Quoting:
oh no, 80s_cheerleader I have a feeling you just opened the pandora's box the the great abortion debate. :o End Quote

Seriously.  Let the mudslinging begin ::)

Quoting:
Nuts, I knew one of you was going to do this...grrr.

Alright.  I think abortion is the woman's choice.  She is the one who makes the commitment to suffer back pains, morning sickness, crazy cramps, bloating, hormonal rage and labor over a nine-month span.  I find it difficult to justify a man's position in this unless A) He is the father and B) he actually cares about the baby.  I think the caring father has a say in it, but ultimately I believe it's the woman's decision and I can't fault her for it.

As for the courts...the Supreme Court does listen to public opinion.  So if you want abortion to continue to be legal (to an extent, mind you.  I believe once it has a beating heart you've reached the point of no return), you'd better start the protests.End Quote

I agree. (Man, you saved me a lot of typing too! ;D ;))

Quoting:
So, how do YOU feel about it, hairspray?End Quote

If you can follow the Forum Guidelines while posting and discuss the issue with intelligent statements as opposed to one-liner dribble, your posts may remain.

http://www.inthe80s.com/rules.shtml

Quoting:
Abortion rate continues to slide

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER EDITORIAL BOARD...End Quote

I'll always applaud the "Choice" of LIFE over the "Choice" of DEATH

Quoting:
Please remember this is just my opinion:
I am Pro-life not Pro death....from the time a baby is "Concieved" it is a creation of GOD...nobody has the "Right" to kill it.  Again...Just my opinion ;)
End Quote

Quoting:
An opinion that has much merit and I think difficult to argue.

End Quote

Well...

Leaving religion out of it for a moment...

Pregnancy is a result of two people engaging in the very normal and natural interaction we call sex, the consequence of a totally physical and biological action.

But I will not argue.  ;D

Quoting:
Please remember this is just my opinion:
I am Pro-life not Pro death....from the time a baby is "Concieved" it is a creation of GOD...nobody has the "Right" to kill it.  Again...Just my opinion ;)
End Quote

What if you don't believe in God?  I am also Pro-Life, but nobody has the "right" to tell someone else what they can or cannot do because they have different beliefs.

Quoting:


What if you don't believe in God?  I am also Pro-Life, but nobody has the "right" to tell someone else what they can or cannot do because they have different beliefs.
End Quote

I KNEW I shouldn't have brought GOD into it....okay..I'll just say that what Bill Mahar referred to as "Goo"....I believe is a LIFE...therefore if one destroys it, it's the victim that didn't get the "Choice"

Quoting:
So, for those of you who are anti-abortion, do you think it should be overturned and abortions outlawed?

If so, what about cases where the life of the mother/child is at a high risk of ending?  Would it be justified in those cases?
End Quote

Remember, hun, YOU ASKED FOR IT ;)  ;D   :o

Quoting:
So, for those of you who are anti-abortion, do you think it should be overturned and abortions outlawed?

If so, what about cases where the life of the mother/child is at a high risk of ending?  Would it be justified in those cases?
End Quote

Ok...like I said in my post, In the case of rape or incest and what you said...where the life of the mother and child are in danger.  

As for the law being overturned?  I don't know.  That is a difficult question, where it is legal now people get them in a medical facility that is sterile.  If it were illegal some women would go to back alley butchers...so I guess I say keep it legal.  

Quoting:
Please remember this is just my opinion:
I am Pro-life not Pro death....from the time a baby is "Concieved" it is a creation of GOD...nobody has the "Right" to kill it.  Again...Just my opinion ;)
End Quote

I am going to keep my opinion as simple as possible and not get emotional on this as I usually do. I agree with RNRF. My reason: I have witnessed what abortion is. And what it does to both parties involved.

Quoting:


What if you don't believe in God?  I am also Pro-Life, but nobody has the "right" to tell someone else what they can or cannot do because they have different beliefs.
End Quote

They why are you questioning the comments that someone else said? I believe that noone has the "right" to shove their opinion down someone else's throat. ::) I have noted that you tend to do this in other threads as well. ::) ::) If you don't want an opinion, why did you ask?

Quoting:


They why are you questioning the comments that someone else said? I believe that noone has the "right" to shove their opinion down someone else's throat. ::) I have noted that you tend to do this in other threads as well. ::) ::) If you don't want an opinion, why did you ask?
End Quote

I forgot to put the words "I just feel that" before the statement "nobody has the "right" to tell someone else what they can or cannot do because they have different beliefs."  If you had read the ENTIRE statement, you would have seen the words "I am pro-life" and in an earlier thread,  "Personally, I am against abortion. "  I am AGREEING with them! How can I be shoving MY opinion down their throats if it is the same opinion!?  

