Quoting:
We're ticked off. We want to show how ticked off we are about going to war. We use our constitutional right to get organized and be ticked off.
End Quote

I don't believe you answered Dag's question, JH.

I'm interested in your answer as well.  ;)

Quoting:
I don't think it will achieve anything. I can still be angry about it, can't I? I'm protesting because I'm angry that I can't change anything.
End Quote

You can be angry till the day you die, and I'm sure some people will be, and thats fine.

However, causing near-riot situations in the streets, breaking and damaging property, blocking traffic, and most of all tying up police officers that should be elsehwere doing their job, is a really ridiculous way to show your dislike for the situation.

Perhaps, if the protesters really wanted to make a difference and promote humanity, they could divert all the time and energy they spend pi**ing people off in the streets into maybe organize food/clothing drives for the Iraqis or something similar.  In other words, they could be doing something that will actually make a difference.

Quoting:
You mean you can't protest and feed starving children at the same time?
End Quote

how many Iraqis do you help by walking in the street blocking traffic, breaking things, and tying up police officers?

Zip, zero, zilch, nadda...


In additon, how many troops do you make feel like they are over there fighting in vain by walking in the streets, blocking traffic, breaking things, and tying up police officers?

Thousands.

In a time when our troops need every little bit of support for morale from us to show them we are pulling for and thinking of them them, protestors seem to ignore that.

Quoting:


blocking traffic, breaking things, and tying up police officers?

End Quote

Did I ever say that was ok? That's not a good thing. That's a bad thing. Protesting in itself is a good thing. My younger sister had a friend by the name of Samiya who moved back to Iraq prior to this war. I just think people like her should not be killed because we don't have the patience to get rid of Saddam some other way.

Quoting:
My younger sister had a friend by the name of Samiya who moved back to Iraq prior to this war. I just think people like her should not be killed because we don't have the patience to get rid of Saddam some other way.
End Quote

well possibly we should have just sat back and let Saddam do it then, right?  Not to mention the other 1000 people he would have killed this month.

Quoting:
In North Korea millions of people are dying of starvation because Kim Jong-il won't let humanitarian aid get to his people. Shouldn't we be concerned with someone who is a real threat to other countries?
End Quote

oh boy.  

I'm at a loss of words.  I seriously don't know what you really want, and I don't think you do either.  You want to deal with Kim Jong-il, but not the murdering dictator Saddam, who is also stealing the aid to build statues to himself and his many palaces?  

Maybe you would like to go to Iraq and tell the celebrating civilians that you don't want them to be liberated.  I'm sure they would really appreciate that a lot. ::)

Quoting:
I don't think we should go to war with either country. I'm just pointing out that we are not going after the worst guy out there.
End Quote

**dragging off topic**
Ok, the monster puts his people in plastic shredders if they disagree with him.  I saw an interview with Barbara Walters and 5 Iraqi women saying this, also, there is the report from the Reverand that went to be a human shield.  Then he talked to the people in Iraq who told him the same thing.  Shouldn't he be stopped?
**drag back on topic**

Quoting:
I don't think it will achieve anything. I can still be angry about it, can't I? I'm protesting because I'm angry that I can't change anything.
End Quote

So why don't you take some of that anger and throw it into support behind the brave men and women who are doing the best job they can over there-every day?

Quoting:
I am proud of our arms services. I am embarassed at how they are being used by our leadership. George W. has some nerve to think that he has justification for this war.
End Quote

Then what do you think the armed services should be used for?  And honestly, what is so embarrasing about it? :-/

Quoting:
Then what do you think the armed services should be used for?
End Quote

That's kind of a worrying logic: we've got big armies, let's go and use 'em.  Too dangerous to do our fighting at home, off to Iraq we go.

Phil

Quoting:
What protesters hope to achieve is increasing pressure on Mr Bush and his cronies to stop this stupidity.  During the American Revolution some one observed that one man defending his country was worth at leat 10 mercenaries.  I looks like that's what we are encountering in Iraq.  So it looks like another quagmire, a desert version of Vietnam.  Look out for the body bad :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( Especial ours,, but also theirs.  Good Godess, what idiocy!!!
End Quote

Good Whatever, look who is being the idiot now! DO you REALLY want the Coalition to PULL OUT now? SO that the monster Dictator can punish ALL OF THOSE IRAQIS WHO ARE standing up to him? CAN you really say that you are "for" the people after you said the above? You are a hypocrite, and what in the world is a "body bad"??? ?

