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On another note, i'm taking it as a good sign for British media that i didn't know he was black (rather than a sign of my ignorance, of course).  Is he fully black or mixed race?
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I am pretty sure he has some white blood in him, (most African Americans do) Just look at him when he is among Africans at the U.N. Councils.

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But seriously, I thought a lot more of him before the Iraq conflict.

Phil
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I agree with you on that one. I may have voted for him a few years ago but the fact that he caved under the pressure of the White House, he lost a lot of credibility in my eyes.



Cat

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I agree with you on that one. I may have voted for him a few years ago but the fact that he caved under the pressure of the White House, he lost a lot of credibility in my eyes.



Cat
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Isn't the Secretary of State a basturdized employee of the President? I know they are supposed to advise, but once the President makes up his mind, isn't the job of the Secretary of State to fall in line with the White House and do what they are told?

I do not think I ever would have voted for Colin Powil even before Iraq. I think Generals generally do not make good politicians.

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Isn't the Secretary of State a basturdized employee of the President? I know they are supposed to advise, but once the President makes up his mind, isn't the job of the Secretary of State to fall in line with the White House and do what they are told?

I do not think I ever would have voted for Colin Powil even before Iraq. I think Generals generally do not make good politicians.
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Yes, the Sec of St serves at the discretion of the President.  But remember when Nixon orderd Elliot Richardson (the Attorny General) to fire Archibald Cox over the "white house tapes"?  Richardson quit rather than carrying out that order.  Powell should have done the same.

I agree with Cat.  The guy lost all credibility with me.

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Just added commentary: In my opinion, this war is not over until every single one of our soldiers is outta there and back home safe.

Ok. Back on topic.  ;D
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Have to go off topic myself to say that I agree 100%


Cat

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Going with my gut instinct -

I wouldn't vote for him and it has a lot to do with his involvement in this War.

Just added commentary: In my opinion, this war is not over until every single one of our soldiers is outta there and back home safe.

Ok. Back on topic.  ;D
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I had a friend who got back from Iraq a month ago. He was a marine and at the front line. He said that Powel and Bush are lying about the casulties, that they recieved heavy fire, and it was not a cake walk. He also said he is having a hard time living now because he had to shoot and kill people, and he can not get it out of his mind. When he joined the marines he was told it would be 4 years of learning a trade, fixing broken jeeps, then he could go and get a job as a mechanic or use his GI bill to go to college. The 6 months he was in Iraq changed this guy so much. The price for what we did is huge.

Quoting:When he joined the marines he was told it would be 4 years of learning a trade, fixing broken jeeps, then he could go and get a job as a mechanic or use his GI bill to go to college. The 6 months he was in Iraq changed this guy so much. The price for what we did is huge.
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I was trying really hard to stay out of this one, but I can't resist.

John, your statement implies that joining the Marines is assumed to be nothing more than going to college for 4 years learning a trade, then getting an honorable discharge, then living happily ever after.

Thats absurd.

Nobody, I mean nobody joins the military without knowing the potential risk of having to actually serve in a conflict should one arise.  

If joining the military meant nothing more than just learning a trade for 4 years, fixing broken jeeps, then going on to get a job as a mechanic, then everyone and his brother would be joining.

Quoting:...they recieved heavy fire, and it was not a cake walk.
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the only people who said the war would be a "cakewalk" were some people in the media.

They said beforehand that it will be an "in-and-out" deal and over and done in a couple weeks, then when it didn't happen, they had instant headlines for their front pages and news broadcasts.

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Have to agree here. Joining the military is an excellent way to learn a trade or leadership skills -- the recruitment campaigns here always focus on learn life skills like how to be a leader or how to fix jet engines -- but you'd have a few sandwiches short of a picnic not to know that the main function of the military is to be a military! And that means that if there's a war, you gotta go fight in it. If you join the military, you're a soldier first, and everything else second.
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Exactly.

The purpose of the military is to be a fighting force, and the other things are basically just to get people to join.  

Don't get me wrong, the military can offer a lot as far as college money and trade skills, but as you said, "the main function of the military is to be a military!".

