Quoting:
 Don't you think its time to lift the embargo and normalize relations?
End Quote

Wouldn't that be an admission of failure? Admitting failure is something governments find incredibly hard.

Quoting:
Castro shouldn't be alive that much longer.
End Quote

I think that is what they said about 20 years ago.



Cat

Quoting:


Wouldn't that be an admission of failure? Admitting failure is something governments find incredibly hard.
End Quote

Well, after 40 years of embargo and at least 5 assassination attempts, isn't it a failed policy?  It only hurts average Cubans and has only negative political effect.  Fidel uses it to trash "yankee imperialism".

Quoting:
 Don't you think its time to lift the embargo and normalize relations?
End Quote

I hope not. Last summer I made almost $3000 US selling Cohibas to my friends, and at the VFW.

Quoting:


I hope not. Last summer I made almost $3000 US selling Cohibas to my friends, and at the VFW.
End Quote

Good for you 8)  Got any left?  ;)

Quoting:


While I agree with you that the embargo should be lifted, I gotta ask:  dude, didn't Hemingway kill himself?  ???
End Quote

Yeah, with a hunting rifle. Too bad he did that. I guess he must have felt his best years were behind him. Plus, he was a huge alcoholic, drinking at breakfast, and I think that had something to do with the suicide. Dare I say the Cuban people and their warmth kept him alive longer than if he lived elsewhere?

Quoting:
Cuba has free medical care for all, free schools and education for all,...End Quote

Everyone gets the same good quality health care no matter how poor? Everyone gets the same good quality education no matter how poor? Everyone is treated as equals within these two great institutions of healthcare and education?

Well shoot! That sounds great! I wish the U.S. was like that.

I may sound dumb with this question and it will probably throw us off topic, but...

Why not in the U.S.?

Quoting:


I may sound dumb with this question and it will probably throw us off topic, but...

Why not in the U.S.?
End Quote

Because that is socialism, and the US isn't a socialist country.  ;)

Quoting:


Because that is socialism, and the US isn't a socialist country.  ;)
End Quote

Oh.... yeeah. That's right. I forgot.  

;)

Quoting:


Everyone gets the same good quality health care no matter how poor? Everyone gets the same good quality education no matter how poor? Everyone is treated as equals within these two great institutions of healthcare and education?

Well shoot! That sounds great! I wish the U.S. was like that.

I may sound dumb with this question and it will probably throw us off topic, but...

Why not in the U.S.?
End Quote

They all get free health care and free education in Cuba, it is a basic premise of communisim: "From each acording to their abilities, to each according to thier needs". Would be a nice world if we shared and loved each other enough to live like that. Not that it is limited to communists. Many democoracies like Germany and Canada have great social programs. In Germany they give all kids a IQ like test to see where their skills are, then the government sends them to that school. In Canada everyone gets health care. We would have these programs in the United States, but the republicans are against it. They claim it will burden the rich with more taxes.

Quoting:


They all get free health care and free education in Cuba, it is a basic premise of communisim: "From each acording to their abilities, to each according to thier needs". Would be a nice world if we shared and loved each other enough to live like that. Not that it is limited to communists. Many democoracies like Germany and Canada have great social programs. In Germany they give all kids a IQ like test to see where their skills are, then the government sends them to that school. In Canada everyone gets health care. We would have these programs in the United States, but the republicans are against it. They claim it will burden the rich with more taxes.

End Quote

Actually, I'm against it because it isn't the goverment's responsibility to take care of people. You make socialized medical care sound like a utopia -- if that is true, why do so many Canadians come to America and pay for health care when they can get it at home for no charge?

Quoting:


Actually, I'm against it because it isn't the goverment's responsibility to take care of people. You make socialized medical care sound like a utopia -- if that is true, why do so many Canadians come to America and pay for health care when they can get it at home for no charge?
End Quote

If someone is sick, it is immoral to let them suffer. If that sick person has kids, what do you think it does to them to watch society throw the kids parents away. I think that is how we make murderers and anti-social people. If we can not do something as simple as render aid to the ill, what good is our civilization worth?

