Quoting:
Thoughts?
End Quote

"F*ck."

Quoting:
Is this a surprise to the yourself, the world, and to Saddam?  Been very clear for a number of months that the Bush Admin was going to push this through.  Right, wrong, or both this was going to happen unless Saddam removed himself and his regime out of Iraq.
End Quote

Exactly correct Race.

Saddam has known this whole time exactly what needs to be done to avoid war, and he has shown he just doesn't care.  

Now its the final chapter, and Saddam can determine the ending tonight.

Quoting:
Let me start this out by saying I support the President in this.  Of course, I am scared.  War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is necessary.  I just pray that this is over quickly and with little casualty.End Quote

Amen to that!

Quoting:I would just like to ask one thing of people.  Please, no matter how you feel about the war, support our troops.  
End Quote

Thats exactly right.  I sincerely hope we do not have another situation like during Vietnam where the brave soldiers, just doing their job, were spat on and called names by some paeople who to this day call themselves "Patriotic Americans".  Purely dispicable.  

Quoting:
Thats exactly right.  I sincerely hope we do not have another situation like during Vietnam where the brave soldiers, just doing their job, were spat on and called names by some paeople who to this day call themselves "Patriotic Americans".  Purely dispicable.  


End Quote

This is my fear.  I know that people don't agree with Bush, and that is their right.  I just don't wan't anyone to take it out on our troops.  They are the ones who keep us safe.

Looks like it will be Wednesday night.  Unless Saddam decides to step down before then...we can only pray (or hope) that that is what he does.

Quoting:
Mark today as the beginning of the end of the world, or at least the end of the United States. End Quote

::)

Quoting:My tears go to the Iraqi people who will be killed by our bombs. :'(
End Quote

Thats fine, and I too hope there are minimal casualties.  But how about, for once, looking at it from the other side and being glad the Iraqi's won't have to live under the ruling fist  of Saddam Hussein any longer.  

One thing that has always stricken me as funny is how the same people who protest war because of the potential casualties of Iraqi's by our bombs, have no regard to the fact Saddam has been killing off his own people for years.  If anything, this will be the end the random deaths of the innocent Iraqi's you claim to be so concerned about.

Quoting:
::)

Thats fine, and I too hope there are minimal casualties.  But how about, for once, looking at it from the other side and being glad the Iraqi's won't have to live under the ruling fist  of Saddam Hussein any longer.  

One thing that has always stricken me as funny is how the same people who protest war because of the potential casualties of Iraqi's by our bombs, have no regard to the fact Saddam has been killing off his own people for years.  If anything, this will be the end the random deaths of the innocent Iraqi's you claim to be so concerned about.


End Quote

VERY well said!  Take that, Hollyweird >:(

Quoting:
As much as I've been against the idea of this war, the decision has been made. There's nothing we can do now except pull together in patriotic solidarity and support our nation, our troops and each other.
End Quote

Well said HS!  And I wholeheartedly agree.

Quoting:
As much as I've been against the idea of this war, the decision has been made. There's nothing we can do now except pull together in patriotic solidarity and support our nation, our troops and each other.
End Quote

Did everyone that?  This needs to be our motto.  

Quoting:


Did everyone that?  This needs to be our motto.  
End Quote

I second that. And I pray.

Quoting:
Mark today as the beginning of the end of the world, or at least the end of the United States.
End Quote

Everyday is the beginning of the end of the world.

Quoting:
I have a question....what happened to RnRFan's posts?  I swear they were here a minute ago? :-/
End Quote

Thanks for noticing!  All I did was say that I didn't "Whine" for eight LONG clinton years...while the liberals whine about Bush..... ::)

Quoting:

Thanks for noticing!  All I did was say that I didn't "Whine" for eight LONG clinton years...while the liberals whine about Bush..... ::)End Quote

RnRF, this is not a Clinton thread. You have a tendency to get into this repetitive Clinton tangent and this subject is about "Bush To Declare Final Ultimatum Tonight...". You had said something about people "under" Clinton (vague reference to his issues while he was president). Clinton is not the president anymore and certainly not the issue here.

We are pretty flexible when it come to staying on topic, but that was a case of wildly off topic.

Quoting:


RnRF, this is not a Clinton thread. You have a tendency to get into this repetitive Clinton tangent and this subject is about "Bush To Declare Final Ultimatum Tonight...". You had said something about people "under" Clinton (vague reference to his issues while he was president). Clinton is not the president anymore and certainly not the issue here.

We are pretty flexible when it come to staying on topic, but that was a case of wildly off topic.
End Quote

wild or not...I'm talking about Bush being attacked by the left winb whiners...the SAME people that supported a moron like slick willy....I Support our president...when bill was there I did NOT whine....now it's Bush and all we hear from the liberals is a bunch of anti-war...anti US crap...let Rosie and Alec MOVE out of the US...then they'll be keeping thier word.... :-/

Quoting:

wild or not...I'm talking about Bush being attacked by the left winb whiners...the SAME people that supported a moron like slick willy....I Support our president...when bill was there I did NOT whine....now it's Bush and all we hear from the liberals is a bunch of anti-war...anti US crap...let Rosie and Alec MOVE out of the US...then they'll be keeping thier word.... :-/
End Quote

Then I suggest you start a thread on that issue.

Quoting:


Then I suggest you start a thread on that issue.
End Quote

Naw..I apologize...I'll juswt bow out of this thread by saying that I fully support our president and hope that sodamninsane gives up before we declare war.....and GOD help us if another clinton EVER becomes prez....lastly but not least...Move away Rosie & Alec...and take the rest of Hollyweird with you....

Quoting:
As the congressman from Illinoins just said:  "I think we will see cheering in the streets of Baghdad when we get there"

End Quote

Unless Saddam gasses them all on purpose first, and makes it look like the US did it.

Quoting:
On behalf of my country to yours Fuss...and all the other Aussies here.......THANK YOU! :-*
End Quote

In my opinion, a Real Leader is one that acts based on what he feels is the right thing to do, despite voter opposition.

This is great news.

Quoting:
Unless Saddam gasses them all on purpose first, and makes it look like the US did it.
End Quote

well we can only hope we get there in time to avoid such an event.

I have confidence we will. ;)

Quoting:
On behalf of my country to yours Fuss...and all the other Aussies here.......THANK YOU! :-*
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030318/ap_on_re_mi_ea/australia_iraq_22
End Quote

Actually, you wouldn't be thanking us if you knew what the PUBLIC opinion on this subject was.  ;)

Quoting:
Actually, you wouldn't be thanking us if you knew what the PUBLIC opinion on this subject was.  ;)
End Quote

He's being a Leader.

I commend him for that.  

If the world was ran by leaders who always did what protestors told them too, God help us. ::)


It will be interresting to see how many more countries join the coallition in the next few days.  Especially now that they know we are serious about this and its not just another bluff.

Quoting:
Look Gore....it wasn't your people attacked before...if you disagree...it is your right and I won't argue....I was just saying a thanks....Too many people have already died..and I hope like H3ll saddam leaves and we all get peace.  War is not pretty.  But what else can we do?  Live in terror our entire lives?  Come over here....bring your kids...and explain why you are sheltered on what you can do in your daily life.  It is not pretty...and I have to say I am scared...very scared...for me, for you..and for everyone
End Quote

Actually we lost 90 people in a terrorist bomb blast in Indonesia in October last year. Nevertheless, the majority of Australian people don't believe we should join a war against Iraq, yet our PM has committed us to it regardless. So, we're there, like it or not.
My thoughts go out to the troops on the frontline and their families. Some of them may never see each other alive again.