The question

Quoting:So, for those of you who are anti-abortion, do you think it should be overturned and abortions outlawed?End Quote

was to get it back to the original discussion of whether or not they think Roe v. Wade should be repealed.  

Just to set the record straight, then I won't say anything else that someone might get offended at:
I believe in God.  I also believe that life begins at conception.  I do not believe that abortion is right.  I do believe in freedom of choice.

My sincerest apologies to those that I have offended in this thread and others.    From now on, I will try to keep my opinions to myself so I don't rock the boat. :-X

Quoting:
My sincerest apologies to those that I have offended in this thread and others.    From now on, I will try to keep my opinions to myself so I don't rock the boat. :-X
End Quote

Bullcrap.  Your opinion is important, as is everyone else's opinion on this board.

That guy was just being trollish and confrontational.  I understood what you said, and I think you should stick by your guns so long as you have the stuff to back up your words :)

Quoting:


Bullcrap.  Your opinion is important, as is everyone else's opinion on this board.

That guy was just being trollish and confrontational.  I understood what you said, and I think you should stick by your guns so long as you have the stuff to back up your words :)
End Quote

I agree with Rice.

Quoting:
Abortion has been around since the beginning of time. Unfortunately, women who have had abortions before Roe v. Wade, faced many obsticles-I am not just talking about the law. I am talking about finding abortions clinics in back alleys done by men with butcher knives in dirty back rooms. IF the woman survived the proceedure, she may have had many infections, and even not been able to have kids at a time when it was right for her to do so.  With the legalization of abortion, the proceedure is safe (except from fanatics who stand in front of clinics). If Roe v. Wade were to be reverse, women would once again head for the back alleys, in unsafe places. For that reason alone, I think we should keep abortion legal.

However, I personally think it is a woman's choice one way or the other.

CatEnd Quote

I agree with this statement as well.

For the record...

It should be kept legal, in my opinion.

I do have a problem with it being done later in the pregnancy, however. In my opinion, the only time it should even be a consideration at those late stages is if it becomes a medical issue in terms of life risk and/or if it is discovered that the fetus has a debilitating/significant birth defect.

Quoting:



I agree with Rice.
End Quote

Quoting:
This may sound weird, but what about more "compassionate" reasons?

For example, what if, after giving birth, the woman is unable to care adequately for the child?  Of course, she could unload it (hmmm, that sounded bad) on a foster home or orphanage, but who is to guarantee that the baby will be taken care of any better there?

So I think this issue is more than meets your eye :-/
End Quote

Quoting:
Maybe if there were more sexual responsibility practiced this would not be an issue. :(
End Quote

Quoting:
This may sound weird, but what about more "compassionate" reasons?

For example, what if, after giving birth, the woman is unable to care adequately for the child?  Of course, she could unload it (hmmm, that sounded bad) on a foster home or orphanage, but who is to guarantee that the baby will be taken care of any better there?

So I think this issue is more than meets your eye :-/
End Quote

Ok...soapbox time.

I think that this reason is full of holes.  You can't give your baby up but you can kill it?  It doesn't work for me.  I have heard this excuse and I just roll my eyes.  Trust me...I gave a baby up for adoption 13 years ago.  As much as it hurt, there is no way I could have aborted.  It just seemed wrong...of course this is just my opinion....

Ok..off the soapbox waiting for all the rotten fruit to be hurled at me.

Quoting:


Ok...soapbox time.

I think that this reason is full of holes.  You can't give your baby up but you can kill it?  It doesn't work for me.  I have heard this excuse and I just roll my eyes.  Trust me...I gave a baby up for adoption 13 years ago.  As much as it hurt, there is no way I could have aborted.  It just seemed wrong...of course this is just my opinion....

Ok..off the soapbox waiting for all the rotten fruit to be hurled at me.
End Quote

S'alright.  No fruit from me.  This was just a reason off the top of my head, but I see why you'd find it invalid.

Quoting:
Alright.  I think abortion is the woman's choice.  She is the one who makes the commitment to suffer back pains, morning sickness, crazy cramps, bloating, hormonal rage and labor over a nine-month span.  I find it difficult to justify a man's position in this unless A) He is the father and B) he actually cares about the baby.  I think the caring father has a say in it, but ultimately I believe it's the woman's decision and I can't fault her for it.
End Quote

There is a third person involved, the unborn child. I can not understand why a woman would want to let her unborn child die :'(. To say the child would be better off dead, rather than having a hard life due to being unwanted, does not make sence to me. What if some highschool kid said they wanted to commit suicide because life sucked. People would want to stop him/her. Life is valuable. I hope women who are making this decision do not make it quickly or lightly. I hope they try and look for services to help them first. Once the abortion is done, there is no bringing the kid back to life.