Quoting:
What protesters hope to achieve is increasing pressure on Mr Bush and his cronies to stop this stupidity.  End Quote

Below is a quote from you from a couple days ago:

Quoting:
The guy is a bloody dictator, and I wish that the people of Iraq had been able to get rid of him.  Too bad that George 1st didn't have the gonads to help them do so.  End Quote

And now, you want Bush Jr. to end this war now, without finishing the job?   ::)


Do you realize what happened to the few that did rise up against Saddam after we pulled out of Iraq following the cease-fire?  They were slaughtered by the thousands!  And you want that to happen again???


Don Carlos, its really hard for people to comprehend you when you are constantly contradicting everything you say!

Quoting:
Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
End Quote

As true today.....

Quoting:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

-- Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
End Quote

History is merely repeating itself in the current war in Iraq. Since the huge march on Washington in February, a huge propaganda campaign has been launched. Support for the war went from 50% to 75%. All he had to do was manipulate a few emotions and pro-peace people are seen as the terrorists. Let me know when we're allowed to be against war again.

Quoting:


History is merely repeating itself in the current war in Iraq. End Quote

It has a way of doing that.  

Quoting:Since the huge march on Washington in February, a huge propaganda campaign has been launched. Support for the war went from 50% to 75%. All he had to do was manipulate a few emotions and pro-peace people are seen as the terrorists. Let me know when we're allowed to be against war again.
End Quote

This is America, you are free to be for or against anything you please.  Be thankful for that!  I don't know of anyone who has called the pro-peace people terrorists.  Didja ever think that maybe more people are for the war because they are finally learning the truth about Saddam?  That he's an evil, sadistic madman who will stop at nothing?  Would you still be pro-peace if he attacked us first?  Have you ever met anyone who has lost family due to his actions?  I have.

Quoting:


All he had to do was manipulate a few emotions and pro-peace people are seen as the terrorists. Let me know when we're allowed to be against war again.
End Quote

  80s_cheerleader,

  Oh, come on...Attack the U.S.?!  How do you figure?  

  I've seen many people convert to the war movement; it's inevitable when the movement appeals to emotion instead of rational consideration. It's kind of like a religion in that sense. After all the arguments are said and done, the war movement must rely on emotional appeals against the brutality of the regime in question. Well and fine, but all of the rhetoric we pitch about goes to waste under the weight of hypocrisy. Liberating Iraq? In trust for the Iraqi people? It all sounds really inviting, 80s_cheerleader. But there is no objective example of the United States creating peace through warfare. The closest we come is the War of 1812. Rational consideration proposes the necessity of a new hypothesis, but this requires thought, and it feels better just to hop on the bandwagon and affirm the emotional appeal. I have also seen war-dogs become peaceniks in response to some experience or event witnessed. Never, however, have I seen a war-dog become a peacenik according to rational consideration. I keep waiting; it will help me understand the warring mind better. But in the meantime, I do have to deal with reality.



 
 

 

Quoting:




  80s_cheerleader,

  Oh, come on...Attack the U.S.?!  How do you figure? End Quote

Are you saying it couldn't happen?  I hate to bring it up, but did any of us ever think something like 9-11 could've happened?  Is it so unreasonable to think of us being attacked on US soil?  It happened once, it could happen again.

Quoting:   I've seen many people convert to the war movement; it's inevitable when the movement appeals to emotion instead of rational consideration. It's kind of like a religion in that sense. After all the arguments are said and done, the war movement must rely on emotional appeals against the brutality of the regime in question. Well and fine, but all of the rhetoric we pitch about goes to waste under the weight of hypocrisy. Liberating Iraq? In trust for the Iraqi people? It all sounds really inviting, 80s_cheerleader. But there is no objective example of the United States creating peace through warfare. The closest we come is the War of 1812. Rational consideration proposes the necessity of a new hypothesis, but this requires thought, and it feels better just to hop on the bandwagon and affirm the emotional appeal. I have also seen war-dogs become peaceniks in response to some experience or event witnessed. Never, however, have I seen a war-dog become a peacenik according to rational consideration. I keep waiting; it will help me understand the warring mind better. But in the meantime, I do have to deal with reality.  
End Quote

And, the anti-war sentiment is based on what?  Sure, for some, it is something they have witnessed in the past.  But what about those who have never experienced war?  My father was a POW in Korea.  Most people overlook that little conflict, but I can tell you, he was not treated kindly.  He is still not against the war.  

