Quoting:
And no, we have to talk about this.  ;D
End Quote

Okay.

Quoting:
Well, this is one thing that the war has led to.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030407/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear_4



Doesn't look good.



Cat

End Quote

Bush has said he doesn't have any plans to use military force on North Korea.  So how could they think that its "a prelude to war" if Bush has no intentions of a war with them.

Quoting:
I hope it all works out the way they're saying it will, but I still worry about our troops and those Iraqi civilians.
End Quote

You worry about the Iraqi civilians now?  

Oh so thats why you are opposed to them being liberated. ::)  Hell if it were up to you protestors, we would just leave them alone and let our good ol buddy Saddam slaughter them.  

Thats how you show you are worried about them?

Make up your mind.  You can't have it both ways.



Let me get this straight:

1. Saddam slaughters his people on a daily basis, that is a known fact.

2. However protesters, while knowing the Iraqis are being slaughtered by Saddam, still oppose the war that will liberate the Iraqis from their random murders by their leader.

3. Protestors claim to be so concerned about the Iraqis.

4. However they oppose their liberation.

Doesn't make much sense to me. :(



My God, why do I even bother with this anymore? ::)

Quoting:


You worry about the Iraqi civilians now?  

Oh so thats why you are opposed to them being liberated. ::)  Hell if it were up to you protestors, we would just leave them alone and let our good ol buddy Saddam slaughter them.  

Thats how you show you are worried about them?

Make up your mind.  You can't have it both ways.



Let me get this straight:

1. Saddam slaughters his people on a daily basis, that is a known fact.

2. However protesters, while knowing the Iraqis are being slaughtered by Saddam, still oppose the war, which will liberate the Iraqis from their random murders from their leader.

3. Protestors claim to be so concerned about the Iraqis.

4. However they oppose their liberation.

Doesn't make much sense to me. :(
End Quote

There are a lot of people out there under the rule of opressive governments.  Are we to liberate them all?  What about North Korea?  What about Cuba?  What about Pakistan?  What about Iran and Syria?  What's so special about Iraq?

All together and say it with me---

O


I


L


Not to mention that blowing the Iraqis away is like how America used to set fire to villages in Vietnam because they were "saving them from communism".

Quoting:


There are a lot of people out there under the rule of opressive governments.  Are we to liberate them all?  What about North Korea?  What about Cuba?  What about Pakistan?  What about Iran and Syria?  What's so special about Iraq?

End Quote

hey, I'm up for it.

Are you?

Quoting:

Iraq will be free of Saddam Hussein.  They will have a choice of their new government.  Saddam will no longer be a threat to anyone, and that includes the USA.

End Quote

  I won't argue against that point, dagwood. But it does lead back to what is my central purpose with the topic,

- But that's part of the point: When has the warring way ever been effective in managing US interests in the Middle East and throughout the Arab world?
- What makes anyone think it will work this time?

  And that's my whole agenda with this; It is not, "You have the right to self-determination," but, "You have the right to agree with and rubber-stamp us."

  People tend to focus on the fact that Saddam Hussein is a bad guy. This is so acknowledged that I don't think even his most "trusted" circle can ignore it.

  But what's more important is what makes Saddam a bad guy: People are suffering needlessly.

  The present solution, while dressed in noble garb, does not have a solid historical precedent, and cannot be said to be the most efficient means to accompishing the more important goal, the reduction of suffering.

  Yes, we will unseat Saddam Hussein. Whether or not the people of Iraq are raised, how much they are raised, and how long it takes are far more interesting and important issues.

  Two cents.

Quoting:
Wasn't the original intention to disarm Saddam's arsenal of WMDs? Hypothetically speaking, what if they don't find any?
End Quote

Then some will be planted.  There's no way that Dubya is going to all this trouble and not find any WMDs.  If there are none, then they will be planted.  Who will be able to disprove it?  Everytime Iraqi civilians are killed, the military says the Iraqis are killing their own civilians.  

Quoting:


There are a lot of people out there under the rule of opressive governments.  Are we to liberate them all?  What about North Korea?  What about Cuba?  What about Pakistan?  What about Iran and Syria?  What's so special about Iraq?

