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Subject: War is Over
If you want it!
We are just taking what is being fed to us by the American government. We are letting ourselves hate people we don't even know because we are being told that they are horrible people.
I'm sorry, but I am so annoyed with the state of affairs in the world at the moment and that we are just accepting what is being served to us. We need to fight the real enemy. Yes, fight terrorism, but don't associate terrorism with a whole race of people. Listen to what the government has to say, but disagree with it if you think it is wrong.
Sorry to sound preachy, but I think the immortal words of Melanie say it all:
So raise your candles high,
Oh, did you know we cound save black against the night?
Oh raise them higher again
And if you do we could stay dry against the rain.
Peace
Subject: Re: War is Over
Most of what happens in the world we are not fully informed about. That is the state of how things are done. Personally, I am not going to lose any sleep over it. As a country we voted to elect a president to make decisions based on information which we may never see. And you know what, Bush is not that bad of a guy. The one who scares me is Ascroft. But that is another topic.
My only disagreement with Bush is they should publicly try those people they have. I do not like these military tribunals which are held in secret, where they do not disclose who is being charged with what, and executions are carried out without a whisper. I wonder if they had 100 terrorists who were guilty if there would be a temptation to throw in 1 unwanted radical? At the very least, they should release the transcripts, that way they can remove any sensitive information and still give the public an accurate idea of who these guys we have in custody are and what they did.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Personally, I think Clinton was a much, much, much better president than Bush. Frankly I don't care what Clinton did in the bedroom, he just seemed much more capable.
I for one, do care that I am being lied to. I care that the truth is being stretched to develop hate for a race of people so its easier on our conscience when we bomb them.
Subject: Re: War is Over
And I suppose you have proof to back up the claims we're being lied to and the truth is being stretched? You don't think the American government has access to just a little more information than you might?
Clinton? Terrible president. Wishy-washy, not trustable at all. He lied to us many times. And if he can lie about something as trivial as his bedroom antics in this day and age, what major things did he lie about? Once a liar, always a liar. What about his backpedaling on gays in the military, from saying he will get them in there fine, to making it simply "Don't ask, don't tell". They could STILL be dishonorably discharged if they DID tell, though, huh? So, he didn't really help them, just prevented the question from being asked initially.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
Personally, I think Clinton was a much, much, much better president than Bush. Frankly I don't care what Clinton did in the bedroom, he just seemed much more capable.
I for one, do care that I am being lied to. I care that the truth is being stretched to develop hate for a race of people so its easier on our conscience when we bomb them.
End Quote
I don't see how you could think Clinton was better, espescially if you are worried about being lied to, but to each his own.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Considering none of us are privy to the sensitive, and thus most important information, then ALL of our opinions are lacking with respect to who is/was the best President and the correctness of their decisions.
And, BeatGen, It's ironic that you seem a victim of exactly that "spoon feeding" which you complain about. Clinton is viewed by his followers as a good President because his regime was "peaceful and prosperous" - basically, he was affable and went to great lengths to project that image to the American people. Unfortunately, in being affable, he chose NOT to keep up with foreign problems that were "messy" and could somehow hurt "his" image. I think that means he shirked his responsibility to lead in favor of personal and partisan popularity.
That great saying, recently recalled in the spiderman movie, fits here perfectly.
"With great power comes great responsibility"
the responsibility to the people who give you the power - to defend both them and their way of life.
I wish that just once I'd see a liberal back a bold, forceful, and logical political decision. While I'm not particularly left or right, I at least can usually find logical discussion with right wingers. ALL left wing debates go pretty much like.....
Liberal - we shouldn't do (proposed action)
Cons. - well what should we do then
Liberal - well we could do (action)
Cons. - that wouldn't work because of (facts)
Liberal - well, uh, maybe we could do (actions)
Cons - that wouldn't work either because of (more facts)
Liberal - well.....I still think we shouldn't do this
(repeat ad infinitum)
C'mon, no used to be scared, those little facts are cute, go ahead and play with 'em.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Welcome to the board ayhab, points well made. 8)
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
We are just taking what is being fed to us by the American government. We are letting ourselves hate people we don't even know because we are being told that they are horrible people. End Quote
More particularly, and more insidiously, we allowing ourselves to hate and demonize specific individuals. Last year it was Osama, this year it's Saddam. Lop off their heads and peace will rule the planets and love will rule the stars. Of course, you've got to catch them first...
Quoting:
I'm sorry, but I am so annoyed with the state of affairs in the world at the moment and that we are just accepting what is being served to us.End Quote
Speak for yourself, pard. http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool014.gif I'm under the impression that American public support for this whole Iraqi venture is tissue thin. Accept but verify.
Quoting: We need to fight the real enemy. Yes, fight terrorism, but don't associate terrorism with a whole race of people.End Quote
How do you expect us to maintain focus long enough to catch and bring to justice the nominal head of the terrorist network? At least we chased him out of Afghanistan.... Didn't we?