Quoting:


Actually we lost 90 people in a terrorist bomb blast in Indonesia in October last year. Nevertheless, the majority of Australian people don't believe we should join a war against Iraq, yet our PM has committed us to it regardless. So, we're there, like it or not.
My thoughts go out to the troops on the frontline and their families. Some of them may never see each other alive again.
End Quote

I did not know if that affected you (as a person and a supporter) so I did not bring it up.  Please say your thoughts....seriously, on what you think we can do.  And I agree....I hope it ends before Wed....and bless the ones over there now....waiting and hoping

Quoting:
Nevertheless, the majority of Australian people don't believe we should join a war against Iraq, yet our PM has committed us to it regardless. So, we're there, like it or not.
My thoughts go out to the troops on the frontline and their families. Some of them may never see each other alive again.
End Quote

According to polls, the majority of Americans are against it as well.

Quoting:


According to polls, the majority of Americans are against it as well.
End Quote

http://www.gallup.com/poll/topics/media/iraq_2.gif

Quoting:


http://www.gallup.com/poll/topics/media/iraq_2.gif
End Quote

From MSNBC:
"A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released Monday found that 50 percent of Americans would oppose a war if the United States attacked Iraq without a new U.N. vote, while 47 percent would approve of war. The poll of 1,129 likely voters Friday and Saturday reported a margin of sampling error of 3 percentage points."

Like Rice says, it depends on the poll you look at.

Quoting:
From MSNBC:
"A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released Monday found that 50 percent of Americans would oppose a war if the United States attacked Iraq without a new U.N. vote, while 47 percent would approve of war. The poll of 1,129 likely voters Friday and Saturday reported a margin of sampling error of 3 percentage points."
End Quote

That is why small-scale polls like that are not an accurate way to determine the opinion of the majority of Americans.

Think about it:

If only 1129 people took part in this poll, and 50% oppose, According to that: 564 people opposed.


You are using the opinions of 564 people and calling it the opinions of the majority of Americans ?

Quoting:
On behalf of my country to yours Fuss...and all the other Aussies here.......THANK YOU! :-*
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030318/ap_on_re_mi_ea/australia_iraq_22
End Quote

(NB - this may be the only time you will ever see me making any form of political comment)  :o

Well, you are welcome.  Gore's comments are representative of the majority of Australians however.  And he did have a point about Bali which I note you have acknowledged, SS.  It was our citizens attacked and those of Britain and it is generally accepted these days (as was brought in the Bali thread of the time and I recall being questioned by some) that the attack was as a result of the Australian Government's strong and continued support of the US position.

So we do know what it means to live under the threat of terrorism.

My (very limited) understanding is that Australia based their support originally on the concept of the agreement of the ANZUS treaty (I would be interested to know how many americans know of the existence of it) which basically requires the US, Australia and New Zealand to come to each other's aid if one of the other parties is attacked, or there is war/insurgence in the pacific region which threatens one of those countries.

Leaving all issues of whether you do or don't support war, I think part of the angst over here is that this doen't meet those conditions, coupled with the lasting impression that the ANZUS treaty to date has only ever served one nation....

I am just trying to spell out how I see it here.

I support the comments of Hair.  If anyone doesn't like what is happening, don't tear each other to shreds.  Protest your Government, or whoever's Government, but for heaven's sake don't abuse any of the troops who are doing a job for which they are employed.  They have enough worries already.

FB

Quoting:
The only poll that matters is the election poll.
End Quote

Well, luckily for us(and you now), the leaders of the coallition don't seem to be too concerned about elections right now.  Nor should they be. 

There's a couple more important things going on at the moment to even be thinking about elections.

Quoting:


... Australia based their support originally on the concept of the agreement of the ANZUS treaty (I would be interested to know how many americans know of the existence of it) which basically requires the US, Australia and New Zealand to come to each other's aid if one of the other parties is attacked, or there is war/insurgence in the pacific region which threatens one of those countries.

Leaving all issues of whether you do or don't support war, I think part of the angst over here is that this doesn't meet those conditions, coupled with the lasting impression that the ANZUS treaty to date has only ever served one nation....

End Quote

Wow. It makes me wonder who else did not know this. It's not taught at schools here. The countries of the Americas have a similar treaty and Argentina still has a beef with that when it came to the Falkland/Malvinas fiasco back in the 80s... the US supported Britain on that one.

Quoting:


Wow. It makes me wonder who else did not know this. It's not taught at schools here. The countries of the Americas have a similar treaty and Argentina still has a beef with that when it came to the Falkland/Malvinas fiasco back in the 80s... the US supported Britain on that one.
End Quote

Hey Carlos !

As I was at pains to try and point out, I don't know quite how accurate my statement is.  But that is my understanding of the ANZUS treaty intention.

Quoting:
My (very limited) understanding is that Australia based their support originally on the concept of the agreement of the ANZUS treaty (I would be interested to know how many americans know of the existence of it) which basically requires the US, Australia and New Zealand to come to each other's aid if one of the other parties is attacked, or there is war/insurgence in the pacific region which threatens one of those countries.

End Quote

This may be so, but Howard's reliance on the terms of ANZUS is a flawed argument. The ANZUS treaty has been compromised ever since New Zealand banned nuclear-powered US warships from its ports in the late 1980s; it's basically a dead duck.  

Quoting:
As much as I've been against the idea of this war, the decision has been made. There's nothing we can do now except pull together in patriotic solidarity and support our nation, our troops and each other.
End Quote

  No!

  We must stand for peace in the skies; we must stand for peace across the land. We must defend the waters against the sharks of war. We must never surrender.

Quoting:There's nothing we can do now...End Quote

  If there's nothing we can do about it, then living in "America" means absolutely nothing. And I, for one, am not about to surrender my nation to that kind of pointlessness.

  If I think of anything useful to do in the near future, I'll let you all know.

 In the meantime, what shreds of democracy existed in the U.S. are being thrown on the fire.

  I won't be shocked the next time our enemies hit us, and I will be even more disposed to simply shake my head and sadly reflect that this is the way it is. I just wish we had a more respectable enemy at this point. I don't understand the American habit of behaving worse than our enemies, but that seems to be what the people want.

  Our elected president is not in the office. The will of the people is not being respected. This is well and fine with everyone as long as they have enough money to buy coffee and cocaine with to get them through the working day.

Quoting:
We'll just have to wait and see, Davester. It won't be long. Think of it as a beating from a group of thugs in where you're huddled up and tensed... You'll just have to wait. After it's over, you can open one eye, look around, and see what the damage is... No need to jump the gun, although I feel very comfortable with the thought of being labeled as un-American. Hmwell. If being American is believing that war solves complicated problems, then being American is over-rated. The invasion is going to happen whether we want it or not, so supporting or not supporting this move means nothing anyway.
End Quote

  Tarzan Boy...
  My heart is lightened by the deeds of a true scholar, the ambition of the mind in search for truth is one of the pure energys of the heart (so to speak), keep grooving.  ;)

 

Quoting:


According to polls, the majority of Americans are against it as well.
End Quote

Here in Colorado Springs 90% are for supporting the prez....I hope sadaam steps down and war will not happen though....

