Quoting:
In 1997 a group of far right wingers like Bill Bennett, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and Donald Rumsfeld sent a letter to President Bill Clinton,.......urging him to invade Iraq.  Read it and see how this war was planned years before Dubya even took office.  It has NOTHING to do with Setpember 11th.  If anything, Osama bin Laden did Bush a favor, since he gave him a terrorist card to use to sell this war to the American people.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

That same group of nutballs also sent a letter to Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqletter1998.htm

This plan was rightly rejected as being utterly insanse.

In 1992, Paul Wolfowitz came up with the basic outline of the Iraq war we have today:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/etc/wolf.html


This war has been in planning for over a decade.  It has been in planning by these far right lunatics like Bill Bennett, Richard Pele, and Paul Wolfowitz, who feel that the planet as a whole must be Americanizied if it is to proceed further.      
End Quote

THANK YOU  I have been refering to this stuff (in print sources) for many posts and got no response - or, apparently readership.  Maybe with these sites people here will wake up to the grand design for the new United States empire that these - neo fasists? - can't think of a better term - are planning.  Lots of people need to wake up and realize that this bunch in the White House is willing to sacrifice our young people to achieve their aim of world domination.

Quoting:
I could post several articles from The Right Wing News and other sources.....if you post something from a site that has no spin I might take you more seriously.  ::)
End Quote

What spin?  The first two links come from the PNAC!!!  That's THEIR OWN site!  Those are the letters they sent to President Clinton, Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott in the 90's urging an invasion of Iraq.

The third one that outlines Paul Wolfowitz's plan from 1992 is from PBS, who are quite objective.  

Quoting:


What spin?  The first two links come from the PNAC!!!  That's THEIR OWN site!  Those are the letters they sent to President Clinton, Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott in the 90's urging an invasion of Iraq.

The third one that outlines Paul Wolfowitz's plan from 1992 is from PBS, who are quite objective.  
End Quote

I could post several instances of "socialists" websites that look absolutey insane.

And I am not a member of the PNAC, Paul. So what, exactly, are you trying to point out with your posts. Please, explain, as I am obviously an obtuse and ignorant conservative? What is your point? What are you trying to say. Spell it out for me will ya? In BIG BOLD letters?  :-/

I didn't understand your post when you compared Bush and our American troops to a Star Wars movie either.....

Quoting:
I didn't understand your post when you compared Bush and our American troops to a Star Wars movie either.....
End Quote

Hey!  Don't knock starwars, It was a fine movie  ;D

Quoting:

I could post several instances of "socialists" websites that look absolutey insane.

And I am not a member of the PNAC, Paul. So what, exactly, are you trying to point out with your posts. Please, explain, as I am obviously an obtuse and ignorant conservative? What is your point? What are you trying to say. Spell it out for me will ya? In BIG BOLD letters?  :-/End Quote

Shaz, please I never said anything of the sort of you being "an obtuse and ignorant conservative".  Nor did I say you were a member of the PNAC.  I did say it was their website, and I did say this was the extreme far right that is all behind this.  

Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, and many others formed the "Project for the New American Century".  This group is primarily about expanding American imperalism to every corner of the Earth that Paul Wolfowotiz outlined in his draft for the invasion of Iraq from 1992 in the link I provided you.  

PBS's Frontline has more information about it here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/


Now do you understand?  Do you see how this group of less then 25 people have been itchy for a war with Iraq since the early 1990's?  It was clearly demonstrated in both the letters to former President Clinton, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and Senator Trent Lott.  Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott aren't exactly bleeding heart liberal hippies are they?  But even they saw the insanity of this plan.  Ofcourse the "vital interest" they speak of the in the Gulf is OIL.  This is also a War for OIL, make no mistake about that.

Who can seriously believe President Bush Jr. when he tells us that he's invading Iraq to stop terrorism or find Weapons of Mass Destruction?  Who can believe Dubya when he says that is doing this to "liberate" the people of Iraq?  HE'S NOT!!  Dubya is just the puppet mouthpiece of these far right wing lunatics.  Dubya is just doing what these guys have wanted to do for over a decade.  They were going to invade Iraq even if September 11th hadn't happened.  Though it would have been much harder for them to sell such a war to the American people without the 9-11/terrorist card they constantly play.    

