Quoting:

I have no problem with women walking away from unwanted pregnancies.

End Quote

You're not naïve enough to think, given the way our society (and reality) is, that that's going to happen often enough to make it fair, right?

Most of the statistics for single fathers are for where the mother has passed on.

And also, men have the better jobs and are more likely to have a job at all.  Women are more likely to need that money.

Quoting:

Hey, in Washington State a man can live with a woman and then he can be forced after the breakup to PAY CHILD SUPPORT ON KIDS THAT AREN'T EVEN HIS!!!

End Quote

I agree, that's taking it too far to say the least.

Quoting:
Why should a man have to support a kid if he doesn't want to?
End Quote

He doesn't, he can run and hide and not pay anything. But that would make him a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Quoting:No alimony, no child support.  Would women wanna pay an ex-husband alimony?  I think not.End Quote

My aunt pays her ex husband child support because he has full custody of the children because she works on the road a lot. And i've never heard her complain because she is helping to take care of her children.

Quoting:No alimony, no child support, abortion rights for women, birth control choices for men and women, savvy?
End Quote

Men and women do have choices when it comes to birth control. But if whatever choice they made fails, then they are both responsible for the outcome.

Quoting:


He doesn't, he can run and hide and not pay anything. But that would make him a pathetic excuse for a human being.

Men and women do have choices when it comes to birth control. But if whatever choice they made fails, then they are both responsible for the outcome.
End Quote

Agreed.

Nothing bugs me more than a person who has a hand in making a new life but isn't man (or woman) enough to see that the new life is taken care of properly.  Childcare is one of those "unshirkable" responsibilities.

Quoting:
Oh yeah, and Bill Maher is an idiot.
End Quote

Heh! Heh! I don't know who Bill Maher is, but what I've heard on the boards he seems 'verbally irresponsible' at best.

As for the topic, I've got to think about this. Men become whipped when they pay out alimony. I believe in life that everything has a consequence. To avoid the consequence is not learning your life's lessons. If someone avoids it once, what's to say that he/she is not going to avoid them again (and in some people's cases again and again)?

As for Hoeveel's disgust of Homosexuals  well, joking or not (sometimes I can't tell on the boards) I think that was wrong. How are they threatening your masculinity? My girlfriend's cousin is homosexual, met him and his partner and they were very nice people. He didn't threaten me in any way whatsoever. We have to treat people as people, not as a gender, religion or racial stereotype.

I have a girlfriend that nags me, the difference between me being a puss and a man is that I communicate when she's said enough. I am always in control but I am also fair and reasonable, combining the two could mean that you may not need to pay alimony or child support in the first place.

There, I'm finished.  :)

Quoting:


The men are all wussies, or louses, or creeps, predators, dead beat dads, and stupid.  The women are always putting the men in their place like the clods that they are.

End Quote

Cat told me to respond to this  ;) although once again, I'll keep my first thoughts to myself.

There are those (like poet Robert Bly) who sort of believe this, and blame it on the disappearance of older men/younger men relationships, like uncle/nephew, grandfather/grandson etc. and rites of passage from adolecents to adult.  Basically, older men are no longer teaching boys how to be men, so they look for role models elsewhere, like the movies - Rambo.

From what you wrote, it sounds like your role models are +/- the same sort, and seem to advocate the same kind of "manliness" they display.  I, for one, don't buy it.  I once dated a woman who told me that she was impressed with me because I wasn't afraid to show my feminine side.  She found it sexy and truely masculine.  Men (and women) are complex creatures, not Playboy's cardboard cutout characitures.  Both sexes have the full range of emotions and both need to develop them to be fully human.

As to your quote, a "deadbeat dad" is one who skips out on the child support.

As to stupid, I can explain that.  Just before the creation, God called Adam and Eve to him and said he had one of each of 2 body parts, and showed them the first.  "What's it for?" Adam asked.  God said it lets you pee standing up.  Adam pleaded for it, God turned to Eve, who shrugges, so God gave it to Adam, who ran off happily debarking trees and writing  his name in the sand with his new part.  Then he gave the second one to Eve, who asked "What's it called?".  "Brains" was the reply.  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Quoting:I don't know who Bill Maher is, but what I've heard on the boards he seems 'verbally irresponsible' at best.End Quote

thats the understatement of the decade.

After all, his "verbal irrisponsibility" is what got him fired by ABC.

