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*looks out the window at a canadian flag.

*smiles

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There is NO question as to the SLIME that murdered my son being guilty. I don't think that the three of them should have the right that they took from Blaine....they get to live and breathe, albeit in a prison cell for the rest of there sorry @ss time on this earth. Not wanting to jinx the last two trials so I will add that I hope the two remaining SCUM get what's coming to them....the shooter, thankfully, has already been convicted >:( As for them being put to death...I would favor it if they were ordered to each go through the exact same scenario as my son did....let THEM take his place at that restaraunt and one by one go through those horrid moments of that robbery/murder....only question is...who would I want to pulling the trigger each time.....maybe charles manson or OJ have some free time.
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I too am sorry about your son. My question is what good is the death penalty to you? How will it help you deal with what they did? Once again, I am really sorry about your loss. I just do not believe that two wrongs make a right. Now if you caught the SOB on the street, I would not blame you if you killed him there.

BTW, what exactly happened? Why did they do what they did?

Quoting:
What is wrong with the system? Why do we keep sending innocent people to death row? Arghh... Can't they get it right and only send the guilty?
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The solution to this is abolishing the death penalty. Other forward-thinking, modern nations like Canada, Britain, Australia, most of Europe, New Zealand don't have it. Even a good percentage of African nations either don't have it or rarely use it. Why does the US persist with this barbaric, medieval punishment?

Quoting:
I just do not believe that two wrongs make a right. Now if you caught the SOB on the street, I would not blame you if you killed him there.
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If two wrongs don't make a right, how can you justify "street justice"? It's still eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, Old Testament blood punishment whether it's done in a court room, or a back alley somewhere.

Quoting:


If two wrongs don't make a right, how can you justify "street justice"? It's still eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, Old Testament blood punishment whether it's done in a court room, or a back alley somewhere.
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There is a difference to me. I do not have to live in RockandRollFan's place, and he has every right to feel hurt and angry. If he lost it, and got even with the person who killed his son, then I would not judge at all. I would be very understanding. Having said that, I do not think society can kill one more person by execution til we fix the problem. Plus, when we execute people as a society, we are all saying that person should die as one voice. Society should be above all feelings or revenge, that is a human emotion. Society should be concered about saftey and preventing crime.

BTW, there is a passage in the Bible which says something to the effect of "He will judge us as we judge others". I may not have it quoted right, but I think it is accurate.

There is one last thought I have not posted because I do not want to offend RockandRollFan. I want to be very careful about not offending him because of what he has gone throught. But what about the lives of the criminals, before they were criminals? Shouldn't something be done to stop them before they cross the line?

Quoting:


The solution to this is abolishing the death penalty. Other forward-thinking, modern nations like Canada, Britain, Australia, most of Europe, New Zealand don't have it. Even a good percentage of African nations either don't have it or rarely use it. Why does the US persist with this barbaric, medieval punishment?
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Well said.



Cat

Quoting:


I too am sorry about your son. My question is what good is the death penalty to you? How will it help you deal with what they did? Once again, I am really sorry about your loss. I just do not believe that two wrongs make a right. Now if you caught the SOB on the street, I would not blame you if you killed him there.

BTW, what exactly happened? Why did they do what they did?
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Thanks John_Seminal.  A 21 and 20 year old punk and a 25 year old jerk in the Army were at the apartment of Lopez' (The Army guy) girlfriends apt.  She needed to make a car payment the next day and mentioned it...they had all been up for a day or two doing meth and pot. They left to go get dinner....after hours of cruising around they parked at a subway sandwich shop far from where they lived. They watched for a few hours as my wife and son went in at around 9 to get some sandwiches....I called him at 9:40 to thank him...he told me "No Problem" and said he'd be home soon.  I said "I Love You, Blaine" little did I know that he had 6 minutes to live.......they entered moments later. They got the money and ordered him and his 17 year old co-worker into the freezer....Blaine grabbed her and moved her in front of him so she entered the freezer first...I can't say more except to say that Lopez fired 1 shot through his pant leg...then after 5 long seconds, raised the gun and fired the fatal shot through my sons heart, killing him instantly.  Since being in jail they have ALL bragged that they killed him and that they would get away with it....Lopez has already been convicted to life without parole....the other two await. Now, should I feel good knowing they may end up getting televisions in thier cells like manson has....or if they had the death penalty here they would sit on death row for many years before finally dying...like ted bundy?  And I thank God they didn't have the $ to hire an idiot like johnnie cochran to turn it into a circus and free them...he is a criminal IMO...just like most "defense" attorneys....I HATE the show called The Practice too! Jennifers life was spared because they ran out and fled out the back door after killing my son. We have all embraced Jennifer as she is suffering from this horrible experience.  :'(