All together and say it with me---

O


I


L


Not to mention that blowing the Iraqis away is like how America used to set fire to villages in Vietnam because they were "saving them from communism".
End Quote

Okay, if this war is PURELY about oil, then why is it only Iraq?  We get oil from many other countries, why are we invading only Iraq?  And, so what if it is?  The US is not the only country in the world that consumes oil.  Just as Iraq is not the only country in the world that sells it.  

Quoting:
Iraq
Well, the Iraqis will now have even less chance of being free.
They will still be oppressed, only now it will be with US consent. The Iraqis who are dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night to be tortured and killed will be reported in the US media as terrorists.
Sure, they'll be free to say bad things about Saddam but anyone who raises a voice against the US 'raping and pillaging' of their country......End Quote

The war is not over and you're already preaching this? Is there ever a time when the US is not in the wrong? I bet even when we eat, watch TV, and sleep, we're oppressing people ::)

Quoting:
The UN
The UN will no longer have any authority.  The US has demonstrated that it has no respect for the UN (or any form of international law) so noone else is likely to care what the UN says.End Quote

Lots of nations have little respect for the UN, not just the US, and they do it even more blatantly. What exactly is your case by singling out the US? Why not China, why not North Korea, Pakistan, India, Brazil, etc? The UN doesn't even hold authority in a place like Rwanda ::)

Quoting:
WMDs
Now everyone wants these to protect itself from US aggression.  North Korea has seen what happens when UN inspectors go in so it's not likely to allow that to happen.  Any country that is close to obtaining nuclear capability will rush towards it quickly before they are invaded by America.End Quote

Huh?

Quoting:America
All I can say is "watch out"!
Every Arab with a gun/bomb/pointy stick is after you now!
And why not, you've paved the way for pre-emptive strikes.  Using the same justification as you used in Iraq, China or Russia could launch a pre-emptive strike on the US "to remove a dangerous regime"End Quote

Pfft hahahaha. Okay, Moses ::)

Quoting:
Here's another side to things:

The Dollar vs the Euro in international trade

...or how the US can run a staggering trade deficit and print money to get themselves out of trouble because, and only because, oil trade is all in dollars; Iraq (presumably because of the French connection) was dealing in oil in Euros, a trend which if it expanded could have had pretty nasty consequences for the US economy... not that this could possibly be a reason for the invasion: after all, we know that it's because 1) Saddam is a nasty man, and 2) he might still have some of the WMD we sold him.


Phil
End Quote

Not bad. It's about time the Prez and his administration got to do some serious business. Nations (superpowers/empires) aren't built and maintained by letting your competitors have the upper hand. If our administration is not looking out for our best interests, who will? The British people? The Iraqis? The Arabs?

Quoting:
Iraq
Well, the Iraqis will now have even less chance of being free.
They will still be oppressed, only now it will be with US consent. The Iraqis who are dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night to be tortured and killed will be reported in the US media as terrorists.
Sure, they'll be free to say bad things about Saddam but anyone who raises a voice against the US 'raping and pillaging' of their country......

The UN
The UN will no longer have any authority.  The US has demonstrated that it has no respect for the UN (or any form of international law) so noone else is likely to care what the UN says.

WMDs
Now everyone wants these to protect itself from US aggression.  North Korea has seen what happens when UN inspectors go in so it's not likely to allow that to happen.  Any country that is close to obtaining nuclear capability will rush towards it quickly before they are invaded by America.

America
All I can say is "watch out"!
Every Arab with a gun/bomb/pointy stick is after you now!
And why not, you've paved the way for pre-emptive strikes.  Using the same justification as you used in Iraq, China or Russia could launch a pre-emptive strike on the US "to remove a dangerous regime"

IMO, the world is now a far more dangerous place than it was before.
End Quote

I agree with you 100% It is very scary out there.



Cat

Quoting:
Sounds to me like there are some people here with preemptive strike-envy.  ::)
End Quote

To avoid preemptive strike, I usually think about cold things, or baseball.

Quoting:


To avoid preemptive strike, I usually think about cold things, or baseball.


End Quote

LMAO!!!!!!

