Quoting:
  My question to our posters is, "is this art to you?"  
End Quote

Well, I'm not an art scholar nor ever claimed to be, but I see this as just a publicity stunt.  Sort of like that controversial art exhibit in New York last year involving biblical paintings involving feces.  

Would I buy it? No.  Would I pay to see it?  No.  

Its funny how someone can urinate in a jar, drop a crucifix in it, and suddenly they're and "artist". ::)

...whatever floats yer boat(even if it is in a jar of urine) ;D

Quoting:

I think this whole thread should be deleted.
End Quote

  If you didn't know what the icon is submerged in, would you still deem it blasphemous?  Or beautiful?

Quoting:


  If you didn't know what the icon is submerged in, would you still deem it blasphemous?  Or beautiful?
End Quote

I know you were talking to X, but as for me I admit I think it looks cool the way it is.  The whole urine thing is a little gross and out there, in my opinion.  

I guess it begs the question:  if I piss in a jar, drop something in it and take a picture of it, would a museum put it on display?  

I guess I just don't get some things deemed as "art" ???

Quoting:


  If you didn't know what the icon is submerged in, would you still deem it blasphemous?  Or beautiful?
End Quote

If I didn't know what the icon was submerged in or the title of the piece, of course I would not think it blasphemous. But I DO know its background. No doubt my posts will get deleted because some take offense; well, I take offense at that so-called "art". Some will say the "artist" has the right of self-expression; well, so do I.

Quoting:
Is THAT the excuse Serrano used?
End Quote

  Short of clairvoyance, I haven't the foggiest.  I never researched this art or the motivations behind it.  I saw it online, liked-it, and then found out about the urine.  I'm not offended by it as others in this forum more-or-less know my mind concerning religious faith.
  The vomit-as-art thread prompted me to present Piss Christ to you and wait to read every response.

Quoting:
Okey dokey, I consider myself, Christian, but after reading some of the reactions to the subject of Christ here, I think maybe I am marching to the beat of a different savior.....this is not Christ himself sitting in urine, X. This is just an object. I don't consider it art, I certainly would pay nothing for it, and the only emotion it evokes is a slight gag factor at the idea of someone working with urine. I am not Iconic, I believe Christ is within, not in some object.  ::) If one only finds Grace in objects, maybe one ought to look into their faith.....could be something is missing.
End Quote

I agree. Notice that I said, "an IMAGE of Jesus".

Quoting:
You think piss art is controversial?  Take a look at this.
http://www.chico.mweb.co.za/art/2001/2001oct/011023-black.jpg

End Quote

Well, I am no theologian or historian, but it CAN be argued that Jesus was black, being from that area and all.  The Autobiography of Malcolm X has a mention of this theory as well (but of course Malcolm X was a tad militant) ;)

Quoting:
You think piss art is controversial?  Take a look at this.

End Quote

Yet another imitator. You'd think people would learn by now. If this board posted IPs, you'd see that mine is most likely different from that of the fake X. Well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

Quoting:
You think piss art is controversial?  Take a look at this.
http://www.chico.mweb.co.za/art/2001/2001oct/011023-black.jpg

End Quote

And why should this be offensive, because the Jesus is black?  Does anyone really know what race He was?  Does it matter?  God doesn't care about race, why should we.  

As for the original pic, I don't take offense, I just say yuck.

Quoting:

Yet another imitator. You'd think people would learn by now. If this board posted IPs, you'd see that mine is most likely different from that of the fake X. Well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...
End Quote

...yet both of the X's email addresses are entered as x@x.com.  How very odd. ::)

you know, whether you are the real X or not, this confusion could all be avoided by simply registering with the site.

Quoting:



...yet both of the X's email addresses are entered as x@x.com.  How very odd. ::)

you know, whether you are the real X or not, this confusion could all be avoided by simply registering with the site.
End Quote

Actually the guest "sign-ins" allow you to post whatever e-mail address you want, so you can post just about anything...including the same e-mail as someone else.  

Of course, it COULD be avoided if X would show some balls and register ::)

Quoting:
Actually the guest "sign-ins" allow you to post whatever e-mail address you want, so you can post just about anything...including the same e-mail as someone else.End Quote

Exactly.  My point was:  if there are actually 2 X's,  what are the chances of them both choosing the same email address?  

Quoting:Of course, it COULD be avoided if X would show some balls and register ::)
End Quote

there are a few posters on these boards who are afraid to register, because then they would actually have to assume some responsibility for their posts.  If you aren't willing to stand by your comments by registering, don't bother posting at all, in my opinion.