Our country shouldn't work this way.  It has checks and balances.  Such a small group of lunatics shouldn't be able to weild this much unchecked power.  These extreme right nutballs have seized control of the power structure of the United States, and now are firmly on their way to remaking the planet in their sick and twisted image.  Our country and it's relationship with the rest of the planet is being determined by a group of of less then 25 people, whose insane views are completely out of sync with at least half of Americans (if not more), and most of the planet.  I have heard several Republicans/conservatives that proclaim their disgust about all of this and they hate Dubya's constant war mongering talk and the present invasion of Iraq over some stupid "hypothetical future attack" on the United States.  Saddam Huessein and Iraq has neither the means, will, or the ability to deliver an attack on the United States.  And why aren't we going after every two bit dictator in the world?  What about North Korea?  North Korea DOES HAVE nuclear weapons and long range missles that can reach the West Coast of the United states.  NK has stated in the past they would like to see America reduced to a "sea of fire".  If this is all about terrorism/security, then why aren't we going after NK?  The far more dangerous threat?  What about Fidel Castro in Cuba?  There are many dictators in the world, are we to oust every one of them?  One dictator at a time?  

So how did America, the most powerful country in the world come under the control of these fringe lunatics?  Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz are the primary architects of this plan.  Perle is a part of a group that wants to see the United Nations torn down, and simply reduced to a "chatter box on the Hudson", as the UN is a threat to American imperialism.  These guys will not stop until America sits atop the world, unquestiond, unchecked, and unstoppable as supreme rulers----like so many other ambitious madmen of the past.  The invasion of Iraq has done nothing but rouse up anti-Americanisim across the globe, and extremist Muslims hate us even more now then ever.  Dubya has created 1,000 Osama bin Ladens with his actions.  We are most certainly down the path to a great war with the USA/Israel and the Muslim world thanks to the actions of these fringe lunatics.  Our country should not work this way.  We shouldn't be controlled by such a small group of fringe war mongers. Unfortunately Congress has been cowed into silence by the terrorist/9-11/Patriotic American card, which has been MASTERFULLY  used.  As such, no one is checking or balancing the Bush Jr. Adminstration, possibly the most reckless, ruthless, and unchecked adminstration we have seen in the past century.  Whether you are a Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative, this should really frighten you. Though I'm sure there will still be those that choose to ignore all this, their allegiance to Bush Jr. will remain unquestioned.  But this is NOT how America should be working.
 

Quoting:
I didn't understand your post when you compared Bush and our American troops to a Star Wars movie either.....
End Quote

I was joking. You know, Darth Sidious/The Emperor, as well as Darth Tyrannus/Count Dooku, and the whole manufactured war that those characters create in the Star Wars prequels.  It's still a serious issue nonetheless.  

We have renamed French Fries into "Freedom Fries" because we dissaprove of the French veto on this war and not joining our cowboy war mongering.  To quote Saturday Night Live, perhaps the French should rename American Cheese into "Idiot Cheese".
 

Quoting:


Shaz, please I never said anything of the sort of you being "an obtuse and ignorant conservative".  Nor did I say you were a member of the PNAC.  I did say it was their website, and I did say this was the extreme far right that is all behind this.  

Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, and many others formed the "Project for the New American Century".  This group is primarily about expanding American imperalism to every corner of the Earth that Paul Wolfowotiz outlined in his draft for the invasion of Iraq from 1992 in the link I provided you.  

PBS's Frontline has more information about it here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/


Now do you understand?  Do you see how this group of less then 25 people have been itchy for a war with Iraq since the early 1990's?  It was clearly demonstrated in both the letters to former President Clinton, former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and Senator Trent Lott.  Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott aren't exactly bleeding heart liberal hippies are they?  But even they saw the insanity of this plan.  Ofcourse the "vital interest" they speak of the in the Gulf is OIL.  This is also a War for OIL, make no mistake about that.

Who can seriously believe President Bush Jr. when he tells us that he's invading Iraq to stop terrorism or find Weapons of Mass Destruction?  Who can believe Dubya when he says that is doing this to "liberate" the people of Iraq?  HE'S NOT!!  Dubya is just the puppet mouthpiece of these far right wing lunatics.  Dubya is just doing what these guys have wanted to do for over a decade.  They were going to invade Iraq even if September 11th hadn't happened.  Though it would have been much harder for them to sell such a war to the American people without the 9-11/terrorist card they constantly play.    

Our country shouldn't work this way.  It has checks and balances.  Such a small group of lunatics shouldn't be able to weild this much unchecked power.  These extreme right nutballs have seized control of the power structure of the United States, and now are firmly on their way to remaking the planet in their sick and twisted image.  Our country and it's relationship with the rest of the planet is being determined by a group of of less then 25 people, whose insane views are completely out of sync with at least half of Americans (if not more), and most of the planet.  I have heard several Republicans/conservatives that proclaim their disgust about all of this and they hate Dubya's constant war mongering talk and the present invasion of Iraq over some stupid "hypothetical future attack" on the United States.  Saddam Huessein and Iraq has neither the means, will, or the ability to deliver an attack on the United States.  And why aren't we going after every two bit dictator in the world?  What about North Korea?  North Korea DOES HAVE nuclear weapons and long range missles that can reach the West Coast of the United states.  NK has stated in the past they would like to see America reduced to a "sea of fire".  If this is all about terrorism/security, then why aren't we going after NK?  The far more dangerous threat?  What about Fidel Castro in Cuba?  There are many dictators in the world, are we to oust every one of them?  One dictator at a time?  

