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Subject: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Outgoing Illinois Governor George Ryan (Rep.) commuted all 167 death penalty sentences in his states days before he left office.
This is from a recent article:
"I am not prepared to take the risk that we may execute an innocent person," he wrote in an overnight letter to the victims' families warning them of his plans.
With death row inmates he had recently pardoned sitting in the audience as he spoke Saturday, Ryan framed the death penalty issue as "one of the great civil rights struggles of our time."
"Our capital system is haunted by the demon of error — error in determining guilt, and error in determining who among the guilty deserves to die," Ryan said. "What effect was race having? What effect was poverty having?"
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20030111/ap_on_re_us/death_penalty_ryan
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Interesting topic Steve, I have to give that Gov. credit for some big cahones. :o
I was listening to NPR and they had the story of the judge that investigated the Illinois Death Row and did have some signifigant cocerns, of course that was probably an appointed judge and not an elected one. Whatever the end result is, if we are more certain of our death sentences are within the law, all for the better.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Good point TB,
I don't oppose the death penalty and statistics clearly show this it is imposed much more opten to minorities than whites in similar crimes.
Question- Should we be comdemning more whites to death or less blacks? Whoever is comdemned we should be confident that it is carried out correctly within our justice system.
Quoting:
Considering the amount of innocent people and the discrepancy between who gets to be put to death, I think it's a good idea - at least to put a moratorium to it to make much-needed improvements to our justice system. I heard on the news some of the death-row inmates actually did not want their sentences to be commuted...
End Quote
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
But, really, it is not for me to judge who gets to die and who gets to live.
End Quote
It shouldn't be an issue for anyone to have to decide.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
This may have been a more difficult decision if Ryan was the incoming, rather than the outgoing, governor.
I'm not even sure he's against the death penalty, per se. "I am not prepared to take the risk that we may execute an innocent person."
The death penalty is barbaric, at best it satisfies our blood-lust for vengeance. Lock them away where the sun don't shine til the end of their days, but don't butcher them.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
The death penalty is barbaric, at best it satisfies our blood-lust for vengeance. End Quote
Indeed. It intrigues me that the US maintains the death penalty when most other developed countries have abolished it. I'm sure it does act as some kind of deterrent, but even prison without the threat of the death penalty is punishment enough to make most people think twice about committing crime, and most people who are properly socially-conditioned are unlikely to commit murder in the first place. People who are predisposed toward violent behaviour for whatever reason are more than likely going to commit violent crimes no matter what the punishment, and hope they're not caught. Certainly if there's a chance they'll be sentenced to death for what they've done, they're likely to take even more action to prevent capture/discovery, and that can lead to even more violent behaviour.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Indeed. It intrigues me that the US maintains the death penalty when most other developed countries have abolished it. I'm sure it does act as some kind of deterrent, but even prison without the threat of the death penalty is punishment enough to make most people think twice about committing crime, and most people who are properly socially-conditioned are unlikely to commit murder in the first place. People who are predisposed toward violent behaviour for whatever reason are more than likely going to commit violent crimes no matter what the punishment, and hope they're not caught. Certainly if there's a chance they'll be sentenced to death for what they've done, they're likely to take even more action to prevent capture/discovery, and that can lead to even more violent behaviour.
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I don't know if it is a deterrent. The United States has the death penalty and it's homicide rate is an international embarassment when compared to nations without the death penalty. Minnesota doesn't have the death penalty, and our homicide rate is low in comparison to the rest of the nation.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Death Penalty isn't an effective deterrent, Florida and Texas ues it regularly and it hasn't seemed to slow the crime there.
As for Minnesota, well the cold slows those violent people down enough to keep the streets safer. ;)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
West Virginia hasn't had the death penalty since 1965 and West Virginia usually has the lowest crime rate in the nation…
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
I remember when Rob Lowe last hosted SNL...he was doing a Scooby Doo skit as Shaggy...it was fairly innocuous, sorta funny, but then when the Scooby said, "The Reath Renalty! Ree-hee-hee-hee-hee!" I lost it ;D
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
I used to back the death penalty 150% but now..I can see both sides of this. I feel so much for the families that were affected by the 150+ ppl he commuted (can we commute the death sentence of their victims?), yet, like he said if there is a possibility of one person who was innocent then an innocent has been saved. I just don't know what the right answer is anymore. Is death ever a correct punishment? Yet, forcing the taxpayer to support an unreformable prisoner for the rest of his days, pay for a college education for them, support their "right" to frivolous lawsuits (remember the chunky/smooth peanut butter lawsuit by an inmate a few years back?)...sorry this is one subject that leaves me with more ?s than answers.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
This may be a gross generalization, but sometimes it seems like the prisoners have more rights and priviledges than their victims. It shouldn't be that way.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
This may be a gross generalization, but sometimes it seems like the prisoners have more rights and priviledges than their victims. It shouldn't be that way.
