Quoting:
I've expressed my pesimism and just hope, for everyone's sake that I was wrong.
End Quote

Me, too.  Things are looking a bit too good to be true at the moment, but fingers crossed...

Quoting:
We have a lot of making up to do between the European countries that we alienated through GWB's cowboy diplomacy.End Quote

I respectfully disagree. We tried to get them involved as much as was possible, but they chose to alienate themselves by not wanting any part of it.

Quoting:
This war would have caused a lot less grief if we could have been more patient with the rest of the world. We should have waited for things like proof before we went in.End Quote

We do not know that this war would have caused a lot less grief if we could have been more patient with the rest of the world and we never will. I think, judging by Iraqi reaction, they had waited long enough for their liberation from the madman and his atrocious regime.

Quoting:
The diplomacy of GWB (or lack there-of) made this war a bitter pill to swallow and now we will have to deal with the consequences.End Quote

Evidently, this was the only way this war would have ever happened. George W. Bush is the only one who could have pulled it off too, with his "cowboy" mentality.

As far as consequences...

What are you referring to, specifically?

Quoting:
You can flush Europe all you want, but we still need their buisiness if we are going to get out of this recession. That's not my opinion, that's economics.
End Quote

They'd trade with us anyway.

Quoting:
We have a lot of making up to do between the European countries that we alienated through GWB's cowboy diplomacy. This war would have caused a lot less grief if we could have been more patient with the rest of the world. We should have waited for things like proof before we went in.End Quote

hey, GW's "cowboy diplomacy" is what produced the amazing footage and pictures we saw today of the Iraqis fiinally getting a taste of freedom for the first time in their lives.  

If you want to continue to protest it, make sure you emphasize its YOUR opinion, and not the rest of America's.


PS-  to all those protestors who carried signs saying "NOT IN OUR NAME", by all means keep it that way.  When I see the Iraqis kissing pictures of Bush and chanting "USA USA" like they did today, we'll all remember their first taste of liberation and freedom was Not in YOUR Name.  Who needs ya.

Quoting:The diplomacy of GWB (or lack there-of) made this war a bitter pill to swallow and now we will have to deal with the consequences.End Quote

Consquences?

Could you have a more negative outlook?  Doubt it.

Call me crazy, but liberating a country from a brutal, murdering ruler is not a bad thing, despite what you and CNN seem to think it is.

Quoting:Will we be able to salvage the UN or is it doomed to follow the path of the League of Nations? It's in our hands.
End Quote

again, had we waited around for the UN to do their useless "inspections", the Iraqis would not have been able to celebrate, like they did today.

The UN building can collapse and crumble into the river as far as I'm concerned. ;)

Quoting:
You can flush Europe all you want, but we still need their buisiness if we are going to get out of this recession. That's not my opinion, that's economics.
End Quote

So the self proclaimed Socialist wants to give us a lesson in economics? Don't comment on something you may not understand.

Edited because we're trying to cut down on the personal insults, per Forum Guidelines.

Quoting:
You can flush Europe all you want, but we still need their buisiness if we are going to get out of this recession. That's not my opinion, that's economics.
End Quote

Wow John.  I guess you really don't get it.

Money is money, and even if it comes from a country you absolutely hate, its still money.

Like Rice said, they will still trade with us.  Even if they absolutley hate America, if they want our business as 99.9% of the world does, they will do whatever they can to do business with us.  

Thats economics sonny.

Quoting:
Money is money, and even if it comes from a country you absolutely hate, its still money.

Like Rice said, they will still trade with us.  Even if they absolutley hate America, if they want our business as 99.9% of the world does, they will do whatever they can to do business with us.  

End Quote

Well, I was thinking more in terms of whether we absolutely need anything from Europe that we can't make or grow here in the United States.  But I'm betting that Europe needs America more than America needs Europe.

No offense to anyone, just my personal opinion.

Quoting:
First of this is a wonderful thing to view, please anti-war people dont choose not to see it.  Aknowledge success even when it's not expected.
George W and the admin have communicated very clearly the threat, changes necessary to remove that threat, action to be taken if demands not met, and lastly very clear time lines which that action will take place.  
I don't recall an admin since Reagan (to young to vote, but wouldn't have back then if I could) that has made their agenda more clear, George W may not be as great a speaker as Clinton but he has proven his words have weight.
If this cowboy politics then I choose that over the "spin" politics we sat through for to long.  
End Quote

Personally I think we, as the world in general, were anesthetised(sp?) by the wussy all talk and no action politics of our last...eh hum..."president".