Quoting:
Gosh Darn it!  I've come to the conclusion from many posters on this board the the USofA in nothing but evil.  It seems that even what we thought were noble causes were only done for reasons of exploitation and amass wealth for the few.  
The time has come for all of us to aknowledge our evil ways and join this "New World Order" ourselelves.  Right here, right now I am demanding a personal check from Dick Cheney!  Thats right "Dick", I want some kick-back, kick-down, keep-clam or whatever you want to term it money.
Yep, we're evil, lets put that revelation behind us and start to divvy-up them goods!  Every US citizen needs to demand some compensation for participating is this evil empire.
Evildoers Unite! :D
End Quote

:o  I use to be a dyed in the wool cynic, then along came LBJ's famous announcement, and not too long after that came Tricky Dicky's.  Then, Gerald Ford (having spit out the gum and stopped trying to walk) spilt the beans about assasinating foreign  leaders, Congress investigated, Henry the K. was revealed as a liar, and the CIA was reigned in.

So, once we acknowledge that our Gov't has participated in some pretty sleezy s**t people may decide to do something about it, even try to stop it.  They know that, which is why lots of political activists have FBI files.  That's why Internal Passport legislation is being considered (the former head of the KBG is a paid consultant on this project - Ironic, the epitome of the Evil Empire a paid consultant).  Its not the average USians who are evil.  Its the crowds we elect into office, either the Yankees or the Cowboys - same aims, different tactics.  One  could go on...and on....and on.

I think we need to take back our democracy.  Might I suggest that a first step might be instant runoff voting?  And obviously regime change in Washington

Quoting:
No flames here, just my 2 cents.  

Iraq will be free of Saddam Hussein.  They will have a choice of their new government.  Saddam will no longer be a threat to anyone, and that includes the USA.

End Quote

No flames here either, Dag, and I hope you're right.  I would add to the optimistic scenario that other M.E. nations follow in the example of a democratic, pluralist, secular Iraq.  That would be great.  Then maybe North Korea would also see the light etc.  8) (picture these shades rose colored - sorry, couldn't resist)

On the other hand, and to add to Taoist's post, lots of people the world over 1) don't trust us because of the things our gov't has done in the past.  2) Don't share our values - like gender and racial equality (which we have not achieved, but certainly are getting there), or secular, pluralist society, or democracy (and I must say, I'm not sure how deeply WE hold these values). 3) view our consummerism as vulgar, gross, sinful, ie too secular.

So yeah, in the short term, Saddam will be gone, and his regime will be replaced.  The question is, then what?  And like Cat, I'm scared it will not be pretty.  Can't be optimistic about this one.  Hope I'm dead wrong!

Quoting:
I want my Dick Check!!!
Evildoers Unite! :D
End Quote

I WANT MY DICK......................CHECK!

Quoting:
This all comes so easily from the comfy chair of your office.

The day you're out there fighting rebels or foreign government forces and typing your winded diatribes from your mud hut that's running on a generator is the day I might give your words some weight. Otherwise, enjoy your comforts and your luxuries, which you can only get to enjoy in this empire, Sir. The same empire, which protects your freedom to rail against it. The same empire which afforded you the best education money can buy. The same empire where you can enjoy the fruits of your labor and actually manage to worry about other people's business. Yeah, that same empire that you live in and pay taxes to in order to keep it running!
End Quote

I'm really not sure why any of this has any relevance to the discussion.  Dag advanced an optimistic scenario for the end to this thing.  I suggested that there was another scenario.  So Twigger, whoever you are (I sent you an e-mail at you .gov address - is this how you spend your work day on the tax payer's dime?).  But your response is troubling because you seem to be saying that "my gov't, which I support with my tax $$, allows me to question its policies, and therefore I shouldn't.  Sorry, but if that's your point, it makes no sense.  If I got it wrong, you need to explain - and maybe on your own time?

Quoting:



I WANT MY DICK......................CHECK!
End Quote

ROTFLMAO  ;D Its free at the local clinic ;)  The other check goes to Halliburton  ;D  And Shaz, if you get the address for check requests, please pass it on. ;D

Quoting:



I WANT MY DICK......................CHECK!
End Quote

LMAO! ;D
Thanks Pop!

And Shaz, it is a graduated scale
Full Evil- 100%
Semi Evil- 75%
Quasi Evil-50%
Evil Lite- 2 beefsteaks & a free oil change at your neighborhood Jiffy Lube.

