Quoting:

Don't you people realize that if you go back to your old ways and cease to believe in God and pray and worship him, you will only bring cursings for America! In America's early days, people were very close to God, and America was very blessed. Then as people started to forget (20th century) more wars happened, disasters left and right!

End Quote

This implies that America is more vulnerable to attack when people don't worship God.

My brother brought up an interesting point on this:

If the above is true, and you accept that Britain is far less Christian and devout than the States, wouldn't that mean Britain was more prone to September-11th style attacks than the United States?

Quoting:


This implies that America is more vulnerable to attack when people don't worship God.

My brother brought up an interesting point on this:

If the above is true, and you accept that Britain is far less Christian and devout than the States, wouldn't that mean Britain was more prone to September-11th style attacks than the United States?
End Quote

Not if you believe that America is a land choice over all others. And a country set up by God himself. Many Americans that I know believe that The Constitution is a divenely inspired doucument. As well as many of the earlier Presidents being led by God. Columbus himself felt that he was led to America by Heavenly inspiration. Certainly America has been blessed. In a little over 200 years we have become the most powerful country in the world!

Quoting:
Erm...i'm confused.  Are you saying Britain is more prone or America?
End Quote

I think he's saying that Britain should have been more prone to attacks instead of America because of a lack of religion.  Personally I didn't see much of a difference in religiousness while I was visiting the UK, but then again, I wasn't really arguing religion with the locals either ;)

Quoting:
When the Towers fell down, everyone was saddened. They sought help and solace. And most importantly they remembered God. People started going to church again and prayers were happening all over. Now 2 years later and people have forgotten again. Don't you people realize that if you go back to your old ways and cease to believe in God and pray and worship him, you will only bring cursings for America! In America's early days, people were very close to God, and America was very blessed. Then as people started to forget (20th century) more wars happened, disasters left and right! George Washington prayed for guidance during the American Revolution. I just don't understand why there are so many Atheiests!? How can you not believe in something. How could you think you are an accident? How could you think that when you die that is it???
End Quote

This sounds like one of those holier than thou TV evangalists who blamed 9-11 on gays, liberals, and the left in general.  God's retribution?  So maybe we should all become Islamic fundamentalists.  

And by the way, that painting of G. Washington is not historiacally accurate.  Washington was a diest.  

And as to "how can you...", all I can say is that I personally don't need pie in the sky (when I die - that's a lie - from an old Wobbly song by Joe Hill).  I understand that some people need religion to give their lives meaning.  Mine has meaning without religion.  I (mostly) made myself and chose not to share the cedit with some fictional supernatural being.

Quoting:
Not if you believe that America is a land choice over all others. And a country set up by God himself. Many Americans that I know believe that The Constitution is a divenely inspired doucument. As well as many of the earlier Presidents being led by God. Columbus himself felt that he was led to America by Heavenly inspiration. Certainly America has been blessed. In a little over 200 years we have become the most powerful country in the world!
End Quote

Scary!
I'm sure there are plenty of fundamentalists around the world who would contest that, in fact, their country is the chosen of God.

Quoting:

Scary!
I'm sure there are plenty of fundamentalists around the world who would contest that, in fact, their country is the chosen of God.
End Quote

...And that is why I think religions suck. :-X Oops, did I just type that? Well, in my defense, they do cause wars.

Sorry to have gotten off topic a bit. These were the first thoughts outta my noggin'.

Quoting:


This implies that America is more vulnerable to attack when people don't worship God.
End Quote

That's the muslim extremists' thinking. We're vulnerable because we don't believe in Allah. Either way, it's an act of God.

Quoting:


...And that is why I think religions suck.

End Quote

Hairspray ;D i admire you for coming out with such an outspoken opinion :) .  In my experience, moderators are a bit slow to offer opinions cos they don't want to seem too biased.  Nice one :P ;D

Quoting:


...And that is why I think religions suck. :-X Oops, did I just type that? Well, in my defense, they do cause wars.

Sorry to have gotten off topic a bit. These were the first thoughts outta my noggin'.
End Quote

Ditto.  Organized religion sucks.