And now that we have one who says what he's going to do and does what he says, some people don't know how to react.

Quoting:


Personally I think we, as the world in general, we anesthetised(sp?) by the wussy all talk and no action politics of our last...eh hum..."president".

And now that we have one who says what he's going to do and does what he says, some people don't know how to react.
End Quote

Exactly, one of the final straws that broke my democratic back, the lack of spine in Clinton.  George, whether you believe in his polices or not, at least you can expect him to clearly state, and keep, his word.

Quoting:
This isn't over by a long shot. This is only the beginning. End Quote

I'm afraid it's not!
The celebrating Iraqis are in fact only a small minority, mainly Shias.  I don't think this can be taken as evidence of much. I'm pretty sure you would get the same reaction in any country, there are always opposition to the current regime and even people who simply want to ingratiate themselves with the conquerers!

Quoting:


Personally I think we, as the world in general, were anesthetised(sp?) by the wussy all talk and no action politics of our last...eh hum..."president".

And now that we have one who says what he's going to do and does what he says, some people don't know how to react.

End Quote

Read your own post. "....we, as the world in general...."  "And now that we have one....."
So your speaking for the world in general now?
Your.....eh hum....... current "president", as much as he strives to be, and you and your right wing buds fantasize that he is, is not our (the world in general) president.

Quoting:
This isn't over by a long shot. This is only the beginning. You can look at  the symbolisim of the  US flag draped around Saddam's statue's head more than one way. You are looking at it as VICTORY!!
How do you think the Arab world is looking at the same scene?
End Quote

Good question.  I've heard the heavy brass at the Pentagon went nuclear when they saw the US flag over the head, and it was quickly replaced with the pre-1991 Iraqi flag.

If "this" is the aggressive Coalition presence in Iraq... well, if it's not over it's entering the end-game.  If "this" is explosive and revolutionary change in the Middle East, centering in Iraq, than yes, it's just beginning.

Quoting:

Read your own post. "....we, as the world in general...."  "And now that we have one....."
So your speaking for the world in general now?
Your.....eh hum....... current "president", as much as he strives to be, and you and your right wing buds fantasize that he is, is not our (the world in general) president.
End Quote

Pardon me, but it seems you took the statement out of context, or you just see it differently than I do.

So the way I read it, 80sRocked was talking about our last President.  That would be the US President, not the French president or the Canadian Prime Minister or the Shah of Iran (who I guess no longer exists, but whatever).  And what he's basically saying is that our last President (let's call him "Bubba"), albeit a smooth talker, was not a man of action.  But this current US President (let's call him "Dubya"), although admittedly a BAD public speaker, has the gumption and the gall to "meddle" in world affairs in an effort to rid the world of an imminent threat.  80sRocked's statement just says that the world preferred Bubba over Dubya because Bubba didn't care, and the world got used to Bubba's non-caring and associated the United States as a whole with it, so they were not prepared for Dubya's gung-ho attitude.

At least that's how I see it.

Quoting:

Read your own post. "....we, as the world in general...."  "And now that we have one....."
So your speaking for the world in general now?
Your.....eh hum....... current "president", as much as he strives to be, and you and your right wing buds fantasize that he is, is not our (the world in general) president.
End Quote

I love you, peeps, whoever you are :)

Quoting:

Read your own post. "....we, as the world in general...."  "And now that we have one....."
So your speaking for the world in general now?
Your.....eh hum....... current "president", as much as he strives to be, and you and your right wing buds fantasize that he is, is not our (the world in general) president.
End Quote

...please see Rice Cube's post.  Then maybe you will understand what I was trying to say. ;)  (thanks Rice by the way)

Of course GWB isn't the world's president per say, But being in the position he is in, as is any US president, he has a lot of power worldwide.  And "Bubba" was a man of "all bark and no bite", and the world knoew he was nothing more than a horny-smooth-talking-lying-wussy-pushover.

Thank God GWB isn't afraid to actually do something.