If people complain that the foster care/ child welfare systems are not working then we should fix them. There are kids who would benifit today from a better system. Even if abortion contines to be legal, we should help kids who need support today.

Quoting:





From now on, I will try to keep my opinions to myself so I don't rock the boat. :-X
End Quote

Hey, don't worry about it. There's no way you can say what you truly believe without making some people angry.
Like I said in another thread. Interesting discussions usually get heated.
No one has the right to stifle someone elses belief, and no one should lash out against someone else for stating their belief.

Quoting:

Hey, don't worry about it. There's no way you can say what you truly believe without making some people angry.
Like I said in another thread. Interesting discussions usually get heated.
No one has the right to stifle someone elses belief, and no one should lash out against someone else for stating their belief.
End Quote

I like the way you think, Eli_Sheol ;)

Quoting:

I like the way you think, Eli_Sheol ;)
End Quote

Well, I hope you still like the way I think after reading my post on my opinion of the legality of abortion.
But hey, thanks.

Quoting:

Well, I hope you still like the way I think after reading my post on my opinion of the legality of abortion.
But hey, thanks.
End Quote

Quoting:As soon as sperm meets egg, that cluster of cells is on its way to becoming a person.  

End Quote

Exactly!

Quoting:
Is anyone else besides me against both abortion and capital punishment?
Simply put, I believe the aborted fetus is a human being.  I don't buy the trimester argument, the viability argument.  As soon as sperm meets egg, that cluster of cells is on its way to becoming a person.  

End Quote

Quoting:
Good to see that your consistant Steve, that was always something that confused me about liberal and concervatives, the Libs being pro-abortian anti-death penalty and the Conservatives being anti-abortion and pro death penalty.  

End Quote

That's because he's an independent thinker, not a Sheeple ;)

I'm pro-abortion, pro-death penalty and pro-assisted suicide.  Chew on that.  ;)

Quoting:
Good to see that your consistant Steve, that was always something that confused me about liberal and concervatives, the Libs being pro-abortian anti-death penalty and the Conservatives being anti-abortion and pro death penalty.  

End Quote

Me too, Race.  Although I don't think many people would say they support abortion as the contraception of choice.  I'm not coming at it from a religious angle, but I've always kind of admired the Catholic Church's consistent opposition to both abortion and the death penalty.

Quoting:
It's definately well stated in a way that I hadn't heard before.  I don't completely agree that legal abortions removes the social stigma, I think that comes more from their socio group and family that forms those values more than the law.
Abortion rates have fallen the past 10 years so clearly the law isn't a factor in the deduction of it's frequencey today. Two factors that have affected abortion rates are HIV and other STD's and that women are having their children at a later point in life.


End Quote

I agree.  There is still a social stigma associated with abortions.  I think the reason they need to stay legal is mostly a safety issue.  The problem I have with putting limits on the legality of it is this:  I had a friend who was date-raped, but did not report it to police.  She DID become pregnant from this and had an abortion.  She also contracted a sexually transmitted disease during the rape which would not have endangered her life, but most likely would have caused her child to be born with serious health issues that would have made it's life hell.  I also knew of a girl (18 years old) who thought she might be pregnant by her boyfriend, who her parents didn't know about.  But, after having sex with the boyfriend, in order to keep her parents from finding out about him and the sex, came home and said she had been raped at a party.  They immediately called the police, took her to the hospital, where it was found that she WAS pregnant.  Her parents took her to have an abortion, then, during the rape investigation, she admitted that she had never been raped.  So, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think we should put limits on the legality of abortion.  I realize the latter case probably wouldn't happen any more than it does now, but what about cases like my friend?  Her child would have been alive, but would not have had a 'life'.  Like I said before, I think abortion is wrong, but who am I to tell someone else what they can or cannot do?  