Quoting:
Rock-N-Roll Fan you are justified in you feelings, there is not anyone on this board that can say different.  I feel rage for this trajedy from this great a distance, I could not imagine what it would be in your steps.  
What is the benefit of the death penalty?  Knowing that the perpetrators that have taken joy, love, trust, and life from you will never be able to experiance it themselves.
Revenge?  Part of it, so what?

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Like I said before....these "Scum" get defended BY "Scum" who try to make it look like they're the "Victims"....These "Scum" don't deserve to have TV, websites, ect. when they are in PRISON. Johnnie cockhran has freed the "Man" who was shown on tape dragging, kicking and stomping on the head of Reginald Denny...he walked away....apparently Denny had brain damage and forgave his attacker ::) I know nothing will bring my son back....but instead of the way things are now (Treating scum like they belong to a F*cking country club) we should be sending the message that if you commit a crime you WILL be punished accordingly....and THAT is my beef with the (And I use the term SO very loosely) "Justice" System >:(

Quoting:

Like I said before....these "Scum" get defended BY "Scum" who try to make it look like they're the "Victims"....These "Scum" don't deserve to have TV, websites, ect. when they are in PRISON. Johnnie cockhran has freed the "Man" who was shown on tape dragging, kicking and stomping on the head of Reginald Denny...he walked away....apparently Denny had brain damage and forgave his attacker ::) I know nothing will bring my son back....but instead of the way things are now (Treating scum like they belong to a F*cking country club) we should be sending the message that if you commit a crime you WILL be punished accordingly....and THAT is my beef with the (And I use the term SO very loosely) "Justice" System >:(
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I think you are right, we should get rid of televisions in prisons. There is no reason they should be watching TV. They should be forced to do some kind of work. I also think we should lower the punishment for some crimes like robbery. If a crook thinks they will get simular punishments for robbery as murder, then they may just kill to avoid getting caught. If the punishment for robbery was a few months in prison with counceling and manditory work, where the punishment for murder was life with hard labor, then crooks would not have a reason to kill. If they got caught with a few hundred dollars, they would go to therapy and maybe come out better people. But at least they would not have a reason to kill. Money is not worth killing over.

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I think you are right, we should get rid of televisions in prisons. There is no reason they should be watching TV. They should be forced to do some kind of work. I also think we should lower the punishment for some crimes like robbery. If a crook thinks they will get simular punishments for robbery as murder, then they may just kill to avoid getting caught. If the punishment for robbery was a few months in prison with counceling and manditory work, where the punishment for murder was life with hard labor, then crooks would not have a reason to kill. If they got caught with a few hundred dollars, they would go to therapy and maybe come out better people. But at least they would not have a reason to kill. Money is not worth killing over.
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And I agree with you....these idiots HAD the money...my son cooperated....they STILL killed him...for a measley $200  >:(

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And I agree with you....these idiots HAD the money...my son cooperated....they STILL killed him...for a measley $200  >:(
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First off, this must be painful for you to talk about, and you have my deepest sympathy Mark.