Quoting:
  I'm not going to call this mission a success until the whole of Iraq is rebuilt and the people have an elected government looking out for them that is allowed to say "No" to the United States.End Quote

*In a George Bush Sr. tone*: Not gonna happen.

That would defeat the purpose of our intervening. I wouldn't hold my breath for what you're asking.

Quoting:How many of the democratic principles that we hold so important will be suspended in Iraq as they have been in other countries? Iran, the Philippines, most of Central America ...?End Quote

They don't need those things now. What they need is a strong leader who will rule the different factions of Iraq with an iron fist, yet will be west-friendly (such as the Shah of Iran or maybe even another Tito), until things settle down. Try implementing democratic ideals now into and they'll soon be steeped in a civil war.

Quoting:Will we make another blunder like overthrowing an elected Iranian Prime Minister for petrol concerns? Will we screw up again like we did when we assisted the Ba'ath party to power in Iraq?End Quote

They all served their purpose: Ours.

Quoting:I find it interesting how many of the war dogs are finding vindication at this phase of the war. It tends toward the presumption that the victory comes when we stop invading and start occupying. And that's a foolish presumption.End Quote

I don't. Those are some other people. What I do want to come from this is success since our nation has committed itself to this task and we're running up a large tab, so there better be benefits that come from this. This goes besides the casualties of our troops out there who are fighting to secure our way of life.

Quoting:.. Someone would wish to speak of the suffering of the Iraqi people? Someone, please, quantify it. As issues in the DRC show, focus on the Iraqis ignores greater human disasters around the world.End Quote

And?

Quoting:What separates our concern for the Iraqis, as opposed to Zimbabwe, DRC, or even North Korea, is that the Iraqis are more important because they have oil. A human disaster is a human disaster regardless of nation or ethnicity.End Quote

What you're asking is that we fight on all fronts on kindness alone?

Quoting:If we're going to tackle the world's problems, let's do it according to some better priority than who has the best earning and spending potential...End Quote

But that's how things are done in the real world. That's why you and I are here comfortably discussing this horrible matter in clinical tones. If you're really revolted then, by all means, boycott America. Stop eating at the fast-food restaurants, don't buy cigarrettes, stop purchasing clothes, don't eat vegetables and fruits, don't buy precious metals, don't use the computers, and God forbid you shouldn't drive a car. Do you think it better pointing out the faults when your stomach is full? Seriously, where does it stop? When is it okay to freely accept things as human nature running its course and when should you be angry and sickened by the results of it? Every bit of comfort and luxury you subconsciously enjoy while living in this nation buys into the plotting and scheming that goes on elsewhere - and we're not talking about Zimbabwe here. Zimbabwe bears little relevance on our life's activities, but Iraq does.

Quoting:And some of us are sick and tired of signing on for these half-assed adventures that bring victory only in the military sense that the enemy (e.g. Saddam Hussein) has been defeated. The actual condition of the Iraqi people, one of the motivators for this war, is generally unimportant to those who sponsor this war.End Quote

So don't sign. You have freewill. Use it.

Out of your own volition you choose to not do anything substantial to make a change for what you believe is "right." Out of my own volition, I have accepted this as life and won't be spouting with my mouth full.

Quoting:


That would defeat the purpose of our intervening. I wouldn't hold my breath for what you're asking.

End Quote

  I'm not.

Quoting:
They don't need those things now. What they need is a strong leader who will rule the different factions of Iraq with an iron fist, yet will be west-friendly (such as the Shah of Iran or maybe even another Tito), until things settle down. Try implementing democratic ideals now into and they'll soon be steeped in a civil war.

End Quote

  The Iraqi Shi'ite Muslims haven't breathed freely in over two millennia. The situation in Iraq is that the current generation has no clue what it's like to be free and not be exploited. The operating assumption there is that people are subjects of a government, not that government is an institution of the people. We have to overcome this problem before we can help build a free society anywhere in the oppressed Islamic world.

  Ask yourself why the internal Iraqi opposition parties are being frozen out of the game? Because they don't get the freedom rap, either. It's not the raising of the Iraqi people they're interested in as much as it is being the next guy in charge. We're happy to play ball with the international dispersal of Iraqi opposition because they're playing ball more like we're used to. But as a practical matter, you're going to have to deal with people who are used to being told what to do as well as people for whom freedom is the right to oppress others.

Quoting:

They all served their purpose: Ours.