Quoting:


That's because he's an independent thinker, not a Sheeple ;)

I'm pro-abortion, pro-death penalty and pro-assisted suicide.  Chew on that.  ;)
End Quote

Hmmm... I haven't even thought about assisted suicide.  I've heard physicians are no longer regularly taking the Hippocratic Oath.  Here's the classical version off the PBS website:

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

Quoting:


I agree.  There is still a social stigma associated with abortions.  I think the reason they need to stay legal is mostly a safety issue.  The problem I have with putting limits on the legality of it is this:  I had a friend who was date-raped, but did not report it to police.  She DID become pregnant from this and had an abortion.  She also contracted a sexually transmitted disease during the rape which would not have endangered her life, but most likely would have caused her child to be born with serious health issues that would have made it's life hell.  I also knew of a girl (18 years old) who thought she might be pregnant by her boyfriend, who her parents didn't know about.  But, after having sex with the boyfriend, in order to keep her parents from finding out about him and the sex, came home and said she had been raped at a party.  They immediately called the police, took her to the hospital, where it was found that she WAS pregnant.  Her parents took her to have an abortion, then, during the rape investigation, she admitted that she had never been raped.  So, I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think we should put limits on the legality of abortion.  I realize the latter case probably wouldn't happen any more than it does now, but what about cases like my friend?  Her child would have been alive, but would not have had a 'life'.  Like I said before, I think abortion is wrong, but who am I to tell someone else what they can or cannot do?  
End Quote

I can understand and respect your viewpoint and your friends situations Cheerleader...but let me throw another example out here....in 1978 my stepmother had a child born with down syndrome. This girl was the sweetest, most wonderful ray of sunshine that could have come into our lives. She died in 1980, not of that disease, but heart problems. Now, by using the logic that some do of stating "the child would not have a life", my sister Stephanie, whom we all loved so very much and who loved us back, should have been aborted? I think not. Just as some say "Who am I to judge on how to tell someone to live?" I say "Who am I to judge on who shouldn't be born?"....just different viewpoints I guess. This is not an attack, just a different point of view. I used to be "pro-choice" before a very dear friend of mine went through an abortion, and as I stated before, I have seen what it does to the mother and the child. I was horrified from that moment on to ever think I was pro choice. But then, that is my opinion.

Quoting:
Good to see that your consistant Steve, that was always something that confused me about liberal and concervatives, the Libs being pro-abortian anti-death penalty and the Conservatives being anti-abortion and pro death penalty.  

End Quote

   Well, maybe not that consistent.  If I understand Steve's position correctly, he supports an unjust war in which an innocent civillian population will inevitably be in the line of fire (Iraqi-Bush War).  Now, if two all volunteer armies want to gather way out in the middle of nowhere and pound the shite out of each other, that would be fine by me, no moral dilemma or inconsistency.  But, I digress...

Quoting:


   Well, maybe not that consistent.  If I understand Steve's position correctly, he supports an unjust war in which an innocent civillian population will inevitably be in the line of fire (Iraqi-Bush War).  Now, if two all volunteer armies want to gather way out in the middle of nowhere and pound the shite out of each other, that would be fine by me, no moral dilemma or inconsistency.  But, I digress...
End Quote

The innocent civilian population is there because they are the puppets of the Iraqi government as human shields.  Take that somewhere else, please.  Not that I have anything against you, Davester, this is just not the forum to be picking a fight.

Quoting:


   Well, maybe not that consistent.  If I understand Steve's position correctly, he supports an unjust war in which an innocent civillian population will inevitably be in the line of fire (Iraqi-Bush War).  Now, if two all volunteer armies want to gather way out in the middle of nowhere and pound the shite out of each other, that would be fine by me, no moral dilemma or inconsistency.  But, I digress...
End Quote

Dave is right in that I'm not opposed to war, which at its root is state sanctioned murder.  We disagree on the imminent Iraqi war, which I thought was on a different thread http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool030.gif

Quoting:
Abortion should be kept legal, if for no other reason, to keep from reverting back to darker times when women would go to back alley butchers, under unsanitized conditions to do them illegally and get mutilated or killed in the process. End Quote

Using the fact that non-legal abortions may happen in less than desirable settings is not a good reason to keep abortion. If you are concerned with the health of the mom, why not extend that same concern to the kid?  

Quoting:


Using the fact that non-legal abortions may happen in less than desirable settings is not a good reason to keep abortion. If you are concerned with the health of the mom, why not extend that same concern to the kid?  
End Quote

So what's your opinion on the scenario up there?

Quoting:


So what's your opinion on the scenario up there?
End Quote

There are some decisions which I thank god I do not have to make. I would try my best to help the child, to find the best doctors, to work as hard as I could to save the child. I would read every book written on their disease. Medicine is not always 100% right, and miricales do happen.

Do any of you watch the St. Jude research hospital fund raisers? You see some very sick kids, with horrible diseases like cancer, but they still LOVE life. They still try and joke and play and want to be touched and to give love. Would you pull the plug on one of them if you knew they would end up with lukemea?

This reminds me it is time for me to give blood again. I am healthy and must help others.