Quoting:


:o  I use to be a dyed in the wool cynic, then along came LBJ's famous announcement, and not too long after that came Tricky Dicky's.  Then, Gerald Ford (having spit out the gum and stopped trying to walk) spilt the beans about assasinating foreign  leaders, Congress investigated, Henry the K. was revealed as a liar, and the CIA was reigned in.

So, once we acknowledge that our Gov't has participated in some pretty sleezy s**t people may decide to do something about it, even try to stop it.  They know that, which is why lots of political activists have FBI files.  That's why Internal Passport legislation is being considered (the former head of the KBG is a paid consultant on this project - Ironic, the epitome of the Evil Empire a paid consultant).  Its not the average USians who are evil.  Its the crowds we elect into office, either the Yankees or the Cowboys - same aims, different tactics.  One  could go on...and on....and on.

I think we need to take back our democracy.  Might I suggest that a first step might be instant runoff voting?  And obviously regime change in Washington
End Quote

The reason I choose to fun-up the subjects at times DC is to communicate the absurdity of some debates/debaters toward blindly narrow views that fail to recognize alternatives towards anything be it better or worse coming out of the debated topic.
Ex- Goal of this war is to liberate Iraq from evil dictator.
Responce 1-But there are evil dictators in Korea, China, Brazil, Arizona, and Oakland City Hall and we never did anything for them, why Iraq?
Responce 2- US attmepted assaination attempts on world leader in the past, they have had secret currupt regimes that have exploited the rest of the poor working world, they house chemicals of mass destruction to sell to dictators so they can kick there butts later and make more sales.  Blah blah blah...

Issue that I take- Whatever the result of this conflict is we are bad, even if it's good, we are still going to be bad because the admin failed with it's bad intents.  If its really bad, that's even better cause then so many leftists were right.
Get it?

Quoting:

The reason I choose to fun-up the subjects at times DC is to communicate the absurdity of some debates/debaters toward blindly narrow views that fail to recognize alternatives towards anything be it better or worse coming out of the debated topic.
Ex- Goal of this war is to liberate Iraq from evil dictator.
Responce 1-But there are evil dictators in Korea, China, Brazil, Arizona, and Oakland City Hall and we never did anything for them, why Iraq?
Responce 2- US attmepted assaination attempts on world leader in the past, they have had secret currupt regimes that have exploited the rest of the poor working world, they house chemicals of mass destruction to sell to dictators so they can kick there butts later and make more sales.  Blah blah blah...

Issue that I take- Whatever the result of this conflict is we are bad, even if it's good, we are still going to be bad because the admin failed with it's bad intents.  If its really bad, that's even better cause then so many leftists were right.
Get it?

End Quote

Hay Dude,
Got the sarcasm and VERY DRY MARTINI humor.  Appreciate it.  No need to explain.  We're "simpatico" ;D

Quoting:


(I sent you an e-mail at you .gov address - is this how you spend your work day on the tax payer's dime?).  End Quote

But both were returned to me as undeliverable.  Surprise, surprise.  So who are you REALLY?  And why the secrecy.  Come  out of the (and I don't mean this sexually) closet.

Quoting:


Hay Dude,
Got the sarcasm and VERY DRY MARTINI humor.  Appreciate it.  No need to explain.  We're "simpatico" ;D
End Quote

Mi Amigo, Don Carlos. :)
Viva la Raza! :D

Quoting:
I don't have the Dick Check yet guys, but I hear you have to take a  test and show two proofs of identification  to find out what your evilness on the scale is anyway.  :( Sharpen your evil skills everybody! Shazzy needs a new pair of boo-whoops :-X
End Quote

Hay Shaz, I'd like to take the test, but I guess I need to know the rules and criteria.  I have ID, but How can I prove how evil I am?  I didn't "off Buffy", after all, nor - to be more serious, commit, or abvocate, or support, an act of terrorism against any of my beloved compatriotes. I think you have mistaken my questioning of our gov't's action as somehow unpatriotic.  I'm sorry for that.  Just as when I protested Vietnam, I do not protest the folks that are following orders.  Cat posted a very poinient lyric about the "troubles" in Ireland.  "The ones who give the orders are not the ones to die, ITS SCOTT AND MCDONNALD, AND THE LIKES OF YOU AND I.

And its "the likes of you and I" who are dying in Iraq, on both sides.  I'm past makeing judgements since its a done deal.  What next?  Can we find peace and justice?