So how did America, the most powerful country in the world come under the control of these fringe lunatics?  Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz are the primary architects of this plan.  Perle is a part of a group that wants to see the United Nations torn down, and simply reduced to a "chatter box on the Hudson", as the UN is a threat to American imperialism.  These guys will not stop until America sits atop the world, unquestiond, unchecked, and unstoppable as supreme rulers----like so many other ambitious madmen of the past.  The invasion of Iraq has done nothing but rouse up anti-Americanisim across the globe, and extremist Muslims hate us even more now then ever.  Dubya has created 1,000 Osama bin Ladens with his actions.  We are most certainly down the path to a great war with the USA/Israel and the Muslim world thanks to the actions of these fringe lunatics.  Our country should not work this way.  We shouldn't be controlled by such a small group of fringe war mongers. Unfortunately Congress has been cowed into silence by the terrorist/9-11/Patriotic American card, which has been MASTERFULLY  used.  As such, no one is checking or balancing the Bush Jr. Adminstration, possibly the most reckless, ruthless, and unchecked adminstration we have seen in the past century.  Whether you are a Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative, this should really frighten you. Though I'm sure there will still be those that choose to ignore all this, their allegiance to Bush Jr. will remain unquestioned.  But this is NOT how America should be working.
 

I was joking. You know, Darth Sidious/The Emperor, as well as Darth Tyrannus/Count Dooku, and the whole manufactured war that those characters create in the Star Wars prequels.  It's still a serious issue nonetheless.  

We have renamed French Fries into "Freedom Fries" because we dissaprove of the French veto on this war and not joining our cowboy war mongering.  To quote Saturday Night Live, perhaps the French should rename American Cheese into "Idiot Cheese".
 
End Quote

VERY impressive, Paul.  I do believe that Bush & Co. are a danger to the Constitution, a danger to our long term security, and a danger to the world.  You haave provided lots of evidence supporting that.

Quoting:
What evidence?  ???

A letter from someone who isn't the President making the decisions means nothing to me. Where is the smoking gun? Is this pointing to a conspiracy theory that I just am not seeing?
End Quote

Shaz, first, read the Wolfowitz material, then compare it to what's going on RIGHT NOW.  If you can't smell the gun powder, then you need to have your aulfactory senses tested. ;D  Seriously, there was a recent "frontline" on PBS that took the whole ness back to Bush 41 and brought it up to date.  You will find it very interesting, and I think, persuasive.  
There are none so blind as they who refuse to see :o

Quoting:


Shaz, first, read the Wolfowitz material, then compare it to what's going on RIGHT NOW.  If you can't smell the gun powder, then you need to have your aulfactory senses tested. ;D  Seriously, there was a recent "frontline" on PBS that took the whole ness back to Bush 41 and brought it up to date.  You will find it very interesting, and I think, persuasive.  
There are none so blind as they who refuse to see :o
End Quote

And an ounce of pretention is worth a pound of manure.


Don't tell me what to read and not read. There are examples of far left and far right all over the World Wide Web. Both IMO do noone justice, and are only there for fodder so people can sling crap at each other. You talk about how much you want peace, you aren't about peace because all that you do is argue with everyone else. The examples that are being thrown out here are not PROOF POSITIVE. Now, I am back to ignoring you and your comments.

Quoting:


And an ounce of pretention is worth a pound of manure.


Don't tell me what to read and not read. There are examples of far left and far right all over the World Wide Web. Both IMO do noone justice, and are only there for fodder so people can sling crap at each other. You talk about how much you want peace, you aren't about peace because all that you do is argue with everyone else. The examples that are being thrown out here are not PROOF POSITIVE. Now, I am back to ignoring you and your comments.
End Quote

You may not know it, but Paul Wolfowitz is the assistant Sec. of Defense under Rumsfeld.  Richard Pearle just resigned as Rumsfelds special assistant because of a conflict of interests.  So the things that these people say, and have said, no matter where you find  them, are not just the ramblings of kooks, but are the thinking and plans of Georgie's closest advisors.  I repeat, these are not just assorted web sites but the ideas and plans of White House insiders. Its not there ideology thats at issue, but the policies they are pursuing.