Quoting:

there are a few posters on these boards who are afraid to register, because then they would actually have to assume some responsibility for their posts.  If you aren't willing to stand by your comments by registering, don't bother posting at all, in my opinion.
End Quote

AMEN!!

Quoting:


Exactly.  My point was:  if there are actually 2 X's,  what are the chances of them both choosing the same email address?  
End Quote

:)  If you move the mouse over the link that says "e-mail" you can see the guest's "preferred account".  That's probably what Fake X and Real X and whoever X did.  But your point is well taken.  I'm sure Fake X is just trying to ruffle Real X's feathers ;)

Who wants tickets to see a good X fight?  :D

Quoting:
Who wants tickets to see a good X fight?  :D
End Quote

well since I'm fairly certian they are one in the same, I think I think I'll pass on the tickets. ;)

X isn't fooling anyone but himself.

Quoting:
I guess the only thing to do is change nicknames every so often, or use a different nick every time I post.
End Quote

Also, I should stop praising The Spice Girls unless I want to get deservedly flamed for the tasteless sod that I am.

Quoting:
I guess the only thing to do is change nicknames every so often, or use a different nick every time I post.
End Quote

...or you could be a man and just register. ;)

Quoting:
On topic:

I do not think of the discussed image as art.

I don't think I can throw a Yin-Yang symbol (or a Budha, or a Star of David) in a glass of apple juice and call it art.

It's the controvesry of the subject matter that is selling that image, not the true concept of art.

My opinion.
End Quote

You're hitting nail on head, Hair! ;)

Quoting:

You're hitting nail on head, Hair! ;)
End Quote

;D

Quoting:
I don't think I can throw a Yin-Yang symbol (or a Budha, or a Star of David) in a glass of apple juice and call it art.
End Quote

lol...Piss-Taoist? (or apple-tao)

incidentally, it's Yin-Yang (only one G)

Quoting:

lol...Piss-Taoist? (or apple-tao)

incidentally, it's Yin-Yang (only one G)
End Quote

Thanks for the correction. I really hate typos.  :P

And it would be "Apple Tao"  ;D

Quoting:
On topic:

I do not think of the discussed image as art.

I don't think I can throw a Yin-Yang symbol (or a Budha, or a Star of David) in a glass of apple juice and call it art.

It's the controvesry of the subject matter that is selling that image, not the true concept of art.

My opinion.
End Quote

Agreed.

Quoting:


And it would be "Apple Tao"  ;D
End Quote

I hate my typos too.

The word "Tao" can also be lower-case ("apple-tao" is also correct). The hyphen isn't that big of a deal ;D "Buddha" has two "d"s, btw (I looked it up to see if it could also be spelled with one, but it isn't). Annoying? :) :D ;D

On topic:

I disagree with Hairspray.

The photograph of the display looks quite good. I can see myself buying a postcard of something that looks like that. Maybe the display leaves a lot to be desired since it's a Ready Made and most people aren't into these sort of visuals. This is a style (or for some of you members, "concept") begun by Marcel Duchamp and he definitely was an artist who could think outside of the box (without him, there would be a big gap in 20th century modern art). The French Situationists would consider the controversy itself as "art": It is an useless object, deliverately made, that is causing a reaction from people; much better than a live display since it doesn't even require anyone doing anything except looking at something.

To not call this display "art" would be analogous to stating, "Hair bands do not make music." If it was me, I would say, "I don't like this type of display," but to start disqualifying things left and right... I don't know...

Quoting:


To not call this display "art" would be analogous to stating, "Hair bands do not make music." If it was me, I would say, "I don't like this type of display," but to start disqualifying things left and right... I don't know...
End Quote

Everyone defines art differently according to their own likes and experiences. To me, art is a discipline, something created from that discipline, in a way it is almost a science. So, to me, tossing something into a vat of er...apple juice....is not art. It took no knowledge, no education and certainly very little practice, although it seems it would take a lot of drinking ;). This picture is a statement. Not art. IMHO.  ;D

Quoting:


Everyone defines art differently according to their own likes and experiences. To me, art is a discipline, something created from that discipline, in a way it is almost a science. So, to me, tossing something into a vat of er...apple juice....is not art. It took no knowledge, no education and certainly very little practice, although it seems it would take a lot of drinking ;). This picture is a statement. Not art. IMHO.  ;D
End Quote

Liking and disliking, subjective thinking, is not synonymous to defining art. Deliberate actions which lead to art exist. That is a way to objectively view something. Statements can be considered part of art: Whether it is through poetry, music, architecture; statements of the artist's visions are everywhere. What formal training and degree did Van Gogh have? In his time, his art went ignored by the public (he sold only one painting, right?). I wonder if people back then thought of his works as statements that required no education and knowledge because they disliked them. Not that I would ever compare this mediocre artist with Van Gogh though. I just needed a quick example.