Quoting:
I have no problem with getting Saddam out of power. I would have accepted a war against Iraq if we hadn't tripped over our cowboy boots trying to prove our case to the U.N. Our attitude was "we're right and you're wrong even though we haven't found any evidence" and that cost us a lot of support. France decided it wasn't going to be out pompoused by the U.S. so it firmly stood it's ground and refused to back our war. If we hadn't come across as a big shot superpower flexing it's might against a civilian population, we would have a real coalition going into Baghdad right now and everybody could be happy for the dictator's demise.

Why couldn't we have been a little more diplomatic?
End Quote

Quoting:
And don't tell me that 12 years of diplomacy failed. In those twelve years, no one was calling for war.
End Quote

oh boy.  Someone else want to field this one?  I'm getting bored arguing the same thing over and over and over with John. ::)  Its useless.

John, if you haven't got it by now, you probebely never will.  Sadly enough.

Quoting:

Issue that I take- Whatever the result of this conflict is we are bad, even if it's good, we are still going to be bad because the admin failed with it's bad intents.  If its really bad, that's even better cause then so many leftists were right.
Get it?

End Quote

  Friend Race, it's not about who's right...for me, at least...

  - We know that war brings a humanitarian crisis
  - The BBC story linked below does not increase my outrage simply because the situation is a mess
  - But what does upset me is that to follow the American version of it, this report must be false, because, well ....

Umm
Qasr aid effort 'a shambles' (BBC)

------------------------------------------------------------
  "I have just returned from working in Angola and never expected to see exactly the same sort of poverty in Iraq - a country floating on oil.

  From the TV pictures of Umm Qasr, I had been led to believe it was a town under control, where the needs of the people were being met.

  The town is not under control. It's like the Wild West. And even the most major humanitarian concern, water, is not being adequately administered ...." (Patrick Nicholson, CAFOD UK)
------------------------------------------------------------

  And in addition to a disastrous aid scheme, apparently there is a sense of frustration among the Iraqi people:

------------------------------------------------------------
  The hospital has been without water for three days. Inside people were very angry with me because I was a westerner. They felt angry, frustrated and let down by the coalition.

  Many had come to Umm Qasr from Basra because they had been told in American radio broadcasts that they would be looked after. They now say the coalition lied to them ....

....One young man angrily said to me: "You support us when the TV cameras and newspapers are here, to show the world you like us.

  "When they have gone you change. You have changed Saddam for another kind of imperialism."
------------------------------------------------------------

  That, for instance, is an ugly, ugly accusation.

  I keep wondering about the embedded reporters and the books they'll write after the war. Will the war look any different?

  Americans, please remember this phrase: Hi. I'm going to lie to you regularly. But that's no reason to not trust me.

  If this war is just, it should be conducted honestly. If this war is just, the people will not shrink away from its ugly costs.

  But on what degree of faith should we accept that the liars are telling the truth about anything?

  And here's a random side consideration: How "clean" is a war if the civilian population sustains heavier casualties than the noble invaders?

  (I'll have to dig up some numbers; the question is enough to make me officially curious.)

Quoting:




oh boy.  Someone else want to field this one?  I'm getting bored arguing the same thing over and over and over with John. ::)  Its useless.

John, if you haven't got it by now, you probebely never will.  Sadly enough.

End Quote

It's okay. I didn't expect an answer. By the way, I do get it. I know how diplomacy works. You don't make friends by blowing things up without getting the global "ok". That's my problem. You can say the UN is ineffective and we give them their budget and they're slow at doing everything...etc. but as far as war is concerned, you need the green light from them to make it easier for our liberatees to accept us as their liberators.

I "probebely" should have been more explicit in my first post.

Quoting:


No flames here either, Dag, and I hope you're right.  I would add to the optimistic scenario that other M.E. nations follow in the example of a democratic, pluralist, secular Iraq.  That would be great.  Then maybe North Korea would also see the light etc.  8) (picture these shades rose colored - sorry, couldn't resist)


End Quote

I hope I am right, too.  I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Quoting:
You can say the UN is ineffective and we give them their budget and they're slow at doing everything...etc. but as far as war is concerned, you need the green light from them to make it easier for our liberatees to accept us as their liberators.

