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Subject: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Yay! No more barbarism! :D
Although I do support the right to choose, there are some lines that shouldn't be crossed...
The story:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/883389.asp
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
‘Its disturbing similarity to the killing of a newborn infant promotes a complete disregard for infant human life.’
— SENATE ABORTION BILL
I totally agree! This ban should have been passed a LONG time ago.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
These types of abortions are just wrong and never should have been performed in the first place. However, I do have a problem with only the doctor being prosecuted. I also feel the mother should be considered an accomplice.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
I can understand why people would draw the line at a certain stage of development but why at this particular procedure?
Surely all abortions are effectively the same, the foetus is terminated. I'm not sure why this particular method is considered 'different' enough to prohibit whilst other methods remain legal.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
I am glad that this happened; however, I believe that the idiot Dems are just going to overturn it when they regain power (and it will happen, unfortunately).
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
I am glad that this happened; however, I believe that the idiot Dems are just going to overturn it when they regain power...
End Quote
Screwball, I think you're probably right. After all, our last "president", a Democrat, was a supporter of this barbaric practice.
How someone could support partial-birth abortion is beyond me.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
I can understand why people would draw the line at a certain stage of development but why at this particular procedure?
Surely all abortions are effectively the same, the foetus is terminated. I'm not sure why this particular method is considered 'different' enough to prohibit whilst other methods remain legal.
End Quote
I assume it's for the same reason that people protest KFC killing chickens inhumanely.
That's probably a horrible comparison.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
How someone could support partial-birth abortion is beyond me.
End Quote
OK, I don't mean to be funny, or insulting, but could you justify this view?
I checked the net for this procedure, and it didn't seem much more (or less) distasteful than any other form of abortion.
If you oppose all methods of abortion then fair enough, but why does this one stand out?
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
OK, I don't mean to be funny, or insulting, but could you justify this view?
I checked the net for this procedure, and it didn't seem much more (or less) distasteful than any other form of abortion.
If you oppose all methods of abortion then fair enough, but why does this one stand out?
End Quote
First of all, I don't favor any type of abortion. But I am especially critical of partial-birth abortion simply due to the stage of develpoment that it takes place. Its simply barbaric and can be called nothing short of murder prefaced by physical torture.
Have you ever seen footage of this practice taking place? I have, and believe me, it stuck with me.
I agree with 80s_Cheerleader in that not only should the doctor perfoming this be prosecuted, but also the mother. Its unbeleiveable that someone can justify this practice.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
That's probably a horrible comparison.
End Quote
Your right
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
The biggest problem I have with this is what was said above...it's waaaaaaaay too late in the pregnancy, when you actually have to induce labor to get the baby out instead of sucking it out with a vacuum cleaner. Plus, THAT LATE in the pregnancy, you might as well go through with it.
As for banning all abortions, that probably will never happen. You can't please all the people all of the time. But this law, if passed, would at least set limits on abortion.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
I am very much liberal on every topic except abortion. Instead of a balanced budget, peace and prosperity, I get a ban on partial birth abortion as a consolation prize. This is the only thing that this administration is doing right.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
I am not going to go into details about my views on abortion, as they can be surmised from previous threads....so, as to this ban- let me just say, "It's a beginning."
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
The biggest problem I have with this is what was said above...it's waaaaaaaay too late in the pregnancy, when you actually have to induce labor to get the baby out instead of sucking it out with a vacuum cleaner
End Quote
Would you still say this if your partner had a scan which showed conjoined twins (Siamese) that were joined in such a manner that they could not ever be separated? Not even to allow one twin to live. This happened to friends of mine.
In the UK the ultrasound scan is often not performed until 20 weeks. This means the pregnancy is too far advanced for any other means of abortion other than an induced labour. Now, I haven't discussed the intimate details with my friends but I'm fairly sure the method mentioned is not used here.
Until you've been in this situation you cannot condemn anyone.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
Would you still say this if your partner had a scan which showed conjoined twins (Siamese) that were joined in such a manner that they could not ever be separated? Not even to allow one twin to live. This happened to friends of mine.
In the UK the ultrasound scan is often not performed until 20 weeks. This means the pregnancy is too far advanced for any other means of abortion other than an induced labour. Now, I haven't discussed the intimate details with my friends but I'm fairly sure the method mentioned is not used here.
Until you've been in this situation you cannot condemn anyone.