Quoting:

As far as religion goes, I'm really kind of shocked that it's still so prevalent.  You woulda thunk by now everyone would have relized it was developed for the control of budding societies and to provide answers to questions we now know better of.

When I die?  I feed some plants, insects, and small spineless creatures, that's enough for me.

End Quote

This is pretty much the consensus among my mates.  I'm a bit hesitant about what you go on to say, but in some ways i agree.

Quoting:
Don't tell me that you are happy with one life? You mean to tell me that I, a younger man, fear death more than you do?

I'm looking for the pearly gates! Come on, Saint Mary McGee McCalahan, pray for me!
End Quote

If you find those pearly gates, please give me a call. ;)

Quoting:

If you find those pearly gates, please give me a call. ;)
End Quote

I'll put in a good word for you.

Quoting:
The great return to religion after the 9-11 disaster was discoutned pretty quickly as never really happening.  I imagine there was a lot of churching going on for a couple of weeks but it ended pretty quickly.

As far as religion goes, I'm really kind of shocked that it's still so prevalent.  You woulda thunk by now everyone would have relized it was developed for the control of budding societies and to provide answers to questions we now know better of.

When I die?  I feed some plants, insects, and small spineless creatures, that's enough for me.

By the way, christian ethics are a great thing, I can't argue with much of them and have done alot to help shape what is good in our society.  

End Quote

Well then, I thought this post was starting to die but now at 6:22 it is at the top! Now I sure am glad that there is at least one person on this board who believes in at least an afterlife: ( John Harvey)
How in the world can you think that once your dead that is it. Black, darkness, no mind, no thinking?? I suppose it isn't your fault that you don't believe in religion. Most religion out there is false. Man-made. No real power or authority to act in god's name. However, there is one true religion. The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I know without a doubt in my mind, with every cell in my body that this church and religion is true. My religion believes that, after all the original apostles were dead, the Jesus Christ's original church ended. The light of Christ was removed from the face of the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the Lord; and they shall wander from sea to sea, from north even to the east; they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
                         Amos 8:11-12

Then in the 1800s, Christ's true church once again returned to the World:

" Behold, I will reveal unto you the priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the Prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord."
                                        Malachi 4:5-6
" Therefore I say unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."
                                        St. Matthew 21:43

Christ's true church came through the Prophet Joseph Smith,
and has remained here ever since being restored, and will never leave the world.

The best way my whole church and my beliefs can best be explained right here:
                           http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,955-1,00.html

Please go here and read through the sight :)


                               

Quoting:
How in the world can you think that once you're dead that is it. Black, darkness, no mind, no thinking??
End Quote

Beats me how you can think there's anything else: after all, we can't find it... we can't visit it... we can't even detect it in any way.  What difference is there to us, now whether it exists or not?  Surely it's obvious that it's a simple invention of mankind to give priestly types power over the rest of us?

Quoting:
Most religion out there is false. Man-made. No real power or authority to act in god's name.
End Quote

Nearly right, there...

Quoting:
However, there is one true religion.
End Quote

That's what they all say, though: ISTM that although it's a logical non sequitur the thought that "if all except one of them *must* be wrong... then surely all of them must be wrong", it has a certain appeal over the "then surely *my* one is right"

This isn't really the forum for religious debates, though - if you really want to try converting the heathen, have a go here

Phil

Quoting:


Well then, I thought this post was starting to die but now at 6:22 it is at the top! Now I sure am glad that there is at least one person on this board who believes in at least an afterlife: ( John Harvey)
How in the world can you think that once your dead that is it. Black, darkness, no mind, no thinking?? I suppose it isn't your fault that you don't believe in religion. Most religion out there is false. Man-made. No real power or authority to act in god's name. However, there is one true religion. The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I know without a doubt in my mind, with every cell in my body that this church and religion is true. My religion believes that, after all the original apostles were dead, the Jesus Christ's original church ended. The light of Christ was removed from the face of the earth:

End Quote

You are right that most religions are man-made, in fact, ALL religions are and yours is no exception. I did my honor's thesis on utopian societies in the 1830s-40s and learned a few things about Joseph Smith. He had a great imagination and used it in telling stories. When he "found" the Book of Mormon, the book was originally stone, then metallic and finally became golden. The book contained chapters of the King James version of the Bible, as well as occasional bits of Shakespeare and Indian legends. It originally had many grammatical errors, so several thousand corrections have been made since it was first published. You can find all this information in Freedom's Ferment by Alice Felt Tyler.


