of my country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Ok.
As long as this topic doesn't inspire people to feel very passionately about their positions.
Or something to that there effect.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
When I pledged my allegience to the flag, I really did pledge my alliegence!
End Quote
I was wondering if you could clear something up for me on that one: Is pledging allegience to the flag manditory, like law or something? I mean, what would happen if you wouldn't do it - like in school for instance?
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
I was wondering if you could clear something up for me on that one: Is pledging allegience to the flag manditory, like law or something? I mean, what would happen if you wouldn't do it - like in school for instance?
End Quote
Nothing. It is not illegal to refuse to pledge your allegiance. Althought I think it would make the kid look bad.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Why is that?
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
USA! USA!
I feel like an audience member of the film Rocky IV.
Heh-heh.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
Why is that?
End Quote
Because he or she would be the only one who wasn't standing up, pledging the flag. Everyone would assume they were an America-hating commie.
I didn't pledge to the flag from the start of the war in Iraq until school was let out.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Get them dope smokin' slackers out of here! Ha! Wait until that Puppeteer starts collecting those canadian quarters in her donation basket, the US of A will look a little better then!
Seriously, Vancouver is not any more laid back than any other major western metropolis, it's all in the manner in which you wish to live. I can see the young homo-exec and his partner moving, there is a tangible reason for that. Heads up to the people interested, you want to succeed in cananda you have to work hard, just like the US.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
Because he or she would be the only one who wasn't standing up, pledging the flag. Everyone would assume they were an America-hating commie.
I didn't pledge to the flag from the start of the war in Iraq until school was let out.
End Quote
There's something not right about when you're 'the only one' not doing something and that's automatically seen as bad.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
There's something not right about when you're 'the only one' not doing something and that's automatically seen as bad.
End Quote
Read the "School Yard Teasing" thread. Anything that makes you different leaves you wide open....
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Yus. I did go to state schools (at least for part of the time), i know the reality of things. But it's still a bad sign.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
One thing though...
Canada has areas where junkies can shoot up, no problem.
Government should not be providing areas for junkies to shoot up.
Having designated areas where people can smoke hash like they have in areas in Europe is one thing. Pot and hash aren't the same as needles and heroin or whatever else these fools are shooting into their veins, the fools.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
I dunno. I got the typical lefty-liberal stance on this one:
They're going to do it anyway, so may as well try and make it safe as possible.
I also approve of the pharmacy/chemist places here locally that provide free needle-exchange ;D
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
I dunno. I got the typical lefty-liberal stance on this one:
They're going to do it anyway, so may as well try and make it safe as possible.
I also approve of the pharmacy/chemist places here locally that provide free needle-exchange ;D
End Quote
I disagree with the places for needles and to shoot up. I think what government should do is subsidize health care so junkies can get off the drugs. I would not give them a place to do drugs. That is too much like endorsing drugs or saying it is not "too dangerous". Think about it, my state has a law which states it is illegal ($70 fine) to drive without a seatbelt, but if they said it was okay to shoot up, that would tell me "the drugs aren't that harmful".
Modified to add: You said they are going to do it anyways, so might as well make it safe. I would rather look at what in their lives caused them to turn to drugs as relief and then kill the root cause.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
Don Carlos, where were you born? Fought in Vietnam? I figured you'd be a conciouensous objector...pardon my bad spelling.
Many folks who are Marxists like you aren't big on American patriotism, sorry but it's true, for the most part.
End Quote
I was born in Patterson N.J if that really matters and I did NOT fight in Vietnam, but I did fight against that stupid war. I was (am) a conscienscious objector, for all that matters.
As a matter of fact, I would say that the Marxists I know are MUCH more patriotic, MUCH more dedicated to the values of the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address than conservatives, who see the U.S. as a ride to riches, rather than as a dedication to principles, like equality and justice. You should read about what the founders had in mind when they talked about "the commonwealth". They were flawed human beings, like us, no better, no worse, but they managed to set up some lofty ideals that we Marxist would like to see realized.
And welcome back zippo/ringer. Just don't get personal.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Opviously, i agree, first and foremost, with prevention/cure measures - but at the end of the day (and to begin with) people are still going to 'shoot up' so you may as well provide them with a safe place to do it. If you are concerned whether people are doing drugs or not then it follows logically you should be concerned how they do the drugs; whether they are doing them with clean needles in a good environment etc.
Subject: Re: Americans Leaving USA For Canada!
Quoting:
1. Be smart and find other like minded individuals and start a petition down in D.C. If your cause is right and the majority of U.S. citizens agree with it, what you want will happen
2. Your other option is leave! Leave and NEVER come back! America will be better with out worthless cowards such as yourself!
End Quote
1) "Educating and organizing is very good, thats true, but sometimes you just can't get along without thte good old wooden shoe" - an old Wobbly saying. You are implying that democracy always works, and the majority gets what it wants. Yeah, right, like in the 2000 election. I just want to point out that Gore got the majority of the popular vote, and it isn't the first time the the more popular candidate lost the election, although it was probably the most corrupt election in our history. I remember watching the returns and hearing that Gore won in Florida based on exit polls. Then the "Jews for Buchanan", the results of the butterfly ballots, came into play. And I'm not taking about hanging cards.
2) I agree that running away from problems is not an answer to anything. Stay and fight for what you believe, even though the odds are staked against you.