End Quote
Yep, that's an over generalization. But it is true criminals have to many rights.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Hate to say it, but I agree with you there, Earl. No way am I for the death penalty, but a lifetime on bread and water on Devil's Island is just fine with me.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Being from Illinois, I have heard so much about this, it's not even funny. The main problem I have is that he commuted ALL of the sentences after saying he would review each one and make a decision. Don't know if y'all know this, but these clemency hearings started a few months ago. Now, there are people who were on death row that have been proven guilty with DNA evidence, etc., who are now going to live. He also pardoned 4 death row inmates, 3 of whom are now free (the fourth is still in prison on an unrelated charge) whose "confessions" were basically beaten out of them. AND, Gov. Ryan, when he was just a statesman (back when Illinois reinstated the death penalty) voted FOR it. Oh, and don't forget the "License for Bribes" scandal that he is still under investigation for and many of his workers have been convicted and sentenced for. I think the only reason he did it the way he did was so he would be remembered for something other than the LFB scandal.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Now, there are people who were on death row that have been proven guilty with DNA evidence, etc., who are now going to live.
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To quote a forensic scientist: DNA evidence doesn't prove you guilty, at best it proves you were present. There's been plenty of cases where someone was convicted from fingerprint evidence which put them at the crime scene, with nothing to say precisely when they were there. The same may well be true using DNA as juries are given the implied judgement that becuase the defendent's DNA was found, they must be guilty.
On topic: what about this for an idea... The defendent, once convicted, gets to choose between a life in prison or the death penalty. Not perfect, I know, but anyone who is truly innocent will at least live long enough to get a chance to prove it; any defendent on a life sentence who decides they've had enough of prison life (and life in general) can opt for in effect state-sponsored suicide.
Just a thought
Phil
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
To quote a forensic scientist: DNA evidence doesn't prove you guilty, at best it proves you were present.
End Quote
Very true.
Quoting:
On topic: what about this for an idea... The defendent, once convicted, gets to choose between a life in prison or the death penalty. Not perfect, I know, but anyone who is truly innocent will at least live long enough to get a chance to prove it; any defendent on a life sentence who decides they've had enough of prison life (and life in general) can opt for in effect state-sponsored suicide.
End Quote
Also true, but the death penalty is a de facto life sentence because of the bazillion appeals that go on to get the guy off deathrow :P
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Also true, but the death penalty is a de facto life sentence because of the bazillion appeals that go on to get the guy off deathrow :P
End Quote
...so think of the saving in legal fees...
Phil
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
...so think of the saving in legal fees...
End Quote
Or they could try a "three appeals and you're out" policy ::)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
So who's for the death penalty, who's against, and please tell us,..why?
The reason I ask is becasue I support it, but I can't come up with a good reason for it. We know it's not a deterrant, that it costs more than housing the crimimal for life with the legal fee's. Does that leave a good reason to put someone to death for? Is my reasoninig as shallow as sweeping dust under the carpet, the "appearance" that the world is a cleaner place. ???
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
So who's for the death penalty, who's against, and please tell us,..why?
The reason I ask is becasue I support it, but I can't come up with a good reason for it. We know it's not a deterrant, that it costs more than housing the crimimal for life with the legal fee's. Does that leave a good reason to put someone to death for? Is my reasoninig as shallow as sweeping dust under the carpet, the "appearance" that the world is a cleaner place. ???
End Quote
As for me, I just don't know Race. As I stated in an earlier post, my thoughts are similar to yours..I used to support it..but I just don't know now. ??? I'm on the fence I guess.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Let me pull a proposal I came up with years ago...
You want the death penalty? Fine. But to be honest about it, likes do it by lottery. Every state with the death penalty draws executioners from the jury lists. No exemptions, no volunteers. If your name is called, you go. If it isn't, you don't.
Truss the prisoner up and hang him upside down by his feet, suspended from the ceiling. The chosen executioner is given a knife and as much time as they need to kill the accused.
Bloody? You bet. Upsetting? I wouldn't want to do it. Cruel and unusual? A little more so other methods, but is there a non-cruel way to kill somebody?
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Funny thing, Steve, is that I might actually go for that...of course I spent a graduate school term eviscerating mice, rats and other vermin, so I'm not really afraid of blood anymore. I dunno about anyone else though.