Second of all: this is what keeps me on the fence: if there is someone who is innocent and on death row. That is the only thing keeping me on the fence of this issue. Why? I am sure you ask? Because what else are we supposed to do with the ones who are rabid. Like dogs they have gone rabid and there is no going back for these people. They are animals who kill. For someone to be on death row they have to be accused of some pretty heinous crimes and if they are guilty I say, screw death row, give them to the victims families to deal with (that will never happen in this country so don't freak out on me ok?). As to crime in general in this country: what kind of deterrent for crime is it if a person knows  that prison = college education. Television. Never having to work for food, shelter etc. Our penal system does not work. At worst, they can look forward to life as someone's prison b*tch. Sorry if this offends some people, normally I am not this aggressive but I am feeling more like She Who Must Be Obeyed today, and that gal just doesn't give a flying ---- if someone doesn't like her opinion. If the death penalty doesn't solve things, and many say it doesn't, and our penal system is broken, and I agree there that it is, then what do we do?

Quoting:


First off, this must be painful for you to talk about, and you have my deepest sympathy Mark.

Second of all: this is what keeps me on the fence: if there is someone who is innocent and on death row. That is the only thing keeping me on the fence of this issue. Why? I am sure you ask? Because what else are we supposed to do with the ones who are rabid. Like dogs they have gone rabid and there is no going back for these people. They are animals who kill. For someone to be on death row they have to be accused of some pretty heinous crimes and if they are guilty I say, screw death row, give them to the victims families to deal with (that will never happen in this country so don't freak out on me ok?). As to crime in general in this country: what kind of deterrent for crime is it if a person knows  that prison = college education. Television. Never having to work for food, shelter etc. Our penal system does not work. At worst, they can look forward to life as someone's prison b*tch. Sorry if this offends some people, normally I am not this aggressive but I am feeling more like She Who Must Be Obeyed today, and that gal just doesn't give a flying ---- if someone doesn't like her opinion. If the death penalty doesn't solve things, and many say it doesn't, and our penal system is broken, and I agree there that it is, then what do we do?
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The problem is with politics. It is the politicans who have writen these laws which do not work. They keep increasing the punishment and jail time for offenses which in the 50's would have been a slap on the hands and a local cop keeping an eye on the person. Now the offense does not match the punishment. Rob someone, get 10 years in jail. Heck, I think my state just passed a law which says if you rob someone and have a gun you get a manditory 15 years. I think murder at the low end is less than life. For a crook, those two sentances must not look that different. For politicans who want to appear "tough on crime", they are passing laws which are making criminals get violent.

Instead of increasing the time criminals spend in jail, why not make the time they spend harder? I think it would be more of a deterent to tell a robber they would get 2 month in jail with no TV and lots of work then to tell them they would get 5 years of cable TV. I also think people would be less likely to be violent if the punishment for robbery was not losing most of your young years. However, if someone kills someone, they you have to make the rest of their life a living hell. Let them know not only will they lose there freedom forever, but the time they have on earth will be a spent working from 6am to 10pm for free doing hard work. Treat murderers like slaves, whip them if you have to. Once the line of taking a life is crossed, that person has to pay.

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I am anti-death penalty.  I have thought long and hard about this...it is not an easy subject.  I think that these people need to live with what they did.  A better sentence would be life without the possibility of parole.  The only way these guys would leave would be in a body bag.  
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I would tend to agree with your statement...especially the life without parole (Lopez has that) but they NEED to get rid of all of the amenities they get...why should they be entitled to anything extra...it's bad enough I have to pay taxes to feed and shelter these @ss-holes...the fact that they get to breathe is bad enough without all the things they still can do....My son won't ever get to finish high school much less go on to further his education....he won't get to watch TV...go on a computer....while these scum will get all that and more...THAT is what bugs the crap out of me. Why can't they be put in a maximun security prison and spend 23 hours a day in lock-down...with NOTHING in thier cells? Does that not make sense to anyone? I apologize for the rant

Quoting:
First off, this must be painful for you to talk about, and you have my deepest sympathy Mark.

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Thanks shazzaah :-*

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Dagwood, you are right that these people should be made to suffer and live with what they did. I just don't feel that the burden of housing them and keeping them penned up should be placed on the public. The irony that victims are supporting these people with their tax dollar, it's harsh. The imprisoned should have to work to earn their keep, and not be given the priviledges that we all know they have. >:( I should be ranting to my congressman about it. Perhaps we all should be demanding that something be done.
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Thanks for the great idea, shazaah...I'll do just that...