Quoting:
How would you decide if it were a case where the child was severely deformed in the womb and was going to be born incapable of living unless hooked-up to machines, in pain and bedridden?
End Quote

Speaking from experience as a neonatal nurse for the last 14 years, there is no way medically that any parent can be totally sure that their baby will end up like this until after delivery. There has been more than one occasion that parents have been told some senario like this to find out after they have the baby that the dr. was incorrect. Life begins at conception and abortion is ending that life.

Quoting:
I want to make it clear that I am not pro-abortion. I am PRO-CHOICE meaning that I think it is up to the woman to choose as she feels is the best decision. As a woman, I do not like the idea of some guys in Washington taking away my choices.




Cat
End Quote

Shouldn't there be some voice for the unborn? One of the most common wants that all animals have is the desperate want to survive. So I think if the unborn has a choice, it would chose to live.

Quoting:


Shouldn't there be some voice for the unborn? One of the most common wants that all animals have is the desperate want to survive. So I think if the unborn has a choice, it would chose to live.
End Quote

Should a fetus have more rights than a woman?




Cat

Quoting:



Should a fetus have more rights than a woman?




Cat
End Quote

The woman has the "Choice" to either murder something that is concieved and therefore exists....or she can make the decision to have the baby and give it up for adoption, as there are MANY people who want children that are not able to have them...IMHO, THAT would be the "Right Choice" ;)

Quoting:



Should a fetus have more rights than a woman?




Cat
End Quote

Even a fetus with only a few cells is still alive. It has all of the features you would find in any living thing- from a nuclues to a membrane to mitchondria to DNA. A fetus cell has the same make up as a developed human's cells. It is just too weak to survive on its own without the mom.

I think abortion is a bad place to argue about rights. It is about a human life. If a person needs to let a child die to "have rights" then I am speechless.

I think it is just as important to offer services to moms who are pregnant. We should provide them with care regardless of ability to pay, and we should have better adoption programs available. Moms should never feel like they have no other option than to abort a life.

Quoting:
Well, I'll weigh in with my opinion - usually considered cold and callous - but I believe in pro-choice anytime for any reason. Humans have children, raise children to be responsible, independent humans themselves, and then those humans make the same decision when it's their turn.

I believe the choice to bring a life into the world entails nurturing and raising the life you create.  If you can't do that, or just don't want to do that, then I say don't bring the child into the world.  Adoption as an alternative is always the first suggestion in these discussions, but unless it's a perfectly healthy white child with good family medical history, the success rate in finding homes just doesn't support the "just have the baby and put it up for adoption and we'll all live happily ever after" theory.

And the "mom-helping" programs, where it was just suggested that we put more money into making sure all the accidental pregnancies become living, breathing human beings that we will THEN have to support with welfare (since most of these abortions are by women who don't want a child specifically because of the lack of ability to support a kid with their high school or less education) well, that's just ludicrous.

Mom-helping programs sounds sweet, but the point is, no one has made a conscious decision to be a mom in these scenarios, only a conscious decision to go with the hormones and have unprotected sex.

Our tax monies already support all the welfare children whose mothers REALLY wanted to have the kids, THOUGHT they'd be able to take care of them, and NOW find they were wrong.  

We'd multiply that problem exponentially if we now try to push, prod, or embarrass the women who DON'T want to be mothers, never wanted to be mothers, or know they are not in a financial or mental state to be mothers yet - into a decision that would assure a substandard state-supported childhood with inept parenting resulting in the type of human beings we'll be discussing in the capital punishment thread later.End Quote

I think your post is well thought out. I'll be a bit surprised to see a rebuttal.

Quoting:
I believe in pro-choice anytime for any reason.End Quote

You want abortion to be on demand, as a method of birth control? Don't you care about the unborn child at all?

Quoting:
unless it's a perfectly healthy white child with good family medical history, the success rate in finding homes just doesn't support the "just have the baby and put it up for adoption and we'll all live happily ever after" theory.
End Quote

What? If the kid is white it will have a better chance at a good life? Bull. Most people do not have a dream life, but it is better than death.

Quoting:
And the "mom-helping" programs, where it was just suggested that we put more money into making sure all the accidental pregnancies become living, breathing human beings that we will THEN have to support with welfare
End Quote

You are wrong. I know people who were adopted, and they have good lives with good jobs. They are moral and decent people and they are glad to be alive.

Quoting:
We'd multiply that problem exponentially if we now try to push, prod, or embarrass the women who DON'T want to be mothers, never wanted to be mothers, or know they are not in a financial or mental state to be mothers yet - into a decision that would assure a substandard state-supported childhood with inept parenting resulting in the type of human beings we'll be discussing in the capital punishment thread later.
End Quote

Your whole post is based on myths and stereotypes. Adopted kids do succeed. Black kids do succeed. They need love and caring people to help them as children, as everyone needs. Even if they do not have a perfect childhood, they still know how to give love and be thankful.