I re-read what you suggested, and that falls under cruel and unusual punishment, I believe. I'll stay away from the mad-dog liberals and just give the dude a lethal injection, thank you very much ;) Funny how you gotta disinfect the area before you inject the poison.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Funny how you gotta disinfect the area before you inject the poison.
End Quote
That's too funny for words... of course, if the guy got septicaemia before he died, he might sue ;-)
Phil
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
The Death Penalty is not a deterrent in this country because criminals know they have opportunities to a) Get "Life in Prison" as a sentence and b) the right to an Appeal.
Some countries do not sway or stray. If it is proven or judged to the best of their ability a criminal is guilty of a heinous crime, they get the Death Penalty. No "Life in Prison. No Appeals.
That kind of system would actually make a person think twice before commiting a heinous crime.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Some countries do not sway or stray. If it is proven or judged to the best of their ability a criminal is guilty of a heinous crime, they get the Death Penalty. No "Life in Prison. No Appeals.End Quote
Oh yeah. Some governments don't play games.
Quoting:
That kind of system would actually make a person think twice before commiting a heinous crime.
End Quote
Actually, if a person wants to do something badly enough, chances are he'll do it anyway.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Actually, if a person wants to do something badly enough, chances are he'll do it anyway.End Quote
Spoilsport! <sticks tongue out>
;)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Actually, if a person wants to do something badly enough, chances are he'll do it anyway.
End Quote
That's the nut of the problem. The death penalty simply cannot be used as a deterrent. If we're in favor of the death penalty, it has to be for a different reason.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
To quote a forensic scientist: DNA evidence doesn't prove you guilty, at best it proves you were present. There's been plenty of cases where someone was convicted from fingerprint evidence which put them at the crime scene, with nothing to say precisely when they were there. The same may well be true using DNA as juries are given the implied judgement that becuase the defendent's DNA was found, they must be guilty.
Phil
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Sorry, I didn't mean that DNA was the only evidence, but when combined with other evidence, it is a pretty strong case. For example, there was one convicted killer whose blood was found in the victim's panties, and was matched via DNA. He also killed the victim's boyfriend and was sentenced to death for the two murders, as well as the rape of the female. In another case, the murderer left a trail of blood from the victim's apartment to his own. The victim's blood was found in his sink and throughout his apartment. In cases such as these, there is no doubt that the DNA evidence HELPED prove their guilt.
As far as being for or against the death penalty, I think that there should be uniform guidelines. In Illinois, you could get 3 different mandatory sentences for murder, based on where the crime was committed. I feel that if you rape and murder someone, you should die. If you kill more than one person, you should die. Most of the inmates on death rows across the country have long criminal records. I agree with the "3 strikes, you're out" ideology, but I also think it should include 3 violent crimes (at least one being a murder) and you're out!
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
That is one tough Cheerleader! ;)
It's great that you can state you opinion so honest and clearly, assured women are so sexy. ;D
Quoting:
Sorry, I didn't mean that DNA was the only evidence, but when combined with other evidence, it is a pretty strong case. For example, there was one convicted killer whose blood was found in the victim's panties, and was matched via DNA. He also killed the victim's boyfriend and was sentenced to death for the two murders, as well as the rape of the female. In another case, the murderer left a trail of blood from the victim's apartment to his own. The victim's blood was found in his sink and throughout his apartment. In cases such as these, there is no doubt that the DNA evidence HELPED prove their guilt.
As far as being for or against the death penalty, I think that there should be uniform guidelines. In Illinois, you could get 3 different mandatory sentences for murder, based on where the crime was committed. I feel that if you rape and murder someone, you should die. If you kill more than one person, you should die. Most of the inmates on death rows across the country have long criminal records. I agree with the "3 strikes, you're out" ideology, but I also think it should include 3 violent crimes (at least one being a murder) and you're out!
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Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Funny thing, Steve, is that I might actually go for that...of course I spent a graduate school term eviscerating mice, rats and other vermin, so I'm not really afraid of blood anymore. I dunno about anyone else though.
I re-read what you suggested, and that falls under cruel and unusual punishment, I believe. I'll stay away from the mad-dog liberals and just give the dude a lethal injection, thank you very much ;) Funny how you gotta disinfect the area before you inject the poison.
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And I would counter by saying that the death penalty is, in and of itself, cruel and unusual.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
What is Cruel and Unusal?