Quoting:


If someone is sick, it is immoral to let them suffer. If that sick person has kids, what do you think it does to them to watch society throw the kids parents away. I think that is how we make murderers and anti-social people. If we can not do something as simple as render aid to the ill, what good is our civilization worth?
End Quote

There are plenty of hospitals that are pay as you are able.  We have a childrens hospital here that holds telethons every year to help pay for the kids whose parents can't pay.  And, correct me if I am wrong, isn't it illegal to turn a patient away because he or she can't pay?

As for the embargo.  I think it should be lifted.  It would help the Cuban people.  I don't agree with Communism and wouldn't want to see it here, but that is beside the point.

Quoting:


Actually, I'm against it because it isn't the goverment's responsibility to take care of people. You make socialized medical care sound like a utopia -- if that is true, why do so many Canadians come to America and pay for health care when they can get it at home for no charge?
End Quote

Most Canadians go Stateside for their health care needs in order to avoid the waiting lists here in Canada that can sometimes be up to 8 months long for cancer treatment.

Quoting:Many democoracies like Germany and Canada have great social programs. In Canada everyone gets health care. End Quote

Canada's health care system is in shambles right now. Especially here in Quebec, where our hospitals are dangerously overcrowded,and our doctors and nurses walk off the job because they are underpaid and overworked. In Quebec we have the highest taxes in North America, these taxes are supposed to pay for things like our great health care, yet the government still forces us to pay for private insurance.

Quoting:
I think the embargo is a stupid policy. Cuba has free medical care for all, free schools and education for all, and a more relaxed society. Earnist Hemingway left the fast paced life of America and moved to Cuba to live out his final years fishing for Marlins, smoking cigars, and drinking their fine island rums. He reported the Cuban people to be a nice and civililzed group. Personally, I think it is time the embargo police is re-evaluated to see what utility we as Americans are getting from it.
End Quote

If life in Cuba is so "relaxed", then why are some of them flocking to the US?  Risking their lives by coming over in boats that are in shambles?

And, as Dagwood pointed out, it is illegal for a public hospital to turn away a patient.  Private ones can do whatever they want.

Although I agree the embargo should be lifted, I don't think most Americans would want to live like the Cubans.

Quoting:
Yeah, that don't exist, yo.  Gotta pay a little sumpin sumpin, know what I be sayin'?
End Quote

Correct! I don't understand where the whole idea of free comes from.  There is a public education system in this country, but it is not free, it is paid for by our tax dollars. Where does everyone think the "free" health care would come from?

While it may be true that Canada, for instance, does have a tax payer supported health care system, it is also true that it is rife with problems. As I asked John Seminal, if their system is so great why do so many Canadians come to this country for health care... I mean, we are capitalists, and they have to pay for it here.

Quoting:
"Free" Cuban health care and education (throught graduate school) means that the user doesn't pay, the services are financed by the government.  In addition, all recreation and transportation is "free", everyone is gauranteed a minimum diet, and there is vertually no homelessness.  It ain't paradise, but it sure is a humane place.  Thats the reason the U.S. doesn't want people to visit there.  They might come back with lots of dangerous ideas.  End Quote

Yeah, and where will the government get this money from?  They can't just materialize it out of thin air, that's how rampant inflation happens, and that's why you can be a millionaire in Zimbabwe with less than a US dime :P  Economics isn't free from the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, dude.  Even when they say "Buy 1, get one free" at restaurants or electronics stores, it's NOT free, because the "free" part is eaten up by the retail price over cost.  Absolutely no such thing.  

Oh yeah, btw, the USA is evil evil evil.  Screw those capitalist pigs.  ::)

Quoting:

Cubans come to the U.S. for lots of reasons.  Some to join their families, some are lured by the glitter and "bright lights" of U.S. consumerism, some because they dwell on what they don't have instead of what they do have.  Many are sorry once they get to the U.S.  I've known some like that.
End Quote

I'm an immigrant (first generation) and I like it here just fine.  If they don't like it, they're always free to leave.  Thank goodness America gives them the right to kvetch about their situation, because I'm sure if they complained to Fidel they'd be shot or at the very least, laughed at.  Sorry if I'm sounding insensitive, but some people just don't know how good they have it.

