Quoting:
Actually, the more I think about, the more I start to get the I'll believe it when I see it feeling.  I could see Bore suddenly jumping back into the ring in a few months as a self-promotional stunt ie the numerous "retirements" of Michael Jordan.


End Quote

The wording of the article does leave Bore the option of running as an independent...oh my goodness, that would be hilarious!   ;D

Quoting:
I mean, who wants a tree stump for a president?
End Quote

Sure beats George!  ::) At least a tree stump wont rage war on a country!

Quoting:


Sure beats George!  ::) At least a tree stump wont rage war on a country!
End Quote

Maybe we will have to agree to disagree on this one because I voted for George and am glad we have him for a pres rather than Bill Clinton Jr.  At least if Gore had won, we wouldn't have to worry about who was under his desk. ;)

Quoting:
A reminder for Alec Baldwin...didn't you say you were going to move out of the country if Bush won?  I even offered to help you pack your bags!
End Quote

Can I help, too?  Can I, huh?? ;D

Quoting:
 A reminder for Alec Baldwin...didn't you say you were going to move out of the country if Bush won?  I even offered to help you pack your bags!
End Quote

As did Rosie O'Donnel.

Quoting:


Sure beats George!  ::) At least a tree stump wont rage war on a country!
End Quote

Well, the "tree stump" would have just pulled out the national checkbook and paid off Saddam, much like Clinton did to numerous countries.  

It is refreshing to know we have a pres who isn't a push-over and who will actually take care of the problem, rather than taking the liberal method and just sitting back and doing nothing allowing the problem to simply escalate.

Quoting:


As did Rosie O'Donnel.
End Quote

I'd probably need a lot of people to help pack all her stuff....but I'd enjoy her leaving to ;)

Quoting:


Maybe we will have to agree to disagree on this one because I voted for George and am glad we have him for a pres rather than Bill Clinton Jr.  At least if Gore had won, we wouldn't have to worry about who was under his desk. ;)
End Quote

Well said, Dagwood. IMO though, Bill was pretty dumb, not to mention setting quite a horrible example of a President....but beware....if Hillary ever runs and wins I will be the one to flee the country....then Baldwin, O'Donell and all the other liberal slime can move back...just like rats returning to the condemmed building ::)

Quoting:

Well said, Dagwood. IMO though, Bill was pretty dumb, not to mention setting quite a horrible example of a President....but beware....if Hillary ever runs and wins I will be the one to flee the country....then Baldwin, O'Donell and all the other liberal slime can move back...just like rats returning to the condemmed building ::)
End Quote

Can I come with you?  We could start a safe house in another country...a place where we could all hide.

Quoting:
What is wrong with you people?  George W. Bush is the biggest idiot to ever be President.  The war is all about oil..... you know, money!!!!!!!!!!!!  Don't any of you read the newspaper????????  This war is a scam, a way to get re-elected.  I don't know how Gore would have done as President but I do know it would have been better than the piece of crap we have now.  He does not know his right foot from his left foot.  SAD!!!!!!

Lainey
End Quote

Don't you read the paper? we were attacked, you know, sept 11?  You believe the liberal media's portrayal of our president as an idiot. Fine.  You know what would have happened if Gore was president? Bigger government, more taxes, less freedom.  it is not about oil, and even if it was, so what? What gets me to work and school? thats right, OIL. Iraq broke the rules along time ago and we should have been at war with them then.

Quoting:
What is wrong with you people?  George W. Bush is the biggest idiot to ever be President.  The war is all about oil..... you know, money!!!!!!!!!!!!  Don't any of you read the newspaper????????  This war is a scam, a way to get re-elected.  I don't know how Gore would have done as President but I do know it would have been better than the piece of crap we have now.  He does not know his right foot from his left foot.  SAD!!!!!!