Quoting:


(1) I have a girlfriend that nags me, the difference between me being a 'pussy' and a man is that I communicate when she's said enough.
(2) I am always in control but I am also fair and reasonable, combining the two could mean that you may not need to pay alimony or child support in the first place.

There, I'm finished.  :)
End Quote

(1) They ALL do that sometimes.  Depending on the situation, I ignore her or tell her the discussion is closed for now, time for bed. ( ;))

(2) I hope you mean "in control" of yourself.  That is always good.  Being in control of others, for me at least, is not good in personal relationships, which should be based on mutual respect and a sharing of power (although in a very few cases, domination can be fun  ;) - by mutual consent)

Quoting:

(1) They ALL do that sometimes.  Depending on the situation, I ignore her or tell her the discussion is closed for now, time for bed. ( ;))

(2) I hope you mean "in control" of yourself.  That is always good.  Being in control of others, for me at least, is not good in personal relationships, which should be based on mutual respect and a sharing of power (although in a very few cases, domination can be fun  ;) - by mutual consent)
End Quote

Yeah I mean in control of myself, what I think and what I do. I also have to think about her 11 year old son (not 'created' by me). I'm not too sure how well I'm doing with him. She convinces me I'm doing fine so I accept it.

As for domination, I think my girl's idea of bondage is tying me to the sink! I don't like the idea of domination for that thought alone ;)

Quoting:


As for domination, I think my girl's idea of bondage is tying me to the sink! I don't like the idea of domination for that thought alone ;)
End Quote

To do the dishes, right? Or..... ;)

Quoting:
Seems you boys are whipped.

Men should not be forced by government to pay child support.

He should out of the goodness of his heart.  But if he chooses not to then the kids are the woman's responsiblity.


End Quote

Blerg?  I disagree with you here.  But I'm sure there are some single moms out there who are more than willing to chew you out for this one so I won't even bother.

Quoting:


As is birth control.  If the man won't use birth control the woman needs to say, nope, we are not having sex then.

Birth control is the woman's responsibility since she is the one who get pregnant.End Quote

So the guy can just plant his seed and vamoose, huh?  Oh yeah, that's real manly.  So that's what it's like not to be "whipped".  Let's absolve men of all responsibility for creating life and childbearing and all that.

Quoting:

Women should have abortion rights.  I don't approve of abortion but it is the female's choice.  It is her body, her choice, her responsibility!


End Quote

Ah, something we agree on.

Quoting:
To do the dishes, right? Or..... ;)
End Quote

Ha! Ha! Don I think you've got a great sense of humour.

I'm afraid it would be to do the dishes. Anything else and the taps get in the way!  ;D

Quoting:
And her responsbility to care for the children 100 percent.

If the father doesn't want to be involved.

A guy shouldn't have to run and hide if he wants nothing to do with the kids.  He shouldn't have to pay a dime.

Men make more money cos they work more than women do.
End Quote

It seems to me you are looking for a 'get out of jail free card'. If it gets too hot, get out of there! Not very mature I'm afraid.

Quoting:
Bill Maher is a member of PETA.

Yuck!  I hate that group.

But he is pretty funny.  And he isn't a wussy!


End Quote

Bill Maher has his moments, as does anyone, but politically he fits into the category of the "Limousine Liberals" you mentioned in the other thread.

Quoting:


It seems to me you are looking for a 'get out of jail free card'. If it gets too hot, get out of there! Not very mature I'm afraid.
End Quote

You said it, pilgrim.

And yes, in a lot of companies, the man also gets paid "paternity" leave to care for newborns.  Sorry to say, though, that in this case, biology makes a hell of a lot of difference.  Yes women get their six months off, but YOU try working in a whalesuit 40 hours a week!  (No offense to the ladies, my bad)

Quoting:
Slapping around?

I never said anything about that.  And I am obviously not in favor of it.

Why should a man have to support a kid if he doesn't want to?

I have no problem with women walking away from unwanted pregnancies.

Men should have the same option.  It's only fair.

No alimony, no child support.  Would women wanna pay an ex-husband alimony?  I think not.

Roseanne didn't like having to do it!

Hey, in Washington State a man can live with a woman and then he can be forced after the breakup to PAY CHILD SUPPORT ON KIDS THAT AREN'T EVEN HIS!!!

Man, that's is not right!  But men in Washington State are whipped like you wouldn't believe.