Quoting:


Actually, I'm against it because it isn't the goverment's responsibility to take care of people. End Quote

I think it  depends on what you mean be "take care of".  Read the Declaration of Independance.  Governments are created to assure "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  When, as Catwoman pointed out, people have to choose between their meds and food, government is failing them.  When kids can't afford college, or finish with thousands in debts, their liberty and happiness are jeopordized.  Isn't our  public school system "socialist"?  Why is college excluded?  Shouldn't the richest country ever provide at least some of this stuff to all its people, especially since it claims to believe in equality.  After all, education IS the great equalizer.

Quoting:


Yeah, and where will the government get this money from?  They can't just materialize it out of thin air, that's how rampant inflation happens, and that's why you can be a millionaire in Zimbabwe with less than a US dime :P  Economics isn't free from the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, dude.  Even when they say "Buy 1, get one free" at restaurants or electronics stores, it's NOT free, because the "free" part is eaten up by the retail price over cost.  Absolutely no such thing. End Quote

Of course there's no such thing as free.  The question is, who does the work that produces value, and who gets to enjoy the fruits of that labor.  Why should 90% of the world's population struggle just to stay alive while 10% enjoys 90% of the world's wealth.  Why  should millions go to bed hungry (and hundreds of thousands in the U.S.) while a few throw food away?  Unlike what the Enron crowd believed, greed isn't good.  

Quoting:


If life in Cuba is so "relaxed", then why are some of them flocking to the US?  Risking their lives by coming over in boats that are in shambles?
End Quote

Cuba is a very poor country. The embargo has helped some in driving the economy further down. I would have loved to see this little experiment in Latin American Socialism. It failed miserably in Nicaragua as it did in Chile (although Salvador Allende was elected into office intead of some bloody coup). Both economies suffered through their idealism. Cuba seemed like it would be different. I would have pared it with Spain or even Scandinavia!

So, yes, they do come in rafts just like Haitians and Dominicans. They come into the US just like Mexicans, Central Americans, Colombians, and other Latin Americans. Cubans haven't the slightest clue what a Capitalist economy will do to their society and govt. (just look at Mexico and Latin America, Russia, and Eastern Europe). If this many Cubans are piling in now, think of the floods that'll come when they are "freed" from Communism. They'll become the next group of illegal immigrants. That'll be the only change. It'll revert back to the Batista years...

Quoting:I don't think most Americans would want to live like the Cubans.
End Quote

You'd be amazed at how warm and friendly the people who live there are. It makes me wonder what the rates for depression and obesity are over there and how the anti-depressant companies would fare in a society free of this commercial demon. Materialistically, I can see how many of us would not like to live there. There aren't SUVs everywhere, no flatscreen TVs, no pentiums, no fancy clothes, no guns, no fancy restaurants, no houses with 5 bathrooms (!!), and whatever other modern conveniences we've become used to/trapped in. They do exist in Cuba, but it's mainly for tourists and Fidel (he is a billionaire) :P

I don't know. I thought it would have worked in Cuba. I think it's too late now. I do agree the embargo should be lifted though.

Quoting:
Yeah, and where will the government get this money from?  They can't just materialize it out of thin air, that's how rampant inflation happens, and that's why you can be a millionaire in Zimbabwe with less than a US dime :P  Economics isn't free from the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, dude.
End Quote

Welcome to Economics 101  ;D ;D ;D
I am sure you have seen the Guns or Butter Curve diagram. Economics is not about printing money or the such, it is about deciding what to produce and how to allocate it. In a capitalist system, we allow companies to make whatever they want, figuring that consumers in the aggregate will pick what is to be produced by buying the product. Here is the fundamental flaw with a pure capitalists system. The end consumer only wants what they need NOW or the short term future. When was the last time you went to a store to purchase "road and infostructure improvement" or "health care security"? That is the role of government, to produce things a society and civilization needs but would not buy on its own. Money is unimportant, it is just how we vote on what we want produced. When it comes to health care, the real reason we do not have it is because the millionaire republicans know they will be going to the best doctors, so why have government allocate those resources to the rest of us when they already have it, the 90% which are not millionaires. Screw the avarage hard working american. The republicans tell lies like we will have less choice in what doctor to go to. I do not want to start a rant...  

