Quoting:
  There are going to be public trials?

End Quote

Yeah right!!!  :P
No, the US wants closed military trials or Kangaroo courts as they're also known.

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Isn't Guantanamo Bay in Cuba? Isn't Cuba "The Enemy"? Or is that only when it suits?
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Yes, guantonamo Bay naval base is leased by the U.S. from Cuba and has been since 1903 or 4 as part of the agreement withdrawing U.S. troops after the Philippines, Cuban, Spanish, American War in 1898 (the "bully little war" as Teddy R describes it - first shots were in Manila Bay, by the way, to liberate Cuba!??)  You might want to check out "A Few Good Men" with Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise.  It is controlled by the U.S. Navy and Cuban authorities have no say there.

Aw, come on Taoist, "kangaroo courts"?  Little Georgie just doesn't want to expose our "intelligence gathering" (read torture) techniques to public scrutiny.

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Isn't Guantanamo Bay in Cuba? Isn't Cuba "The Enemy"? End Quote

Actually, even though Guantanamo Bay is part of the island of Cuba, it's a territory held by the United States, not Fidel Castro's communist state. Just like how the Rock of Gibraltar is held by Britain, even though it's surrounded by Spain. Or like how Hong Kong used to be a British territory, even though it was surrounded by China.

And while Guantanamo Bay is held by the United States, it's not officially part of the United States proper, which is why prisoners are being held there. Because the prisoners are kept from landing on US soil, they can be denied legal rights that people in the United States are otherwise entitled to.

Quoting:


Yes, guantonamo Bay naval base is leased by the U.S. from Cuba and has been since 1903 or 4
End Quote

Hey Don, how long does the US have the lease for in Cuba, and are we paying the Cuban's anything for their land?

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Hey Don, how long does the US have the lease for in Cuba, and are we paying the Cuban's anything for their land?
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THe lease was for 100 years, and will expire next year, I think.
WE make an annual payment - don't know how much - but Castro has never cashed the checks, evan during the near collapse of the Cuban economy in the early '90s.

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THe lease was for 100 years, and will expire next year, I think.
WE make an annual payment - don't know how much - but Castro has never cashed the checks, evan during the near collapse of the Cuban economy in the early '90s.
End Quote

Do you think we will give it back when the lease expires, or do you think we will find some premptive reason to stay?

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Do you think we will give it back when the lease expires, or do you think we will find some premptive reason to stay?
End Quote

Good question!  Who knows.  We will probably try, and if the price is right, the Cubans might let us, but I doubt it.  They are very much into national sovereignty and independence.  If we refuse to go, they will probably appeal to the U.N. and the world court etc.  They are on good terms (trade/ diplomatic recognition) with over 150 nations around the world.

Quoting:
BBC story

So, now Bush has OKed a show trial before the Guantanamo bay inmates are murdered!
Again, the hypocracy is amazing!  When the first US POWs were taken in Iraq, Bush demanded they be treated according to the geneva convention.
Do Americans know what's going on here?
I ask because America presents itself to the world as a country with respect for law, due process, democracy, Christianity, etc.  A list of concepts that Bush apparently can't even spell!
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You use the BBC like it is the gosphel, yet the BBC's biased has been exposed numourous times.  Most of the inmates at Guantonimo Bay deserve to be there, and yes some of the inmates probally deserve the death panalty.  The organizations that these prisoners support killed almost 3000 americans on september 11th.  The real hipocracy lies in the public opinions of the rest of the world.   We try to make the world a better place, and look how ungreatful they are.

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You use the BBC like it is the gosphel, yet the BBC's biased has been exposed numourous times.
End Quote

I used the BBC story simply to illustrate the facts - That GWB has OKed military courts for the POWs in Guantanamo bay.  My post did not reference it further.  I also note that you have tried to 'ad hominim' the BBC without any substance!

Quoting:
Most of the inmates at Guantonimo Bay deserve to be there, and yes some of the inmates probally deserve the death panalty.  The organizations that these prisoners support killed almost 3000 americans on september 11th.End Quote

A bold statement, surely 'rule of law' (as practised by civilised countries) means this should be proved in a fair trial.  Also, these POWs were captured defending their country (or adopted country).  Afghanistan was never accused, let alone proved, to be connected to Sept 11, they were simply accused of failing to hand over OBL (who himself has not been proved to be connected to Sept 11)

Quoting:
The real hipocracy lies in the public opinions of the rest of the world.   We try to make the world a better place, and look how ungreatful they are.
End Quote

Hmm, little Johnny is in step, it's the rest of the parade that's wrong!
The US is NOT making the world a better place at all, it's simply grabbing what it wants for itself at the expense of the rest of the world.  Don't take my word for (as I don't take yours)  There's a concept called democracy, you may be familiar with it!  The democratic voice of the world is against you, just as it's against OBL.
In an attempt to be civilised, most of the world has agreed on laws, just as the US has internally.  The US is ignoring these laws (Geneva convention, authority of the UN, War crimes laws, etc) and denying people basic human rights.