Lainey
End Quote

I agree with Screwball up there.  We were attacked.  We are still under attack, with threats coming from Iraq and North Korea seemingly every day.  And oil is a very big issue.  Liberals don't want us going to war over oil, and they don't want us drilling in Alaska for oil, they don't want us digging holes in the ocean for oil, so what the heck are we supposed to do for fuel then, seeing as the whole foundation of our transportation system is (surely you jest!) oil?  Tell me you can live without oil, and then maybe your little tirade will be justified.

Quoting:


Can I come with you?  We could start a safe house in another country...a place where we could all hide.
End Quote

That's fine with me, Dagwood... ;)

Quoting:
http://www.amiright.com/parody/80s/hueylewisandthenews5.shtml

Bad timing on my part ::)  But we'll see...we'll see.
End Quote

That's great, RiceCube ;D

Quoting:
Liberals don't want us going to war over oil, and they don't want us drilling in Alaska for oil, they don't want us digging holes in the ocean for oil, so what the heck are we supposed to do for fuel then...End Quote

Liberals are living in a fantasy world were everyone gets along and holds hands, where there is no need for oil, where there are no problems and everyone has everything.  

Well guess what liberals, thats not the way it is.  

Liberals have no problem spouting their "its all about oil, lets get off foreign oil rhetoric, but when it comes to a solution and alternative, they have no answers or proposals.  Its easy to say we should get off oil, but as was said earlier, "the whole foundation of our transportation system is (surely you jest!) oil"(Rice Cube).

Quoting:

That's great, RiceCube ;D
End Quote

Thanks man ;D  It's too bad it's slightly outdated now :-/

Quoting:

Liberals are living in a fantasy world were everyone gets along and holds hands, where there is no need for oil, where there are no problems and everyone has everything.  

Well guess what liberals, thats not the way it is.  

End Quote

Oh my goodness, you just gave me a great idea for a parody ;D

How's this..."Living in a Fantasy World"--a parody of "Material Girl" by Madonna   :D  Someone PM me later so that I don't forget this, oh HO HO!!

Hey, and vote for my parodies too!  Your vote counts and is appreciated!

And don't forget to vote in 2004 either ;)

Quoting:


Oh my goodness, you just gave me a great idea for a parody ;D

How's this..."Living in a Fantasy World"--a parody of "Material Girl" by Madonna   :D  Someone PM me later so that I don't forget this, oh HO HO!!

Hey, and vote for my parodies too!  Your vote counts and is appreciated!

And don't forget to vote in 2004 either ;)
End Quote

YES!  And the tune fits.

I want it on my desk by the end of the day!

Quoting:


Thanks man ;D  It's too bad it's slightly outdated now :-/
End Quote

Maybe, but It still made me smile!

Quoting:
http://www.amiright.com/parody/80s/hueylewisandthenews5.shtml

Bad timing on my part ::)  But we'll see...we'll see.
End Quote

I thought your parody was great. I usually don't vote, but I voted for this one.

Quoting:


I thought your parody was great. I usually don't vote, but I voted for this one.
End Quote

Thanks man, I appreciate it ;D

I'm doing another one for 80s up there..."Living in a Fantasy World" --> from "Material Girl" by Madonna, should be up tomorrow

Just posting this repeatedly so I remember to do it ;D

Naturally, an anti-liberal parody would not garner too many good votes ::)

Quoting:
I might get things thrown at me for saying this but, I wish he'd run so Bush could win again....and speaking of that last election...they didn't bother to say how many overseas votes for Bush were not allowed and were destroyed.  A reminder for Alec Baldwin...didn't you say you were going to move out of the country if Bush won?  I even offered to help you pack your bags!
End Quote

does it really matter? everyone could elect alf as president and it still would not change the fact that i drive a piece of shit car. as for bombing iraq, i am for anything which will lower the price i pay for gas. those damn arabs are killing us in the wallet. i remember when gas was under a dollar a gallon. and then i hear that one of the saudi princesses paid thousands of dollars to the terrorists. i guess i am just fed up with politics. i want a president that will help us all live better. fight big buisnesses which wastes the pensions of 100,000 of thousands of people like enron or world com or arthur anderson. everything has become special interest and who cotributes to candidates. how about for once we get someone who will fight for the working american? i want joe blow the working stiff to get elected.

sorry about the rant. i am just sick politics.