"Proof positive" of what?  Are you saying that when Wolfowitz wrote that 1991 document advocating pre-emptive strikes and an invasion of Iraq he was kidding, and didn't believe it?  His writing IS proof positive of his thinking, which obviously has now become U.S. foreign policy, since we did launch a pre-emptive strike against Iraq, and Georgie has hinted that this is just the first one.

Read what you want, I really couldn't give a flying flip, but those who wish to be well informed DO read.  Therre is a wonderful cut on a tape I have from a book called Remembering Slaver, Smithsonian 1998 I think, in which you black woman (PhD) recounts her memory of learning how her grandfather's eyes were put out by his overseer because he was trying to learn to READ.  Its worth a listen.

Quoting:Richard Pearle just resigned as Rumsfelds special assistant because of a conflict of interests.  End Quote

you conveniently left out the reason for his resgnation.

It was his personal decision to resign as to not create a conlfict of interest with his other job during a time of war.  It has absolutely nothign to do with your little conspiracy theory.  


But seriously Paul S and Don Carlos, keep this thread going, its hilarious.  It reminds me of a movie I saw starring Mel Gibson called..."Conspiracy Theory". ::)  I showed this thread to some people here at work today and they all busted out laughing and collectively agreed how sad it is that some people base all their convictions on a conspiracy theory. You guys are 2 peas-in-a-pod.  

Oh well, if thats what gets you 2 through the day... ::)


I'm curious Carlos, is this the kind of crap you teach your students?(if in fact you are actually a teacher)

Quoting:


you conveniently left out the reason for his resgnation.

It was his personal decision to resign as to not create a conlfict of interest with his other job during a time of war.  It has absolutely nothign to do with your little conspiracy theory.  


But seriously Paul S and Don Carlos, keep this thread going, its hilarious.  It reminds me of a movie I saw starring Mel Gibson called..."Conspiracy Theory". ::)  I showed this thread to some people here at work today and they all busted out laughing and collectively agreed how sad it is that some people base all their convictions on a conspiracy theory. You guys are 2 peas-in-a-pod.  

Oh well, if thats what gets you 2 through the day... ::)


I'm curious Carlos, is this the kind of crap you teach your students?(if in fact you are actually a teacher)
End Quote

Thank you for your cruelty.

It's not a "conspiracy theory".  If I posted articles from The Nation, then you could accuse me of posting liberal propaganda.  But this stuff comes directly from the PNAC, and reliable centrist media sources like PBS and CNN/TIME.  Why won't you respond to what's going on here without making nasty remarks?

Quoting:
And blah blah blah so on so forth. Japanese people lips flapping:

AIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! It is a conspiracy! RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!GODZILLA IS BEHIND THE WAR EFFORT! iT IS REALLY GODZILLA AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! HE HAS BEEN PLANNING THIS SINCE 1969! I CAN SHOW YOU A WEBSITE THAT PROVES IT!"

::) ;D
End Quote

Nice.

Quoting:


Nice.
End Quote

I thought so.  :D

Can't wait for the sequel. Be sure to hook us up to the link, ok?  ;D

Quoting:


I thought so.  :D

Can't wait for the sequel. Be sure to hook us up to the link, ok?  ;D
End Quote

::)

Quoting:


:rolleyes:


End Quote

Rolleyes? Where can I buy those? Is that a person, place, thing or condition of the climate?

Quoting:


Rolleyes? Where can I buy those? Is that a person, place, thing or condition of the climate?
End Quote

Dude what is your problem?

Quoting:
Why won't you respond to what's going on here without making nasty remarks?
End Quote

Oh I've seen it all now.

Paul S. accusing others of making nasty remarks.  

It holds no water after your little incident a few days ago in the other thread, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure you do. ;)


And to answer your question:  Simple, I'm an a**hole.  Get used to it.  :P

Quoting:


Oh I've seen it all now.

Paul S. accusing others of making nasty remarks.  
End Quote

Now, if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black... ::)

Quoting:
To get away from the insults that have been flying around hot and heavy and get back on track...

I'm betting that we will soon be hearing a rehash of General Patton's argument after the collapse of Germany.  He wanted to rearm the Germans, combine them with the allied forces already on the ground, and continue east to Moscow.  So the army is in Iraq.  Iran next?  Why not?  It sure would fit the axis of evil rhetoric and the ultra right agenda.  Any takers?
End Quote

But was the Moscow expedition ever done? No. So Patton's idea was only that - an idea.