Merriam Websters says-
Cruel
1 : disposed to inflict pain or suffering : devoid of humane feelings
2 a : causing or conducive to injury, grief, or pain <a cruel joke> b : unrelieved by leniency
Unusual
: not usual : UNCOMMON, RARE
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
That is one tough Cheerleader! ;)
It's great that you can state you opinion so honest and clearly, assured women are so sexy. ;D
End Quote
As apposed to us who are meek mild and undecided. You go girl! I just can't see this issue in black and white anymore.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
You're great too shazzaah, introspective, thought provoking women are sexy too!
Truth is I'm kind of in the same boat as you at this point, it was easy to be pro when I didn't consider it to deeply.
Quoting:
As apposed to us who are meek mild and undecided. You go girl! I just can't see this issue in black and white anymore.
End Quote
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
You're great too shazzaah, introspective, thought provoking women are sexy too!
Truth is I'm kind of in the same boat as you at this point, it was easy to be pro when I didn't consider it to deeply.
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You're making me blush ;) , but really, I thought I had it "all" figured out...I am just finding out the older I get the less I know. :-/ If we don't use the death penalty....then what under the canopy do we do with these people?? Is there any solution that is sensible, reasonable, practical, and most important, justified?
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
I am just finding out the older I get the less I know
End Quote
Ah, the dawning of true wisdom :-)
Quoting:
If we don't use the death penalty....then what under the canopy do we do with these people?? Is there any solution that is sensible, reasonable, practical, and most important, justified?
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One of the major conundrums of civilised life... I suppose cost-effective comes in there under "practical", but at the moment it's pretty ridiculous, cost-wise. But since I don't have a perfect solution, either, the best I can come up with is: put them in prison and build lots more prisons (not because I think prison works, but I do lots of work for prisons and it makes my order book look healthier :P)
Phil
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
That is one tough Cheerleader! ;)
It's great that you can state you opinion so honest and clearly, assured women are so sexy. ;D
End Quote
Thank You!!! And I thought it was my short skirt ;D
This just happens to be one of the things I feel very strongly about. Don't even get me started on Pro-Choice/Pro-Life...
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Ah, the dawning of true wisdom :-)
One of the major conundrums of civilised life... I suppose cost-effective comes in there under "practical", but at the moment it's pretty ridiculous, cost-wise. But since I don't have a perfect solution, either, the best I can come up with is: put them in prison and build lots more prisons (not because I think prison works, but I do lots of work for prisons and it makes my order book look healthier :P)
Phil
End Quote
Yeah, and prisons don't cost money ::) I keep hearing stories about how prisoners can sue for internet connections, cozier quarters, better food...it's ridiculous when the state pen becomes the Courtyard by Marriott :P >:(
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Yeah, and prisons don't cost money ::) I keep hearing stories about how prisoners can sue for internet connections, cozier quarters, better food...it's ridiculous when the state pen becomes the Courtyard by Marriott :P >:(
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Oh, so you've been to prison too? :D !
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Oh, so you've been to prison too? :D !
End Quote
Almost, but I outran the cop ;)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Thank You!!! And I thought it was my short skirt ;D
This just happens to be one of the things I feel very strongly about. Don't even get me started on Pro-Choice/Pro-Life...
End Quote
Well, the skirt did help in the decision. ::)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
If we don't use the death penalty....then what under the canopy do we do with these people?? Is there any solution that is sensible, reasonable, practical, and most important, justified?
End Quote
If we kill them we are no better than they are. It appears that Gov Ryan, who had been a proponent of the death penalty, learned something that made him do a one-eighty.
As far as the death penalty as a deterrence goes... It seems to me a lot of murderers are sociopaths who value their live no higher than their victims'. Some even seem to have a suicide wish. Sane people may be deterred by harsh sentences, but insane people may want to be ritually put to death.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
If we kill them we are no better than they are. It appears that Gov Ryan, who had been a proponent of the death penalty, learned something that made him do a one-eighty.
End Quote
I dunno man...what I read and heard seems to me that he did it to save his own poor sorry @$$.
Quoting:
As far as the death penalty as a deterrence goes... It seems to me a lot of murderers are sociopaths who value their live no higher than their victims'. Some even seem to have a suicide wish. Sane people may be deterred by harsh sentences, but insane people may want to be ritually put to death.
End Quote
Let's give them what they want then ;) And while we're at it, can we put the money-grubbing moron lawyers who "defend" them to death too?
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
I have to say that I don't believe in the death penalty for many reasons. As we know, the justice system in this country is flawed. Innocent people being accused just so the local police force can look good by saying, "we got someone to pay for this crime" whether that somebody did it or not. We have lawyers and judges who sleep on the job. I'm not just talking about what we read in the paper, but from what I saw with my own eyes. I served jury duty in Texas and the judge looked like he was sleeping. Capital punishment has proven NOT to be a deterent crime. I just want to pose a hypothical situation. We all do not know what is on the "other side." What if it is all "heaven" as we think heaven should be and there is no hell. Then does that fit the crime? I think rotting in some jail cell for many, many years is hell and would fit the crime.