Quoting:
I'm an immigrant (first generation) and I like it here just fine.  If they don't like it, they're always free to leave.  
End Quote

That is such bullcrap. If you do not like it, then change it. Start a grass roots campaign to elect a congressman in your district. Write an editorial in the local paper. And most importantly, vote. A vote counts in 49 states (not valid in Florida).

Quoting:
There are plenty of hospitals that are pay as you are able.  We have a childrens hospital here that holds telethons every year to help pay for the kids whose parents can't pay.  And, correct me if I am wrong, isn't it illegal to turn a patient away because he or she can't pay?
End Quote

The effective law in my state is they can not turn away a paitent who is in unstable condition. Once the hospital stabalizes the person, they are free to throw them out. I dunno about you, but if I have phnemonia or some illness, I would preffer to stay in the hospital and recieve medicine and treatment. The other problem is with medicine. Even if a hospital tells you what is worng and hands you a prescription, what do you do if you do not have the cash to buy the medicine? You might as well not have gone to the hospital.

Quoting:


I think it  depends on what you mean be "take care of".  Read the Declaration of Independance.  Governments are created to assure "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness".  When, as Catwoman pointed out, people have to choose between their meds and food, government is failing them.  When kids can't afford college, or finish with thousands in debts, their liberty and happiness are jeopordized.  Isn't our  public school system "socialist"?  Why is college excluded?  Shouldn't the richest country ever provide at least some of this stuff to all its people, especially since it claims to believe in equality.  After all, education IS the great equalizer.
End Quote

The role of the government is to assure that the rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are not taken away unjustly.  I agree that the Social Security system has failed miserably, but I don't think it's totally the government's fault.  It is the people who abuse this system who should take some of the blame as well.  The welfare system was set up to help those who cannot help themselves, but there are so many who abuse it.  

As far as "free" education, who is to pay for it ultimately?  Where is the government going to get the money?  From the taxpayers, of course.  The same goes for the "free" healthcare.  

Sorry, it may sound callous and cold, but I'm tired of paying for everyone else.  My hubby works his tail off to provide our family with a comfortable lifestyle.  I have no problem with helping people who are honestly trying to better their situations or provide for their families, I'm just sick of paying for those who expect a handout.  

Quoting:


 The welfare system was set up to help those who cannot help themselves, but there are so many who abuse it.  

Sorry, it may sound callous and cold, but I'm tired of paying for everyone else.  My hubby works his tail off to provide our family with a comfortable lifestyle.  I have no problem with helping people who are honestly trying to better their situations or provide for their families, I'm just sick of paying for those who expect a handout.  
End Quote

Could not have said it better myself. I don't know how welfare works in the States, but up here the rules are pretty lax.

A couple of years ago there was an uproar because the government wanted welfare recipients to pick up their check in person at the welfare office. They wanted them to show the agents that they were actually trying to get off welfare. Of course i'm well aware that there are some people who are not able to do this for whatever reason.

Quoting:


Could not have said it better myself. I don't know how welfare works in the States, but up here the rules are pretty lax.

A couple of years ago there was an uproar because the government wanted welfare recipients to pick up their check in person at the welfare office. They wanted them to show the agents that they were actually trying to get off welfare. Of course i'm well aware that there are some people who are not able to do this for whatever reason.

End Quote

Well, they're working on it here in the states.  Some states have instituted a "welfare for work" program which requires people to work and make some of their own money, but still gives them assistance.  I know in some areas, (NYC for example) it's not working too well because the cost of living is outrageous, but I think it is going well in Michigan.  Could be wrong though.

Quoting:

Read the Declaration of Independance.  Governments are created to assure "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". End Quote

As 80s_cheerleader said, I believe the government's job is to keep these things from being taken away unjustly. Everyone is entitled to persue life, liberty and happiness, but they are not guaranteed.