Quoting:



Instead of increasing the time criminals spend in jail, why not make the time they spend harder? I think it would be more of a deterent to tell a robber they would get 2 month in jail with no TV and lots of work then to tell them they would get 5 years of cable TV. I also think people would be less likely to be violent if the punishment for robbery was not losing most of your young years. However, if someone kills someone, they you have to make the rest of their life a living hell. Let them know not only will they lose there freedom forever, but the time they have on earth will be a spent working from 6am to 10pm for free doing hard work. Treat murderers like slaves, whip them if you have to. Once the line of taking a life is crossed, that person has to pay.
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I agree.  These people have all of these 'luxuries' for free, while the rest of us have to pay for them.  While most inmates do have to work while in jail, it's a joke.  They do laundry, dishes, mop floors, etc.  PLEASE!!  I do that every day, and I haven't committed any crime (well, other than traffic offenses)  I think we should go back to the old days when they were put on 'chain gangs' and made license plates by hand.  

These people who say that "criminals have rights, too" should have their heads examined.  Sorry, you commit a crime, you lose your rights for the time you are incarcerated.   They should get 3 appeals, within a timely manner.  After that, too bad.  Right now, the death penalty is not a deterrent because people know that they can sit in jail, be fed, work out, watch tv, get free medical care, etc. pretty much indefinitely while their lawyers appeal and appeal and appeal.  Take away those luxuries and set a limit on the appeals and I think it might be more of a deterrent.

IMO...

Quoting:
Dagwood, you are right that these people should be made to suffer and live with what they did. I just don't feel that the burden of housing them and keeping them penned up should be placed on the public. The irony that victims are supporting these people with their tax dollar, it's harsh. The imprisoned should have to work to earn their keep, and not be given the priviledges that we all know they have. >:( I should be ranting to my congressman about it. Perhaps we all should be demanding that something be done.
End Quote

I agree with RnRF that if my theory were to work they shouldn't get anything extra.  23 hours a day in lockdown would be great.  I think that life without possibility of parole would actually be cheaper on the taxpayers because of the appeals process.  People get placed on death row and automatically appeals begin.  I think it is a waste of our money.  Revoke the priviledges..3 hots and a cot and nothing else.

Quoting:


I agree with RnRF that if my theory were to work they shouldn't get anything extra.  23 hours a day in lockdown would be great.  I think that life without possibility of parole would actually be cheaper on the taxpayers because of the appeals process.  People get placed on death row and automatically appeals begin.  I think it is a waste of our money.  Revoke the priviledges..3 hots and a cot and nothing else.
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There is a prison in California which does what you say, three meals, a slab of concrete to sleep on, and one hour a day of exersize (which means they do from their 6 by 7 cell to a 6 by 7 "exersize room"). I watched 20/20 or 60 minuites when they showcased this prison, and most of the inmates were insane. According to workers at the prison, these people eat their own feces and talk to walls. Now that is suffering!!!

The only catch is, to get into this jail, you have to be a convict who killed another person while in jail. So people can not be directly sent there by a judge. You already have to be convicted and in jail and kill someone else.

As for the three hots, i would change it to three colds. Screw them.

I remember a long time ago, there was a sherif on TV who had a county jail in Arizona. He served inmates green balonia. He wanted the food to look bad and smell bad so the inmates could not enjoy the food.

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I agree with RnRF that if my theory were to work they shouldn't get anything extra.  23 hours a day in lockdown would be great.  I think that life without possibility of parole would actually be cheaper on the taxpayers because of the appeals process.  People get placed on death row and automatically appeals begin.  I think it is a waste of our money.  Revoke the priviledges..3 hots and a cot and nothing else.
End Quote

There is a prison in California called the SuperMax which does what you say, three meals, a slab of concrete to sleep on, and one hour a day of exersize (which means they go from their 6 by 7 cell to a 6 by 7 "exersize room"). Not only that, but the cellings were something like 5 feet high in the cells, so inmates could not stand up. I watched 20/20 or 60 minuites when they showcased this prison, and most of the inmates were insane. According to workers at the prison, these people eat their own feces and talk to walls. Now that is suffering!!!