Cat
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
I dunno man...what I read and heard seems to me that he did it to save his own poor sorry @$$.
End Quote
As I said before, being from Illinois, I agree with you. I think he just did it to make his name known for something other than the "License for Bribes" scandal.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
I dunno man...what I read and heard seems to me that he did it to save his own poor sorry @$$.
End Quote
How does making this controversial decision protect Ryan from anything?
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Well, let's see what we've got so far: Death penalty is not a deterrent and costs money. Prison for life is not a deterrent and costs money. (Remember Timothy Mcvey, may he rot in hell? He wanted to be put to death. He thought in his sicko mind that he would be a martyr) So I reiterate-what do we do with these people? How galling it must be for the families of victims of cold blooded murderers, to have their tax dollars going towards supporting these people as they receive legal representation (their victims did not receive that), food, clothing, shelter, college eductations (are their victims receiving that?). So...I still sit on that fence. :( >:( You cannot, in all honesty do a "three strikes and your out". That program implies that if they kill three people, they are "out". I think just killing one person is enough thanks. This is perplexing. I can see both sides of it and at the same time neither side is practical, sensible or justified.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Well I've been holding out on this issue up to now because it's a sore subject for my family personally. But a Governor's job is not to play God, but to protect his constituancy. By commuting all of Illinois' death sentences to life, he has endangered the very people who has helped him to get his job. What about those his state has already executed? Some of those might be innocent too. It doesn't make much sense to a man who has registered as a Republican. He must have known he lost some support when he decided to leave office. I hope he doesn't try to run for President, whichever Party he might be in.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
How does making this controversial decision protect Ryan from anything?
End Quote
Governor Ryan (when he was Sec of State of IL) is the main figure in a "license for bribes" scandal. Many of his top aides have been convicted of taking bribes from people wanting to obtain CDL licenses in the state.(people who either failed or never even took a test) There was an accident in Wisconsin that killed a family of (I think) 8. It involved a truck driver who obtained his CDL license in Illinois. When they were investigating, they could find no record of his application/test for a CDL. And, it snowballed from there. They are still investigating Ryan's involvement in this...
Also, there is an issue of improper campaign funds. It has been suggested that come of the bribes were funneled into his election campaign. Others came from sources that were questionable. This is also currently under investigation...
I think this is what was meant by Rice Cube. Then again, I could be wrong, but this is what I think... ::)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
I think this is what was meant by Rice Cube. Then again, I could be wrong, but this is what I think... ::)
End Quote
Yeah, I heard there was a scandal, but I couldn't find a source. Thanks buddy :)
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
Yeah, I heard there was a scandal, but I couldn't find a source. Thanks buddy :)
End Quote
Here are a few...
http://www.detnews.com/2000/nation/0002/05/02050095.htm
http://www.ilcampaign.org/scandal/keydates4-11-02.html
http://www.ilcampaign.org/
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Quoting:
How galling it must be for the families of victims of cold blooded murderers, to have their tax dollars going towards supporting these people as they receive legal representationEnd Quote
...and yet the cold-blooded murderers were sentenced to die. That is galling. What's even more galling is when you consider how many death row inmate's cases are being reviewed and death sentences overturned/commuted due to advances in science (DNA).
Quoting:food, clothing, shelter, college eductations (are their victims receiving that?).End Quote
One would almost be tempted to commit crimes just to get into prison for the above benefits alone. If more of the indigent and undereducated had realistic access to those benefits perhaps freedom would be more pleasant than prison.
Quoting:"three strikes and your out"End Quote
A hot, steaming pile of manure, that concept.
Quoting:That program implies that if they kill three people, they are "out".End Quote
Also, in its strictest interpretation, if you knowingly bounce three bad checks (I think the felony threshold is $400) you are out.
Quoting: I think just killing one person is enough thanks. This is perplexing. I can see both sides of it and at the same time neither side is practical, sensible or justified.
End Quote
No, the vindictiveness called moral indignation is neither of the three. A punishment with the least harm to the perp is always a better way to go, IMO. As has been oft said, killing to say killing is wrong is moronic.
Subject: Re: Gov Ryan and the Death Penalty
Oh my...to get myself back on topic I'll just say that, in general and without reading files and court transcripts, and despite alleged transgressions while in office, I approve of the Gov's decision, whatever his motivation.