Quoting:


does it really matter? everyone could elect alf as president and it still would not change the fact that i drive a piece of shit car. as for bombing iraq, i am for anything which will lower the price i pay for gas. those damn arabs are killing us in the wallet. i remember when gas was under a dollar a gallon. and then i hear that one of the saudi princesses paid thousands of dollars to the terrorists. i guess i am just fed up with politics. i want a president that will help us all live better. fight big buisnesses which wastes the pensions of 100,000 of thousands of people like enron or world com or arthur anderson. everything has become special interest and who cotributes to candidates. how about for once we get someone who will fight for the working american? i want joe blow the working stiff to get elected.

sorry about the rant. i am just sick politics.
End Quote

Please don't apologize for saying what you feel...I am glad we all can have our opinions here.  I'm just sick of the liberals in Hollyweird and the media always hushing stuff up when it comes to...according to them.....one of our very best presidents...Clinton??  NOT...with his setting free all the criminals at the end of his Legacy! >:(

Quoting:
Is there any evil in their world liberals aren't defending or responsible for?  At least you won't find a liberal with a gram of self respect proudly calling themself a "dittohead"
End Quote

LOL!!! Yeah, Limbaugh scares me. I could see him and G Gordon Liddy running on a ticket. Personally, I would like to see some civility return to politics. Perhaps if we could get people where the job is more important than the prestege the individual recieves, then we would have people doing the right thing for the right reasons, not so they can get more funding.

Quoting:


LOL!!! Yeah, Limbaugh scares me. I could see him and G Gordon Liddy running on a ticket. Personally, I would like to see some civility return to politics. Perhaps if we could get people where the job is more important than the prestege the individual recieves, then we would have people doing the right thing for the right reasons, not so they can get more funding.
End Quote

Amen!  Think they'll ever pass those campaign finance reform bill thingies?  :)

Quoting:
Is there any evil in their world liberals aren't defending or responsible for?  At least you won't find a liberal with a gram of self respect proudly calling themself a "dittohead"
End Quote

Rush Limbaugh does do a good job of exposing the dems for what they truly are.

Quoting:


Rush Limbaugh does do a good job of exposing the dems for what they truly are.
End Quote

I used to enjoy his show, but then he started to annoy me.  I think Michael Savage has a better show, but maybe it's because I'm in Northern California and I'm biased (even though he's nationally syndicated now).

Quoting:


I used to enjoy his show, but then he started to annoy me.  I think Michael Savage has a better show, but maybe it's because I'm in Northern California and I'm biased (even though he's nationally syndicated now).
End Quote

I can't listen to Savage because the stations here do not air him.  Were still in the dark ages (We just got Sean Hanity last week). Neal Boortz is pretty good, but I can't listen because I have to be at work during his time slot.

Quoting:


I think Michael Savage has a better show, but maybe it's because I'm in Northern California and I'm biased (even though he's nationally syndicated now).
End Quote

I agree, Savage has a much better show than Limbaugh.  Tonight they were coming up with new names for Sean "Hanoi Jane" Penn.  My favorite was  Osama Penn Laden.

Quoting:


I agree, Savage has a much better show than Limbaugh.  Tonight they were coming up with new names for Sean "Hanoi Jane" Penn.  My favorite was  Osama Penn Laden.
End Quote

wait a minute, I heard that this morning.

Quoting:
At least you won't find a liberal with a gram of self respect proudly calling themself a "dittohead"
End Quote

Believe it or not Steve, not all Conservatives listen to Limbaugh.