End Quote

Yeah, like the UN's approval to go to war would've changed anything with Saddam ::)

Quoting:
  (I'll have to dig up some numbers; the question is enough to make me officially curious.)
End Quote

ISTM at the moment that the coalition forces have killed the most of each category of people, combatant or otherwise:
they've killed more Iraqi troops than the Iraqis (let's start on a positive note), but...
they've killed more coalition troops than the Iraqis (admittedly "friendly fire" incidents gain more press coverage, so the view might be skewed... )
they've killed more reporters (if John Simpson hadn't been extremely lucky, the BBC reporting would probably be of a very different tone)
they've killed more civilians... probably.  I must admit, for the number of shells and missiles that have been sent into Baghdad and other cities, the civilian casualties are much lower than I was expecting.  Though I do think that the Syrian TV station that broadcast pictures of the people killed when a bomb of some kind hit a market square, then tried telling their viewers that the Americans were intentionally targetting civilians was about as ridiculous as the Iraqi broadcasts saying "we're winning" - with 000,000s of troops and overwhelming firepower (not to mention MOABs and the like), if civilians were being targeted, there'd be nobody left alive in Baghdad by now...


Phil

Quoting:

they've killed more civilians... probably.  I must admit, for the number of shells and missiles that have been sent into Baghdad and other cities, the civilian casualties are much lower than I was expecting.  Though I do think that the Syrian TV station that broadcast pictures of the people killed when a bomb of some kind hit a market square, then tried telling their viewers that the Americans were intentionally targetting civilians was about as ridiculous as the Iraqi broadcasts saying "we're winning" - with 000,000s of troops and overwhelming firepower (not to mention MOABs and the like), if civilians were being targeted, there'd be nobody left alive in Baghdad by now...


Phil
End Quote

I think that a big part of this is due to the technology.  They can hit a specific building as opposed to an area.  

Quoting:

they've killed more reporters (if John Simpson hadn't been extremely lucky, the BBC reporting would probably be of a very different tone)
End Quote

I think the only reason for this is that there are SO many compared to other wars.  Sorry, but I have a problem with civilian reporters travelling with the troops.  Yeah, makes for good television and more "up to date" reporting, but what would they do in a gun battle?  How many of them are actually trained in the use of weapons?

Quoting:
Sorry, but I have a problem with civilian reporters travelling with the troops.  Yeah, makes for good television and more "up to date" reporting, but what would they do in a gun battle?  How many of them are actually trained in the use of weapons?
End Quote

Personally, I think it's way over the top, but what I meant was that the coalition forces have killed more reporters than the Iraqis have, which you might expect to be the other way round given the number of reporters travelling *with* our guys.

Phil

Quoting:
Iraq
Well, the Iraqis will now have even less chance of being free.
They will still be oppressed, only now it will be with US consent. The Iraqis who are dragged out of their homes in the middle of the night to be tortured and killed will be reported in the US media as terrorists.
Sure, they'll be free to say bad things about Saddam but anyone who raises a voice against the US 'raping and pillaging' of their country......

The UN
The UN will no longer have any authority.  The US has demonstrated that it has no respect for the UN (or any form of international law) so noone else is likely to care what the UN says.

WMDs
Now everyone wants these to protect itself from US aggression.  North Korea has seen what happens when UN inspectors go in so it's not likely to allow that to happen.  Any country that is close to obtaining nuclear capability will rush towards it quickly before they are invaded by America.

America
All I can say is "watch out"!
Every Arab with a gun/bomb/pointy stick is after you now!
And why not, you've paved the way for pre-emptive strikes.  Using the same justification as you used in Iraq, China or Russia could launch a pre-emptive strike on the US "to remove a dangerous regime"

IMO, the world is now a far more dangerous place than it was before.
End Quote

It's quite frightening.  America has now set a precedent for other countries to pre-emptively strike.  India is already planning to carve up Pakistan using the same justification we did with Iraq.

Quoting:


It's quite frightening.  America has now set a precedent for other countries to pre-emptively strike.  India is already planning to carve up Pakistan using the same justification we did with Iraq.
End Quote

Woohooo! I want tickets. Got em at ticketmaster? Normally I am a Yankee fan, but this sounds interesting too. Do they have the same rules as the NL or the AL?  ;D

Quoting:


Woohooo! I want tickets. Got em at ticketmaster? Normally I am a Yankee fan, but this sounds interesting too. Do they have the same rules as the NL or the AL?  ;D
End Quote

Why do you act like this?