*Modified to add: I mean you or your religion no disrespect. I am just stating historical facts.


Cat

Quoting:

When he "found" the Book of Mormon, the book was originally stone, then metallic and finally became golden.
Cat
End Quote

ROFL! I guess it was never "good enough"?

Quoting:


ROFL! I guess it was never "good enough"?
End Quote

John. I appreciate your humor, but this is someone's religion we are talking about.  We should take it seriously, I think, and not make jokes.  Sex, politics, current events etc, are, I think, fair game for humor, but I think we should show more respect for people's religious beliefs, regardless of what we thinki of them.  Your comment is funny though  ;D

Quoting:


John. I appreciate your humor, but this is someone's religion we are talking about.  We should take it seriously, I think, and not make jokes.  Sex, politics, current events etc, are, I think, fair game for humor, but I think we should show more respect for people's religious beliefs, regardless of what we thinki of them.  Your comment is funny though  ;D
End Quote

Somehow, if the 10 commandments Moses brought from the mountain turned from "stone to metallic to golden", it would either show someone trying to "better" the story, or it would be a true divine intervention.

But now I am off to my scientology meeting.  ;)

Quoting:


Well then, I thought this post was starting to die but now at 6:22 it is at the top! Now I sure am glad that there is at least one person on this board who believes in at least an afterlife: ( John Harvey)
End Quote

I may follow the Catholic religion, and believe in an afterlife, but I also think Pagans have the same chance I do of reaching the here-after. I believe that all religions are roads to Heaven (belief in god(s) is not necessary, you only need a set of beliefs/values to follow).

If you are a good man/woman/other, then the gates of Heaven are open to you (sez me!). So Athiests, as long as you are good people, if I'm right (and I hope I am), you'll still get to go to the everlasting party.

Drinks all around! Put it on Jesus' tab!

Quoting:

I may follow the Catholic religion, and believe in an afterlife, but I also think Pagans have the same chance I do of reaching the here-after. I believe that all religions are roads to Heaven (belief in god(s) is not necessary, you only need a set of beliefs/values to follow).

If you are a good man/woman/other, then the gates of Heaven are open to you (sez me!). So Athiests, as long as you are good people, if I'm right (and I hope I am), you'll still get to go to the everlasting party.

Drinks all around! Put it on Jesus' tab!
End Quote

That is a very healthy and spiritually just value system to your  beliefs John.  If more religious people accepted that approach perhaps I could embrace religion.  
Thank you,

Quoting:

I may follow the Catholic religion, and believe in an afterlife, but I also think Pagans have the same chance I do of reaching the here-after. I believe that all religions are roads to Heaven (belief in god(s) is not necessary, you only need a set of beliefs/values to follow).

If you are a good man/woman/other, then the gates of Heaven are open to you (sez me!). So Athiests, as long as you are good people, if I'm right (and I hope I am), you'll still get to go to the everlasting party.

Drinks all around! Put it on Jesus' tab!
End Quote

I believe that too. I have said many times that I am a Pagan and try to live by the Wicca "creed"-"Do what you will, harm none." I also believe in the "three-fold rule"-"Whatever you do, will come back to you three-fold." If you do something good, you get it back three times. If you do something not-so-good, you get that back three times, too. But, I also know that I am human and I am not perfect. So, I know that I have harmed people (we all have) but I do try not to.

I also believe in the "here-after." What exactly that is, I can't say. I don't remember being there. I also believe in reincarnation.