As far as Iran goes. Sure, why not? It's not just the "ultra-right," but the Iranians themselves who want those radical Islamic @$$hole$ overthrown (and guess who supports these guys? The same nations who supported Iraq and were against the strike against Iraq in the first place).

At least, now, Hezbollah has one less major supporter, so that may help in the Middle East...

Quoting:


But was the Moscow expedition ever done? No. So Patton's idea was only that - an idea.

As far as Iran goes. Sure, why not? It's not just the "ultra-right," but the Iranians themselves who want those radical Islamic @$$hole$ overthrown (and guess who supports these guys? The same nations who supported Iraq and were against the strike against Iraq in the first place).

At least, now, Hezbollah has one less major supporter, so that may help in the Middle East...
End Quote

So I take it that you favor another "pre-emptive" strike?  And after that one?  On to North Korea - no, they actually HAVE nukes and ARE a threat.  I  guess it must be Cuba then.  Gotta get at those dangerous "ceeegars".

So much, I guess, for being a peaceloving nation.  Back to 19th Century gingoism and imperialism.  My reading of history would indicate that we might get a Century before some other nation or coalition gangs up against us and takes us down.  I'll be gone, but my grandkids will be around!

Quoting:


So I take it that you favor another "pre-emptive" strike?  And after that one?  On to North Korea - no, they actually HAVE nukes and ARE a threat.  I  guess it must be Cuba then.  Gotta get at those dangerous "ceeegars".

So much, I guess, for being a peaceloving nation.  Back to 19th Century gingoism and imperialism.  My reading of history would indicate that we might get a Century before some other nation or coalition gangs up against us and takes us down.  I'll be gone, but my grandkids will be around!
End Quote

That is what superpowers/empires do, Don Carlos. It is a reason why this is a wealthy and powerful nation. It was not built on altruism. You've studied history, so you, of all people, should know. Peaceloving nation? Name one nation (that has an approximate 280 million inhabitants) in recent history that has achieved as much wealth and power as the United States through isolationism? You're in a funny predicament. You are ready and willing to speak of all the faults, but hardly ever acknowledge the tremendous feats it took to build this nation and secure your life with the luxuries it comes with (there is nothing you have touched and enjoyed that is not tainted with the oppression and suffering of your fellow man). I wish things could be solved peacefully (who doesn't?), but you do partake in this nation. You are directly and indirectly helping in its tactics. You are allowed your opinion - this nation guarantees you that liberty - but it's weightless coming from the mouth of the guest of honour at the USA banquet.

Quoting:


That is what superpowers/empires do, Don Carlos. It is a reason why this is a wealthy and powerful nation. It was not built on altruism. You've studied history, so you, of all people, should know. Peaceloving nation? Name one nation (that has an approximate 280 million inhabitants) in recent history that has achieved as much wealth and power as the United States through isolationism? You're in a funny predicament. You are ready and willing to speak of all the faults, but hardly ever acknowledge the tremendous feats it took to build this nation and secure your life with the luxuries it comes with (there is nothing you have touched and enjoyed that is not tainted with the oppression and suffering of your fellow man). I wish things could be solved peacefully (who doesn't?), but you do partake in this nation. You are directly and indirectly helping in its tactics. You are allowed your opinion - this nation guarantees you that liberty - but it's weightless coming from the mouth of the guest of honour at the USA banquet.
End Quote

Some of what you say is very true.  I do live better than perhapes  98% of the people of this world, and I guess that does make me a "guest of honor" on a world scale.  Certainly not in the US. You are certainly right when you say "nothing you have touched...is not tainted with the oppression of your fellow man".  

There is much that I am willing to give up to allieviate that oppression.  You are right to point out that "no nation is built on altruism" - nor should any of them be.

I think our disagreement can be seen on two levels.  First, I think that nations can cooperate to find mutually beneficial solutions to their disparate problems.  For example, how much more "stuff" could we sell to the Brazilians if Brazilian workers earned better wages, and fewer of them were impoverished to the point of starvation?  Second, and I'm by no means religious, I respectfully submit that I take the Biblical admonition to be "my brother's keeper" more seriously than you appear to.  As Howard Zinn wrote "the cry of the poor may not be just, but those who don't listen to the cry of the poor will never know what justice is".  I guess, than, that I am just more of an idealist than you are.  To paraphrase Robert Kennedy: some see reality and say "so it is, so it must be" I see reality and ask "why not make it better" (I know I'm stretching the quote, its poetic licence).

Quoting:
Twigger/Smurf,

Either stop with the insults or you'll be banned. Yes, even guests can be banned. Had you been a member, I would have been able to send you a private message about this. Don't re-post the second time deleted post again.
End Quote

GO GETUM Hairspray!  You go girl/guy!  ;)