Quoting:When, as Catwoman pointed out, people have to choose between their meds and food, government is failing them.End Quote

No, government isn't failing them. It is not the duty of the government to feed or provide medicine for the citizenry. But why wait for the government to do it? If these are your convictions, then go out and find someone who can't afford medicine and food and buy one or the other for them. You can lead by example.

Quoting:When kids can't afford college, or finish with thousands in debts, their liberty and happiness are jeopordized.  End Quote

We have many rights in this country, but going to college isn't one of them. According to this philosophy, a person's liberty and happiness could be at stake because they drive an old car that breaks down all the time. Should the government buy them a new car too?

Quoting:Isn't our  public school system "socialist"?  Why is college excluded?  Shouldn't the richest country ever provide at least some of this stuff to all its people, especially since it claims to believe in equality.  After all, education IS the great equalizer.
End Quote

I am no fan of big social programs, but I do think public education, while by no means perfect, is a worthwhile expenditure of our tax dollars. It gives everyone the same initial opportunity to be successful, provides everyone with the same building blocks. What is done with those building blocks is up to the individual. College is up to the individual to decide on as well... if you want to go, you either work hard enough to earn a scholarship or you pay.

Quoting:
If these are your convictions, then go out and find someone who can't afford medicine and food and buy one or the other for them. You can lead by example.
End Quote

Actually, I do that. I feel a lot of people. This past holiday, I made sure that 108 families had a Christmas dinner. I must admit that I did not do this alone. There are many people who help me (not to mention the people who donated funds so we can do this). But I was the one who ordered all the food. The organization that I work with also provides breakfast and lunch to children in the summer who can no longer get the free breakfast and lunch they get in school. At the moment, we are working on a food distribution. We had 2 of them last year and manage to feed 300 families at each one! I believe that NO ONE-young, old, or anywhere in between should have go hungry. Especially not in what is supposed to be the richest nation in the world.




Cat

Quoting:

Actually, I do that. I feel a lot of people. This past holiday, I made sure that 108 families had a Christmas dinner. I must admit that I did not do this alone. There are many people who help me (not to mention the people who donated funds so we can do this). But I was the one who ordered all the food. The organization that I work with also provides breakfast and lunch to children in the summer who can no longer get the free breakfast and lunch they get in school. At the moment, we are working on a food distribution. We had 2 of them last year and manage to feed 300 families at each one! I believe that NO ONE-young, old, or anywhere in between should have go hungry. Especially not in what is supposed to be the richest nation in the world.
End Quote

Very commendable! The grass roots approach is always the way to go, IMO, and your efforts proove that it works... and without all the beaurocratic red tape that a government program would include!

And, yes, we are the richest nation in the world... but it is because of the people who live and work here, not because of the government.

Quoting:
Most Canadians go Stateside for their health care needs in order to avoid the waiting lists here in Canada that can sometimes be up to 8 months long for cancer treatment.
Canada's health care system is in shambles right now. Especially here in Quebec, where our hospitals are dangerously overcrowded,and our doctors and nurses walk off the job because they are underpaid and overworked. In Quebec we have the highest taxes in North America, these taxes are supposed to pay for things like our great health care, yet the government still forces us to pay for private insurance.
End Quote

Thanks for posting that Resinchaser.

For those of you that think we (USA) should go to the "free" healthcare system, did you read Resinchaser's post(I pasted it above in case you missed it)?  Thats what "free" healthcare will get you.  

Theres a reason we haven't adopted "free" healthcare, its not as great as it sounds.  Besides, like Resinchaser pointed out, you would be getting screwed twice, both by outrageous taxes and private insurance premiums.  So what's the benefit?  

By the way: for those that want "free" healthcare, I wonder how you would react to having your taxes literally skyrocket to support this "free" system.  Its not free at all.  

Quoting:



Very commendable! The grass roots approach is always the way to go, IMO, and your efforts proove that it works... and without all the beaurocratic red tape that a government program would include!