Quoting:
Something major is going to happen-I feel it and it is not going to be pretty and I am not talking about bombs expoding over Bagdad. I am talking about something right here in the U.S.
Cat
End Quote

:o :-/ :'(

Quoting:


I dunno, I'm just reaching here, but I've not heard who will replace Saddam, that's all.
End Quote

This is just in the short term, of course. In the long term I have no idea, but I am pretty sure it will be someone with a pro-US/UK bent.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/09/1047144870977.html

Quoting:
As much as I've been against the idea of this war, the decision has been made. There's nothing we can do now except pull together in patriotic solidarity and support our nation, our troops and each other.
End Quote

Davester,

I understand your frustration. However, this war is our reality right now. We don't have to like it. Most don't. All the same, I stand by my thoughts expressed in my earlier post.

Remember....

             United we stand....

Quoting:
More speculation of the aftermath:

With all this talk of regime change by our fearless leaders, I'm just wondering what they exactly mean by that. End Quote

The $64,000 question.  The New York Time's Tom Friedman wrote about this a month ago or so.  The good scenario is a country that's ripe for democratic change and will serve as a model for the region; bad scenario is the society is so fractious it needs a Saddam-type strongman just to keep it together.  

Quoting:
I don't like war either but something should've been done YEARS ago....Clinton lovers HEAR THAT!
End Quote

Clinton lovers?  It was George I who's gonads failed him.  You Republican want to blame Bubba for EVERYTHING ???

Quoting:
As much as I've been against the idea of this war, the decision has been made. There's nothing we can do now except pull together in patriotic solidarity and support our nation, our troops and each other.
End Quote

Yes, that is exactly what millions of Germans said in 1939, when Hitler invaded Poland.  What we anti-war people can do is protest, "peacefully assemble and petition our government for a redress of grievances", stage a general strike, write letters, hold vigils, etc.  This is not the time to roll over and play dead, it IS the time to become more active, louder, and to reach out to the world community for support.

Quoting:


Yes, that is exactly what millions of Germans said in 1939, when Hitler invaded Poland.  
End Quote

Much as I respect your right to opinion Don Carlos,  I don't see any way that you can compare the USA to Nazi Germany and I resent this remark.

Quoting:
As the congressman from Illinoins just said:  "I think we will see cheering in the streets of Baghdad when we get there"
End Quote

I beg to differ.  What we will see INITIALLY is cheering.  Then the Shiia and their Al Quida and Iranian suppoters will begin the gurrilla war against our troops, and the real body count will begin.  The Kurds will also rise up as soon as it is clear to them that we will not allow the formation of Kurdistan.  The fundamentalists in the other countries over there will mobilize against the infidel crusaders.  The whole area will explode.  Gas and fuel oil prises here will go through the roof -$10.00/gallon gas?  Western Civilization, born in the fertile cresent between the Tigras and Euphaties rivers, will begin to die there.  And, with the Total Information Awareness program in effect, many of us will wind up in concentration camps, and discussion groups like this will be a thing of the past.  :-X  for real!!!  IT CAN HAPPEN HERE!!!! :'(

Quoting:


Yes, that is exactly what millions of Germans said in 1939, when Hitler invaded Poland.  What we anti-war people can do is protest, "peacefully assemble and petition our government for a redress of grievances", stage a general strike, write letters, hold vigils, etc.  This is not the time to roll over and play dead, it IS the time to become more active, louder, and to reach out to the world community for support.End Quote

I just don't agree with, what I see to be, an extremist attitude. I believe it would do us and our country a better service to unite and stand strong. This is no time to be divided. We can resume our ideology when the danger has passed.

This is just my opinion.

Quoting:


I beg to differ.  What we will see INITIALLY is cheering.  Then the Shiia and their Al Quida and Iranian suppoters will begin the gurrilla war against our troops, and the real body count will begin.  The Kurds will also rise up as soon as it is clear to them that we will not allow the formation of Kurdistan.  The fundamentalists in the other countries over there will mobilize against the infidel crusaders.  The whole area will explode.  Gas and fuel oil prises here will go through the roof -$10.00/gallon gas?  Western Civilization, born in the fertile cresent between the Tigras and Euphaties rivers, will begin to die there.  And, with the Total Information Awareness program in effect, many of us will wind up in concentration camps, and discussion groups like this will be a thing of the past.  :-X  for real!!!  IT CAN HAPPEN HERE!!!! :'(
End Quote

I'm not going to pretend to be as well read as you, but I have an observation regarding this post.

Isn't one of the arguments being used in the anti war movement that the US and UK cannot invade on the assumption that Iraq might be a threat in the future?

Well isn't everything you said above just speculation as well?

Quoting:


That is why small-scale polls like that are not an accurate way to determine the opinion of the majority of Americans.

Think about it:

If only 1129 people took part in this poll, and 50% oppose, According to that: 564 people opposed.


You are using the opinions of 564 people and calling it the opinions of the majority of Americans ?


End Quote

I suggest that 80sRocked take a course in statistical analysis and sampling.  But yes, it sure does depend on the poll, how the sample was drawn, and how the questions were phrased.  The rule to keep in mind is that figures lie and liars figure.

Quoting:

Yes, that is exactly what millions of Germans said in 1939...End Quote

No it was not.

That is my own quote.  :P

I, too, resent the comparison of which Shaz spoke in her post.

Quoting:

I suggest that 80sRocked take a course in statistical analysis and sampling.End Quote

I will stand-up for 80sRocked and say you do not have the right and it is not your place to suggest anything to anyone.

Opinions welcome. Personal suggestions to members are not.

Quoting:


I beg to differ.  What we will see INITIALLY is cheering.  Then the Shiia and their Al Quida and Iranian suppoters will begin the gurrilla war against our troops, and the real body count will begin.  The Kurds will also rise up as soon as it is clear to them that we will not allow the formation of Kurdistan.  The fundamentalists in the other countries over there will mobilize against the infidel crusaders.  The whole area will explode.  Gas and fuel oil prises here will go through the roof -$10.00/gallon gas?  Western Civilization, born in the fertile cresent between the Tigras and Euphaties rivers, will begin to die there.  And, with the Total Information Awareness program in effect, many of us will wind up in concentration camps, and discussion groups like this will be a thing of the past.  :-X  for real!!!  IT CAN HAPPEN HERE!!!! :'(
End Quote

With all due respect -

What the h e l l planet do you live on?

I think you must have been out running errands the day the rest of the Heaven's Gate clan "took off" without you.

I really don't mean any disrespect to you or your opinion - but man, you're totally out there!  

I honestly don't see the how you can honestly compare the US to Nazi Germany.  That is a travesty that you actually think that way.

To hear you talk about the anti war protesters writing letters, holding vigils and whatever in the world else they do, is quite humorous.  Will you also be condeming the soldiers when they return just like the "hippies" did at the conclusion of the VietNam war?  

Come on.  I sit here at my desk reading this in absolute disbelief.    

Quoting:
More speculation of the aftermath:

With all this talk of regime change by our fearless leaders, I'm just wondering what they exactly mean by that. With an invasion pending, they should know who should replace our former friend Saddam... but who is this mystery leader/regime that will replace Saddam? Nobody seems to talk about this (I've tuned out from the news quite a bit). Will it just be a Saddam by another name who in turn will be on friendly terms with the US and the UK? I wonder if new deals would be brokered and the spoils would go to the US and the UK first...