End Quote
Blerg? I'm afraid I don't understand. Your situation sounds like they want to SAVE the baby/babies, not kill it.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
I'm glad they banned them. I am supportive of the right to choose, but killing them as they are being born is just wrong.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
You are right on this point Taoist. That is why I do oppose all methods of abortion and hope that we don't have any in the future. However, the majority of abortion rights advocates claim that mothers (because it's "their" body ::)) do have a right to murder babies, whether it's a fetus or a grown baby. At least with the partial abortion ban, the law can at least distinguish legal from illegal abortions. But the practice should be banned altogether.
Quoting:
If you oppose all methods of abortion then fair enough, but why does this one stand out?
End Quote
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
good
Subject: Side note on abortion...
It occurs to me that my son, whom I've not seen in years, turned sixteen years old, as of January 20th. I had forgotten until just this moment.
So, as to the birth of my son, sixteen years (and change) ago I and his mother's struggling with the notion of abortion...I'm remembering, now...
To make it a political topic, I ought to include the historical note that I was not involved in the original "decision" to complete the pregnancy. As an editorial note, I don't care. Sure, as a matter of formal propriety, I would have liked to have been consulted, but in the end I would have handed the decision right back to her; it is, after all, a woman's right.
For a counterpoint, I might point to my best friend, who was absolutely enchanted by Daniel Lee (my son). More recently, he, too, left that decision to a woman to whom he pledged honorable conduct at least. She chose an abortion, and he has even gone so far as to express regret at the decision. But there was no way he could in good conscience force a coked-up, self-obsessed all-around-great-friend-but-I-wouldn't-want-to-date-her woman to go through with an unwanted pregnancy. The choice to leave it in her hands is as much a choice as the choice to bang her in the first place. It was, ethically, the right thing for him to do. But when he looks at pictures of my neborn son, he looks like a man who remembers a best friend from days almost forgotten. A human conscience is a thing of beauty, but so is death or warfare if you look at it just so. He lives in a country where one is free to have a conscience. Rarely does life present a chapter so simply poetic as this, but I've watched it. Sometimes I think he tortures himself with conscience simply because he can, and it's his one known opportunity to really lay himself out for something legitimate. Everybody tends to stand on the streetcorner and pray; at least his show is worth watching.
Two cents, whatnot.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
Blerg? I'm afraid I don't understand. Your situation sounds like they want to SAVE the baby/babies, not kill it.
End Quote
Rice
If my friends had carried on with the pregnancy she may or may not have got to full term with them. They would not have survived more than an hour or so after being born. Rather than carry the babies for as long as they wanted to remain in the womb isn't it better to make a conscious decision to end it as humanely as possible for all concerned?
I'm not saying that the method described in your article is humane and I'm almost 100% certain that this method wasn't used in this case. All I am saying is that until you are in any situation where you are talking about abortion in a serious fashion because it personally affects you, you can not say how other people should behave.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
Rice
If my friends had carried on with the pregnancy she may or may not have got to full term with them. They would not have survived more than an hour or so after being born. Rather than carry the babies for as long as they wanted to remain in the womb isn't it better to make a conscious decision to end it as humanely as possible for all concerned?
I'm not saying that the method described in your article is humane and I'm almost 100% certain that this method wasn't used in this case. All I am saying is that until you are in any situation where you are talking about abortion in a serious fashion because it personally affects you, you can not say how other people should behave.
End Quote
I am sorry but I have to butt in here......Karen I respect your views totally, however, I think what you are talking about & the topic of discussion are two different things. I'll try to explain.....
When you are tested for pregnancy, a doctor can tell by certain levels of hormones in your blood or urine if there is a possibility you are carrying more than one fetus. And if that is the case, the doctor usually presribes an internal ultrasound to make sure. It is very very rare these days that a woman goes to 20 weeks without knowing she is carrying multiple babies. And with the techonolgy today as far as ultrasounds & 3-D ultrasounds go, doctors can monitor the development alot closer. If twins are going to be "siamese" docs can tell that VERY early on in the pregnancy. They can also tell if one is not developing like it should be. Thus giving the parents the chance to make an early decision if need be. My girlfriend just had triplets two months ago, her doc told her in her 3rd month that one of them might not develop properly and gave her many options to choose from. Luckily through closely monitored ultrasounds, she was able to keep it, although she was born only weighing 2lbs, and will probably face some difficulties in her developmental stages.