And, yes, we are the richest nation in the world... but it is because of the people who live and work here, not because of the government.
End Quote

It is the government who allow the fat cats to get fatter and more and more people are coming to us for help. I live in a small town with the population of a little over 2,000. It is really pitiful that over 100 FAMILIES (NOT individuals) have to find other means to feed their families. In the last year alone there has been more people coming for help. I don't know how many times I have heard, "I have been laid off." Why is that? Because the government protect their buddies in big business like Enron, Worldcom, etc. Those CEOs are walking away with mega-bucks because they stole the savings from their employees-the poor Joe Smoes who are just trying to feed their families. My sister was just laid off from Worldcom and they are really messing with the "beuracratic red tape" so she can't even get her unemployment for almost 4-5 months. That is what government allows. So what are people to do when they need to feed their families? They come to us because it seems that the government is only interested in helping their rich buddies and not the rest of us.



Cat

Quoting:
Under communism, what is the incentive to improve my abilities and to honestly represent my needs?
End Quote

Exactly!

If I know that I have to depend on the govt to provide me with basicly every aspect of my life, where would my motivation be?  Cubans may be nice people, and I'm sure they are, but theres no way in hell I would want to replace our way of life with their's.

Quoting:


they CAN'T do that in Cuba.(vote)End Quote

Actually, theyt vote in Cuba every 2 years for local, municipal, regional, and national congresses.  You just doin't hear about it in the States because it would contradict the "party line".

Quoting:


 Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. End Quote

Yeah, Ask Skiffing and company what they have done for their country.  If you ask corporate execs about "their country" they will tell you that their country is where they can make the most money - read  most exploit their workers.  They have no loyalty to the U.S. or any other country.  And Kennedy was just like the rest of them.  This sentiment sounds nice, but its meant for mass consumption, not for the fat cats.  

Quoting:
Under communism, what is the incentive to improve my abilities and to honestly represent my needs?
End Quote

Well, maybe YOU would feel no incentive to, as the army recruiting poster says, "be all that you can be" but for some of us, who love  our work, AND DO IT MORE FOR IT'S OWN REWARDS THAN FOR THE $$, contributing to society is also a reward.  Lots of people take jobs because they like what they do, and because it makes a contribution, and not for the $$.

Quoting:


Actually, theyt vote in Cuba every 2 years for local, municipal, regional, and national congresses.  You just doin't hear about it in the States because it would contradict the "party line".
End Quote

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/jan03/20e2.htm

Quoting:

So what are people to do when they need to feed their families? They come to us because it seems that the government is only interested in helping their rich buddies and not the rest of us.

End Quote

You know what the most wonderful thing is about this country? We have a say in who our leaders are. If you don't agree with what the current leadership does then you can vote them out as long as you can get enough people to vote with you. This is not a perfect government, to be sure, but I strongly suspect it's a much better system than many other countries live under. There are plenty of people trying to get into this country, but I don't hear much about people trying to get out.

Quoting:


Well, maybe YOU would feel no incentive to, as the army recruiting poster says, "be all that you can be" but for some of us, who love  our work, AND DO IT MORE FOR IT'S OWN REWARDS THAN FOR THE $$, contributing to society is also a reward.  Lots of people take jobs because they like what they do, and because it makes a contribution, and not for the $$.
End Quote

With all due respect, your answer encapsulates why communism has appealed to so many in theory and has failed so miserably in practice.

Quoting:




It is the government who allow the fat cats to get fatter and more and more people are coming to us for help.End Quote

But that's just the point. You are suppose to be the government, and so should be able to determine what, how, and to what extent we will take care of our mutual needs socially instead of individually.  The problem is that the "fat cats" Cat refers to own the government and that get to decide.  What U.S. citizens need to do is TAKE BACK their government from the Bas**ds that are now controlling it for their own interests.  It always amazes me that the people of the U.S. almost always vote against their own interests, and most people (several here) can't  seem to get that.

Quoting:



http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/jan03/20e2.htm
End Quote

This is, seemingly, an accurate report, and in our contentuous and letiguous society sounds suspect.  To me too to an extent.  But having studied Cuba for many years and knowing something about their political process, it isn't that wierd.  The latest amendments to their Constitution went through two years of debate, revision, debate and more revision, before they were  submitted to a formal "vote".  The idea behind their politics, which the U.S. would find almost imposible to understand, is concensus, not just majority rule.  Sort of like the old fashioned New England town meetings, where, again, concensus was the goal, not "I won, you lost, na nana na".  Hard for the U.S. to understand, but not beyond comprehension.