I dunno, I'm just reaching here, but I've not heard who will replace Saddam, that's all.
End Quote

Actually, I have heard, but can't supply sources, that Mr Chaney' old firm, Halliburton, and Exxon have already been given contracts by the U.S. Gov't to rehabilitate Iraqi oil fields, and NPR News reports that the exiled Iraqi org's will play a role.  Surprise, surprise

Quoting:

I really don't mean any disrespect to you or your opinion - but man, you're totally out there!  

I honestly don't see the how you can honestly compare the US to Nazi Germany.  That is a travesty that you actually think that way.

To hear you talk about the anti war protesters writing letters, holding vigils and whatever in the world else they do, is quite humorous.  Will you also be condeming the soldiers when they return just like the "hippies" did at the conclusion of the VietNam war?  
End Quote

CS, you took the words right out of my mouth, er fingertips.

And regarding the antiwar segment of the post, man I hope the soldiers aren't put through another Vietnam homecoming.  

Quoting:


Much as I respect your right to opinion Don Carlos,  I don't see any way that you can compare the USA to Nazi Germany and I resent this remark.
End Quote

Resent it all you like, but the fact remains that if we let the war mongers wrap themselves in the flag, and all follow along blindly, than we are no better than the millions of non-Nazi germans who allowed both WWII and the holicost to happen.  "I know nothing" just CAN"T DO.  If you oppose the war, than, I think  you are obliged to say so LOUDLY!!!!

Quoting:
I'll re-phrase my original quote:

As much as I've been against the idea of this war, the decision has been made. We should pull together now in patriotic solidarity and support our nation, our troops and each other.
End Quote

Fight the good fight, honey!

I'll give you this Hairspray - you don't give up!
:D

Quoting:


Resent it all you like, but the fact remains that if we let the war mongers wrap themselves in the flag, and all follow along blindly, than we are no better than the millions of non-Nazi germans who allowed both WWII and the holicost to happen.  "I know nothing" just CAN"T DO.  If you oppose the war, than, I think  you are obliged to say so LOUDLY!!!!
End Quote

Man, I can't even take you a little bit seriously anymore.

Quoting:


Resent it all you like, but the fact remains that if we let the war mongers wrap themselves in the flag, and all follow along blindly, than we are no better than the millions of non-Nazi germans who allowed both WWII and the holicost to happen.  "I know nothing" just CAN"T DO.  If you oppose the war, than, I think  you are obliged to say so LOUDLY!!!!
End Quote

It is my opinion that your posts read as extreme.

Will you spit on our troops when they return too?

Quoting:
Resent it all you like, but the fact remains that if we let the war mongers wrap themselves in the flag, and all follow along blindly, than we are no better than the millions of non-Nazi germans who allowed both WWII and the holicost to happen.  "I know nothing" just CAN"T DO.  If you oppose the war, than, I think  you are obliged to say so LOUDLY!!!!
End Quote

oh boy. ::)

Don Carlos, you can continue marching in the street, stopping traffic, walking off the job, burning the American flag, etc etc.

While you do that, The rest of us will be taking care of business.  

Quoting:


This is no time to be divided. We can resume our ideology when the danger has passed.

This is just my opinion.

End Quote

You mean what's left of it.  "Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither"  - B. Franklin
If the U.S. IS exceptional, a "city on the hill" and a "becon of liberty" than it has to be that not only when it is convienient but all the time.  Liberties are hard to win, but even harder to get back once lost.  You gotta KEEP FIGHTING for what is right, peace, justice, human rights, THE RULE OF LAW.  Sacrificing principle to temporary expiediency never works.  It didn't work at Neuremberg in '38 (? I'm bad with dates) and it isn't going to work now.

Quoting:


I'm not going to pretend to be as well read as you, but I have an observation regarding this post.

Isn't one of the arguments being used in the anti war movement that the US and UK cannot invade on the assumption that Iraq might be a threat in the future?

Well isn't everything you said above just speculation as well?
End Quote

Yes, RC, it certainly is.  BUT it's a line of speculation no one wants to confront.  And if you think about the balance of forces, and what has been said, and what we are dealing with, it's at lease as likely as a democratic, pluralist, secular, ie "rosie" outcome.  I will post a non-response when I finish going through this thread that will, I hope, make sense, even to the Bush can't be wrong crowd (although I doubt it) ::)

Quoting:


I will stand-up for 80sRocked and say you do not have the right and it is not your place to suggest anything to anyone.

Opinions welcome. Personal suggestions to members are not.
End Quote

Thanks for the up-braid, BUT, there is a TON of science behind stratistical analysis and the science of sampling.  You can reject it if you like, but you should at least understand just what it is that you are rejecting.  Lots of firms conduct sampling for lots of purposes, and $$$millions hang on some results.  Samples of around 1000 scientifically selected respondents are routine.  And you might want to re-read the rest of my post.

Quoting:
Don Carlos,

The more I read from you, the more all I can think of is the scene in Red Dawn where the boys find their father in the concentration camp at the drive-in, and you can hear the Soviet propaganda in the background.  You remind me of that propaganda.

As much as I was against this war, I do realize that it is the right thing to do.  Saddam is a dangerous individual, who needs to be removed, and the U.N. is too consumed in politics to be of any effect.  That is clear.

Am I happy about the war?

No.

But I will support it, and wholly.  If, in your eyes, that makes me a Nazi (which it seems to), then so be it.  I also know I'll sleep better when people like Saddam are removed from any sort of power and I don't have to worry about what might be waiting for my kids one day at school.

As far as you seem to be concerned, you seem to think war is never necessary.  You act like you are in possession of all of the facts here, and I'm quite sure you are not.  But I liken your position to this:
Say I walk up to you, and I hit you.  You will get up, brush off, and stand there while I hit you again.  And again.  And again.  And again.

Now, are you going to let that pattern continue, or are you going to fight back at some point?

Now, to make it more comparative to this situation, let's say you are a bully.  You have been known to hit others at will already.  I get reliable information that you are planning to hit me, or that you're making a weapon to use against me or some of my friends.  You're not at that point yet, though.  What should I do?  Should I knock you down now, or wait until you have finished your plans and put them into effect, hitting me and my friends?  And if I wait, am I not responsible for not acting when I knew what was going to happen?
End Quote

ThunderVamp, excellent post. ;)

Quoting:

With all due respect -

What the h e l l planet do you live on?

I think you must have been out running errands the day the rest of the Heaven's Gate clan "took off" without you.

I really don't mean any disrespect to you or your opinion - but man, you're totally out there!  

I honestly don't see the how you can honestly compare the US to Nazi Germany.  That is a travesty that you actually think that way.

To hear you talk about the anti war protesters writing letters, holding vigils and whatever in the world else they do, is quite humorous.  Will you also be condeming the soldiers when they return just like the "hippies" did at the conclusion of the VietNam war?  