I don't understand what you mean about "creating peace through warfare"?  Didn't we do that in WWII?  

I'm not trying to convert anyone.  I'm just speaking my mind.  And, not emotionally.  Emotionally, I wish we had never gotten involved, but rationally, I believe that something needed to be done.  Based on what we have found since we have gone to war (the buried chemical plant, the chem suits and ammo at a hospital, the mural depicting a 9-11-esque scene) there is no question in my mind that Saddam was preparing an attack.  Was it on the US?  Maybe, maybe not.  I'd rather not wait around and see.

Quoting:

"Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

-- Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag, Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief
End Quote

In todays geopolitical climate, you don't even have to "tell them they are being attacked", merely tell them there is a chance that they may be attacked.

Quoting:

Have you ever met anyone who has lost family due to his actions?  I have.
End Quote

To add to what Cheerleader is saying, I know a man who fought in the first Gulf war.  He fought for Iraq...he is now an exile because he defected.  He can't go back or he will be killed.  Of course his family is there.  He knows firsthand about Saddam and wants this war.  

Also, adding to another post of yours...they also found a bunker filled with our army uniforms.  Scary to think that they might have been planning to dress like our soldiers and kill that way.  

Quoting:
Also, adding to another post of yours...they also found a bunker filled with our army uniforms.  Scary to think that they might have been planning to dress like our soldiers and kill that way.  
End Quote

Madness.  >:(

Quoting:

Are you saying it couldn't happen?  I hate to bring it up, but did any of us ever think something like 9-11 could've happened?  Is it so unreasonable to think of us being attacked on US soil?  It happened once, it could happen again.

End Quote

  What does this have to do with Osama Bin Laden?  A graffiti
link?

Quoting:

I don't understand what you mean about "creating peace through warfare"?  Didn't we do that in WWII?

End Quote

  Cold War. 

Quoting:

I'm not trying to convert anyone.  I'm just speaking my mind.

End Quote

  As I am...but if something in these discussions gives just one person pause, I'll take what I can get.

Quoting:
  
Emotionally, I wish we had never gotten involved, but rationally, I believe that something needed to be done.  Based on what we have found since we have gone to war (the buried chemical plant, the chem suits and ammo at a hospital, the mural depicting a 9-11-esque scene) there is no question in my mind that Saddam was preparing an attack.  Was it on the US?  Maybe, maybe not.  I'd rather not wait around and see.
End Quote

  Do me a favor and don't box in the anti-war movement. Some people oppose the war in Iraq specifically because they think Al Qaeda and North Korea are more important rumbles.

  And no, the resolution didn't have to be perfect the first time around. Very little ever is in law and politics. But when something clearly isn't working, why drag it out for twelve years instead of try something else? The something else we chose is war, which is apparently what some people wanted from the word go.

  You know, some people oppose this war for the same reason the first Bush administration didn't go all the way to Badgag. But we can be happy. The "Bush Doctrine" clearly signaled that we don't care about that principle anymore.

  Oh, and the reason the UN can't stop Bush is the same reason Bush ignores and ridicules the anti-war movement: What are they going to do in return? Start a war?

  I like the fact that the only way for the anti-war movement to get respect for their views is to abandon them.

  There's not enough money or prosperity you could promise me that would make me sell out the human species. But I'm curious as to exactly what your price is. It seems rather low.

Quoting:

And now, you want Bush Jr. to end this war now, without finishing the job?   ::)


Do you realize what happened to the few that did rise up against Saddam after we pulled out of Iraq following the cease-fire?  They were slaughtered by the thousands!  And you want that to happen again???


End Quote

  So why ignore it? Next time, write better resolutions. And if you're going to call for uprising, it is advisable to consider these simple points:

- Support the uprisings when they come
- Do not, after thrashing the hell out of the enemy, hand them the ability to crush the uprisings you called for as a term of the ceasefire.