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Afghanistan was never accused, let alone proved, to be connected to Sept 11, they were simply accused of failing to hand over OBL (who himself has not been proved to be connected to Sept 11)
End Quote

This is a lie. I seem to remember a video tape that had Osama claiming that the september 11th attacks killed more people than he thought.  That is enough proof for me.

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Hmm, little Johnny is in step, it's the rest of the parade that's wrong!
End Quote

I am not even going to dignify this with a comment, but the two main opponents of the liberation of Iraq, France and Russia, had a lot to loose by the US freeing Iraq.  They both had deals to export the Sadam's oil.  By claiming the US is wrong you are actually supporting the French and Russian Oil companies.

Quoting:
Here is an example of the BBC's Biased:
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Last few years, the BBC has been accused of bias against the Conservative party (by the Conservative party), the government (by the Labour party), the Israelis (by the Israelis) and the Palestinians (by some bloke I'd never heard of but looked kind of Muslim)... looks to me that they've got their balance about right.

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I am not even going to dignify this with a comment, but the two main opponents of the liberation of Iraq, France and Russia, had a lot to loose by the US freeing Iraq.  They both had deals to export the Sadam's oil.  By claiming the US is wrong you are actually supporting the French and Russian Oil companies.
End Quote

That last sentence is a complete non sequitur: the French and Russian positions were every bit as hypocritical as the US and UK ones, just from the opposite viewpoint.  Just because they are scheming and underhand doesn't mean the US wasn't (in fact, the way it seemed to me was that the only thing that weakened public opinion against the war over here was France's arrogance... nobody I've met even came close to believing the official reasons for invasion).

Phil

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You use the BBC like it is the gosphel, yet the BBC's biased has been exposed numourous times.End Quote

By who, Bill O'Rielly?

Quoting:
Here is an example of the BBC's Biased:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030630/tv_nm/media_israel_bbc_dc_1
End Quote

This is hardly proof but as I said, not really relevent to this thread

Quoting:
This is a lie. I seem to remember a video tape that had Osama claiming that the september 11th attacks killed more people than he thought.  That is enough proof for me.
End Quote

Again, as I said, in civilised countries, we have reasonable levels for the proof required to convict someone of a serious crime.  Even if you personally don't agree with this, your country pretends that it does (you're not on trial here, the US is!).  Also, OBL is not even an Afghan, how does this mean that Afghan soldiers/civilians are not entitled to defend their country against foreign aggression.
And...Please don't accuse me of lying!

Quoting:
...but the two main opponents of the liberation of Iraq, France and Russia, had a lot to loose by the US freeing Iraq.  They both had deals to export the Sadam's oil.  By claiming the US is wrong you are actually supporting the French and Russian Oil companies.
End Quote

What??
This is illogical and completely irrelevant.
I am opposing the US's blatent disregard for international law and breaching of the Geneva convention regarding treatment of POWs.  I never mentioned Iraq or Oil?

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The real hipocracy lies in the public opinions of the rest of the world.   We try to make the world a better place, and look how ungreatful they are.
End Quote

Better by who's standards? Maybe they do not want us making it "better" for them. Maybe they want to be left alone.

Quoting:
The real hipocracy
End Quote

...rule by horses?

;-)

Phil

Quoting:
This seems to be getting out of hand.  The question is, should the U.S. administration be able to try captives without public trial befor military tribunals, or as Taoist described them "drumhead trials"?  If they are terrorists, criminals, and bad guys, than why should they not be charged with their crimes and subjected to regular, cevilian courts of law?  Isn't that what all our juris prudencs is about?  Read the Declaration of Independence - one of the specific reasons we rebelled agains "Fat George" (no ofence you Brits) was that he denied trial by jury.  So I guess we need to rebel against "skinny George" to protect that right.

But lets cool down the rhetoric in terms of how we deal with each other, ok?
End Quote

I understand the reason why Bush is having military trials is because there is evidence which he believes is a threat to national security, and that by having military trials he can control what information is released. I think that the prisoners we have should be afforded all the rights of the geneva convention, an agreement the US is a part of. We would demand that if anyone took Americans as priosners, they be treated according to the geneva convention. We demanded that of the Vietnam government. I also thought we could only hold prisioners as long as a war is occuring. By those definitions, these people who are being held should be released back to their countries once the conflict is over, and if they violate laws once released back to their countries, they should be tried in public courts.

Quoting:
The war in Afghanistan has been over for more than a year. Under the terms of the Geneva Convention, prisoners of war are supposed to be released at the conclusion of hostilities. If these alleged terrorists are being held for crimes against humanity, they should be presented to a war crimes tribunal in front of the ICC in The Hague, not summarily executed on a lonely island in the Carribean. If this was happening to Americans, it would be a different story, I guarantee it.
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ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And, under the Geneva Convention AND the U.N. Charter, GWB should be charged as a war criminal too, for his act of aggression.  He should also be impeached, along with his entire cabinet IMHO.