Cat

Quoting:

Drinks all around! Put it on Jesus' tab!
End Quote

Make mine a Bacarrdi Select, with a splash of water, unless J.C. can suggest something better  ;D

Quoting:

That is a very healthy and spiritually just value system to your  beliefs John.  If more religious people accepted that approach perhaps I could embrace religion.  
Thank you,
End Quote

The point that I was trying to make (way) above is that if you need religion to help you live a moral and just life, that's fine.  If it gives you solace, that's good.  I respect people who are committed to their religious beliefs, which are certainly beyond the range of scientific or intellectual scrutiny.  In all honesty thought, I must add that I have very little patience with hypocracy (religious or otherwise), intolerance, or the "holier than thou" attitude some religious people demonstrate, like the local preacher's wife who told Cat (a pagan) "we can change that".  How F... arrogant.  *bleep* are one thing, but that crossed the line.

Quoting:

I may follow the Catholic religion, and believe in an afterlife, but I also think Pagans have the same chance I do of reaching the here-after. I believe that all religions are roads to Heaven (belief in god(s) is not necessary, you only need a set of beliefs/values to follow).

If you are a good man/woman/other, then the gates of Heaven are open to you (sez me!). So Athiests, as long as you are good people, if I'm right (and I hope I am), you'll still get to go to the everlasting party.

Drinks all around! Put it on Jesus' tab!
End Quote

Heh.  Let me share a joke with you i heard from a Catholic...

A Jewish man was being shown around Heaven (can't remember some of the steps sorry :-/) and after a while they come to a brick box and he asks 'What`s that?' and the other man whispered 'That`s for the Catholics: They think they're the only ones here.' ;D

Quoting:


Heh.  Let me share a joke with you i heard from a Catholic...

A Jewish man was being shown around Heaven (can't remember some of the steps sorry :-/) and after a while they come to a brick box and he asks 'What`s that?' and the other man whispered 'That`s for the Catholics: They think they're the only ones here.' ;D


End Quote

LOL, but not true.  As it was explianed to me as a kid, Catholics do believe that those of other religions can get in, they just have to try harder (this was some company's slogan for a while, can't remember which).

Quoting:


You are right that most religions are man-made, in fact, ALL religions are and yours is no exception. I did my honor's thesis on utopian societies in the 1830s-40s and learned a few things about Joseph Smith. He had a great imagination and used it in telling stories. When he "found" the Book of Mormon, the book was originally stone, then metallic and finally became golden. The book contained chapters of the King James version of the Bible, as well as occasional bits of Shakespeare and Indian legends. It originally had many grammatical errors, so several thousand corrections have been made since it was first published. You can find all this information in Freedom's Ferment by Alice Felt Tyler.


*Modified to add: I mean you or your religion no disrespect. I am just stating historical facts.


Cat
End Quote

Nor do I mean any offense to you in my reply. I just must reply about what you said was historical fact. Here is a historical fact: There have been numerous groups, publications, and people who go around tearing down other people's religions. They say things about the Mormon truth that is completely false. If you seek historical facts you really should ask people that really know. Like I am a member of the Mormon church, thus before saying things that Alice Felt Tyler says are true, you should be going straight to the source. Ask an actual Mormon such as myself, or go to that website I told you about and seek answers there.
I'm sorry but when people try to tell you about your own religion that is just wrong. It isn't your fault Catwoman, you were just misinformed. I'm just setting the facts straight.
Also, No my church does not practice Polygamy. Anyone who says they are a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, yet says they practice plural marriage, has no membership with my church. Anyway, Joseph Smith was of a complete sound mind and did have plates of gold. On these plates were the Book of Mormon and it is published the exact same way today as it ever was! If you want to find out about Joseph Smith please find credible church sources! History books are one man's (or woman's) opinion!