No alimony, no child support, abortion rights for women, birth control choices for men and women, savvy?

:)
End Quote

Quoting:

As for Hoeveel's disgust of Homosexuals and their being stoned well, joking or not (sometimes I can't tell on the boards) I think that was wrong

End Quote

I was using a device to attempt to show zippo how his views look to me from behind my leftist sensibilities.  I apologise if that wasn't clear.

Quoting:

How are they threatening your masculinity?

End Quote

Just the idea that people who don't like gays don't like them because it actually makes them think gay thoughts etc. and weakens their masculinity...or erm...that the reason they don't like gay people is because they are actually gay and resent that others get to do it openly....well something along those lines anyway :-/

Quoting:
Seems you boys are whipped.

End Quote

Hi John Wayne, or should we refer to you as Rambo?

As to this quote, grab her by the hair, drag her into your cave, and try to...

Aww, who cares?  

Men of quality respect women's equality.

Get the picture dude?

If not, I fear you will be crawling into your cave alone.

Quoting:


Ha! Ha! Don I think you've got a great sense of humour.

I'm afraid it would be to do the dishes. Anything else and the taps get in the way!  ;D
End Quote

Thanks.  Taps?  On the sink?  Use your imagination. ;)

Quoting:
Men also aren't gonna make an employer pay for pregnancy leave.

A male employee is more reliable.  A woman one can get knocked up and then be out for six months while she has the kid and then recovers.

Not a plus for an employer.  Hire the man.

End Quote

Actually, (the right to) paternity leave seems to be on the cards in Europe and it's already in effect in 1 or 2 Scandinavian countries.

Quoting:

If you can't take the responsibility, don't do the deed (or if so, with protection). Both men and women must be held accountable. Don't any of you lunkheads (Zippo and Hooevel in particular) care about the child or children that this will affect?

End Quote

Huy, wha?  I was arguing for child support.  ???

Quoting:
Thanks.  Taps?  On the sink?  Use your imagination. ;)
End Quote

LOL.

Quoting:


Huy, wha?  I was arguing for child support.  ???
End Quote

I think it might save you some grief if you use a smiley or something to accompany your irony my friend. It doesn't always carry well in written form. ;)

Quoting:


I think it might save you some grief if you use a smiley or something to accompany your irony my friend. It doesn't always carry well in written form. ;)
End Quote

Quoting:

It's a pity there aren't more men who haven't mastered self-control and mature debate and can still express themselves physically.  

End Quote

Come on, how could that be anything except sardonic?

Quoting:

Alimony?  A few black eyes should sort that one out.

End Quote

Do you think i'd openly say the best way of dealing with women who need financial support from their divorced spouses is to beat the crap into them on here?  And even if that was my opinion, how would that solve anything?  You'd be done for failure to pay alimony and for assault and battery.

I seriously can't see how anyone could've taken that post as my straight-faced opinion; especially i've they've read any of my others.

Quoting:
This has nothing to do with being "pussy-whipped". It's ingrained into society that the best place for children is with their mothers. That's not always the case, and this way of thinking needs to be changed. Don't hold your breath.
End Quote

I have known many of single dads who were "primary constodian" of their kids. I see nothing wrong with it. Sometimes the fathers make better parents, and other times, it is more feasible in terms of housing, schooling, etc.


Cat

Quoting:
Some of the things zippo's said here are amoung the most ignorant statements I've ever seen made on this board.

Nonetheless, I'm a single father (soon to be married) who has just taken full custody of my daughter after almost 13 years of being forced by the government to surrender 18% of my wage to her mother for "child support". This was imposed upon me by the Child Support Agency when they decided that the amount my ex- and I had agreed I pay was "not enough". The amounts you are asked (read - forced) to pay are assessed on one's income from three years previously. This became a problem for me at one point when I was unemployed for six months and the payments fell behind. After I had started working again and was renting and planning for a holiday, I got a letter of demand for almost $2000 that I was told I had to pay within a month. Basically they were going to garnish my wages by 2/3, leaving me with nothing to live on. Fortunately, I wrote my local member who got in touch with the Ministerial representative of the Agency and he negotiated an easier payment structure for me. Remember that my ex- and I had made a mutual agreement on how much she wanted me to contribute to my daughter's upkeep. This apparently wasn't good enough for the "system". The rights of estranged fathers has been in the news here lately as support groups, politicians and the courts attempt to address the discrepancies with the male ex-partner's access to his children after separation, however negotiations are continually being stonewalled by militant women's groups who claim that it's fair because men are generally at fault and are violent against women and children. This is obviously the distorted view of a radical bunch of know-nothings. My relationship broke down because my ex- wanted to be with someone else. It wasn't because I didn't want to be there any more or because I was hitting her. I have full custody of my daughter now because we both agreed that it would be the best thing for her, and because she (my daughter) wanted it that way.