Other points of advice:

- Don't focus resolutions on punishing Saddam if the purpose is really about raising a tortured and brutalized people
- Don't support a dictator like Saddam with money and equipment if tortured and brutalized people are a consideration
- Don't pretend that one bad option is the only option short of war

  P.S.- I haven't been keeping-up on the discussions lately, but sorting-out a recent crisis...sorry if this is late...

Quoting:
  So why ignore it? Next time, write better resolutions. And if you're going to call for uprising, it is advisable to consider these simple points:

- Support the uprisings when they come
- Do not, after thrashing the hell out of the enemy, hand them the ability to crush the uprisings you called for as a term of the ceasefire.....End Quote

You are right and I agree.  Bush Sr made a huge mistake in the Gulf War by calling a cease-fire.  I will never deny that nor can anyone for that matter.  

My reason for originally directing this point to Carlos was because in one post he criticized Bush Sr for not finishing the job the first time(and I agree on that), but then a few days later he said Bush Jr should stop the war now, therefore not finishing the job.  Which would leave the Iraqis in the same situation they were in in 1991.  

Like I said, I was not happy at all with the outcome of the Gulf War, and I place most of the blame on Bush Sr.  

However, we are taking care of the problem now, and just delaying it with more pointless resolutions is the worst thing we could do.

Quoting:P.S.- I haven't been keeping-up on the discussions lately, but sorting-out a recent crisis...sorry if this is late... End Quote

whetever your crisis is, I hope things work out for the best.

Quoting:
You are right and I agree.  Bush Sr made a huge mistake in the Gulf War by calling a cease-fire.  I will never deny that nor can anyone for that matter.  

My reason for originally directing this point to Carlos was because in one post he criticized Bush Sr for not finishing the job the first time(and I agree on that), but then a few days later he said Bush Jr should stop the war now, therefore not finishing the job.  Which would leave the Iraqis in the same situation they were in in 1991.  

Like I said, I was not happy at all with the outcome of the Gulf War, and I place most of the blame on Bush Sr.  
End Quote

Hey, at last we agree on something!  ;) You're right. As much as I'm opposed to the conflict, it's no longer a matter of just turning around and walking away. It has to be brought to a conclusion, one way or another.

Quoting:
Hey, at last we agree on something!  ;) You're right. As much as I'm opposed to the conflict, it's no longer a matter of just turning around and walking away. It has to be brought to a conclusion, one way or another.
End Quote

Oh the heavens are opening up, we agreed on something! :D

just kidding. :)

But seriously, it was a probelm that needed to be dealt with eventually.  Mistakes were made in the past from several contributers worlwide that possibly lead us up to this point, but the time for finger-pointing and blaming is over.

The matter is finnally being taken care of, and will create a better life for the Iraqis as a result.

Quoting:
The matter is finnally being taken care of, and will create a better life for the Iraqis as a result.
End Quote

I would add the qualifier "hopefully" here. There's no such thing as a sure thing.  ;)

Quoting:


You are right and I agree.  Bush Sr made a huge mistake in the Gulf War by calling a cease-fire.  I will never deny that nor can anyone for that matter.  

My reason for originally directing this point to Carlos was because in one post he criticized Bush Sr for not finishing the job the first time(and I agree on that), but then a few days later he said Bush Jr should stop the war now, therefore not finishing the job.  Which would leave the Iraqis in the same situation they were in in 1991.  

Like I said, I was not happy at all with the outcome of the Gulf War, and I place most of the blame on Bush Sr.  

However, we are taking care of the problem now, and just delaying it with more pointless resolutions is the worst thing we could do.

End Quote

Enumerating the issues which compel us to the Iraqi Bush War

(1) Weapons of Mass Destruction - existence, production.
(1a) Weapons of Mass Destruction - Use, willingness to use.

(2) Repressive regime - existence, practice.
(2a) Repressive regime - human rights concerns

(3) Noncompliance/Violation of UN Resolutions - past, current.

(4) Potential Threat to World - potential for immediate and chaotic destruction
(4a) Potential Threat to USA - potential for immediate and chaotic destruction
(4b) Potential Threat to Immediate Neighbors - Kuwait, danger to Saudis, war w/Iran

(5) Spreading Liberty - (dubious inclusion of this point)

  In order to establish the peace, we must account for the factors which compel people to war. In the age of modern mass media, the reasons on the table are generally known, but who pretends that our mass media represents anything accurately anymore?