The only catch is, to get into this jail, you have to be a convict who killed another person while in jail. So people can not be directly sent there by a judge. You already have to be convicted and in jail and kill someone else.

As for the three hots, i would change it to three colds. Screw them.

I remember a long time ago, there was a sherif on TV who had a county jail in Arizona. He served inmates green balonia. He wanted the food to look bad and smell bad so the inmates could not enjoy the food.

Quoting:


There is a prison in California called the SuperMax which does what you say, three meals, a slab of concrete to sleep on, and one hour a day of exersize (which means they go from their 6 by 7 cell to a 6 by 7 "exersize room"). Not only that, but the cellings were something like 5 feet high in the cells, so inmates could not stand up. I watched 20/20 or 60 minuites when they showcased this prison, and most of the inmates were insane. According to workers at the prison, these people eat their own feces and talk to walls. Now that is suffering!!!

The only catch is, to get into this jail, you have to be a convict who killed another person while in jail. So people can not be directly sent there by a judge. You already have to be convicted and in jail and kill someone else.

As for the three hots, i would change it to three colds. Screw them.

I remember a long time ago, there was a sherif on TV who had a county jail in Arizona. He served inmates green balonia. He wanted the food to look bad and smell bad so the inmates could not enjoy the food.

End Quote

I'd be glad to "House" my sons three killers in my own home....it has a crawlspace >:(

Quoting:

I'd be glad to "House" my sons three killers in my own home....it has a crawlspace >:(
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A couple of things..

First, my heart goes out to you, RockandRollFan.  Absolutely nobody should have to endure the level of suffering you and your family have endured at the expense of another human being.

I've seen science fiction shows where criminals were banished to other worlds...barren and inhospitable.  For the amount of money it costs to house and maintain criminals, it would actually be cheaper to set up a penal colony on the moon, have supply ships drop off rations through a shoot that would be impossible to scale, and let's the "inmates run the asylum" as it were.  But that is a pipe dream which we will not see in our lifetime.

But back to the present reality...  Even RockAndRollFan will agree that innocent people have been put to death, and that our current "death penalty" system is flawed.  I believe that certain types of people who forsake their humanity by comitting certain kinds of crimes, should be put to death.  But I have a problem with the way our system identifies such people.

There would be no innocent people put to death if the criteria for selection were exact, instead of subjective to "beyond a 'reasonabl' doubt"  What's reasonable?  That's the subjective part.  IMHO, there should be an absolute absence of any doubt.  That means the crime was seen by a corroborating eye witness, or the criminal act was commited in the presence of a law enforcement officer.

You've all seen the dramatic recreations in the movies.  A marriage is breaking up, there's a lot of money involved, and there's a murder.  A spouse happens upon the gruesome scene and is found by authorities holding the knife which was used to slay the victim.  After trial, and hearing all the evidence, the person holding the knife is convicted of first degree murder, "beyond a reasonable doubt."  But then this and that happens and the convict is cleared after many years.  Our system is too subjective to be making these kinds of life or death decisions.

In RockAndRollFan's case, there were plenty of witnesses to the shooting, am I correct?  At least the surviving victim witnessed the murder.  A murder weapon was recovered, prints identified the murderer as such, and there is "absolutely no doubt."  For this person, I think upon conviction he should've been strapped to a chair, injected and put down like the dog that he is.  Evil has been known to escape from Maximum Security prisons. There is no escape from death.  I think this kind of evil should be commuted to the court of the Almighty God, and let his justice determine his eternal fate.

To conclude, to qualify for the death penalty, there must be absolutely no doubt at all.  It has to be as clear as the world is round.  Then, upon sentencing, death by lethal injection should be carried out immediatey.  That means, accused, tried, found guilty and euthenized upon the decision.  None of this 15 years on death row crap.