Quoting:


In all honesty thought, I must add that I have very little patience with hypocracy (religious or otherwise), intolerance, or the "holier than thou" attitude some religious people demonstrate, like the local preacher's wife who told Cat (a pagan) "we can change that".  How F... arrogant.  *bleep* are one thing, but that crossed the line.
End Quote

I appreciate your comments Don Carlos, and my name is DizzleJ not Dazzle :D ; but anyway, as far as my church goes, we present our message and beliefs but, if you reject our religion, we don't try to stuff it down your throat. Religion is a belief system, which means it is all based of Faith. If you choose not to believe the way I do, than that is fine, it is your choice. In fact, my church believes in the Principle of Free Agency. This means that when we come to the World we can choose to lead our life anyway we see fit. I have chosen to be as righteous and Christ-like as I can. In the Bible, Jesus talks of man being even as he is. Now, Don Carlos, I'm sure you can't argue with Christ like attributes. I have a long road till I reach perfection, but I am certainly trying my best. I only share my church with others because, I believe it can truly bring people joy and happiness. I mean the more I read the scriptures and feast upon the words of Christ, the more I want to do good and help my fellow man. Well that is all I wanted to say, and thanks Don for respecting my religion earlier. :)

Quoting:

I am a member of the Mormon church
End Quote

Really? I had no idea. In our history book, they had sections about certain groups of people in the US. Mostly it talked about how the Irish, African Americans, German Americans etc. were persecuted.

There was a section on Mormonism. The Mormons were definately not treated very well. I don't remember the exact details of what was done to them, but apparently the law refused to help them. I don't know much about the Mormon faith, but I don't agree with some of what I've heard. I don't question their values, but I do question their view of spirituality. Mormonism tends to mix the concrete and the Spiritual. There are too many "facts" in Mormonism (i.e. Jesus came to the US and prophesied to an advanced civilization that has since disappeared).

The Catholic Church also requires you to believe in such "facts". Mary was ever virgin, even though the Bible said she was a virgin until after the birth of Jesus. I usually take "until after" to mean that it happened afterwards.

I guess what I'm saying is, I may not believe what you believe, but I will not condemn your beliefs. Just don't try to force your religion on anyone else.

Quoting:


I appreciate your comments Don Carlos, and my name is DizzleJ not Dazzle :D ; but anyway, as far as my church goes, we present our message and beliefs but, if you reject our religion, we don't try to stuff it down your throat. Religion is a belief system, which means it is all based of Faith. If you choose not to believe the way I do, than that is fine, it is your choice. In fact, my church believes in the Principle of Free Agency. This means that when we come to the World we can choose to lead our life anyway we see fit. I have chosen to be as righteous and Christ-like as I can. In the Bible, Jesus talks of man being even as he is. Now, Don Carlos, I'm sure you can't argue with Christ like attributes. I have a long road till I reach perfection, but I am certainly trying my best. I only share my church with others because, I believe it can truly bring people joy and happiness. I mean the more I read the scriptures and feast upon the words of Christ, the more I want to do good and help my fellow man. Well that is all I wanted to say, and thanks Don for respecting my religion earlier. :)
End Quote

Sorry for the misspelling - I ment no disrespect or sarcasm.

Fidel, and other Marxist, like Herbert Hapthecker (and myself) along with the Catholic theologens of Liberation theology, have said that when true Christians come to realize that socialism (not Soviet or Chinese "Communism") is the modern expression of Christ's message, the revolution will become invevitable.  If you think about Christ's message, universal love for our fellows, universal care for each other, good will toward all, PEACE, forgiveness, I think you will have to agree with the Chilean Bishops who in 1970 said that there was more of Marxism in the Gosples than there was capitalism.  

I have said that I am not religious, but you know, I really don't care HOW one comes to a social conscienes as long as one has one.  I believe that "I am my brother's keeper".  If you also accept that basic truth, we can be allies regardless of our other disagreements.  And in matters of religios faith I have no desire to challenge or debate you.  I respect your religion even thought I am not religious.  Keep your faith (and your ideals) baby.

Quoting:

The Catholic Church also requires you to believe in such "facts". Mary was ever virgin, even though the Bible said she was a virgin until after the birth of Jesus. I usually take "until after" to mean that it happened afterwards.

End Quote

I read somewhere that the word "virgin" as it applied to Mary in Biblical times actually means something different to what it does now, or that the word was mis-translated, and it really meant that she and Joseph were common-law spouses rather than actually married.
However, the idea of Jesus as the son of God can only work through the construct of Immaculate Conception, so I suppose the modern interpretation works better in terms of Christianity.