Come on.  I sit here at my desk reading this in absolute disbelief.    
End Quote

First, you "with all due respect" not withstanding, I find your illusions to the heaven's gate crowd etc offensive, but never mind - I ignore personal attacks.  They always tend to come when the attacker can think of no other way to respond.
As to the comparison with Nazi Germany:  I am, and have always been a law abiding citizen of this here "land of the free" (ONE traffic ticket in my whole life - which I suspect has been longer than yours) yet I have an FBI file containing photos of me protesting the war in Vietnam (NOT the troops) and supporting the Allende regime in Chile against Nixon/Kissinger aggression.  Many other peaceful, crimeless people that I know have also been targeted for "survaillance", and for the concentration camps that our gov"t maintains to imprison dissidents "during periods of national emergency".  We can have our rights as long as we don't use them, or use them to support the status quo.  I'll bet that ANYONE could have stood under the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin and praised  Hitler in, say 1940, but call him, as Patton did, "that son of a pregnant dog paper hanger" would have gotten you a trip to Auswits.  And I say again, IT CAN HAPPEN HERE, if we let it.

Let me emphasis that I do support the poor sob grunts on the front lines.  Most, or at least many of them are poor whites and people of color who saw the military as a way up - just look at our Secretary of State - and are now caught up in a bad place not of their making.  I felt the same way in the Vietnam era, but some did get out of hand.  Lt. Calley at Mai Lie FE

Quoting:I'll bet that ANYONE could have stood under the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin and praised  Hitler in, say 1940, but call him, as Patton did, "that son of a pregnant dog paper hanger" would have gotten you a trip to Auswits.  
End Quote

hmmm, the same secenario, just with different people and locations, is happening in Iraq right now.  And yet you don't feel the need to change it.  

Interesting...

Quoting:


First, you "with all due respect" not withstanding, I find your illusions to the heaven's gate crowd etc offensive, but never mind - I ignore personal attacks.  They always tend to come when the attacker can think of no other way to respond.
As to the comparison with Nazi Germany:  I am, and have always been a law abiding citizen of this here "land of the free" (ONE traffic ticket in my whole life - which I suspect has been longer than yours) yet I have an FBI file containing photos of me protesting the war in Vietnam (NOT the troops) and supporting the Allende regime in Chile against Nixon/Kissinger aggression.  Many other peaceful, crimeless people that I know have also been targeted for "survaillance", and for the concentration camps that our gov"t maintains to imprison dissidents "during periods of national emergency".  We can have our rights as long as we don't use them, or use them to support the status quo.  I'll bet that ANYONE could have stood under the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin and praised  Hitler in, say 1940, but call him, as Patton did, "that son of a pregnant dog paper hanger" would have gotten you a trip to Auswits.  And I say again, IT CAN HAPPEN HERE, if we let it.

Let me emphasis that I do support the poor sob grunts on the front lines.  Most, or at least many of them are poor whites and people of color who saw the military as a way up - just look at our Secretary of State - and are now caught up in a bad place not of their making.  I felt the same way in the Vietnam era, but some did get out of hand.  Lt. Calley at Mai Lie FE

End Quote

Ah, the response.
After you get to know me (outside of these war related topics) you'll see that I do have many ways to respond to delusional people.  Just ask anyone here.  I'm being nice to you since you're new and seem so fanatical about this.

No, it doesn't surprise me that the FBI has a file on you.  Nor does it surprise me that you seem proud and delighted by this or else you wouldn't have shared that. Thank you for confirming that I am not the only one who thinks you're an extremist.

I'm sure that my friends & family members, (Notre Dame, Harvard, MIT, West Point grads among others) will be thrilled to hear that you think "most, or at least many of them" are "poor whites who saw the military as a way up".  Odd to you obviously, that some people LIKE what they do and are proud of what they do.  They aren't stuck in a job wishing they could do more.  They are doing it!

Quoting:
Don Carlos,

The more I read from you, the more all I can think of is the scene in Red Dawn where the boys find their father in the concentration camp at the drive-in, and you can hear the Soviet propaganda in the background.  You remind me of that propaganda.
End Quote

Well, TV, I'm not familiar with the film, so I can't respond to that, but I can assure you that I am not a Soviet propogandist, not even a member of any communist organization.  The rerst of your post put the current pre-emptive attack issue on a personal basis.  I agree that the question does pose a real dilemma.  Do I take action to protect myself - and what action?- before I am attacked, or do I trust in my ability to respond?  In my own life I have been faces with this dilemma.  My  response as a teen first, to prepare myself for an attack, and on one occasion to attack first.  The other guy got a bloody nose - five minutes of pain - I got suspended from school and my dad busted my butt with extra chores, no allowance etc.  But when I was attacked first, and defended myself - one wrestling team member had back pains for 3 weeks, the other had groin pain for some time - I got off scott free because several people testified that the two of them ganged up on my.  I was attacked, I fought back, I "won".  Dad was proud. I lost, because violence isn't the answer.

In the international context of today, and historically, we preserved the peace for how many years with containment of the Soviet Union (and they could have anhialated all of us)?  

Quoting:


ThunderVamp, excellent post. ;)
End Quote

I also agree with 80sRocked - ThunderVamp made one excellent post.  A very complex issue was put into simple terms for everyone to understand.  Well done.  I would also like to add that its not just Americans who are scared about the future - this is one VERY frightened little Aussie.

Quoting:


hmmm, the same secenario, just with different people and locations, is happening in Iraq right now.  And yet you don't feel the need to change it.  

Interesting...
End Quote

Actually, I would very much like to see that changed, and George 1st had the opportunity, just not the gonads to do it.  He had the international coalition, the troops, and the U.N.  He just wimped out.  So now George II want's to redeem his daddy.  The U.S. simply can't be the world's policeman.  We can oppose evel by refusing to support it - our recond here is dismal (Guatamala, Brazil, Chile, East Timor, Cambodia, Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador - good God, the list is endless).  Maybe if we were to go back to Jimmy Carter's foriegn  policy, and amplify it, we could gain credibility in the world forum, and support from the rest of the world.  Maybe when we act with more than our own self interest at heart, and act for humanity, others will follow.

Quoting:
Don't overkill us with it though.  You know how the members here feel about zealots! :)End Quote

I got carried away with the moment. It's cool.

Quoting:Most, or at least many of them are poor whites and people of color who saw the military as a way up...End Quote

That is just another of your assumptions, nothing more.

Quoting:

Ah, the response.
(1 My respons) After you get to know me (outside of these war related topics) you'll see that I do have many ways to respond to delusional people.  Just ask anyone here.  I'm being nice to you since you're new and seem so fanatical about this.

(Respons 2) No, it doesn't surprise me that the FBI has a file on you.  Nor does it surprise me that you seem proud and delighted by this or else you wouldn't have shared that. Thank you for confirming that I am not the only one who thinks you're an extremist.

(respons 3) I'm sure that my friends & family members, (Notre Dame, Harvard, MIT, West Point grads among others) will be thrilled to hear that you think "most, or at least many of them" are "poor whites who saw the military as a way up".  Odd to you obviously, that some people LIKE what they do and are proud of what they do.  They aren't stuck in a job wishing they could do more.  They are doing it!
End Quote

Response 1: Please don't "be nice".  I don';t need your patronizing BS and can very well defend my position without you pulling your punches.  The folks who called me "spic" in my youth learned that I can brawl with the best of them.  I'd rather debate on the basis of reason and logic, but if you want to fight in the gutter, I'm game.