Dave

Quoting:


A couple of things..

First, my heart goes out to you, RockandRollFan.  Absolutely nobody should have to endure the level of suffering you and your family have endured at the expense of another human being.
In RockAndRollFan's case, there were plenty of witnesses to the shooting, am I correct?  


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A Video tape recorded all but the actual shooting (Which was on audio) and I have NO desire to see or hear either one...the nightmares are bad enough....these thugs NEED to be punished NOT nurtured...they took my sons life and I think breathing is a privilage for them.......

Quoting:

A Video tape recorded all but the actual shooting (Which was on audio) and I have NO desire to see or hear either one...the nightmares are bad enough....these thugs NEED to be punished NOT nurtured...they took my sons life and I think breathing is a privilage for them.......
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What I am about to suggest will seem unthinkable to you, and even contradictory to my prior posting.  But what I offer is for you, and anyone else who suffers from a great wrong inflicted on them by another.

While I cannot and will not pretend to empathize with what it must be like to lose a child in the horrible manner you have, I am something of an expert on the subject of rage.  Though justified, you have quite a bit of it.

Allow me to offer you a concept which other people seem to have known for most of their lives, but that I have just recently learned at 35 years of age (I'm now 37).  Forgiveness of the kind you must grant to your son's murderer is selfish.  This type of forgiveness will inflict more vengeance on whom it has been bestowed, than any cruel retribution you can conjure on your own.  It is not something you can grant on your own, but only with the help of God.

First, allow me to break down for you the effects of rage.  When under its influence, you feel invincible.  It is what wakes you up in the morning, and allows you to sleep at night.  It gives you a sense of purpose to live on, to plot, to scheme, to fuel your hatred.

But the very thing which seems to give you power, sucks away at your lifeforce, eats away and your organs, and can almost guaranty you a horrible, painful death at the hands of poor health.

My own short story...

Born in NY.  Father is a phreak.  Mother was phreakier.  Lived at home until age 11.  Put in foster care system.  Bouncy bouncy from house to house, school to school for 3 years.  Adopted at age 14 by a Lutheran Pastor and his wife.  4 years of subsequent, daily hell, as I experienced severely an interest in girls, which was never returned, and a tyrannical adoptive mother who was as manipulative and abusive as she was "pious" in the community.  To escape I joined the Navy where I had the time to work, cultivate and perfect my rage.  Exited service, honorable medical.  Became a debt collector, perfect for someone who never "fit in" and wanted to hurt everyone as much as I believed they hurt me.  1990, moved to CA.  Explored God for myself...not the God everyone was forcing down my throat since I learned bladder control.  Met and married my wife in 1993, two weeks after I met her.  Nearly divorced in 2000 as a result of my rage (all verbal, never physical).  Found the secret of forgiveness and marriage was saved.

Ok, that's the short story.  Over the years, the rage started taking organs.  Digestive system was first, lost appendix first, and lost my gall bladder to stones.  Irritable bowel syndrome plagues me to this day.  Then my heart.  I'm only in my 30s!  Tachycardia, or rapid heart beat.  The highest it ever got was 212 bpm.

What is forgiveness?  It's the cure for your life.  It has nothing to do with the other person.  In fact, it works best when the person you're forgiving doesn't ask for it, and even better still, when they don't deserve it.  Such was the long list of offenders in my life.  Here's forgiveness:  "Go in peace, though you owe me greatly, I release you from your debt.  But GO!"  It's bestowing emotional and social bankruptcy on another.  Now you're free to live your life, and spend all that energy loving those closest to you.  But don't think that though God gives each of us free will, that he does not exact a swift and painful vengeance on the behalf of those willfully wrong us.

Yep...what I'm suggesting is unthinkable, humanly impossible, and absolutely essential to your overall survival.

That's enough preaching :D  But I thought it was appropriate...Just this once.