Quoting:


I agree, Savage has a much better show than Limbaugh.  Tonight they were coming up with new names for Sean "Hanoi Jane" Penn.  My favorite was  Osama Penn Laden.
End Quote

I prefer Penn-Addict Arnold.  ;D

But John up there did make a really good point that there is some need for campaign finance reform, at the very least.  Consider that a House Rep has only a two year term...I'll bet that Rep uses about 2/3 of his/her term raising money and campaigning rather than doing his/her job.  Unfortunately I see no way of eliminating this aspect of politics.

Quoting:
or, we could stregthen slander and libal laws for candidates so when they accuse the other of some wrong doing they have to have proof. it is depressing to have two candidates completely destroy each others intellect/character/ability.
End Quote

Great idea...in theory anyway.

Quoting:


Believe it or not Steve, not all Conservatives listen to Limbaugh.
End Quote

Nope, they don't.  I am a Conservative and Rush annoys the heck out of me.   :-X

Quoting:


Nope, they don't.  I am a Conservative and Rush annoys the heck out of me.   :-X
End Quote

Okay, if Dagwood says it I'll believe you http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool030.gif

Maybe now someone can tell me how the liberal dominated airwaves became so infested with conservative commentators?

Quoting:


Okay, if Dagwood says it I'll believe you http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool030.gif

Maybe now someone can tell me how the liberal dominated airwaves became so infested with conservative commentators?
End Quote

Because the ratings are high.  No one really wants to listen to liberal shows.  Look at the ratings for Hardball and Donahue on MSNBC.  They're in the toilet.  Now look at the ratings for Rush *UGH* and Savage.  Through the roof.  In fact, Savage has the fastest growing radio show in the nation.  Why?  Because what conservatives say actually makes sense.  AND they know how to entertain.

Quoting:
Why would anyone hire Donahue?  He was good twenty years ago.  I heard MSNBC is talking with Jesse Ventura about a possible show.


End Quote

Now that is something I would watch. :D

Quoting:


Don't you read the paper? we were attacked, you know, sept 11?  You believe the liberal media's portrayal of our president as an idiot. Fine.  You know what would have happened if Gore was president? Bigger government, more taxes, less freedom.  it is not about oil, and even if it was, so what? What gets me to work and school? thats right, OIL. Iraq broke the rules along time ago and we should have been at war with them then.
End Quote

Quoting:
Also you mentioned less freedom.........what the hell are you talking about?  Ashcroft has taken many freedoms away from us.  
End Quote

Oh boy, another liberal complaining about "lost freedoms".

Ok, since Ashcroft has "taken many freedoms away" from you, I challenge you to name 3.  Make sure they're good ones, because so far I have never seen/heard a liberal who has been able to do it.

Quoting:
Oh, and about your precious oil, believe it or not there are alternatives. End Quote

interesting to know that you have some "inside information" that nobody else is aware of.  

And yes, there are the ridiculous hybrid cars, but even they use oil.  So unless you can use your "inside info" to invent an alternative to oil...

Quoting:


Oh boy, another liberal complaining about "lost freedoms".

Ok, since Ashcroft has "taken many freedoms away" from you, I challenge you to name 3.  Make sure they're good ones, because so far I have never seen/heard a liberal who has been able to do it.



interesting to know that you have some "inside information" that nobody else is aware of.  

And yes, there are the ridiculous hybrid cars, but even they use oil.  So unless you can use your "inside info" to invent an alternative to oil...


End Quote

Quoting:
After 9/11 was Iraq ever mentioned?  End Quote

Well lets see, in March we found out Saddam was/is paying up to $25000 to the families of terrorist suicide bombers to "thank them for their service", we then found out he has been doing it since 2000.  Further proof that Iraq poses a major threat in the war against terrorism.  What part of that don't you liberals understand?

Quoting:Oh, and is calling me a liberal suppose to be an insult

End Quote

actually no, but if you are insulted by being called a liberal, then thats not saying much for liberalism!