And how do you know that one of them may not be the next Einstien, or person who will make a medical discovery, or great author?

Quoting:

You want abortion to be on demand, as a method of birth control? Don't you care about the unborn child at all?

End Quote

The mother was there first, and if she feels unable or unwilling to take care of the baby, no one should force her to do it.  The unborn child is a mass of cells.

Quoting:
What? If the kid is white it will have a better chance at a good life? Bull. Most people do not have a dream life, but it is better than death.
You are wrong. I know people who were adopted, and they have good lives with good jobs. They are moral and decent people and they are glad to be alive.End Quote

You described SOME of the people who were adopted.  Others are not so lucky.  You accuse Ayhab of stereotyping, but the stories that you hear in the news about abused adoptees and runaways, I'm fairly sure they're true too.

Quoting:
Your whole post is based on myths and stereotypes. Adopted kids do succeed. Black kids do succeed. They need love and caring people to help them as children, as everyone needs. Even if they do not have a perfect childhood, they still know how to give love and be thankful. End Quote

You're right.  They do need love and caring people.  But some of them don't get that and become criminals and axe-murderers and drug addicts.  I'd rather a mother abort than treat their kid like sh!t, or throw their kid into a foster home where they're treated like sh!t, and have them become the next Hitler or Ted Bundy.

Quoting:
And how do you know that one of them may not be the next Einstien, or person who will make a medical discovery, or great author?
End Quote

Or the next Unabomber, or the next McVeigh...etc. etc.

If you're going to have a free country, sometimes you're going to have to trust the individual's ability to choose.  I support abortion not because I like butchering fetuses, but because I believe that ultimately people can make the right choice.

Quoting:

Your whole post is based on myths and stereotypes. Adopted kids do succeed. Black kids do succeed. They need love and caring people to help them as children, as everyone needs. Even if they do not have a perfect childhood, they still know how to give love and be thankful.

And how do you know that one of them may not be the next Einstien, or person who will make a medical discovery, or great author?
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I agree that adopted kids and black kids do succeed.  However, he does have a point about the healthy white male child.  If you look at adoption statistics, the number of white children that are adopted outnumbers the number of minority children 4 to 1.  I don't think he was saying that white male children have better lives, just that they have a MUCH better chance of being adopted, any healthy white child does.

BTW, I agree 100% with Catwoman.  

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BTW, I agree 100% with Catwoman.  
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Thank you.




Cat

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The mother was there first, and if she feels unable or unwilling to take care of the baby, no one should force her to do it.  The unborn child is a mass of cells.
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The unborn child is alive, it has life. Just because someone else was "here first" should not be enough to allow such a serious choice to be made so easily. There should be a very good reason to why she wants to kill the unborn child.

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You described SOME of the people who were adopted.  Others are not so lucky.  You accuse Ayhab of stereotyping, but the stories that you hear in the news about abused adoptees and runaways, I'm fairly sure they're true too.
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What about the ones who did succeed? Should they have their lives ended because others failed? According to this logic, we should look in prisons to find the group most represented, then stop that race from repoducing. That way there will be less of them. Just because one adopted child becomes bad should not be a reason to kill all of them.

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You're right.  They do need love and caring people.  But some of them don't get that and become criminals and axe-murderers and drug addicts.  I'd rather a mother abort than treat their kid like sh!t, or throw their kid into a foster home where they're treated like sh!t, and have them become the next Hitler or Ted Bundy.
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You may rather the mother abort, but the kid would probably pick life, even a sh!tty one at the begenning.

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If you're going to have a free country, sometimes you're going to have to trust the individual's ability to choose.  I support abortion not because I like butchering fetuses, but because I believe that ultimately people can make the right choice.
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How is killing a child the right choice? There must be a better option. At the very least, we should improve the foster care system and give moms more choices.

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What about the ones who did succeed? Should they have their lives ended because others failed? According to this logic, we should look in prisons to find the group most represented, then stop that race from repoducing. That way there will be less of them. Just because one adopted child becomes bad should not be a reason to kill all of them.End Quote

I don't think he's saying that ALL adopted children should not be here.  How does the issue of some adopted children being bad 'logically' become a race issue?   I don't follow...

Quoting:You may rather the mother abort, but the kid would probably pick life, even a sh!tty one at the begenning. End Quote

You said it, probably...we don't know.  I'm sure the ones who have been beaten and abused would beg to differ.