End Quote

  I can't argue with that.

Quoting:

I don't. Those are some other people. What I do want to come from this is success since our nation has committed itself to this task and we're running up a large tab, so there better be benefits that come from this. This goes besides the casualties of our troops out there who are fighting to secure our way of life.

End Quote

  Secure our way of life..a.k.a. "protecting our freedom", I've heard these thrown aound so much, lately...

  I think sappy appeals like those above are detrimental to our armed services; they cast military action in a dishonest light, and it is, after all, in part, American integrity that the world is arguing right now as we abrogate our international agreements to stage an invasion of a country we helped ruin by supporting a criminal regime.

  It's just really hard to respect the people who are "protecting our freedom" when they are, in fact, doing nothing of the sort. I prefer my soldiers in terrain-appropriate camouflage, not in sheep's clothing. Of course, on a practical level, it would probably do me no good to tell the Iraqis that; but it makes sense that Hussein would create such a circumstance. But still, when we send our soldiers forth to actually protect us, I'll openly support them. At present, however, we have a volunteer army staging an invasion of a foreign nation without immediate cause and in violation of multiple international agreements which the United States has chosen to enter.

  And I just don't know quite what to think about that.  I fully expect to be beaten about the head and shoulders for this view. :-X

Quoting:

And?

End Quote

  Nice reply, but it leaves me wanting...

Quoting:

What you're asking is that we fight on all fronts on kindness alone..

End Quote

  I think you know what I'm talking about.  I'll let you re-read my post and reflect upon it.

Quoting:

But that's how things are done in the real world. That's why you and I are here comfortably discussing this horrible matter in clinical tones. If you're really revolted then, by all means, boycott America. Stop eating at the fast-food restaurants, don't buy cigarrettes, stop purchasing clothes, don't eat vegetables and fruits, don't buy precious metals, don't use the computers, and God forbid you shouldn't drive a car. Do you think it better pointing out the faults when your stomach is full? Seriously, where does it stop? When is it okay to freely accept things as human nature running its course and when should you be angry and sickened by the results of it? Every bit of comfort and luxury you subconsciously enjoy while living in this nation buys into the plotting and scheming that goes on elsewhere - and we're not talking about Zimbabwe here. Zimbabwe bears little relevance on our life's activities, but Iraq does.

End Quote

  Oh please don't give me the "Love It Or Leave It" rap again...been there, done that, bought the f***ing t-shirt...next..? ::)

Quoting:

So don't sign. You have freewill. Use it.

Out of your own volition you choose to not do anything substantial to make a change for what you believe is "right." Out of my own volition, I have accepted this as life and won't be spouting with my mouth full.
End Quote

  See above.

Quoting:

  Secure our way of life..a.k.a. "protecting our freedom", I've heard these thrown aound so much, lately...End Quote

Our way of life includes the use of gasoline, the creation of the biggest pile of waste in the world, the overconsumption, etc. Yes, all of it. You buy into it just as much as the next the guy, so don't condescend to lumping my opinion with what you've "heard so much lately" because you haven't. I never mentioned anything about "freedom." What we want foremost is to freely consume... that is what I was getting at.

Quoting:I think sappy appeals like those above are detrimental to our armed services; they cast military action in a dishonest light, and it is, after all, in part, American integrity that the world is arguing right now as we abrogate our international agreements to stage an invasion of a country we helped ruin by supporting a criminal regime.End Quote

Therefore, going to Zimbabwe is going to put us in a new light. I see where you're getting with this.

Quoting:It's just really hard to respect the people who are "protecting our freedom" when they are, in fact, doing nothing of the sort.End Quote

It's just really hard to respect a nay-sayers's opinion when they eat off the same trough as the other animals.

Quoting:Nice reply, but it leaves me wanting...End Quote

There's nothing more for me to add. I'm not an idealist.

Otoh, your's leave me more than satisfied.

Quoting:I think you know what I'm talking about.  I'll let you re-read my post and reflect upon it.End Quote

So you do want to us to fight on all fronts on kindness alone...