Quoting:
Before I answer your questions, you must answer mine.  After 9/11 was Iraq ever mentioned?  Oh, and is calling me a liberal suppose to be an insult

End Quote

Yes, is it.  Don't let it offend you though, it's just a indication of the level of the rhetoric.  And remember, most of the people you're arguing with in here are young and inexperienced; they were weaned on Rush Limbaugh and consider O'Reilly a serious investigative reporter.  If Rush didn't preach it it doesn't have any value. Rush has made a lot of money using the term "liberal" as an insult.  

Young, male, received a political education from television -- do you honestly expect them to think for themselves, or to refrain from dropping the L stinkbomb whenever they get a chance?

Quoting:


Yes, is it.  Don't let it offend you though, it's just a indication of the level of the rhetoric.  And remember, most of the people you're arguing with in here are young and inexperienced; they were weaned on Rush Limbaugh and consider O'Reilly a serious investigative reporter.  If Rush didn't preach it it doesn't have any value. Rush has made a lot of money using the term "liberal" as an insult.  

Young, male, received a political education from television -- do you honestly expect them to think for themselves, or to refrain from dropping the L stinkbomb whenever they get a chance?

End Quote

Making someone feel better by insulting everyone here with an opinion?  Well sorry if I am two young to understand politics  ::).  

Quoting:
No need to apologize, Screwball.  My observation was directed only at those who use the term "liberal" as a slur... :)
End Quote

I am guilty of that myself sometimes.  :)

Quoting:


And yes, there are the ridiculous hybrid cars, but even they use oil.  So unless you can use your "inside info" to invent an alternative to oil...


End Quote

They did a study in Popular Science and found that if the place you charge your car gets its power from an coal or oil source then it creates just as much polution as a normal car.  I am just tired of all those actors saying they have an enviromentally friendly car, when in reality it just as unfriendly as a normal car (Unless they used hydro or a nuclear source, but wait their aginst that too).

Quoting:
I hadn't noticed  :)  By the way, Screwball I haven't had a chance to wish you happy holidays.  Merry Christmas and a happy new year  :)
End Quote

Happy holidays to You too Steve.  They are aproaching fast this year.

Quoting:
No need to apologize, Screwball.  My observation was directed only at those who use the term "liberal" as a slur... :)
End Quote

Not a slur ;)  Just an observation.

Quoting:
In the end, we should not forget we are Americans. I think openess is good, and one of the reasons polarized talk show hosts are bad is they divide us and dominate the conversation in a very negative light.  
End Quote

It's true, but I respect some of them because they back up their arguments with fact.  That's what you're supposed to do anyway ;)

And I'm proud to be an American :)  Go U-S-A!

By the way, is it me, or did people get a tad touchy this morning?  ::)

Quoting:
And remember, most of the people you're arguing with in here are young and inexperienced; they were weaned on Rush Limbaugh...If Rush didn't preach it it doesn't have any value. Rush has made a lot of money using the term "liberal" as an insult?

End Quote

Steve, again let me say, not all conservatives listen to Rush as you obviously think we do.  

I called her a liberal because in her post she referred to herself as a freakin liberal.  

She went from:

Quoting:Hey......you ask if us liberals read the paper.....well we do.End Quote

To:

Quoting:Oh, and is calling me a liberal suppose to be an insult
End Quote

Personally I think its hilarious to see a self-proclaimed liberal like her get so offended when called...a liberal!

Quoting:



Personally I think its hilarious to see a self-proclaimed liberal like her get so offended when called...a liberal!
End Quote

That is funny  :)

Quoting:


Steve, again let me say, not all conservatives listen to Rush as you obviously think we do.  

End Quote

Darn straight.  Rush annoys me to no end.  I thought we said this a couple pages ago.

Quoting:


I thought we said this a couple pages ago.
End Quote

we did, but I guess Steve must have missed it so I was pointing it out to him.