For me, art requires subjective thinking. Science tries to be as objective as possible. Art and science are on opposing ends of thinking, so they cannot be almost like each other (i.e. in science 2+2=4, but in art 2+2=whatever you feel like).

Quoting:
I hate my typos too.

The word "Tao" can also be lower-case ("apple-tao" is also correct). The hyphen isn't that big of a dealEnd Quote

LOL!

No, I meant "Apple Tao" as opposed to "Piss-Taoist".  :P ;)

You thought I was trying to correct Taoist's grammar.  ::)  

As you can now see, I was not.

Quoting:
The photograph of the display looks quite good. I can see myself buying a postcard of something that looks like that.
End Quote

Then... you're definition of art is something you would buy a postcard of?   :D

Edited to add: I hope we're off the grammar thing, cause I think I just split an infinitive.

Quoting:


Then... you're definition of art is something you would buy a postcard of?   :D

Edited to add: I hope we're off the grammar thing, cause I think I just split an infinitive.
End Quote

Well, it should be 'your' instead of "you're" and you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition ;D  just kiddin! ;D

Quoting:


Then... your definition of art is something you would buy as a postcard?   :D


End Quote

I subjectively assess art and if I deem it worth my time and money, I will try to have a copy of it for future reference. Whether I like something, buy it, view it, judge it, et cetera, has no bearing on the definition of the artifact: It already was art before I even had a chance to view it. Example: African tribal art. I dislike it. I find it ugly, boring, and some of it seems to me like it requires little skill. I haven't seen a lot of it. That which I've seen and judged subjectively will remain art no matter how much I dislike it. That which I've not seen is still African tribal art.

Just because something is easy to make doesn't mean it suddenly disqualifies as art. Art, at its most basic, doesn't require formal training or any knowledge of the subject, just the need to express a thought, an idea, to others through varying means.

art    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ärt)
n.
Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.

This is fairly accurate of what I mean to write, but am unable to express in so few words. Art is not "science" or science-like. Skill is one thing. Science is another. Even the definition posted above claims it to be "non-scientific."

Art is art. I can paint whatever I feel like painting and it becomes art as soon as I term it such. It's like Green Lantern. I can will something to be and it is as I say. This fits the general definition of what art is. The level of difficulty has nothing to do in defining something as art and if difficulty is what requires something to be art, how are these levels of difficulty to be determined? Who is an artist and who isn't? Where would multi-faceted artists fit in? Would Marcel Duchamp oscillate from artist to non-artist depending on his thought process and how hard it was to make each particular piece? His famous "Urinal" display is nothing even though it revolutionized 20th century art from its preconceptions?

I guess the bulk of the art I like suddenly becomes nil in terms of this new definition of "art." I consider a lot of it fairly easy to do, provided I have the rudimentary training for it.

Quoting:
The most offensive thing about Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" is that it was funded by the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) - or by us, the taxpayers.  If an individual considers this art and wants to pay to see it or to own it, then he or she should be free to do so; but taxpayers should not be coerced into funding such works.
End Quote

Aw, come on. Taxpayers are coerced to fund for worse things that happen to be infinitely more expensive than an urine jar with a crucifix inside :) :D ;D

Quoting:
My question is how do we really know it is in urine?  I was thinking, after reading Hairspray's post, that urine and apple juice look quite a bit alike.  Would it be so controversial if it was apple juice or even beer?
End Quote

Anyone with bright-red urine should see a doctor immediately!

Quoting:

Anyone with bright-red urine should see a doctor immediately!
End Quote

LOL!  I was thinking the same thing!  Looks like SOMEONE had a kidney infection or a ruptured bladder of some sorts.

Quoting:


LOL!  I was thinking the same thing!  Looks like SOMEONE had a kidney infection or a ruptured bladder of some sorts.
End Quote

That's an old piss jar. Try keeping urine in a jar for over ten years and see how it looks. Some chemicals mixed with the urea might have decomposed since then...

Quoting:


Try keeping urine in a jar for over ten years and see how it looks.
End Quote

Nevermind how it looks... imagine the smell!!

Quoting:

That's an old piss jar.End Quote

How do you know? I'm curious.