And as far as Rice's statement upsetting you, those are HIS opinions and we should respect that.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
I'm sorry but I think it is totally within the topic area. If you read my earlier post you will see that I said that here in the UK they do not routinely do a scan before 20 weeks in some areas (I was scanned at 16 weeks then 20 weeks). Most, but not all, GP's rely on home pregnancy kits as confirmation of pregnancy. Since this was my friends third pregnancy she was well aware of the symptoms as well. In the UK most doctors are not interested in doing anything until you are at least 10 weeks pregnant unless there is previous history to indicate early monitoring. (As soon as my friend became pregnant again she was sent for a scan to check the health of the foetus)
What I feel is that many people here are expressing views on abortion without ever having been in that sort of situation and naively, IMHO, saying that it is always wrong without considering individual circumstances. I was trying to give one circumstance that I know of and make Rice, and others, think through what they are saying.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
I'm sorry but I think it is totally within the topic area. If you read my earlier post you will see that I said that here in the UK they do not routinely do a scan before 20 weeks in some areas (I was scanned at 16 weeks then 20 weeks). Most, but not all, GP's rely on home pregnancy kits as confirmation of pregnancy. Since this was my friends third pregnancy she was well aware of the symptoms as well. In the UK most doctors are not interested in doing anything until you are at least 10 weeks pregnant unless there is previous history to indicate early monitoring. (As soon as my friend became pregnant again she was sent for a scan to check the health of the foetus)
What I feel is that many people here are expressing views on abortion without ever having been in that sort of situation and naively, IMHO, saying that it is always wrong without considering individual circumstances. I was trying to give one circumstance that I know of and make Rice, and others, think through what they are saying.
End Quote
Well first of all, the topic of discussion was "partial birth abortions" being banned here is the US, I am not familiar with the procedures used in the UK. I understand that things might be different in the UK. But what I was describing & what the article describes is what is happening here.
And you know what, I have every right to express my views on abortion because it is something very personal to me. Everyone else here has the right to express their opinions on abortion, because whether they have gone through it or not, it is THEIR opinion. And futhermore, obviously the laws of practice are different in every country because I don't know of a doctor here that would base a pregnancy on a do-it-yourself home pregnancy kit.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Remember Slick Willy? He wanted to push for Late-Term abortions >:(
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
And futhermore, obviously the laws of practice are different in every country because I don't know of a doctor here that would base a pregnancy on a do-it-yourself home pregnancy kit.
End Quote
Not to rock the boat, but with all 3 of my pregnancies, my doctor relied on a home pregnancy test. With the new tests available, they are just as reliable as the actual lab tests. I did not have (with any of them) any blood or urine tests done until 12 weeks, which is also when my dr performed my first ultrasounds.
I think the practice was pretty much just done here in the states. I do know (through a friend who has lived in 5 different countries) that medical procedures in the UK are quite different than here. For lack of a better term, they are more "basic" than here. My friend was having multiple health problems, which went undetected by several different doctors in England. It was not until she moved to Hong Kong that the doctor diagnosed them. All it took were a couple of xrays and a few blood tests, which her doctors in England would not do. I'm not saying that the medical care in England is bad, it is just the experience of my friend that they don't do as much testing as here.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
Not to rock the boat, but with all 3 of my pregnancies, my doctor relied on a home pregnancy test. With the new tests available, they are just as reliable as the actual lab tests. I did not have (with any of them) any blood or urine tests done until 12 weeks, which is also when my dr performed my first ultrasounds.
End Quote
What I was trying to say is that, in my experiences, I took home pregnancy tests and when I found out they were positive I scheduled my first pre-natal check up a week later, and I was asked to give a urine sample to be tested (like at all prenatal visits) and at that time one of things they tested for was hormone balance, which in turn shows that you are pregnant. Now, when they test you, if your hormones are extremly high, they check to see if there are multiple fetuses. I had this happen during my second pregnancy (luckily there was only one) and had an internal ultrasound scheduled the following week.
Ok, now that all of you know my gynecology history.... ;D
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Oh, I see. The clinic I go to only checks for proteins in the urine at each regular visit. With my 3rd, I did have more extensive testing, but it was because of an existing problem with my cervix. I didn't have the hormone test until the 12th week.
Subject: Re: Partial-Birth Abortions Banned
Quoting:
Oh, I see. The clinic I go to only checks for proteins in the urine at each regular visit. With my 3rd, I did have more extensive testing, but it was because of an existing problem with my cervix. I didn't have the hormone test until the 12th week.
End Quote
I probably am thinking of proteins too, not hormones :-/. I know there is a name for it, but I can't remember.
This thread is getting a little off topic, so I am gonna just stop here......