Quoting:
A very general statement on my part, after reading all the political therads -

Politically, nothing much will ever go the way we'd like and very little will ever change in government.

Venting in this forum is good for the soul. If only it made a difference in the real world.

If only.... :-/
End Quote

Oh, you're such a cynic, but you may be right.  Hopefully not though.

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Oh, you're such a cynic, but you may be right.  Hopefully not though.
End Quote

Yeah, pretty depressing. I should have typed a disclaimer.

Quoting:
A very general statement on my part, after reading all the political therads -

Politically, nothing much will ever go the way we'd like and very little will ever change in government.

Venting in this forum is good for the soul. If only it made a difference in the real world.

If only.... :-/
End Quote

True HS, but I feel that it is far worse not to say ANYTHING. It is our right as Americans (and Brits, Aussies, Canadians etc.) to express our opinions-ESPECIALLY if it does go against the popular opinion. Many people have great ideas how this country and world should be run. Maybe, just maybe by venting someone will listen. And that person, will tell someone that idea, and so on and so on (I know, I sound like as stupid shampoo comerical.  ;)) You never know who may be coming on to this board to read. Someone on this board may have friends in high places.


Cat

Quoting:


You never know who may be coming on to this board to read. Someone on this board may have friends in high places.


Cat
End Quote

:D If that's the case, I'm glad I don't use my real name when I post. Who knows what sort of "high places" they may be connected with. :)

Quoting:


True HS, but I feel that it is far worse not to say ANYTHING. It is our right as Americans (and Brits, Aussies, Canadians etc.) to express our opinions-ESPECIALLY if it does go against the popular opinion. Many people have great ideas how this country and world should be run. Maybe, just maybe by venting someone will listen. And that person, will tell someone that idea, and so on and so on (I know, I sound like as stupid shampoo comerical.  ;)) You never know who may be coming on to this board to read. Someone on this board may have friends in high places.


Cat
End Quote

I can't help but think of the quote, don't know who said it, "If good (people) do nothing, evil will prevail."  

What this suggests, and I address this to Hair Spray, with no offense intended, is that if we allow our cynisizm to overpower us, than there will be no will to resist.  Cynisizm leads to dispair, and dispair leads to inaction.  

But that is NOT the American spirit.  Cat is a prime example.  In our little town there are lots of hungry people, but through her efforts, and those of the people she has mobilized, our community food shelf has NO ROOM TO PUT THE FOOD, and lots of it goes out every week to unemployed families, old folks who otherwise couldn't get their meds etc.  This is what people can do for each other if they ask, as Bobby Kennedy said, "why not?"  

If we could only marschal and multiply the good will shown by the people of my little town, and project it onto the world stage, no power on earth could stop us.

To do that we have to has "why?", and we have to be willing to face the answers.  Then we can think about "why not?".

But this should be on the "political views" thread, so  I'll just end by plewading with HairSpray and others not to become so cynical that you fall int dispair.  We all can do something, and every little bit helps (call me a cockeyed optimist if you like).

Quoting:

But that is NOT the American spirit.  Cat is a prime example.  In our little town there are lots of hungry people, but through her efforts, and those of the people she has mobilized, our community food shelf has NO ROOM TO PUT THE FOOD, and lots of it goes out every week to unemployed families, old folks who otherwise couldn't get their meds etc.  
End Quote

I wasn't just me. There were a lot of people who helped out. I feel that my part in this was very minium compared to others. And all of that couldn't be done without the generousity of the community.  (Sorry to get off topic a bit.)


Cat

Quoting:
I'm sure you've all heard of the cases of the two British citizens who are being held in Guantanamo Bay (especially the Brits). Does anyone else think this is laughable? The way the British press has been treating it. Suddenly because they happen to be British citizens the whole issue of a military trial and the treatment of people there is now a real issue?!

It's like the news reports where they say '68 people were killed...including two Britons'.  ??? I can just imagine them saying '64 people were painfully killed, but luckily no British people were harmed'. I'm sure this happens in America too...probably in most countries.
End Quote

Yes, it happens here too. "2 Americans were killed...." or "No Americans were hurt in this incedent." It is fine just as long as Americans were not involved.  ::)



Cat

Quoting:



Yes, it happens here too. "2 Americans were killed...." or "No Americans were hurt in this incedent." It is fine just as long as Americans were not involved.  ::)



Cat
End Quote

We can be cynical and BLAME this on "jingoism, or nationalism" or whatever, or just accept it as sort of a natural reaction.  In the political views thread I spoke of concentric circles of concern.  I did not include "my own countryfellows" as one of those circles, but one certainly could.  In that light, this could be seen as a harmless and understandable, although maybe thoughtless, convention.