Quoting: There must be a better option. At the very least, we should improve the foster care system and give moms more choices.
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As long as that 'choice' doesn't include abortion, right?  And, improving the foster care system in this country is a pipe dream.  People have been trying to improve that and the welfare system for years and as we can all see, it is sooo much better.   Just think of what it would be like if we added a million more kids into it...

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You said it, probably...we don't know.  I'm sure the ones who have been beaten and abused would beg to differ.
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So, if 90% of these kids would chose life, and the other 10% would want suicide, you would kill them all? Come on, these are lives we are talking about. This is not a choice like picking what to have for dinner.

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As long as that 'choice' doesn't include abortion, right?  And, improving the foster care system in this country is a pipe dream.  People have been trying to improve that and the welfare system for years and as we can all see, it is sooo much better.   Just think of what it would be like if we added a million more kids into it...
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I do not get pro-abortion people sometimes. What is wrong with improving foster care. You say it is broken and can not be fixed. Sometimes I wonder if that is the position pro-abortion supporters take to scare women into killing their unborn child.

I never said, not once in any post I wrote that abortion should be made a crime. All that I have been posting is my beliefe that all life is valuable, and that there should be good alternatives available. If you really want choice, then why not have good choices available?

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Well, I for one think that kids should be taught safe sex but giving out birth control in the school might not help much. Today's kids have to understand that there is more out there than just an unwanted pregnancy. There are STDs now that are not just cured by a dose of penicillin.
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I would not give out condoms in middle school! I would even have problems with them given out in high school. Wouldn't this help the kids have sex by encouraging them to try new things. I think sex education is a good thing, and that would help. I believe they must be honest with kids. Maybe show a video of an abortion so they see what happens. Perhaps there are women who have given abortions who regret their choice, and they can talk to the kids too.

The whole point is to make the kids think about the consequences of their choices. If everything kids do is about fun and good times, they will be suprised when the party ends and there is a price to pay. We should better prepare them to make wise desicions and be responsible.

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I would not give out condoms in middle school! I would even have problems with them given out in high school. Wouldn't this help the kids have sex by encouraging them to try new things. I think sex education is a good thing, and that would help. I believe they must be honest with kids. Maybe show a video of an abortion so they see what happens. Perhaps there are women who have given abortions who regret their choice, and they can talk to the kids too.

The whole point is to make the kids think about the consequences of their choices. If everything kids do is about fun and good times, they will be suprised when the party ends and there is a price to pay. We should better prepare them to make wise desicions and be responsible.
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If this is the case then, as much as I may not like the idea of it, I too am pro-choice. Ideally, we all want to learn from the past mistakes of others, but if there's one thing in life that has taught me well is that people do irrational things; they participate in dangerous activities - even with the ability of forethought. It should be worth a try, at least, to have contraceptives and condoms readily available in high school. Open communication can only go so far. I don't knock it, but the alternative would be having to make the difficult decision to abort or not (we don't tell everything to our parents and friends, do we?). I just thought it could be a feasible precautionary measure for teen moms and teens who choose to have abortions. There's no easy solution to the entire problem and a lot of us may not like the societal remedies, but it's better than debating and judging others' values. We need a proactive, realistic solution (reality is something that is seldom fun and entertaining). This sounds like something to be tackled locally...

On a side note. VDs are bad too (some are lethal). I was just referring to the topic of abortion. I haven't thought on the subject of VD. Should this be addressed as well?

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Also, I have yet to meet a heart-thinker who actually acts on those opinions other than to try and use other peoples monies and affect other peoples lives to achieve those ideals.  How many ethnic children with health problems stemming from the biological mothers drug problem have you adopted to date? Or how many of those unwanted children do you plan to adopt in the future?
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I have two anwsers to this question. First, the personal anwser. I volonteer at a local high school. I help kids with math and science and computers. You would be suprised how much these kids learn when they get interested in something. For example, I was showing some of the kids how apache works and HTML. They were really into it, from wanting to write their own homepages to musicpages. They were like sponges sucking up information. Now give them a dull class with a less than caring teacher, and I doubt they would get as much out of it. As for adopting a kid, I would like to do that sometime in the future. Nothing would give me more pride than helping someone succeed that everyone wrote off as a failure. My second anwser to your question is there are some things which government can do better than individuals. When was the last time you saw 30 private citizens people show up in a field to build a highway. Government has the ability to help children by supporting programs which show a return on the investment.