Response 2: Why should the FBI have files on law abiding citizens?  Why should those who disagree with government policy be subjected to survaillance?  Does not the Constitution give us the right to dissent?  Does that not imply FREE DISSENT?  Sure I don't mind the FIB having a file on me.  Let them.  I'll send my partner an e-mail about the guns buried in the back yard, and the National Guard will dig up my garden for me.  Then they will put me in a camp - without a warrent, without charge, incommunicado.  This is not  science fiction.  These are the plans that are in effect!!!!  And NO, I am NOT paranoid.

Response 3:  Just look at the demographics of the U.S. military.  Maybe your relatives are hot shot college graduates and officers (Legacy admissions?), but the majority of the grunts on the line ARE, I think, minorities, and if you have sats to dispute that, let's see them!!!

Quoting:the majority of the grunts on the line...End Quote

You must have a large chip on your shoulder. Why are you so personally affected? Might as well share that too.

Why do you feel the need to insult the soldiers? You've called them "grunts" and "sob grunts". Don't you feel that to be wrong?

Quoting:
America has become a country that has grown too fond of war. We have sanitized it. We push a button and the job is done, we have a crater in place of a power plant. We have done away with the horrors of war. The only time Americans die is through accidents and huge errors on the part of commanders.

Now that fewer of our boys die out in the field, we give ourselves the illusion that people don't die in wars. We get the images of war filtered through FOX cameras. If we truely knew what war meant, we would not be so eager to  start one. We need another "war is hell" movie to bring us back to our senses. Until we understand the value of the lives that are going to be lost in this exercise of military might, we cannot go to war.End Quote

You are generalizing. That's not the way it is at all. I do not like war, but this generalization you posted is too simplistic, superficial and untrue, IMO.

Quoting:
Now that fewer of our boys die out in the field, we give ourselves the illusion that people don't die in wars. End Quote

Quoting:If we truely knew what war meant, we would not be so eager to  start one. We need another "war is hell" movie to bring us back to our senses. End Quote

That is purely ridiculous.   ::)

Do you honestly beleive people think war is a walk in the park?  Of course people die in wars, thats no mystery.  

However, with what we know going on against the Iraqi people, sitting here doing nothing is the worst thing we can do.  

Quoting:We get the images of war filtered through FOX cameras. End Quote

oh yes, the evil conspirators at FOX are at it again. ::)
(sarcasm)

You just criticised FOX for distorting our vision of war, but you think Hollywood making a war movie will set us straight?  I hope you realize the idiocy of this.

Quoting:


You must have a large chip on your shoulder. Why are you so personally affected? Might as well share that too.

Why do you feel the need to insult the soldiers? You've called them "grunts" and "sob grunts". Don't you feel that to be wrong?End Quote

I mean no offense to the brave and patriotic young men and wemen in  our armed forces.  I have the utmost respect for them and for their dedication to all that we, as a nation, value. I call them "grunts" because that's how they are seen by "the powers that be".  Do you think that George II gives a good G. D. about your brother, cousin, nephiew, etc. who may be on the line?  Hardly.  My heart goes out to those poor men and women who are being asked to LAY DOWN THIER LIVES, and TO KILL for...what, SUV's?  My guess is that if you polled those troops you would find that most of them:
1: would rather be home in bed with their significant others
2: don't have a lot of understanding of why they are where they are.
3: understand the Military Code of Justice, which means they don"t get to vote on this issue.  Maybe a truely democaratic society would let those who were going to bear the brunt of the fight to vote on its neccessity.  Wouldn't that be interesting?

So, I do hold the young people who volunteer to join out armed forces in thew highest regard.  Maybe if Mr Bush did too, he would be a bit more reluctant to put them in harm's way!!!

Quoting:My guess is that if you polled those troops you would find that most of them:
1: would rather be home in bed with their significant others
2: don't have a lot of understanding of why they are where they are.
3: understand the Military Code of Justice, which means they don"t get to vote on this issue.  Maybe a truely democaratic society would let those who were going to bear the brunt of the fight to vote on its neccessity.  Wouldn't that be interesting?End Quote

for points 2 and 3, I think you are wrong.  Many join the military because they beleive in its purpose, and are proud to be there to serve their country, beleive it or not.  

As for point 1, I think that would probably be the case in any war, not just this one.  So that is totally irrelevent.

Quoting:So, I do hold the young people who volunteer to join out armed forces in thew highest regard. End Quote

...you sure have a strange way of showing it.  I'm sorry but I'm not convinced.

Quoting:


for points 2 and 3, I think you are wrong.  Many join the military because they beleive in its purpose, and are proud to be there to serve their country, beleive it or not.  

As for point 1, I think that would probably be the case in any war, not just this one.  So that is totally irrelevent.




...you sure have a strange way of showing it.  I'm sorry but I'm not convinced.


End Quote

Point 1: So you are saying that you think that the vast majority of high school graduates in our amred forces (most of them minorities) have a firm grasp of geo-political issues, and international affairs?  Sure they MAY have entered the service to protect etc.  but my guess is that they entered because it looked like a good job, with the possibility of a future, and good benefits (although my vet partner might dispute that).  Geeze, I have been accused of being in the clouds, but where in H are you?  The average high school graduate hasn't the foggiest idea where Iraq is, who Saddam is, and what's going on in all this.  All they know is that George II has said "lets go to war, we need to".  You seem like a smart person, it amazes me that you can be so blind to the hypocracy of all this.  Not just on the U.S. side, but all over.  If you have missed it, I want  SOMETHING BETTER for this country and for this world.  I believe that with compassion, reason, and an understanding of history, we can achieve it.  I guess that makes me...what?

Quoting:
If you don't like her....leave her!  No one is keeping you here.  Move someplace where your feelings are felt by everyone else...maybe...Hum.....Russia?
End Quote

I second that! We aren't begging you to stay, move to Cuba if you love it so much! Bye!

Quoting:
Interesting.  All of the sudden we're collectively making personal attacks.
End Quote

I'm small and scared.

Hold me ;) :) :D ;D

Quoting:


I'm small and scared.

Hold me ;) :) :D ;D
End Quote

Don't do it, cs!! It's just a trick... he has an ulterior motive!!  ;D

Quoting:


Don't do it, cs!! It's just a trick... he has an ulterior motive!!  ;D
End Quote

Snap :P !

The Force is strong with this one 8)

Quoting:
If you don't like her....leave her!  No one is keeping you here.  Move someplace where your feelings are felt by everyone else...maybe...Hum.....Russia?
End Quote

I'm not really sure that this was aimed at me, but I'll respond anyway.  

It's the same bull dung that I heard from the hawks during the Vietnam War, and its just as much s**t now as it was then.  Then, just as now, the people "rallied round the flag" as some have suggested that we do, only to find out (after half the young folks who died didn't have to) that we cound have had peace in 1968 or '69.  Even McNamara  admitts as much in his book, and he was there, on the inside.  In this case, read Wolfowitz, Rummy, Olsen, and the "good old boys" now esconsed in the White House.  They had no intention for diplomacy to work.  They see the coming world as the U.S. imperium.  They have said so and they are doing it.  It's very fair to say that "these color (red, white and blue) don't run, but they don't run the world either, and the sooner we learn that, the better.  Our overthrowing of governments, all over, has gotten us into this mess, so will more of the same get us out?  How?  And  some of you call me off the wall.  Good God, folks, how can you be some blind, and so arogant?