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/waffen/waffen020.gif
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
More particularly, and more insidiously, we allowing ourselves to hate and demonize specific individuals. Last year it was Osama, this year it's Saddam. Lop off their heads and peace will rule the planets and love will rule the stars. Of course, you've got to catch them first...
End Quote
Chances are they'd sacrifice all their subjects and civilian peeps before giving themselves up. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but like some have said, not all Iraqis are bad.
Quoting:
Speak for yourself, pard. http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool014.gif I'm under the impression that American public support for this whole Iraqi venture is tissue thin. Accept but verify.End Quote
We'll see. About half the country wants to bomb the bejeezus out of Baghdad while the other half is content on twiddling their thumbs and waiting to see what happens next.
Quoting:
How do you expect us to maintain focus long enough to catch and bring to justice the nominal head of the terrorist network? At least we chased him out of Afghanistan.... Didn't we?
http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/waffen/waffen020.gif
End Quote
Who knows, he could be an android and utterly indestructible :P But if Al Qaeda can still be funded and suicide bombers are still littering the streets of Israel with flaming carrion, or trying to cross into America and blow up, say, Boston, then I guess the government sorta has to do something about it. Wouldn't you agree?
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
Who knows, he could be an android and utterly indestructible :P End Quote
Isn't it the job of our intelligence agencies to know things like this?
Quoting:But if Al Qaeda can still be funded and suicide bombers are still littering the streets of Israel with flaming carrion, or trying to cross into America and blow up, say, Boston, then I guess the government sorta has to do something about it. Wouldn't you agree?
End Quote
Wouldn't you agree that there's a difference between effective action and ineffective action? Besides, Arafat has gone to great lengths to distance the Palestinians from Al Qaeda, so I don't think there's a link between the Israeli suicide bombers and Al Qaeda.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
Isn't it the job of our intelligence agencies to know things like this? End Quote
Maybe they do already, and just haven't told you ;)
Quoting:
Wouldn't you agree that there's a difference between effective action and ineffective action? Besides, Arafat has gone to great lengths to distance the Palestinians from Al Qaeda, so I don't think there's a link between the Israeli suicide bombers and Al Qaeda.
End Quote
There's also a difference between action and inaction. Methinks the US actually vetoed a UN bill to let Israel continue to bully Arafat over the weekend. But terrorists are terrorists, they should be taken out. Interesting how the powers-that-be decided to plop the Jews in between all these Jew-hating nations... ::)
Subject: Re: War is Over
In war-time, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies -- Winston Churchill
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
In war-time, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies -- Winston Churchill
End Quote
Nice quote. Do you think the average American is going to be able to handle the "truth" if it comes out, and use this "truth" to determine wiser courses of action? I, for one, observe that 90% of the people around me did not handle the anthrax scare last year too well, despite the fact that it "only" killed less than 20 people, if that. Someone check my numbers. People as a whole, as a mob mentality are PETRIFIED of the truth. That's why they entrust the government to keep it safe for them, and to protect them. I challenge you to find a better way that will prevent people from running around like chickens with their heads chopped off.
Who invented that metaphor, anyway? It seems without a brain, chickens shouldn't be able to run around...maybe it's some "residual neuronic impulse" that's making them do that.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
Nice quote. Do you think the average American is going to be able to handle the "truth" if it comes out, and use this "truth" to determine wiser courses of action?
End Quote
I think the quote was referring to misdirection, Earl. Before the D-Day invasion in WWII, for example, there were a number of elaborate diversionary ruses to disguise the real invasion objective. The truth, a Normandy invasion, was attended by her bodyguard of lies, indications that Caen or even Belgium were the real objectives.
I think it's difficult to accuse a government of lying to its people during war. They misdirect our, and our enemies, attention.
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:Who invented that metaphor, anyway? It seems without a brain, chickens shouldn't be able to run around...maybe it's some "residual neuronic impulse" that's making them do that.
End Quote
That must be what it is, cause it happens. Growing up, we had chickens, and one year "harvested" them. Chop, off with their heads, and them suckers would run out willy-nilly for up to a minute or so, bumping into things, in circles....
Subject: Re: War is Over
Quoting:
Nice quote. Do you think the average American is going to be able to handle the "truth" if it comes out, and use this "truth" to determine wiser courses of action? I, for one, observe that 90% of the people around me did not handle the anthrax scare last year too well, despite the fact that it "only" killed less than 20 people, if that.
End Quote
You are not saying that those facts which the government knows should not be released because they may scare people? I understand why some sensitive information is not released, such as knowing what some terrorist may do because releasing that info would let the terrorist know his circle has been compromised. But to not let the information out because you think people will cluck around like a bunch of chickens is wrong. I want to know everything which will not harm our ability to defend ourselves. And if it is sensitive information, they should release that too as soon as the reasons for classifying it are no longer present (ex- we catch the sob). Government hides information uneccesarily such as the nixon tapes where he used deroggetory words toward certain ethnicities. In the absence of truth you will find plent of people to fill in the gaps with misinformation. That is also an evil.