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Rather depressing.  What the hell.  Let's just try your way.  No condoms, just tell them to abstain, and make sure if they don't abstain all of them take the babies to full term.  I can handle it, just cleaned out my car and found a lot of spare change.
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What you posted above is not what I said, at least not what I meant. Maybe condoms will work. I just do not feel comfortable passing them out to kids. But if the numbers are there to show it works, then pass them out. Likewise, I could never let myself lose a kid to abortion but I have never posted that I would take that right away from women. I just believe that abortion should be the very last option after all other possible choices have been considered. Why not spend an extra week looking into possibilities, who is in a hurry. There is only one kind of abortion that should be outlawed immediatley and that is the partial birth abortion, where health babys have a tube shoved in their skull and the brain is sucked out so they die at birth. That is just wrong.

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So, if 90% of these kids would chose life, and the other 10% would want suicide, you would kill them all? Come on, these are lives we are talking about. This is not a choice like picking what to have for dinner.  I do not get pro-abortion people sometimes. What is wrong with improving foster care. You say it is broken and can not be fixed. Sometimes I wonder if that is the position pro-abortion supporters take to scare women into killing their unborn child.End Quote

Why are people who are pro-choice automatically pro-abortion?  I have stated many times that I think abortion is WRONG!  My oldest son was not planned and my (now)hubby and I talked about our options.  He has had girlfriends in the past have abortions, without his knowledge, and that option never came up in our discussions.   But, the reason I am pro-choice is that I don't feel that it is anyone's right to tell a woman what they can or cannot do with their body.   Have you ever been to a Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic?  Before they do anything, you are counseled and asked if you have considered all the options, adoption, keeping the baby, etc.  They do not try to "scare" anyone into having an abortion.  I did not say that the foster system in this country couldn't be fixed.  It should, but I don't see it happening in my lifetime.  

Quoting:I never said, not once in any post I wrote that abortion should be made a crime. All that I have been posting is my beliefe that all life is valuable, and that there should be good alternatives available. If you really want choice, then why not have good choices available?
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I agree with the belief that all life is valuable, but there ARE good alternatives available already.  I don't think that most women who have had an abortion go into it lightly, some do, but most don't.  They have weighed all of their other options and feel that it is the best choice for them.  Many have seen the foster/welfare systems and don't want that for their children.  

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Yes, I have seen an abortion (not live, but on videotape) and I agree, it is disgusting.  However, I have also seen what happens to babies that are born to people who didn't want them.  I would much rather see a baby killed before it was born, than see one who is born addicted to crack/alcohol or see a small child abused and killed by the parents who did give it life or the foster care system, which treats most wards like animals.  I have seen too many kids who have been abused/neglected by their parents to count.  If that seems cold-hearted, then so be it.  I would much rather see people take responsibility for their actions, but, unfortunately, that just doesn't happen anymore. :(
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I can not understand you saying that death for a child is better than a fighting chance. Even if life is bad, it can get better. There are people who care and want to help. There are good teachers and people in the community. If parents are abusive, then lock them up. And you would rather kill a child than give it a chance? What if you were aborted? How would you like it if your mom decided to kill you rather than let you live? Is that her choice? And what about doctor assisted suicide. Following your example, if a 8 year old is having a tough time with life and is unhappy, why not get some doctor help him to die? If you are for the killing of life, then you can not just limit yourself to an unborn child. The morals are the same. Killing is murder.

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I can not understand you saying that death for a child is better than a fighting chance. Even if life is bad, it can get better. There are people who care and want to help. There are good teachers and people in the community. If parents are abusive, then lock them up. And you would rather kill a child than give it a chance? What if you were aborted? How would you like it if your mom decided to kill you rather than let you live? Is that her choice? And what about doctor assisted suicide. Following your example, if a 8 year old is having a tough time with life and is unhappy, why not get some doctor help him to die? If you are for the killing of life, then you can not just limit yourself to an unborn child. The morals are the same. Killing is murder.
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Unfortunately, there are not enough people who care and want to help most of these children.  You say that life can get better, but what if it doesn't?  I am very lucky in the fact that my parents wanted me and gave me a good life.  The plain truth is that there are many parents out there who don't.  If I had lived my entire life full of neglect and abuse, then I probably wouldn't want to be here.  These children grow up knowing that they were never wanted.  In turn, they don't value their own lives, much less someone else's.  I have seen it happen.  Sometimes counseling works, but sometimes it doesn't.  Children learn by example.  If they are abused, chances are, they will become an abuser.
As far as your comment on Dr. assisted suicide, that is an entirely different situation.  I don't think a dr should help someone die unless they are in severe physical pain or have no quality of life left.  If I were suffering from some terrible degenerative disease, I would want someone to help me die.  Just because someone is unhappy is no reason for it.  That's just ludicrous!  
Just because I am pro-choice, doesn't mean that I think abortion is the only answer.  I don't!  In a perfect world, I would like to see all children being born and adopted into loving families, like my oldest brother was.  The truth is, we don't live in a perfect world.