Quoting:Oh please don't give me the "Love It Or Leave It" rap again...been there, done that, bought the f***ing t-shirt...next..? ::)End Quote

Where, may I ask, did I state such a thing? I merely stated that if you're so revolted and dissatisfied with the status quo of this nation's tactics (which provides for all your enjoyment of life's better things), then you should do something pro-active instead of whine your guilty consumerist conscience away and mask it as good intentions and being for peace. I don't give you anything. You have given yourself this dilemma, now deal with it and don't blame others for thinking rationally. Think about it next time you take a drive somewhere to cool off and pull out a pack of smokes...

Quoting:
Zimbabwe bears little relevance on our life's activities, but Iraq does.
End Quote

So because it doesn't affect "us", we can just ignore it. Yep, you're right. That's human nature, all right.

Quoting:


So because it doesn't affect "us", we can just ignore it. Yep, you're right. That's human nature, all right.
End Quote

Pardon me for asking, because I'm not completely sure of it...but aren't most African nations former European colonies?  So maybe a European coalition would be more suited to dealing with nations like Zimbabwe.

Just a thought.

Quoting:


Pardon me for asking, because I'm not completely sure of it...but aren't most African nations former European colonies?  So maybe a European coalition would be more suited to dealing with nations like Zimbabwe.

Just a thought.
End Quote

Zimbabwe used to be Rhodesia. At the last Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting there was a call to suspend Zimbabwe from the Commonwealth, but the big guns like Australia opposed it! The ironic thing about Zimbabwe is that it is the white farmers who are being forced off their lands and slaughtered by black rebels who are being supported by the black president who was brought to power by the whites.

Quoting:


So because it doesn't affect "us", we can just ignore it. Yep, you're right. That's human nature, all right.
End Quote

You're catching on. I mean, if Zimbabwe was supporting Hezbollah, had oil reserves, and was correctly placed on a world map, then I would agree that US intervention would sound rational.

I certainly hope you also do not believe on fighting world injustices on kindness alone. It is unpractical and inefficient for our purposes. If we're not looking out for number one, who will?

Quoting:
It is unpractical and inefficient for our purposes.
End Quote

And those purposes are..? What an extraordinarily arrogant thing to say.

Quoting:
Seeing as how Zimbabwe is a member of the Commonwealth, what exactly should the United States do about it?
End Quote

Nothing of course. It should just sit by and watch it be torn apart by a corrupt leader with no consideration for human rights until it starts rattling a sabre at Washington.

Quoting:


And those purposes are..? What an extraordinarily arrogant thing to say.
End Quote

I know a topic is running out of new things to say when repetition becomes the norm.

The purposes are to maintain our way of life. What I write may come off as arrogant to you, but at least it's not unrealistic. Consumerism, economics, luxuries and comforts, selfishness, the GDP, inflation, cost of living, hedonism, lazyness and stupidity, apathy, poverty, geo-economics: Those are all facts of life. They have to be spoken for too.

This nation (and yours) provides and encourages the daisy-chain ideology of others to be spoken for as loudly as one may feel like and they also secure thoughts like mine. The truth is hardly ever pleasant, so people are welcome to not like it and I am glad to read well-written and well-thought out dissenting ideas. I am also glad they get to reap and enjoy the benefits from the cruel and underhanded tactics of our foreign policy.

I think that once idealists resort to simple one-sentence answers and not the usual long-winded, agitated verbiage is when the air has fully escaped from the bag.

Quoting:


Nothing of course. It should just sit by and watch it be torn apart by a corrupt leader with no consideration for human rights until it starts rattling a sabre at Washington.
End Quote

Are you saying "nothing" sarcastically?  

If not, if you believe the United States should do something, what do you recommend?

Quoting:
Hey, I've got it!  Why don't we send Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon and Michael Moore to Zimbabwe and have them flash peace signs at the warring factions.  ;D  (I'm sure France and Germany would approve...)  
End Quote

hey I'm all for that idea! :D

Hey and don't forget Martin Sheen, he could be their leader.  After all he does seem to think that just because he plays a pres on TV, that makes him a real pres in real life. ::)


it would do a lot of them some good to actually see first-hand what they are trying to protest against.  (much like many of the human shields who went to Iraq until they realized the Iraqis wanted them to get out).

Quoting:
The purposes are to maintain our way of life. What I write may come off as arrogant to you, but at least it's not unrealistic. Consumerism, economics, luxuries and comforts, selfishness, the GDP, inflation, cost of living, hedonism, lazyness and stupidity, apathy, poverty, geo-economics: Those are all facts of life. They have to be spoken for too.