  So it might do us well to get the reasons out on the table, as some might disagree with others, such as #5 above. I consider it a dubious inclusion because in itself, spreading liberty has not been held up as a cause for war, merely a side effect of the new American foreign policy strategy.

  But if we're going to build a plan for peace, we need to establish what peace is; more specifically, we need to establish exactly where and why peace is absent.

  Any other reasons? Any we should take off the list..?

  I know; it's not particularly encouraging, is it? *shrugs* :-/
 
  Thank you very much, 80'sRocked, for responding directly to a vital question; sometimes it seems I'm the only one to see this point. Turns out I might not be crazy ....

Quoting:

whetever your crisis is, I hope things work out for the best.

End Quote

  Thanks :)

Quoting:


Enumerating the issues which compel us to the Iraqi Bush War

(1) Weapons of Mass Destruction - existence, production.
(1a) Weapons of Mass Destruction - Use, willingness to use.

(2) Repressive regime - existence, practice.
(2a) Repressive regime - human rights concerns

(3) Noncompliance/Violation of UN Resolutions - past, current.

(4) Potential Threat to World - potential for immediate and chaotic destruction
(4a) Potential Threat to USA - potential for immediate and chaotic destruction
(4b) Potential Threat to Immediate Neighbors - Kuwait, danger to Saudis, war w/Iran

(5) Spreading Liberty - (dubious inclusion of this point)

  In order to establish the peace, we must account for the factors which compel people to war. In the age of modern mass media, the reasons on the table are generally known, but who pretends that our mass media represents anything accurately anymore?

  So it might do us well to get the reasons out on the table, as some might disagree with others, such as #5 above. I consider it a dubious inclusion because in itself, spreading liberty has not been held up as a cause for war, merely a side effect of the new American foreign policy strategy.

  But if we're going to build a plan for peace, we need to establish what peace is; more specifically, we need to establish exactly where and why peace is absent.

  Any other reasons? Any we should take off the list..?

  I know; it's not particularly encouraging, is it? *shrugs* :-/
 
  Thank you very much, 80'sRocked, for responding directly to a vital question; sometimes it seems I'm the only one to see this point. Turns out I might not be crazy ....


  Thanks :)
End Quote

Hi Davester, I too hope that you issues work out ok,  I'v been through a bunch of personal s**t and come out ok.  Hope you have the same experience.  It s**ks while your in it, but you can come out stronger.  Hang in there dude.

As to point 5, as I read US history, this has NEVER been an issue.  IMO if it really were, we would have lots more respect around the world, and lots more support when we throw our weight around.  So many dictators were "our boys" that the list is to long to even concider.  If we want to be the c beacon of liberty and democracy, than we had better start living by our profestations.  I really  hate hypocracy, >:( especially from my "leaders" :'(

Quoting:


  What does this have to do with Osama Bin Laden?  A graffiti
link?End Quote

The point I was trying to make is that it is possible to attack the US on our own soil.  I believe that the gov't knew that OBL was a threat to the US, but never believed that they would do something in our own country.  I don't think it's a stretch to believe that Saddam would try the same.

Quoting:   Do me a favor and don't box in the anti-war movement. Some people oppose the war in Iraq specifically because they think Al Qaeda and North Korea are more important rumbles.
I know that everyone who opposes the war has their own reasons, just as everyone who supports it does.  I agree.  AQ and NK are issues.  Are you saying you'd support a war with them?

Quoting:   And no, the resolution didn't have to be perfect the first time around. Very little ever is in law and politics. But when something clearly isn't working, why drag it out for twelve years instead of try something else? The something else we chose is war, which is apparently what some people wanted from the word go.End Quote

I wish they had tried something else, rather than war, also.  But what?

Quoting:   I like the fact that the only way for the anti-war movement to get respect for their views is to abandon them.

  There's not enough money or prosperity you could promise me that would make me sell out the human species. But I'm curious as to exactly what your price is. It seems rather low.
End Quote

I don't understand what you mean by this.  By supporting the war, we are 'selling out the human species' for little or nothing?  That's offensive.  I respect the anti-war movement's views, I just wish they'd respect ours.  As I have stated before, I'm not 100% sure that this war was the best resolution.  However, I feel that (as others have pointed out) the job wasn't done right the first time.  Now, we are finishing it.  Hopefully, there will be minimal lives lost and the Iraqi people will finally be free from this madman.