Quoting:


I read somewhere that the word "virgin" as it applied to Mary in Biblical times actually means something different to what it does now, or that the word was mis-translated, and it really meant that she and Joseph were common-law spouses rather than actually married.
However, the idea of Jesus as the son of God can only work through the construct of Immaculate Conception, so I suppose the modern interpretation works better in terms of Christianity.
End Quote

Good Lord, GR, you mean Joseph and Mary might have bee shacking up?  Living in sin?  Sop why am I getting married?  Oh I know....

Quoting:


Good Lord, GR, you mean Joseph and Mary might have bee shacking up?  Living in sin?  Sop why am I getting married?  Oh I know....
End Quote

:) That's just one interpretation, from some site or article I read on Jesus the man as opposed to Jesus the Saviour.
I also find it interesting that very little of his life is actually documented. Surely he did something for the first twenty-five years or so of his life?

Quoting:


Good Lord, GR, you mean Joseph and Mary might have bee shacking up?  Living in sin?  Sop why am I getting married?  Oh I know....
End Quote

I hope you know why. I gave you the option to back out. You didn't take it so now you are stuck with me-whether you like it or not. (But I sincerely hope that you like it.  ;) :-*)



Cat

Quoting:



I hope you know why. I gave you the option to back out. You didn't take it so now you are stuck with me-whether you like it or not. (But I sincerely hope that you like it.  ;) :-*)



Cat
End Quote

We'll discuss this later, in the...

Quoting:


:) That's just one interpretation, from some site or article I read on Jesus the man as opposed to Jesus the Saviour.
I also find it interesting that very little of his life is actually documented. Surely he did something for the first twenty-five years or so of his life?
End Quote

It's an interpretation I have heard before, but like you, don't remember where.

I'm nor surprised that there is little documentation of his early life.  After all, we're talking about over 2000 years ago, when very few people could write, and we're talking about a carpenter, so who would write about him?  Until he started to make waves, he was just another uninteresting "working stiff".  Who would notice?  Who would care?

Quoting:

(1)If you seek historical facts you really should ask people that really know. Like I am a member of the Mormon church, thus before saying things that Alice Felt Tyler says are true, you should be going straight to the source. Ask an actual Mormon such as myself, or go to that website I told you about and seek answers there.

(2)I'm sorry but when people try to tell you about your own religion that is just wrong. It isn't your fault Catwoman, you were just misinformed. I'm just setting the facts straight.
Also.

(3) Anyway, Joseph Smith was of a complete sound mind and did have plates of gold. On these plates were the Book of Mormon and it is published the exact same way today as it ever was! If you want to find out about Joseph Smith please find credible church sources!

(4)History books are one man's (or woman's) opinion!
End Quote

(1) The problem with this, I think, is fairly self evident.  Since you are a believer, you will express as truth the dogma and "party line" of your beliefs, and you will do so (because it's a matter of faith) regardless of what the historical recond suggests.  Religious beliefs are based on faith, historical analysis is based on the evaluation and interpretation of the historical record.  They are not always compatible.  They opperate on two different levels of "truth".

(2) you are setting "the facts straight" as you have been taught them.  But "facts" are slippery things.  In some cases what purports to be "fact" is mere opinion, or interpretation.  The "facts" Cat sighted are documented throught research into the sources.  The "facts" you assert are your church's revisions.  I'm not sasying that makes them "untrue" for you who are believers.  I could also be accused of believing things that others think "the facts" speak against.  

This is what makes the study of history so interesting.  We not only have to be detectives and unearth "facts", we have to interpret them.  That's what we (mostly) argue about.

(3) As I read her post, Cat never suggested that J. Smith was insane, deranged, or anything of the kind.  She suggested that he had an active imagination.  As to the "alterations" in the Book of Mormon, the point is easilly solved.  Go back to the earliest editions and compare them to more recent ones.  If there are none, you are right.  If there are changes, you are wrong.  Frankly, I don't care one way or another, so this research is up to you.

(4)And are not Church sourses?  All books are the opinions of their writers (fiction excluded, but even there...).  But books written by historians are expected to meet standards of evidence, while religious tracts are not.