Quoting:


Damn straight.  Rush annoys me to no end.  I thought we said this a couple pages ago.
End Quote

I know I said it on the last page.

Quoting:


Oh boy, another liberal complaining about "lost freedoms".

Ok, since Ashcroft has "taken many freedoms away" from you, I challenge you to name 3.  Make sure they're good ones, because so far I have never seen/heard a liberal who has been able to do it.



interesting to know that you have some "inside information" that nobody else is aware of.  

And yes, there are the ridiculous hybrid cars, but even they use oil.  So unless you can use your "inside info" to invent an alternative to oil...


End Quote

Quoting:
I suggest you read the so called "Patriot" Act if you want to see the freedoms that Ashcroft and company have taken and or suspended for the duration of the war on terrorism. End Quote

 

You proved my point, you can't actually name any freedoms you claim to have lost.  Yes the Patriot Act increases surveilence, but you haven't lost any freedoms because of it.  

Quoting:...can we be honest we are a country that was founded by terrorists...End Quote

wow, our Founding Fathers were terrorists?  I'm at a loss of words on that one.  Thats possibly the most ridiculous statement I've ever read.

Quoting:...why is it we have such a problem with people using violent means to oppose what they view as an unjust government?  End Quote

We're not at war simply because a group of people oppose our government, its because those people killed 1000's of our citizens and have vowed to do it again.

Quoting:...we are currently engaged in a "war" with no clear objectives or end in sight...
End Quote

...if only it were that easy to just suddenly iradicate terrorism.  It takes time, and the administration made it clear it would take time to fight this war on terrorism.  Its not something that is over and done in a month or two.  I guess the administration forgot to arrange the war's time-frame with you.




And regarding an oil alternative, you said:

Quoting:...let me propose this thought for you to refute, new technology always pays off in the long run, in the development of new products and industries...End Quote

As true as that may be, it still doesn't solve anything now.  Liberals want us to get off oil now, but the development of a real and affective oil substitue is not in the immediate future.  Its so easy to say we need to lay off the oil, but unless there's an alternative readily available, its simply talk.  

Quoting:
You raise some good points, I still believe that the Patriot Act dose represent a step backwards, yes it does improve law enforcements ability to prosecute criminals, but if we sacrfice freedoms in order to defeat terrorists don't the terrorist win?  End Quote

Again, I ask you What freedoms have we lost???  You have failed to answer this question in your last 2 attempts.

Quoting:
and 80sRocked?  no need to stoop to name-calling, even if the guests do it ;)
End Quote

Who did I call a name?  

Quoting:


Who did I call a name?  
End Quote

I think it's just the throwing around of "liberal" and "conservative" that's making everyone on edge.  Lighten up, folks :)

As for the freedoms we've lost...I don't feel like anything's changed at all.  As long as I stay away from child porn and hacking into the Pentagon, I think the FBI is gonna leave me be.

Quoting:


I think it's just the throwing around of "liberal" and "conservative" that's making everyone on edge.  End Quote

oh geez, we covered this yesterday.  The lady called herself a liberal, so I referred to her as one. If one doesn't want to be called something, they shouldn't open up their thread by calling themselves that word!

I'm a conservative, and would be more than happy to be called one.  If real liberals are "on edge" by being called what they are, well thats just ridiculous.

Quoting:
oh, other lurker, I think I know who you are ;D  
End Quote

as do I, you would think that after all this time he would realize he's not fooling anyone.

Quoting:
Do you feel like you've lost any liberties?  I certainly don't.  End Quote

absolutely not.  I can't honestly think of any liberties/freedoms we have lost.  

Oh wait there is one, we can't take knives onto a plane.  Wow, the nerve of this government to keep us from taking weapons onto a plane!   ;D    

Obviously I was being sarcastic. ;)

Quoting:


absolutely not.  I can't honestly think of any liberties/freedoms we have lost.  

