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Bush just said Saddam has 48 hours to leave Iraq (with his sons) or we are gonna attack.

God Bless Our Souls
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Amen to that.

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Bush just said Saddam has 48 hours to leave Iraq (with his sons) or we are gonna attack.

God Bless Our Souls
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Yes, God bless us all.

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There's a feature story on Yahoo this morning:  Saddam refused.  Can't say this is a surprise.  :(  

God bless our soldiers.  They're the ones who pay the dearest, I think. :(  No matter your thoughts on the war, please remember these men and women are doing what their Commander in Cheif ordered them to...they don't choose wars, they fight them.  :(
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There's no draft.  They chose to be there - it's their job.  It's not sugar coated like the movie Private Benjamin.  You know going in that there is the possibility of war and that you may die.  You may even die in training or a field exercise.  
The US takes care of it's soldiers.  This isn't 1943 anymore.

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There's no draft.  They chose to be there - it's their job.  It's not sugar coated like the movie Private Benjamin.  You know going in that there is the possibility of war and that you may die.  You may even die in training or a field exercise.  
The US takes care of it's soldiers.  This isn't 1943 anymore.
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???
I didn't say the soldiers didn't know the dangers of signing on.  Are you saying we shouldn't support their efforts or feel for the families they may never come home to?  There was nothing wrong in what I said.  Soldiers don't choose wars, they fight them.  Unless someone started giving them a vote on whether they wanted to fight or not, and kept that fact from the public....

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???
I didn't say the soldiers didn't know the dangers of signing on.  Are you saying we shouldn't support their efforts or feel for the families they may never come home to?  There was nothing wrong in what I said.  Soldiers don't choose wars, they fight them.  Unless someone started giving them a vote on whether they wanted to fight or not, and kept that fact from the public....
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Oh goodness.  You don't know me very well! :)
I WHOLE HEARTEDLY support them.  Nor did I say there was anything wrong with what you said.  
I was merely pointing out that they know when they sign up what the possibilities are.  They aren't naive enough to think that they will never be called to duty.  They and their families hope they never have to fight but they know it's possible.
They know the President has a job to do too.  And they know that they are in the jobs to carry out the orders.  
Growing up in a military family with military aunts, uncles, boyfriends, friends and neighbors, there weren't ever too many who never supported the past and current Presidents when talks of military action came up.  (I could probably count them on one hand).
I support GWB's decision to invade, if it was up to me we would have done it long ago.

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God bless our soldiers.  They're the ones who pay the dearest, I think. :(  No matter your thoughts on the war, please remember these men and women are doing what their Commander in Cheif ordered them to...they don't choose wars, they fight them.  :(
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Whilst I don't wish harm on anyone, I don't think US troops are going to pay the dearest.
It's the innocent men, women and children of Iraq who are going to suffer the most.
The other casualty is the UN which neither the US or the UK governments can even pretend to respect.

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It's the innocent men, women and children of Iraq who are going to suffer the most.
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sort of like when Saddam dips their hands in acid?  Or randomly shoots them in their homes?

Like I said in the other thread, you claim to not want this war becasue of the potential innocent Iraqi casualties, but you refuse to acknowledge that Saddam has been killing them for years.  If anything, this war will stop the random killing of innocent Iraqis you claim to be so concerned about.  For the first time since Saddam came into power, the innocent Iraqis won't have to worry about Saddam breaking down their door and hauling them off to their death.

How can you just want to sit back while knowing that the Iraqis are getting killed at the hands of Saddam, and then say you are concerned for them?

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sort of like when Saddam dips their hands in acid?  Or randomly shoots them in their homes?

Like I said in the other thread, you claim to not want this war becasue of the potential innocent Iraqi casualties, but you refuse to acknowledge that Saddam has been killing them for years.  If anything, this war will stop the random killing of innocent Iraqis you claim to be so concerned about.  For the first time since Saddam came into power, the innocent Iraqis won't have to worry about Saddam breaking down their door and hauling them off to their death.
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Can I ask a stupid question?  I realize that Saddam treats the Iraqis terrible, but WHY?  What is his motive for doing those horrible things to them?  What is he trying to prove?  