My thought after reading your post was, "Why would he leave a jar of urine to sit for 10 years?".

Then, I did a bit of research and realized just how twisted this individual really is, IMO:

Although his work regularly features bodily fluids, such as menstrual blood and semen, when Andres Serrano photographs a crucifix submerged in a glass of urine in 1989 and titles it Piss Christ, he sets off a storm of controversy.

Doesn't this guy ever worry about Pathogens?

Included, but not limited to:
 
Hepatitis B  
   
Hepatitis C
   
HIV
   
Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers:

Ebola, Marburg, Lassa, Crimean-Congo...

Quoting:


How do you know? I'm curious.

My thought after reading your post was, "Why would he leave a jar of urine to sit for 10 years?".

Then, I did a bit of research and realized just how twisted this individual really is, IMO:

Although his work regularly features bodily fluids, such as menstrual blood and semen, when Andres Serrano photographs a crucifix submerged in a glass of urine in 1989 and titles it Piss Christ, he sets off a storm of controversy.

Doesn't this guy ever worry about Pathogens?

Included, but not limited to:
 
Hepatitis B  
   
Hepatitis C
   
HIV
   
Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers:

Ebola, Marburg, Lassa, Crimean-Congo...
End Quote

That is a truly disturbing thought. What is more disgusting is the idea that someone would buy these waste products, I mean, works of art.

Quoting:


How do you know? I'm curious.

My thought after reading your post was, "Why would he leave a jar of urine to sit for 10 years?".

End Quote

great point.  For all we know it could be a jar of water with a couple drops of yellow/orange food coloring.  And boom, you got a jar of "piss".

Its kinda funny, in my dining room, I have an old bar cabinet with old empty liguor bottles filled with water and yellow food coloring to make them look new.  Now that I think about it, it looks like a cabinet full of urine-filled bottles. :D

Quoting:


How do you know? I'm curious.

My thought after reading your post was, "Why would he leave a jar of urine to sit for 10 years?".

Then, I did a bit of research and realized just how twisted this individual really is, IMO:

Although his work regularly features bodily fluids, such as menstrual blood and semen, when Andres Serrano photographs a crucifix submerged in a glass of urine in 1989 and titles it Piss Christ, he sets off a storm of controversy.

Doesn't this guy ever worry about Pathogens?

Included, but not limited to:
 
Hepatitis B  
   
Hepatitis C
   
HIV
   
Viral Hemorrhagic Fevers:

Ebola, Marburg, Lassa, Crimean-Congo...
End Quote

I don't know, but since others decided to go with the idea of referring to the liquid as actual urine, I went with that idea. I'm not speaking with certainty. I just thought that an old urine jar would not look like fresh one :P

As far as pathogens go, we should all worry about stepping outside if Serrano's art causes that much concern ::) Hey, people have gotten horribly sick (and some have died) from eating at Jack 'n The Box (E. coli), Subway (Hepatitis B), and from attending USC (Meningcoccus)... Ebola? Pfft-Hahaha! How certain are you that Serrano uses African subjects to get his fluids? And how difficult could it be, since he is dealing with body fluids, to ask of his human subjects to submit to lab tests? I suppose that's a question to ask of Serrano himself, if people aren't too afraid to catch cooties or something :) :D ;D

Quoting:
As far as pathogens go, we should all worry about stepping outside if Serrano's art causes that much concernEnd Quote

Your reply's a bit simplistic, don't you think?

Quoting:
And how difficult could it be, since he is dealing with body fluids, to ask of his human subjects to submit to lab tests?End Quote

I don't know. How difficult? You seem to be replete with answers.

Quoting:


Your reply's a bit simplistic, don't you think?

End Quote

The answers are simple because they are in response to simple questions. This isn't triple integral calculus or titration chemistry we're dealing with here...

Quoting:
This isn't triple integral calculus or titration chemistry we're dealing with here...End Quote

Perhaps, but you should do your homework when it comes to public health safety.

P.S. How come you log-in and out under different names all the time? It is your right. I was just curious. You even pulled-off an "x" post the other day.

I am getting tired of this debate with you too. It's just going nowhere. You have your opinions. I have mine.

I agree to disagree and let's be done with it.

Unless you wish to have the last word. By all means...

Quoting:
P.S. How come you log-in and out under different names all the time? It is your right. I was just curious. You even pulled-off an "x" post the other day.
End Quote

Hairspray, you are exactly right.  