Oh wait there is one, we can't take knives onto a plane.  Wow, the nerve of this government to keep us from taking weapons onto a plane!   ;D    

Obviously I was being sarcastic. ;)
End Quote

Dammit!  NOW how am I supposed to eat my Salisbury Steak?  :P

I think they're freaking out about a possible "invasion of privacy"...but come on, they're doing it anyway, there's nothing you can do about it, just don't do illegal stuff :P

Quoting:


I think it's just the throwing around of "liberal" and "conservative" that's making everyone on edge.  Lighten up, folks :)

As for the freedoms we've lost...I don't feel like anything's changed at all.  As long as I stay away from child porn and hacking into the Pentagon, I think the FBI is gonna leave me be.
End Quote

She did call herself a liberal - either on purpose or inadvertently and left herself open to mock and ridicule, which... others seem more than happy to oblige. "It feels good to be 'right'. There is nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others." (Kevin Smith) ::)

I haven't read about any lost freedoms, but it's not something I worry about anyway since I'd still keep on living the way I do no matter what the govt. tells me to do 8)

Quoting:


She did call herself a liberal - either on purpose or inadvertently and left herself open to mock and ridicule, which... others seem more than happy to oblige. "It feels good to be 'right'. There is nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others." (Kevin Smith) ::)

I haven't read about any lost freedoms, but it's not something I worry about anyway since I'd still keep on living the way I do no matter what the govt. tells me to do 8)
End Quote

Werd up, your Majesty ;)  Don't let "big government" get you down.

Quoting:
She did call herself a liberal - either on purpose or inadvertently and left herself open to mock and ridicule, which... others seem more than happy to oblige. End Quote

no comment.  I'm done arguing this.

Quoting:I haven't read about any lost freedoms, but it's not something I worry about anyway since I'd still keep on living the way I do no matter what the govt. tells me to do 8)
End Quote

Same here.  I haven't nor do I plan to change any aspect of my daily life from fear of the feds breaking down my door.  Its crazy, to me, to live in constant paranoia and fear of the government, as some do.

Quoting:

Dammit!  NOW how am I supposed to eat my Salisbury Steak?  :PEnd Quote

Ha!,  I guess you'll have to settle with those airline-issued "sporks" to cut your steak.

Quoting:I think they're freaking out about a possible "invasion of privacy"...but come on, they're doing it anyway, there's nothing you can do about it, just don't do illegal stuff :P
End Quote

Very true.  And it brings up an interesting point.  Many people don't realize they have been "watched" or "tracked" probably all their lives.  Its not exactly a new thing.  

Examples:  
-for years, everytime you swipe your credit card, your spending habits have been recorded.
-For years, everytime you go the the ATM, not only are you on camera, but your transaction has been recorded.  
-For years, everytime you surf the internet, everything you do has been recorded by your provider and advertisers(those banner ads aren't there for nothing, do a trojan horse scan on your computer, you may be surprised).  
-For years, everytime you use your various "shoppers cards"(Kroger Plus Card, etc) in a grocery, your buying habits have been recorded.  
-For years, everytime you make a phone call, both cell phones and regular phones, all your calling habits (numbers/times) have been recorded.
-For years, everytime you get gas, walk through a store/mall/down the street, you have more than likely been on camera.

The list goes on and on and on...

And the thing is, its been happenening for decades, yet everyone is up in arms now, simply because its more publicized and now suddenly people think they have lost freedoms.

Quoting:
For instance, the ability of Federal agents to conduct warrentless searches and wiretaps will be broadened.  It's a fourth amendment issue.  
End Quote

you're right.  But as Rice Cube said:

Quoting:they're doing it anyway, there's nothing you can do about it, just don't do illegal stuff  End Quote

There's no point in sitting around and worrying about if "Big Brother" is listening in on your phone call to grandma.  Don't do things that would put you in jeopardy, and you have nothing to worry about.