After all, if there werent any benefits like sign-on bonuses, college money and training, would anyone join?

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After all, if there werent any benefits like sign-on bonuses, college money and training, would anyone join?
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Unfotunately, those benefits that were promised when someone signed on are now being cut. I know from personal experiece. I'm sure most people know by now, that I am a vet. I am lucky that I never had to serve in combat but the there is always that possibility. I was retired because of a vision problem.  As a retiree, I was told that I would have all my medical needs taken care of-for the rest of my life. But over the past several years, budgets for VA hospitals are being cut. The closest VA hospital to me is at least an hour and half drive-ONE WAY. For someone who doesn't drive-because of a vision problem, that is very difficult. I must admit that they did open a liason office closer to home which was great. However, I had to fight with the VA this year to get them to pay for my annual mammagram-which is part of a routine check-up-especially at my age.

I do get a pay raise every year-all of 1.1% Last year that added up to $15 more a month-ooohhhh. I really had to be careful not the spend that all in one place. What I get is not enough to live on. My retirement pay basically puts me below the poverty level. So much for "retirement." Before I moved in with D.C. I was hurting financially. AND YES, I was looking for a job. But, because of my limited driving, I was limited on where I could get one.

It really bothers me that the government will put men and women's lives in danger and then not bother with them after they had fullfilled the job. Promises are being broken. I really think that the government should value vets more AFTER they leave the service than it has in the past (and present). That is deffinately "supporting the troops" that the government is NOT doing.


(Sorry-had to rant.)


Cat

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It really bothers me that the government will put men and women's lives in danger and then not bother with them after they had fullfilled the job. Promises are being broken. I really think that the government should value vets more AFTER they leave the service than it has in the past (and present). That is deffinately "supporting the troops" that the government is NOT doing.

Cat
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I agree.

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It really bothers me that the government will put men and women's lives in danger and then not bother with them after they had fullfilled the job. Promises are being broken. I really think that the government should value vets more AFTER they leave the service than it has in the past (and present). That is deffinately "supporting the troops" that the government is NOT doing.
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Gotta agree here too. Especially when the people who start the wars get all the bonuses and pensions for life when they're no longer in office, and the ones who go fight them get next to nothing.

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John, your statement implies that joining the Marines is assumed to be nothing more than going to college for 4 years learning a trade, then getting an honorable discharge, then living happily ever after.

Thats absurd.

Nobody, I mean nobody joins the military without knowing the potential risk of having to actually serve in a conflict should one arise.  

If joining the military meant nothing more than just learning a trade for 4 years, fixing broken jeeps, then going on to get a job as a mechanic, then everyone and his brother would be joining.

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Why do people join the military? I dunno why everyone does, but my friend told me why he did. He did not have the money to go to college and his family was not rich. Working in a McDonalds for minimum wage was not appealing to him. He did not want a dead end life. A marine recruiter told him 4 years would pass fast and that they would teach him a usefull skill. He asked the recruiter about the possibility of war. The recruiter told him "Who is gonna mess with us?", and "Even if we have a conflict, chances are slim you will go, we will bomb them from the air".

But what happened?

He had to kill people. My friend is strong and good. But now he cries at night and can not sleep. He questions if Heaven will let him in. I know this because his MOM is having a nervous BREAKDOWN trying to understand what he went through. He gave one story about how his unit had to open fire on a group of Iraq's because they were unidentified in the wrong place at the wrong time. He told me "I wonder if the person even knew they were in my hair triggers... I wonder who that person was... I wonder why that person was there... I wonder what that person wanted".

If the military is so good, who don't senators sons go? Why did Bush hide like a whimp in Texas rather than serve when his time came? They called Bush's Air Gaurd the Champaign Club. I guess it comes down to money.  