Please help this lost penguin undertand........ ::)

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Oh goodness.  You don't know me very well! :)
I WHOLE HEARTEDLY support them.  Nor did I say there was anything wrong with what you said.  
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I'm so sorry!  I misunderstood your post.  Happily found out I was wrong, too, I should point out. :)  I thought you were saying that since they signed up, we shouldn't worry about them.  I'm sorry.  

Taoist, it is a shame that innocent Iraqi people will more than likely be killed in this attack.  I have yet to hear of a conflict resulting in military action where innocent people didn't die.  No matter who the innocents are or where they're from, it's a tragedy.  :(

I kind of think the U.S. is in a lose-lose position.  Right now, it's, "The U.S. should let it lie for 12 more years.  He's only hurting other Iraqis right now."  If we wait for Saddam to attack (maybe your country ? ) or fund terrorists who do (maybe my country again ? ), then all the moaning will be, "Why didn't the U.S. do something about Saddam before it was too late?!"  

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the above statement, tell me why you think that it's (if, indeed it is) flawed in it's concept.

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Can I ask a stupid question?  I realize that Saddam treats the Iraqis terrible, but WHY?  What is his motive for doing those horrible things to them?  What is he trying to prove?  
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well, first and foremost, He is a tyrannical maniac(to put it bluntly).  His philosophy is Rule By Fear.  He knows that his people know that if they don't support him, they will probably end up in a ditch somewhere.  Hence the last "election" where he got a unanimous vote.  Not surprising since the Iraqi voter cards have their individual ID number on it so each vote can be traced back to the person.

Another report I have read stated that he is also a very very paranoid man.  It is on record that he has randomly barged into homes and tortured the family's children until the parents tell him "what they know" because he thinks his people are plotting against him.

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I kind of think the U.S. is in a lose-lose position.  Right now, it's, "The U.S. should let it lie for 12 more years.  He's only hurting other Iraqis right now."  If we wait for Saddam to attack (maybe your country ? ) or fund terrorists who do (maybe my country again ? ), then all the moaning will be, "Why didn't the U.S. do something about Saddam before it was too late?!"  

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the above statement, tell me why you think that it's (if, indeed it is) flawed in it's concept.
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But Iraq has never planned to attack the US (Ok. Except for that one plan to assassinate Bush Sr. back in '93). Iraq has never been linked to terrorist actions against the United States (and, if so, it isn't being talked about anywhere). We are only going in on a hunch that Saddam might attack the US with his weapons of mass destruction. Again, this was never a concern of Americans until 09-11 and after. Before that, I did not hear Americans clamoring for an invasion, for regime change, et cetera. It only dawned into the American mind once 09-11 happened. The Iraqi citizens are far from the the war-pusher's mind: always have and always will be, so this sudden caring for world democracy and of the Iraqi citizens is too little, too late.

Prayer won't be enough. The same prayers that go towards the good and towards peace are the same prayers the bomber pilot gives himself before a night-raid...

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Again, this was never a concern of Americans until 09-11 and after. Before that, I did not hear Americans clamoring for an invasion, for regime change, et cetera. It only dawned into the American mind once 09-11 happened.End Quote

I understand your point here, I must say.  I think he should have been completely dealt with 12 years ago, but he wasn't.  I was also confused by the suddenness of Bush's vehemence against Iraq.  No one had even mentioned Hussein in years.  

I am not saying that the anti-war people don't have some valid points, because I think they do.  I think if you ask any U.S. citizen, they would want UN backing.  But this choice was made, and most of us will support our troops no matter what.

You said that Iraq never planned to attack the U.S.  How do you know this?  Is Saddam sharing tactical info with you? ;)  I'm not saying he is or was planning an attack, but I also don't know that he wasn't.  It would seem that those in power (world over) know more of this situation than they're telling anyone.

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sort of like when Saddam dips their hands in acid?  Or randomly shoots them in their homes?

Like I said in the other thread, you claim to not want this war becasue of the potential innocent Iraqi casualties, but you refuse to acknowledge that Saddam has been killing them for years.  If anything, this war will stop the random killing of innocent Iraqis you claim to be so concerned about.  For the first time since Saddam came into power, the innocent Iraqis won't have to worry about Saddam breaking down their door and hauling them off to their death.