This has nothing to do with being "pussy-whipped". It's ingrained into society that the best place for children is with their mothers. That's not always the case, and this way of thinking needs to be changed. Don't hold your breath.
End Quote

In some ways, your situation is similar to mine, and in some ways not.  

I agree that the entire family court system, at least in the U.S. is tilted toward the mother.  Why, I guess, has to do with inherited sexist attitudes about family, and needs to be changes.  "Krammer vrs Krammer" touched on these issues.  The fact that you now have custody of your daughter indicates  that things are changing, a bit.

I also agree that there needs to be a more reasonable and rational system for figuring out patental obligations for support, one that can easilly vary depending on the situation.  

In line with this thread, though, in my opinion, your willingness to take on that responsibility indicates to me that you are a "real man".  I salute you Hombre.

Quoting:
Why should a man have to support a kid if he doesn't want to?End Quote

Because if a man places himself in a position of fathering a child, then he must assume responsibility for his actions and the consequences of his actions, especially if a child is the end result. It is a matter of responsibility and adulthood.

If a man doesn't want to burden himself with those type of responsibilities, perhaps he should think with the head on his shoulders and make certain to not place himself in that position in the first place.

Simple logic.

Quoting:


Because if a man places himself in a position of fathering a child, then he must assume responsibility for his actions and the consequences of his actions, especially if a child is the end result. It is a matter of responsibility and adulthood.

If a man doesn't want to burden himself with those type of responsibilities, perhaps he should think with the head on his shoulders and make certain to not place himself in that position in the first place.

Simple logic.


End Quote

Well put, and nicely phrased, HS.  

We are agreeing on more and more things.  Are you moving to the left, or I to the right?  Either way, I think it's kind of nice. ;D

Quoting:
OK, now for a woman's perspective on this idea. Zippo is basically saying that it is the woman's responsibility for EVERYTHING-birth control, child support, etc. So, with him, it is basically, "Wham, bam, thank you, Ma'am." (of course with him, I would even doubt that he would even say "thank you.") He has this attitude that women don't need men-Well, I can tell you from a woman's point of view, we don't need men like him-who will not take responsibity for their actions. If a male doesn't want any kids, then why doesn't he get a vasectimy?

So, the woman is suppose to have a job to support the kid, plus pay for child care at the same time. Child care is very expensive. I have a friend who quit her job so she could stay at home with her children because she was basically working only for child care. So, what is a single mother to do? Any ideas? It is a no-win situation. Once the kids are in school, things are a little bit easier. But that is 5 years. With no help from "daddy."  

Because men are "forced" to pay child support makes them whimps? True men are not FORCED into paying it-because they know it is their responsibity but BOYS are FORCED. Boys do not want to accept responsibity for their actions. Boys usually have a tendency to blaiming others. "She did it. It was her fault. I had nothing to do with it." Personally I don't think that boys should have sex. They are not mature enough. (There is a big difference between boys and men-and I am not talking chronologically-I am talking maturity.)

Cat

End Quote

From a general point of view -

You go girl.

Quoting:


Well put, and nicely phrased, HS.  

We are agreeing on more and more things.  Are you moving to the left, or I to the right?  Either way, I think it's kind of nice. ;D
End Quote

Thanks, DC.  :)

Quoting:


From a general point of view -

You go girl.
End Quote

Thanks, HS  ;D  ;D  ;D


Cat

Quoting:
I wish more people could figure out that equality is MUCH better than either male domination (what Zippo seems to want), or female domination (which he calls "p whipped").  Mutual respect works MUCH better, especially if it is grounded in love.  Call me an old sentimentalist - Yeah, I am. ;) ;D
End Quote

You certainly have the right idea, Don. It's not about power struggles or gender insecurity - If you genuinely love your woman, then these pointless thoughts shouldn't even enter your mind.