Quoting:

I'd rebut, but Lester already did that.  Thanks Lester :)
End Quote

Hey, us right wing whackos gotta stick together, right?  ;)

Quoting:
We've deviated from the original topic again :) :D ;DEnd Quote

Yeah, we have, but that's ok and I expected it when I made the initial post.  What we're doing is rethinking government and society.  If Linclon was right in his Gettysb' Address, and "gov't of, for, and by the people" survives, than we need to discuss what WE want gov't to do, and not leave it to the corporate big-wigs and political leaders to figure out. Our conservative friend, who I respect, believe not much, but if we are the government its up to us to debate and decide, not up to a few "hot shots" in corporate board rooms.
I agree with the rest of your post too.  I would choose Cuba over every other country as a place to live if I had to leave the U.S. - which if Ashcroft had is way, I might.  In addition to all I have already mentioned about it, nice climate and good fishing.  Many years ago I saw a Jaque (sp - French is not my forte) Cousteau film on Cuban marine ecology which was very impressive - lots of efforts to preserve the marine environment.  And I could do with a bit less materialism.

Quoting:
We are not a developing country seeking to provide basic necessities for the citizenry. The people here can already do that by themselves. Basic necessities have already been secured here. Socialism can only take the people so far. There's a limit. Whereas under Capitalism, there is room to go up further. Socialism gets the job done and Capitalism is the finishing touch, in other words.

I don't know where people get the idea that greed is inherently wrong. Greed/selfishness/egoism is a major factor for our motivations of why we do a lot of things. We may practice self-denial in public, but human nature doesn't operate like that. Territoriality/selfishness is something most animals are born with. It is part of their intrinsic nature. In most animal societies there are pecking orders according to the most powerful down to the weakest link. If, suddenly, the order were to be leveled in terms of equality instead of ability, chaos would ensue. I don't think it would be much different in human terms.

Okay, so I'm an old-school Social Darwinist/Naturalist, so sue me 8) You wouldn't want to read what I really think. Last time, it was dragged into a couple of pages with two other members.

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That's true, the U.S. doesn't provide for basic needs, and that's why so many people don't have them.  Food shelves are under increasing pressure, homelessness is increasing, the distribution of wealth is  becoming more skewed than ever.  In the 70's, the average CEO earned 39 times what the average worker earned.  Today the differential is more than $1000 to 1.  Today, the richest 1% owns more wealth that the bottom 95% and the richest 1300 families earn more than the bottom 20 MILLION.  Between '79 and '97 the income of the top 1% rose 157% compared to only 10% for families near the middle of the income distribution, all accordeing to Congressional Budget Office studies.  This would be unthinkable in Cuba.

I don't buy the "human nature" argument either.  Human nature is very pliable, not "hard wired" like animals.  People respond to the influences around them, like advertising etc. and to what society at large points to.  You seem to be saying that we, humans, are not in control.  I think Cuba proves that we  can be if we want to.

I hope you don't mean that Social Darwinist bit.  That is a discredited, racist buntch of psudo-science.  Check out a book called "The Mismeasure of Man" by Steven J. Gould.

Quoting:


That's true, the U.S. doesn't provide for basic needs, and that's why so many people don't have them.  Food shelves are under increasing pressure, homelessness is increasing, the distribution of wealth is  becoming more skewed than ever. End Quote

I don't see it as much of a problem. It's the law of the jungle. I wouldn't trust the rich more than I would the poor, so that whole distribution of wealth and power deal doesn't cut it for me (What? Me, a Federalist? Hahaha). Yeah, once an animal has had a taste of blood, can it really be trusted? Once the citizens of the US have had a taste of la dolce vita, can they really be expected to be altruistic and give it up for the good of everyone? Money does change everything. It's a hard fact of life I had to come to terms with. It dispelled and shattered any illusions I had of a Utopia where brothers and sisters would be happy in an unmaterialistic world. You know, like Anthem...