This nation (and yours) provides and encourages the daisy-chain ideology of others to be spoken for as loudly as one may feel like and they also secure thoughts like mine. The truth is hardly ever pleasant, so people are welcome to not like it and I am glad to read well-written and well-thought out dissenting ideas. I am also glad they get to reap and enjoy the benefits from the cruel and underhanded tactics of our foreign policy.

End Quote

Indeed it is arrogant, but you are correct: it is realistic. Believe me when I say that I am keenly aware of the points you have made in this post. You are forthright in stating that US foreign policy is primarily concerned with maintaining the US way of life, first, last and always. Liberating an oppressed nation along the way may help the country to look noble as well, but we should remember that the primary reason the war was undertaken wasn't to free Iraq from Saddam, but to free the US from a perceived danger.

Believe me, I know exactly what you're saying. All countries have the responsibility to look after their own interests before that of others and often need to use cruel and underhanded tactics in order to do so, not only in foreign policy matters but often in domestic situations as well. My point here has been to highlight the obvious double standards that are employed by administrations as part of these tactics. Do we have the right to condemn one nation for doing openly what another (including our own) does in secret? Of course not. But if we can claim that we're doing it for the greater good while "they" are doing it for nefarious reasions, at least we can justify it to ourselves. And if that keeps the people happy and maintains our way of life, why should we argue?

Quoting:


...please see Rice Cube's post.  Then maybe you will understand what I was trying to say. ;)  (thanks Rice by the way)

Of course GWB isn't the world's president per say, But being in the position he is in, as is any US president, he has a lot of power worldwide.  And "Bubba" was a man of "all bark and no bite", and the world knoew he was nothing more than a horny-smooth-talking-lying-wussy-pushover.

Thank God GWB isn't afraid to actually do something.

End Quote

OK, that is your take on what the rest of the world is thinking..........here is mine.
I think they sat back and watched in amazement as the right wing spent billions of the taxpayer's dollars and hundreds of hours of the legislative and judicial branches of the government's time investigating a President of The United States getting a hum#3r in the Oval Office, and  nearly getting him booted out of office for lying about something that millions of men around the world have lied about.The most investigated man in the history of the world, and that is the worst they could get on him. And oh yeah, by the way, THAT WAS 5 YEARS AGO!! Get over it.
And now they watch as a cowboy, ex frat boy, daddy wannabe, who was put into office, not by a majority of the votes, but by an outdated, good ol' boy system and the billions of right wing dollars, who hasn't got the intelligence to run a baseball team, much less a country, but is there as a figurehead for George Sr., Cheney, Rumsfeld, and all the rest of the idiots that still hang on to Ronald Reagen like he was a God, sends us into a war that the majority of the world knows is wrong, and uses the fear of terrorisim to slowly suck our Constitutional Rights out from under us.
That is my take on how the rest of the world looks at us.
Lets let the people on this board that actually are from other countries judge who has the clearer take on how they view us........OK?

Quoting:
Good morning TB........BTW, how do you know it is morning where I reside? 8) :o
End Quote

We toys can see everythiiiiiiing :) :D ;D

Quoting:

Hi Hs, :)
Hmm, well, I'll retake the topic.  ::)Yes, I also saw the pictures of the Irakis celebrating the so-called liberation but I have also seen quite scary pictures, like those showing looting n destruction.  :-/

And honestly, I think that now it's the Kurdish who can n will celebrate... Now they have carte blanche to go n take whatever they fancy.  :( "Hey, look, nice carpet, let's take it to Kurdistan". "What about looting the whole country, we Kurdish will help n liberate the country n will do them a favour by devasting the whole place, including hospitals"...How sad, isn't it?  :-/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-643304,00.html

::) Maybe the USA intentions (at least the ones they proclamed or the theoric reasons to send in troops to Irak) were good but honestly, they got in their way. If I were an Iraki n some1 told me now about freedom, now that the place's been looted n few people had real future, I couldn't care less... What's left when you've been looted n have no money, no job n nothing to eat...?

War cuts both ways...And that's true, unfortunately...I really hope the reconstructions plans the USA talks about work n can be carried out soon.Because in the meanwhile, many people suffer each day n no1 stops the devastion n the looting. Something Irakis have already started to get used to.

Delia