Quoting:


Point 1: So you are saying that you think that the vast majority of high school graduates in our amred forces (most of them minorities) have a firm grasp of geo-political issues, and international affairs?  Sure they MAY have entered the service to protect etc.  but my guess is that they entered because it looked like a good job, with the possibility of a future, and good benefits (although my vet partner might dispute that).  Geeze, I have been accused of being in the clouds, but where in H are you?  The average high school graduate hasn't the foggiest idea where Iraq is, who Saddam is, and what's going on in all this.  All they know is that George II has said "lets go to war, we need to".  You seem like a smart person, it amazes me that you can be so blind to the hypocracy of all this.  Not just on the U.S. side, but all over.  If you have missed it, I want  SOMETHING BETTER for this country and for this world.  I believe that with compassion, reason, and an understanding of history, we can achieve it.  I guess that makes me...what?
End Quote

And you, my friend, haven't got a clue about the average high school graduate if you believe this.  I graduated high school, and joined the army myself.  I knew just what I was getting into, and why I was doing it.  And if we had gone to war during my time, then you can bet I would have gone, willingly.  You can NOT tell me that our tropps over in Kuwait right now don't know why they are there.  I have family and friends there.  They know why they are there, and they want to be there, even though it means they're away from their families.

Your posts give them no credit, indicate they have a lack of intelligence, and amazes me that you can be so blind as to think that comapssion, reason and understanding of history can achieve any form of peace with a man like Saddam Hussein, who kills people just for speaking out against him.

Quoting:


I'm not really sure that this was aimed at me, but I'll respond anyway.  

End Quote

I would have thought that there was not much doubt.... ::) :)

Quoting:


I would have thought that there was not much doubt.... ::) :)
End Quote

Good call, lurker dude!

Quoting:


Well, TV, I'm not familiar with the film, so I can't respond to that, but I can assure you that I am not a Soviet propogandist, not even a member of any communist organization.  The rerst of your post put the current pre-emptive attack issue on a personal basis.  I agree that the question does pose a real dilemma.  Do I take action to protect myself - and what action?- before I am attacked, or do I trust in my ability to respond?  In my own life I have been faces with this dilemma.  My  response as a teen first, to prepare myself for an attack, and on one occasion to attack first.  The other guy got a bloody nose - five minutes of pain - I got suspended from school and my dad busted my butt with extra chores, no allowance etc.  But when I was attacked first, and defended myself - one wrestling team member had back pains for 3 weeks, the other had groin pain for some time - I got off scott free because several people testified that the two of them ganged up on my.  I was attacked, I fought back, I "won".  Dad was proud. I lost, because violence isn't the answer.

In the international context of today, and historically, we preserved the peace for how many years with containment of the Soviet Union (and they could have anhialated all of us)?  
End Quote

The consequences of your dad have no bearing on the argument I presented.  You did not answer the questions I asked.  You gave me more of your philosophy, which we're all well aware of by now.  Read my questions again.  Give straight answers to them, because in essence, that's what we're looking at for situations right now.

As for the Soviet Union?  In our lifetimes the Soviet Union wasn't run by a madman.  But what about during Stalin's reign?  What about all the time's the Soviet Union DID invade a foreign nation, and set up a communist regime?  You protested in the 60's, did you decry the invasion of Czechoslovakia?  Did you decry the invasion of Afghanistan in the 80's?  How was that containment?  We outlasted them with a superior economy and defense.  They didn't annhilate becasue we could have annhilated them.  Had the opportunity presented itself to give the Soviets the upper hand, do you honestly think they wouldn't have taken it?  If you answer yes, then you are far more deluded than I could have possibly imagined.  This is the same Soviet Empire that said "We will bury you."  The only thing that kept things in balance was the knowledge that our destruction would mean their destruction.

Quoting:
  southernspitfire,

  Whew...! thank you for your measured response, I don't want to be the one to find out the meaning of your nic. ;)

  I realize there's been much America-bashing here of late.  First, let me say that I bash the USA administration, not the USA in general.

  What do I love about America? This is my home.

  I love the National parks of California and Nevada, trout fishing in a stream, Harley Davidsons. I love that going to another state or faraway city can be like going to another country. I love The Blues: B.B.King, Taj Mahal, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, Howlin Wolf, Sugarcane Harris, Champion Jack Dupree and Robert Johnson. I love that often-annoying feistiness in the American character, our diverse culture, and the Constitution that allows just about any old nutcase to become President. I love Eric Sloane, Richard Brautigan, Carlos Castaneda, Ken Kesey, Thomas Cole, Georgia O'Keefe. I love KrispyKreme Bavarian cream-filled rolls. I love walking to the local market to pick up a newspaper on the first warm day of spring, crickets arguing on a hot summer evening, enjoying my first cup of coffee outside on a crisp fall morning.

  I love the optimism and generosity of spirit of the American people --THAT is our greatest natural resource. I love the spirit we demonstrated with the Marshall Plan, the long tradition of slowly, but inexorably, building greater and greater. I love the inscription on our forgotten gift from oft-reviled France: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

  I also remind myself that we did not invent freedom, nor have we perfected it- we did not make this land, nor have we protected it. It's still waiting to be shared and treasured more respectfully. So beautiful, spacious, bountiful, and deserving of our thankfulness and not self-congratulation.
End Quote

Very well put.  I agree with you totally (except I might add Little Walter, Bo Diddley and Guy Clark to the list.)  :)

Quoting:

If you don't like and have not liked for many years what the US does, then why even bother b!tching about it.  No one is forced to live here, and esp if you are from another country, then go back to the one you came from, esp. if it was SO much better than this one.  End Quote

Good point, SS.

DC, Go to a political message board to "discuss" this topic further.  I'm sure there are plenty of sites dedicated to non-support of the US and its politics.  You might have more fun there.  
We're not here to necessarily change each other's minds on any subject, unlike you.  We're here to voice our opinions realizing that we all won't agree but respecting each other and their opinions in the process.  You have shown nothing (as far as I can tell) except bitterness and attack each person's comments.  I'll not get into a battle of wits and logic with you as it wouldn't be a fair fight.  You have to first be a logical thinker (yes, THAT was a shot).  
According to you, because some of our troops are educated at finer schools they are called legacy admissions?  So just because they are educated means they couldn't possibly be 'stupid' enough to join the armed services?  That's what it sounds like you said.  I'll tell my dad and uncles that.  I'm sure they'll chuckle.  We were all International Politics majors.
Thanks for the fun DC.  I can no longer dignify your posts with responses defending my friends, family and country.
As Hairspray said, this thread has run its course.
Move along buddy, there's nothing to see here.

Quoting:

And you, my friend, haven't got a clue about the average high school graduate if you believe this.  I graduated high school, and joined the army myself.  I knew just what I was getting into, and why I was doing it.  And if we had gone to war during my time, then you can bet I would have gone, willingly.  You can NOT tell me that our tropps over in Kuwait right now don't know why they are there.  I have family and friends there.  They know why they are there, and they want to be there, even though it means they're away from their families.