I would also like to add that I've never before been bent out of shape reading a thread than this one. :D

Quoting:
I think it might save you some grief if you use a smiley or something to accompany your irony my friend. It doesn't always carry well in written form. ;)
End Quote

... and wondered if this statement were not also applicable to Zippo: the views he's showing here are so completely OTT in their self-centered arrogance that maybe he's acting the agent provocateur rather than believing the drivel he's typed.

Personally, I'd think that no "real" man could possibly leave his children unprovided for...

Notice he's also arguing for paying women less, for not even employing them at all - I wouldn't mind betting he'll be back in another thread to recommend cutting of welfare too so that he can pay less tax.  I just can't quite credit that anybody can be so asinine as to believe this kind of rubbish.

Phil

Quoting:
It seems men are more and more whipped these days.

Comic Bill Maher says we are living in  Nation.

Men are wussies who won't stand up to women.  They are emasculted and cowardly.  They let their wvies or girlfriends more or less push them around, the women wear the pants in the relationship.

End Quote

Quoting:


Huy, wha?  I was arguing for child support.  ???
End Quote

Quoting:


... and wondered if this statement were not also applicable to Zippo: the views he's showing here are so completely OTT in their self-centered arrogance that maybe he's acting the agent provocateur rather than believing the drivel he's typed.

End Quote

I don't think so.

Quoting:
Man, that's is not right!  But men in Washington State are whipped like you wouldn't believe.End Quote

Excuse me >:(?  You don't want to find out first hand (followed by a quick 2nd hand) that this statement is not true.
Tom Leykis is lazy raido personality that relays the same tripe over and over, he hasn't had an original idea in years.  Listening to his radio show causes me an embarrassment to human kind, just listen to his ignorant and shallow callers and you can easily judge the depth of his subjects.  
Yes there are injustices in the world, country, and the State of Washington, but these injustices pale in comparison to fathers who don't share in the cost and responsibility of children they sire.  Yes, men should have some say in choice in preganancies, but they should share responcibilties when life is created.  
Zippo, I hope your full of irony and glib, a provacitve raiser of subjects that inspires debate for debate this is.  If not, I suggest you don't walk in my Seattle neighborhood, you may witness first hand a strong male subject of my beautiful state.

Quoting:
See my posts on the "Don Carlos, Are you fit?" thread.  This guy is, IMHO, sick SICK SICK.  Or an agent provacatuer.
End Quote

Yes I read the thread, Don Carlos. I was a bit disturbed by it to be honest.

Quoting:
The Italian European Union president lost his job becuase he said Germans were nationalistic!

Aaa, World War I, World War II.  They started these, right?  I'd say that makes them NATIONALISTIC!
End Quote

Berlusconi hasn't lost his job... nor was it because he said Germans were nationalistic: he described one particular member of the German delegation as reminding him of a concentration camp guard in a film he'd seen.  The Germans are pretty sensitive to this sort of thing, so asked for an apology, and seemed to be placated by the apology they got a couple of days later... then Berlusconi went on television (his own TV station, as it happens) saying it wasn't actually an apology: for someone who owns a TV station and loads of newspapers, he's not the most media-savvy chap in the world...

Personally, Zippo, I really, really hope you are not serious with the microcephalic complete and utter (expletive deleted) twaddle you've been posting in this thread... If you are, then may I suggest a visit to a good psychiatrist

Phil

Quoting:
Seems you boys are whipped.

Men should not be forced by government to pay child support.

He should out of the goodness of his heart.  But if he chooses not to then the kids are the woman's responsiblity.

As is birth control.  If the man won't use birth control the woman needs to say, nope, we are not having sex then.

Birth control is the woman's responsibility since she is the one who get pregnant.

Women should have abortion rights.  I don't approve of abortion but it is the female's choice.  It is her body, her choice, her responsibility!


End Quote

You know zippo, you are quite sexcist. You always seem to think that the man is the superior race,
And that's not true.

Quoting:
See my posts on the "Don Carlos, Are you fit?" thread.  This guy is, IMHO, sick SICK SICK.  Or an agent provacatuer.
End Quote

I saw that, it was pretty gross.

Quoting:
How do you pronounce:

agent provocateur

is it pronounced like ASIAN?
End Quote

What do you mean by that, Zippo? Don't tell me that you are adding racism to the thread as well?  ???

Quoting:


What do you mean by that, Zippo? Don't tell me that you are adding racism to the thread as well?  ???
End Quote

Just ignore it, Bobby. Maybe it will go away.


Cat