Dave

Quoting:
I think you are right, we should get rid of televisions in prisons. There is no reason they should be watching TV. They should be forced to do some kind of work. I also think we should lower the punishment for some crimes like robbery. If a crook thinks they will get simular punishments for robbery as murder, then they may just kill to avoid getting caught. If the punishment for robbery was a few months in prison with counceling and manditory work, where the punishment for murder was life with hard labor, then crooks would not have a reason to kill. If they got caught with a few hundred dollars, they would go to therapy and maybe come out better people. But at least they would not have a reason to kill. Money is not worth killing over.End Quote

I agree.

My opinion on the death penalty -

I think the death penalty doesn't accomplish anything much, except cost the states and tax payers loads of money in appeals and a host of other legalities; not to mention the murder of a handful of wrongly convicted poor souls.

Aside from all the moral arguments, it is truly much more of a punishment for criminals to spend their entire remainder of their lives in prison without the possibility of parole.

I agree it would be much more of an efficient deterrent of crime if the convicted weren't given the privileges of a non-criminal free citizen; some of which include TVs, computers and access to the internet.

Criminals should be treated humanely but made to work hard from dawn 'till dusk and have an atmosphere conducive to their not only their regretting their crimes, but also to be made an example of. This would force other potential criminals to seriously consider their paths in life.

If prison life were harsher to the degree to which criminals deserve, we wouldn't have to contend with as many criminals including those so-called "repeat offenders". There wouldn't be any. Criminals and those with criminal inclinations would actually think twice before committing a crime.

For some criminals, the death penalty sometimes serves as a way out of this life at the expense of someone else. Some criminals feel they have nothing to lose. If they thought of doing hard work and a grey atmosphere for the rest of their lives without the possibility of parole, if they thought of dying in prison....

Maybe, just maybe it would make a difference in whether it would be worth it for them to even commit a crime in the first place.

I also agree with 80s_cheerleader.

Mountain_networksmade a good point that if the death penalty is insisted upon, it should be a system based on absolute certainty and sentence carried out immediately. Like he said, "None of this 15 years on death row crap". It would save a lot of time and money too.

Quoting:
Seems to me that those who don't got the capital get the punishment.End Quote

We are not saying sling every petty criminal into a cell for 23 hours. We are saying that this would be a better replacement for Capital Punishment.

Quoting:
I agree it would be much more of an efficient deterrent of crime if the convicted weren't given the privileges of a non-criminal free citizen; some of which include TVs, computers and access to the internet.
End Quote

I've yet to come across a prison that provides access to the internet for inmates - most of the ones I've been in haven't even got access for staff; computers are available purely for work training, so that when released, prisoners will have some useful skills.  If they don't have any useful work-related skills, when they get out what are they going to do to get money?

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Criminals should be treated humanely but made to work hard from dawn 'till dusk and have an atmosphere conducive to their not only their regretting their crimes, but also to be made an example of. This would force other potential criminals to seriously consider their paths in life.
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It wouldn't have an effect on potential criminals: people get into crime because they don't expect to be caught, so the severity of punishment is irrelevant to them.  I agree that inmates should be made to work, but organizing large amounts of work inside ain't as easy as you might think.  Most prisons, especially anything more than 20 years old, don't have enough space.

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If prison life were harsher to the degree to which criminals deserve, we wouldn't have to contend with as many criminals including those so-called "repeat offenders". There wouldn't be any. Criminals and those with criminal inclinations would actually think twice before committing a crime.
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, but you're wrong about this one, too: if you want to reduce recidivism, you have to treat inmates like human beings.  If you treat them like animals while they're inside, they'll behave like animals when they get out.

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Mountain_networksmade a good point that if the death penalty is insisted upon, it should be a system based on absolute certainty and sentence carried out immediately. Like he said, "None of this 15 years on death row crap". It would save a lot of time and money too.
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I agree in principle... but, the big question is, who decides on that certainty?

Phil

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Sorry about your son.