Quoting:


Woohooo! I want tickets. Got em at ticketmaster? Normally I am a Yankee fan, but this sounds interesting too. Do they have the same rules as the NL or the AL?  ;D
End Quote

Ooooh, ooooh, I will bet on my mother country, Pakistan!

Shame on you, Indian prime minister!  You are a bad man!  A velly velly bad man!

http://www.jp3d.net/yahoo/images/new/58.gif

Quoting:


Woohooo! I want tickets. Got em at ticketmaster? Normally I am a Yankee fan, but this sounds interesting too. Do they have the same rules as the NL or the AL?  ;D
End Quote

If India and Pakistan really do go to war, it will be a nuclear conflict.

Quoting:


It's quite frightening.  America has now set a precedent for other countries to pre-emptively strike.  India is already planning to carve up Pakistan using the same justification we did with Iraq.
End Quote

I also made this point.  And its not just India & Pakistan.  Bejing has claimed Taiwan since the revolution.  We have armed Taiwan to the teeth with conventionals, and are pledged to defend it.  CHINA HAS NUkES too!  World war three here we come...(to the tune of Califoirnia here we come...)

Quoting:
Yes, we're all sure of that one. China is run by a cadre of nihilists hell-bent on world destruction.
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The chinese have challenged US forces in the area on several occasions.  They could very well decide to push the limits to see how far we would let them go, and use our Iraq arguments to justify their actions.  I have no crystal ball, but then, no one else does either.  My point, and others made it too, is that the world has become a much more dangerous place recently.

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The chinese have challenged US forces in the area on several occasions.  They could very well decide to push the limits to see how far we would let them go, and use our Iraq arguments to justify their actions.  I have no crystal ball, but then, no one else does either.  My point, and others made it too, is that the world has become a much more dangerous place recently.
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Has the world ever been a safe place to habitate? Was it safer in the 1930s? In the 40s? 50s, 60s, 80s? Was it safer during the Middle Ages? Pardon my bluntness, but I just can't see where you're going with this. Where do you and the doomsayers fit into all this to make a claim of living more dangerously? You have a lot in common with the extreme right-wing in almost always supposing on the absolute worst-case scenarios and when it comes to jumping quickly to discredit the government in protecting our liberties and our interests. I don't have a crystal ball either, but conspiracy theories are not going to prevail and cloud my thought process.

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Has the world ever been a safe place to habitate? Was it safer in the 1930s? In the 40s? 50s, 60s, 80s? Was it safer during the Middle Ages? Pardon my bluntness, but I just can't see where you're going with this. Where do you and the doomsayers fit into all this to make a claim of living more dangerously? You have a lot in common with the extreme right-wing in almost always supposing on the absolute worst-case scenarios and when it comes to jumping quickly to discredit the government in protecting our liberties and our interests. I don't have a crystal ball either, but conspiracy theories are not going to prevail and cloud my thought process.
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There were efforts to make the world a safer place.  Thats what the UN is all about.  For it to work, as we saw throughout the cold war, the super powers had to pay it some heed - and both the US and USSR did.  Now, and if you read the PUBLIC statements issued by "The Project for an American Century", ie Wolfowitz, Olson, Cheney, Kristol, Bennet, et al, you will see that they advocated abandoning that approach and taking a totally unilateral, hegemonist (imperialist) approach to foreign affairs.  This isn't "conspiracy theory", this is what they say!  They have little Georgie's ear.  Little Georgie does what they say - as is obvious at this point.

AS to protecting our rights, might I suggest you read the first few "laws" passed in Germany right after Hitler became Chancellor and the Patriot Act?  The German laws were worse by far, but the similarities are frightening.

I'm not suggesting that we are headed for fascism.  It really isn't necessary because so many people are willing to just sit back and go along.  "Just don't mess with my Sienfeld".

You refer to "our interests" in the collective.  Can you identify them for me?  I have interests that I share with many people, but not all people in this country.  In fact, the interests of some groups are, I think, diametrically opposed to mine. "War is good for business, invest your children".