I have been trying to keep count of Tarzan Boy's numerous log-in names.  Its amazing how he thinks we are not smart enough to figure out that his numerous names are actually him. ::)

Tarzan Boy, grow some...well, you know, and stop trying to be annonymous.  If you have something to say, don't hide under an "annonymous" name.  Its not working. ;)  

At least be man enough to stand by your statement.

Quoting:


Perhaps, but you should do your homework when it comes to public health safety.End Quote

I work in the health industry (this year will be my 7th). I've already taken a couple of OSHA safety tests. Every year I have to take one for the employee review. Just to enroll in a chemistry lab at school, I had to take a couple of MSDS safety exams. Granted, I'm not an authority in the field, but I know people who've gotten degrees in Public Health who know squat on the subject - and they did plenty of homework. Common sense along with some applied knowledge adds to the homework part.

So, yeah, if people disagree with me, it's fine. I'm not giving my opinion in order to change their minds. It just sharpens more my stance on whatever topic I happen to be reading (borrowed from Tangle... or is Taoist? Both smart chaps, imo). I don't mean to come off like someone who thinks is an authority on the subject, but if someone questions me on something I stated, then I'll answer it to the best of my knowledge. I can do the research, seek out current references, make my thesis statement, and proceed with my thought, but who here does that?! If it was Internet Infidels, I could see a point to doing something like that, but here, most everyone just states off the top their head or refer to websites...

Quoting:P.S. How come you log-in and out under different names all the time? It is your right. I was just curious. You even pulled-off an "x" post the other day.End Quote

Depends where I'm posting from. There are a couple of computer labs at school that don't let people use IM features, so, even when I try to log in, the computer automatically logs me off.

That fake X thing... I find that poster utterly repulsive.

Quoting:Unless you wish to have the last word. By all means...
End Quote

I'm a tireless rebutter among many things, but it's a good jab to question and then make a last sentence like that. Of course, it's going to make the poster on the other end think twice before replying, and if he/she does, then it'll look like the poster is the type who likes "to have the last word." Okay. I'll byte. Thanks for letting me have the last word.

This is going nowhere, but it's a diversion from doing actual work...

Quoting:


Hairspray, you are exactly right.  

I have been trying to keep count of Tarzan Boy's numerous log-in names.  Its amazing how he thinks we are not smart enough to figure out that his numerous names are actually him. ::)

Tarzan Boy, grow some...well, you know, and stop trying to be annonymous.  If you have something to say, don't hide under an "annonymous" name.  Its not working. ;)  

At least be man enough to stand by your statement.
End Quote

Dude. I've been trying not to respond to you. Don't make me.

Quoting:


Hairspray, you are exactly right.  

I have been trying to keep count of Tarzan Boy's numerous log-in names.  Its amazing how he thinks we are not smart enough to figure out that his numerous names are actually him. ::)

Tarzan Boy, grow some...well, you know, and stop trying to be annonymous.  If you have something to say, don't hide under an "annonymous" name.  Its not working. ;)  

At least be man enough to stand by your statement.
End Quote

You know, as annoying as he may be sometimes (in an amusing way though ;)) Tarzan Boy is a very intelligent person.  And when he lurks, he makes sure you KNOW who he is.  So I think he's actually "man enough" to stand up to his words.  Try not to provoke him, okay?

And X is repulsive, I agree.  

PS: I'm not defending TB because he needs it (he obviously does not).  I'm doing it because I feel that suddenly he is being unfairly singled out.  That ain't cool :-/

Quoting:
Dude. I've been trying not to respond to you. Don't make me.
End Quote

Should I expect a response from you, Tarzan Boy?  Or one of your many annonymous names?  I like to know who I am responding to.

Quoting:


You know, as annoying as he may be sometimes (in an amusing way though ;)) Tarzan Boy is a very intelligent person.  And when he lurks, he makes sure you KNOW who he is.  So I think he's actually "man enough" to stand up to his words.  Try not to provoke him, okay?

And X is repulsive, I agree.  

PS: I'm not defending TB because he needs it (he obviously does not).  I'm doing it because I feel that suddenly he is being unfairly singled out.  That ain't cool :-/
End Quote

well, excuse me while I vomit. ::)

Quoting:
Thanks for letting me have the last word.End Quote

You bet.  ;)

Quoting:
This is going nowhere, but it's a diversion from doing actual work...End Quote

You have a point.

Quoting:
The most offensive thing about Andres Serrano's "Piss Christ" is that it was funded by the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) - or by us, the taxpayers...taxpayers should not be coerced into funding such works.
End Quote

Agreed.