When I was at school in South Africa, one of my teacher's parents were murdered on their farm.  Not a robbery.  Purely committed out of hate.  They were both in their 80s.
My teacher (call him Mr. K) was (obviously) extremely confused, shocked and angry, and wanted blood (understandably).
Eventually the youths responsible for the killings were caught and Mr. K went to the police station where they were being held where he did something that will continue to inspire and give me hope for as long as I live.
He went up to each one of them in turn, and said that, while he would never be able to understand why they did what they did, he forgives them.
What he did, didn’t make the pain go away.  It didn’t bring his parents back.  It did however help him heal much faster than all the rage and anger that he could have heaped on his parents killers would have.  And I can almost guarantee that it was the last thing that they expected – that it hurt more than any angry words or actions that he could have inflicted on them.

I hope that I never end up in a similar situation.  But if I do, I pray that I can display the strength and courage that Mr. K did.

On a much larger scale, it is forgiveness, not revenge that saved the entire country.


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I've yet to come across a prison that provides access to the internet for inmates...End Quote

What... Is it only in the U.S.? Figures. ::)

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It wouldn't have an effect on potential criminals: people get into crime because they don't expect to be caught, so the severity of punishment is irrelevant to them.End Quote

I disagree.

"Word-of-mouth" info is a very powerful tool in the criminal community. If the treatment is harsher (not talking about inhumane) in prisons, it will have an effect on the potential criminal in weighing the consequences; They do think about the "what-ifs".

I also don't believe "people get into crime because they don't expect to be caught".

There are a myriad of reasons why people get into crime, but that's beside the point. Most criminals are not cocky enough to have the attitude that they "don't expect to be caught". Unless it's a "crime of passion", criminals do look at the possible end result.

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I agree that inmates should be made to work, but organizing large amounts of work inside ain't as easy as you might think.  Most prisons, especially anything more than 20 years old, don't have enough space.End Quote

I didn't mean work inside, necessarily. There could be plenty for them to do outside on prision grounds. I was thinking more like what (was it Shaz?) someone else said about chain gangs.

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Sorry to sound like a broken record, but you're wrong about this one, too:End Quote

It's not polite to tell people they're wrong in an opinion foum. This is how debates get ugly. ;)

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if you want to reduce recidivism, you have to treat inmates like human beings.  If you treat them like animals while they're inside, they'll behave like animals when they get out.End Quote

I never stated inmates should be teated like animals and/or inhumanely.

When I said, "If prison life were harsher to the degree to which criminals deserve..." I meant that if they should be given just the bare essentials, basic necessities to survive and made to work hard the normal number of civilian working hours, no TV, no cable, no radio, etc.

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I agree in principle... but, the big question is, who decides on that certainty?

PhilEnd Quote

That's the beauty of it! No need to rely on anyone for certainty. The witnessed actions should speak for themselves.

I didn't explain that very well in my previous post.

To recap, my opinion was based on mountain_networks':

IMHO, there should be an absolute absence of any doubt.  That means the crime was seen by a corroborating eye witness, or the criminal act was commited in the presence of a law enforcement officer.

You've all seen the dramatic recreations in the movies.  A marriage is breaking up, there's a lot of money involved, and there's a murder.  A spouse happens upon the gruesome scene and is found by authorities holding the knife which was used to slay the victim.  After trial, and hearing all the evidence, the person holding the knife is convicted of first degree murder, "beyond a reasonable doubt."  But then this and that happens and the convict is cleared after many years.  Our system is too subjective to be making these kinds of life or death decisions.

In RockAndRollFan's case, there were plenty of witnesses to the shooting, am I correct?  At least the surviving victim witnessed the murder.  A murder weapon was recovered, prints identified the murderer as such, and there is "absolutely no doubt."  For this person, I think upon conviction he should've been strapped to a chair, injected and put down like the dog that he is.  Evil has been known to escape from Maximum Security prisons. There is no escape from death.  I think this kind of evil should be commuted to the court of the Almighty God, and let his justice determine his eternal fate.

To conclude, to qualify for the death penalty, there must be absolutely no doubt at all.  It has to be as clear as the world is round.  Then, upon sentencing, death by lethal injection should be carried out immediatey.  That means, accused, tried, found guilty and euthenized upon the decision.  None of this 15 years on death row crap.