How can you just want to sit back while knowing that the Iraqis are getting killed at the hands of Saddam, and then say you are concerned for them?
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I am curious about this as well, Taoist.

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You said that Iraq never planned to attack the U.S.  How do you know this?  Is Saddam sharing tactical info with you? ;)  
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You got me there, Chief 8) Big fallacy in argument to assume one thing completely without knowledge of the facts on both sides.

To be honest, I hadn't really thought of Iraq becoming this ultimate potential threat to American security. I'm more afraid of Pakistan, N. Korea, and China, as well as independent terrorist organizations that get their support from various Middle Eastern and North African countries (not just Iraq) and have their arsenal supplied by other rogue nations (heck! Even the CIS can become a great potential threat to our security)... but I'm just going on a hunch here ;)

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I am curious about this as well, Taoist.
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Me too.

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I was also confused by the suddenness of Bush's vehemence against Iraq.  No one had even mentioned Hussein in years.  
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Yesterday on ABC they addressed how a lot of people think all this started after 9/11.  However, they showed a clip of  Bush's Innaugural Address, and he did mention that one of the objectives of this administration was to deal with countries illegally developing and selling/buying weapons of mass distruction, which I forgot all about too.  He didn't specifiaclly say Iraq, but the issue was addressed from day 1.

Quoting:I think if you ask any U.S. citizen, they would want UN backing.  End Quote

While it would have been nice to have full backing of the UN, it was obvious that France, Russia, and China were just not going to support us no matter what.  

We have a coallition of 30 countries right now.

Quoting:It would seem that those in power (world over) know more of this situation than they're telling anyone.
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And are you surprised about that?  A certain level of secrecy is vital, especially when it comes to national security and military action.

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While it would have been nice to have full backing of the UN, it was obvious that France, Russia, and China were just not going to support us no matter what. End Quote

Yes, that was plain from jump.  Of course, I'm glad we have the support we do have.  I was just pointing out that we will support our troops now that the road has been chosen.

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And are you surprised about that?  A certain level of secrecy is vital, especially when it comes to national security and military action.End Quote

Not at all surprised.  That was my point. ;)  The governments know to an extent what Saddam is up to, and we don't have that info, therefore we can't say we know one way or the other what his plans are. ;)  

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<snip>

I support GWB's decision to invade, if it was up to me we would have done it long ago.
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Back in the early 90's we did.  It was called the Gulf War/Operation Desert Storm.  Problem is, we didn't finish the job.

Back then, I worked with a fella who was a Marine Reservist.  He was called to active duty, fought willingly, and thankfully came home in one piece.

But he came back angry.  He told us that "the job wasn't done right", "the job isn't finished", and most chillingly, "Mark my words, ten years from now we'll be over there doing it all over again."  

At the time I thought he was just blowing off steam because he missed out on a promotion by having the war end.  But now...

I wish I knew how to get in touch with him to apologize for laughing at him. :(

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sort of like when Saddam dips their hands in acid?  Or randomly shoots them in their homes?


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Can I add one thing to this?  How about the homes of all the innocent citizens that he built bunkers under?  Isn't that sick?  The man needs to be taken out, period.

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Can I add one thing to this?  How about the homes of all the innocent citizens that he built bunkers under?  Isn't that sick?  The man needs to be taken out, period.
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sick doesn't even begin to describe him.

In addition, I heard a report on the radio today of an Iraqi describing how he witnessed Saddam ordering over 30 people to be dropped into some sort of plastic-shredding machine, sort of like a wood chipper, to be shredded alive, for nothing more than speaking out against Saddam.

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sick doesn't even begin to describe him.

In addition, I heard a report on the radio today of an Iraqi describing how he witnessed Saddam ordering over 30 people to be dropped into some sort of plastic-shredding machine, sort of like a wood chipper, to be shredded alive, for nothing more than speaking out against Saddam.
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But, just remember he is not a threat. ::)

Seriously, anyone who can do this to his own people is a threat to the rest of the world.