Quoting:In the 70's, the average CEO earned 39 times what the average worker earned.  Today the differential is more than $1000 to 1.  Today, the richest 1% owns more wealth that the bottom 95% and the richest 1300 families earn more than the bottom 20 MILLION.End Quote

Same situation in China and Cuba. You got the leaders and the military enjoying the riches and untold wealth while you have everybody else living/subsisting on the basics. There is no middle class in those countries. You have the rich oligarchy and then you have the rest in poverty.

Um, I'll take upper-middle class, if material possessions ruled my life, and I wouldn't doubt this would also be an easy choice for the Gringos.

I still like Cuba though...

Quoting:Between '79 and '97 the income of the top 1% rose 157% compared to only 10% for families near the middle of the income distribution, all accordeing to Congressional Budget Office studies.  This would be unthinkable in Cuba.End Quote

Last time I checked, the CEO of Cuba (my hero, Fidel) was listed as one of the wealthiest people in the world (by Forbes or Fortune, I think) at a whopping $2 billion! It's quite feasible in Cuba.

Quoting:I don't buy the "human nature" argument either.End Quote

You don't have to. I just write and think from the information I acquire from various science, physics, and chemistry books and then apply this knowledge to the real world. Whether it is as detailed as in biochemistry or as general as an anthropology course, I find the subjects fascinating in how true-to-life they are. This is real life for me.

Quoting: Human nature is very pliable, not "hard wired" like animals.  People respond to the influences around them, like advertising etc. and to what society at large points to.End Quote

Animals can do that too. Learned behaviour is nothing new to animals. You have chimpanzees (who are, btw, 99% genetically similar to humans) learning how to speak their minds through sign language...

I was never a admirer of pop-science like psychology - or any of the social sciences, so I don't know much about these studies.

Quoting:You seem to be saying that we, humans, are not in control.  I think Cuba proves that we  can be if we want to.End Quote

Up to a point, we are not in control. That's just what I believe. Cuba has proven that for me as well. The people are good-natured, but in Cuba you will still find examples of black markets where you can get Nike and ADIDAS and other luxury goods, and the dollar goes a long way there. Money changes everything.

Do I think Cubans are in control? No more than a worker ant or a worker bee. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily since "bad," to me, is a relative word.

Quoting:I hope you don't mean that Social Darwinist bit.  That is a discredited, racist buntch of pseudo-science.  Check out a book called "The Mismeasure of Man" by Steven J. Gould.
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I meant it, but I'll give Mr. Gould's book a look and see what I can gather that could alter/add to my point of view (I am still an impressionable young 'un, after all). I'm a slow reader, so I don't know how much I'll be able to understand or how far I will be able to get, but I'll try...

Quoting:
I meant it, but I'll give Mr. Gould's book a look and see what I can gather that could alter/add to my point of view (I am still an impressionable young 'un, after all). I'm a slow reader, so I don't know how much I'll be able to understand or how far I will be able to get, but I'll try...
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Here's a link to the Amazon review page for the book...one man's opinion, remember that ;)  But at least he backs it up well.

If you don't have time, the dudes who wrote the reviews do a pretty darn good job summarizing the thing...

The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393314251/qid=1047589974/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2434339-6676932?v=glance&s=books

Quoting:
Here's a little something I read that I found greatly amusing...


The Capitalist Manifesto


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Amusing to be sure, except that  these guys are  serious.  And soon we would be back to starvation wages, mass illiteracy, 19th Century wage slavery, and a growing revolutionary move... wait a minute, maybe I'm for this ;)

But no.  There would be too much suffering.  What conservatives just don't seem to understand is that social programs that ameliorate the lives of every day folks are all that are saving THIER skins, saving the system.  That's the lesson of the great depression and the New Deal.  Conservatives have always had trouble with "the vision thing" though.

Quoting:

...social programs that ameliorate the lives of every day folks are all that are saving THIER skins, saving the system.  That's the lesson of the great depression and the New Deal.  End Quote

I agree.  The abolition of child labor, reasonably safe working conditions, you name it... the push for a better world has always come from below, from the despised "union agitator," for what of a better demonic image.  Sometime's you are right, Don Carlos...