Your posts give them no credit, indicate they have a lack of intelligence, and amazes me that you can be so blind as to think that comapssion, reason and understanding of history can achieve any form of peace with a man like Saddam Hussein, who kills people just for speaking out against him.
End Quote

Actuall, my friend, I deal with recent high school grads every day.  They are the frshmen in my courses on U.S. History.  Many don't even know in what Century the Civil War was fought, much less the dates.  Most have no idea who the antagonists in WWII were, beyong the U.S., Germany, and Japan. Get hold of "Non Campus Mentis" compiled by Andres Henriksson, not only will you get a laugh, you'll get an education on how little recent H.S. grads know.  Its truely scarey

Quoting:
Davester....

The way I see it...there are SOOOOOO many people out there damning this war before it EVEN gets started...and I did state..and stick with...if you don't like what our country does...and are against EVERYTHING it has ever done...as DC has said...then feel free to leave.  I agree not everyone is gonna agree with what is going on right now, but don't toss your BS at me and expect me to listen to you (not you in this case..others here)

If you don't like and have not liked for many years what the US does, then why even bother b!tching about it.  No one is forced to live here, and esp if you are from another country, then go back to the one you came from, esp. if it was SO much better than this one.  As I said in another post somewhere on this board, what are we suppose to do, live in fear of Saddam for the rest of our lives??  I am not per say in support of this war...but there has to be an end somewhere at sometime.  I am sorry if you were offended....but from what I have seen today, there have been alot of people offended here today..so what did I say so wrong by my statement that has not been said in other ways here....directed to many, many more people?
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I could go back to the country of my roots, and wouldn't need a passport to do it.  Any U.S. citizen can go there without one.  But I would still be subject to the draft (if I were young enough), but would have no vote in national elections, and no representation in Congress.  That should be enough for you to figure out my country of origin.  Interestingly enough, we were made U.S. citizens by act of Congress in 1917, just in time for the WWI draft.
And I ask again, what will Georgie boy do when China decides that Tiawan is a threat to its security and launches a pre-emptive strike - THEY HAVE LOTS of nucs!!!

Quoting:And I ask again, what will Georgie boy do when China decides that Tiawan is a threat to its security and launches a pre-emptive strike - THEY HAVE LOTS of nucs!!!
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how the h*ll is one supposed to answer a question like that?  

You keep posting all these little speculations that are floating around in your head, and expect people to react to them as if they were facts. ::)

Quoting:
  southernspitfire,

  Whew...! thank you for your measured response, I don't want to be the one to find out the meaning of your nic. ;)

  I realize there's been much America-bashing here of late.  First, let me say that I bash the USA administration, not the USA in general.

  What do I love about America? This is my home.

  I love the National parks of California and Nevada, trout fishing in a stream, Harley Davidsons. I love that going to another state or faraway city can be like going to another country. I love The Blues: B.B.King, Taj Mahal, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, Howlin Wolf, Sugarcane Harris, Champion Jack Dupree and Robert Johnson. I love that often-annoying feistiness in the American character, our diverse culture, and the Constitution that allows just about any old nutcase to become President. I love Eric Sloane, Richard Brautigan, Carlos Castaneda, Ken Kesey, Thomas Cole, Georgia O'Keefe. I love KrispyKreme Bavarian cream-filled rolls. I love walking to the local market to pick up a newspaper on the first warm day of spring, crickets arguing on a hot summer evening, enjoying my first cup of coffee outside on a crisp fall morning.

  I love the optimism and generosity of spirit of the American people --THAT is our greatest natural resource. I love the spirit we demonstrated with the Marshall Plan, the long tradition of slowly, but inexorably, building greater and greater. I love the inscription on our forgotten gift from oft-reviled France: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

  I also remind myself that we did not invent freedom, nor have we perfected it- we did not make this land, nor have we protected it. It's still waiting to be shared and treasured more respectfully. So beautiful, spacious, bountiful, and deserving of our thankfulness and not self-congratulation.
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RIGHT ON DAVESTER!!!

What I DON"T love is the Enron b***rds who robbed their employees, the racist strian that continues through our society, waisting valuable talent becuase some people are just different, our foreign policy that claims rights based on power, and that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and that overthrows foreign gov'ts because wall street doesn't like them.  I don't like butterfly ballots or hanging chards.  I don't like the fact that most of Congress has been bought and paid for.  I don't like the anti-labor laws on the books, like Taft-Hartley or Landrum-Griffin.  

I DO love the fact that we can change these things, if only we have the will, but not by being lemmings marching to the precipis.  We CAN make this country "all that it can be" only by working at it, not by knuckling under to our "leaders".

Quoting:
I could go back to the country of my roots, and wouldn't need a passport to do it.  Any U.S. citizen can go there without one.  But I would still be subject to the draft (if I were young enough), but would have no vote in national elections, and no representation in Congress.  That should be enough for you to figure out my country of origin.  Interestingly enough, we were made U.S. citizens by act of Congress in 1917, just in time for the WWI draft.
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That's Puerto Rico, folks.  Because of a little thing called the Spanish - America war (in 1898, I believe), which we won, and the Jones Act.

See?  I knowed that there degree I gots wuz good fer sumthin.  

Quoting:
Oh no! Are we still on this topic?! The world will end and the two things that will survive are cockroaches and this thread :) :D ;D

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Don't forget about Volvos ;)  Those cars are indestructible ;D

Can't you see wave after wave of cockroaches rushing towards the Volvo dealerships to hop inside the cars before the nukes fall upon us?  :D

I have a sick mind ::)

Quoting:
Oh no! Are we still on this topic?! The world will end and the two things that will survive are cockroaches and this thread :) :D ;D

Ah! The Spanish-American War: "Remember The Maine!"

It is still written in some history books as a mysterious happening, dontyouknow? A good way to begin a process called Manifest Destiny on an international scale. Spain: A weak empire riddled with internal problems and lots of real estate floating all over the Atlantic and the Pacific just there for the takin'. It wasn't that hard to fight that cream puff ;)
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TB, you crack me up!

Damn skippy, "Remember the Maine"! ;)

In 1898 the United States declared war on Spain following the sinking of the Battleship Maine in Havana harbor on February 1898. The war ended with the signing of the Treaty of Paris. The result: Spain lost its control over the remains of its overseas empire -- Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippine islands, Guam, and other islands.
This, my friends, is the reason we have to listen to Don Carlos rant.  We wanted 'em, now we got 'em (Not a shot DC, just having some fun with you - lighten up!).

Quoting:
I still think we should have used diplomacy until other countries backed us. End Quote

::)

Diplomacy works only if BOTH sides are willing to cooperate.  What the h*ll do you think has been going on the last 8 months with the UN?  

This war could have easily started last year.  But we tried to be diplomatic about it, and Iraq refused.

What part of that don't you understand?

Quoting:
Why is it immature to hate war? Why don't you think my argument is legitimate?
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everybody hates war, nobody in their right mind loves war.

However, you, and many others, are determined that war is never a solution.  War is always the last resort and Iraq refused to allow diplomacy to prevail.  

Quoting:I know what the situation is, and I believe very strongly that Saddam is going to make it uglyEnd Quote

you are speculating.  You have no idea what the outcome of this war will be, and nor does anyone else.  You are basing your judgements and opposition on speculations that may or may not even happen.

Quoting:
I think that if enough pressure was applied, Saddam could stay penned in and not be a threat to anyone.
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for what, 2 or 3 years?  

And then what, leave the problem for our kids to deal with?

He has been pinned in by the laughable UN resolutions for the last 12 years, and has violated every one of them.