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If the military is so damn good, who don't senators sons go? Why did Bush hide like a whimp in Texas rather than serve when his time came? They called Bush's Air Gaurd the Champaign Club. I guess it comes down to money.  
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I don't think either of us said the military is good. What we said was that your friend should have been prepared for the possibility of conflict. It's sad that he was forced by his circumstances into taking the military option to better his life. If it weren't for the poor, there'd be no one to man our armies. His recruitment officer lied. He couldn't possibly know whether or not your friend would face combat, not could he know what form the combat would take. I feel for your friend. I hope he gets through this.

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I don't think either of us said the military is good. What we said was that your friend should have been prepared for the possibility of conflict. It's sad that he was forced by his circumstances into taking the military option to better his life. If it weren't for the poor, there'd be no one to man our armies. His recruitment officer lied. He couldn't possibly know whether or not your friend would face combat, not could he know what form the combat would take. I feel for your friend. I hope he gets through this.
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You bring up something interesting. A Senator raised a question in the Senate a few years ago. He said we should bring back forced conscription, where everyone had an equal chance of being called up. Everyone was against it. I just wonder if there were as many rich kids in the military as the poor, if our elected officials would be as quick to send us on all these "peacekeeping missions" in places where we are unwanted. Are the lives of the poor worth so much less than the lives of the rich?

To a President, a war won is a legacy. To the kids who had to fight, it is a nightmare.

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If they brought in forced conscription over here, i'd be over the the border to Éire or Nederland, incely.
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Many American went to Canada during the Vietnam conflict. The rich Americans had defferments, or were assigned with units that had no possibility of fighting. That is one of the reasons I love people who had the guts to stand up and go. People like Al Gore, who could have easily joined up wth GW and Benson. They wanted to earn there place, not have in handed to them. If you are a true republican, then I would assume you are for people earning what they get and not having it given to them. What I do not understand is how the republicans pull the wool over your eyes because they did not earn anything. The only republicans I have respect for are people like Dole, who lost movement in his arm fighting for this great country. If the politicians are inclined for war, then we should have an across the board policy where everyone pitches in and has equal risk.

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If you are a true republican, then I would assume you are for people earning what they get and not having it given to them. What I do not understand is how the republicans pull the wool over your eyes because they did not earn anything.

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I hope you're using the hypothetical 'you' here; 'one'; the fourth person. :)

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There's no bravery in dying for a country whose policies you don't believe in, in a war you don't agree with.
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But there is Hypocoracy if you *do not want to fight* but are well connected and get special treatment. My whole point is, if you are for the war, sign up and go fight. Do not let the government lie to you. Do not be told "they have weapons of mass destruction and it is only a matter of time before they detinate a dirty nuke". And send the rich kids too, send the senators sons. Send the ones who make war.

And if you believe the war is not just, have guts like Mohhamid Ali and stand up against the government and say "I will not kill the yellow man for no reason". Can anyone tell me the grand effect Vietnam had on America, economic or otherwise? Why did we have to send 50,000 people to the grave for Ike and Nixion? What did the US get out of it. Was it all a pissing war between men with great ego's?

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I hope you're using the hypothetical 'you' here; 'one'; the fourth person. :)
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I am not implying anyone here. I use the word "you" in the same way "one" could be used. I use it as a general term meaning any people.

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You bring up something interesting. A Senator raised a question in the Senate a few years ago. He said we should bring back forced conscription, where everyone had an equal chance of being called up. Everyone was against it. I just wonder if there were as many rich kids in the military as the poor, if our elected officials would be as quick to send us on all these "peacekeeping missions" in places where we are unwanted. Are the lives of the poor worth so much less than the lives of the rich?

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Someone somewhere is always trying to bring back conscription. Here they call it "National Service". Old conservatives think it's a way to "bring youth people into line" and teach them discipline and responsibility, but National Service was dispensed with here so long ago now that only people in their late 50s even remember it. Three generations of Australians have grown up without having to spend three years in the army, and two generations have passed without the threat of conscription. History shows that conscripts simply don't make very good soldiers; I know if I was in a combat situation, I'd want to be surrounded by people who chose the military as a career, not a bunch of blokes who are there against their will. Even the ones who are there by choice might not be that keen on fighting. I can't imagine what the ones who are forced to be there would be like.

Way to go off-topic, huh?