I know Tarzan Boy(or whatever name he's using these days) will probably call me a Brown Coat again for feeling this way, but so be it.

Quoting:



you're right.  But as Rice Cube said:

There's no point in sitting around and worrying about if "Big Brother" is listening in on your phone call to grandma.  Don't do things that would put you in jeopardy, and you have nothing to worry about.

I know Tarzan Boy will probably call me a Brown Coat again for feeling this way, but so be it.
End Quote

Which raises the questions: How highly do you value your constitutional guarantee of privacy?  There's very much a point in worrying about the government listening in.  

Quoting:


Which raises the questions: How highly do you value your constitutional guarantee of privacy?  There's very much a point in worrying about the government listening in.  
End Quote

What is so wrong with what you're doing that you're afraid of the government listening in?  Are you smuggling illegal immigrants?  Are you conducting child porn symphonies?  I personally would sacrifice some of my liberties to make sure people who actually do this stuff get caught and put away.  I didnt' do anything wrong, why the hell should I care?  

By the way, Merry Xmas, FBI Agent Henry Smith (at least one of you is Henry Smith, I just know it)

Quoting:


What is so wrong with what you're doing that you're afraid of the government listening in?  Are you smuggling illegal immigrants?  End Quote

Dammit, Rice blew my cover.  OK I confess, I run the world's largest illegal alien smuggling ring out of my apartment.  NOT ;)

Anyway, I do agree with you on this Rice.

Quoting:


What is so wrong with what you're doing that you're afraid of the government listening in?  Are you smuggling illegal immigrants?  Are you conducting child porn symphonies?  I personally would sacrifice some of my liberties to make sure people who actually do this stuff get caught and put away.  I didnt' do anything wrong, why the hell should I care?  
End Quote

You're asking the wrong question, Earl.  The point is my contract, your contract, and every American's contract with this country is I will behave myself and pay my taxes and the government will respect my privacy.  
You assume that someone has something to hide, and that's the wrong assumption.  
You should care because the government is powerful, and it needs checks and reins.  For someone who is very capable of understanding all sides of an issue, I'm disappointed in this post.  

Quoting:
You're asking the wrong question, Earl.  The point is my contract, your contract, and every American's contract with this country is I will behave myself and pay my taxes and the government will respect my privacy.  
You assume that someone has something to hide, and that's the wrong assumption.  
You should care because the government is powerful, and it needs checks and reins.  For someone who is very capable of understanding all sides of an issue, I'm disappointed in this post.  
End Quote

And then what happens to those people, those "Americans," who DON'T adhere to this contract, who don't behave themselves?  THOSE are the ones I worry about.  I don't believe anyone is obligated to agree with me EVER.  But keep in mind that some of the terrorists of 9/11 had sat around in the good ol' US of A and Canada, learned how to fly planes under your very noses, and smashed up a couple of really big buildings because, for whatever reason, the government didn't catch their activities in time.

Quoting:


And then what happens to those people, those "Americans," who DON'T adhere to this contract, who don't behave themselves?  
End Quote

So, if we find a cell of terrorists with a Chinese connection you have no problem with Chinese immigrants' telephones being wiretapped without probable cause?  Or have this same group randomly stopped, detained, their possessions searched in the name of security?

Security demands payment, but you don't mortgage a right in the name of security.  "I'm not doing anything wrong so I don't care" is too facile and glib a reaction to be coming from you.

Quoting:

So, if we find a cell of terrorists with a Chinese connection you have no problem with Chinese immigrants' telephones being wiretapped without probable cause?  Or have this same group randomly stopped, detained, their possessions searched in the name of security?

Security demands payment, but you don't mortgage a right in the name of security.  "I'm not doing anything wrong so I don't care" is too facile and glib a reaction to be coming from you.
End Quote

Absolutely no problems.  They search me at the airports all the time anyway, apparently I'm some kind of "terrorist".  My friends and I even take odds on whether or not I would be searched in the security checkpoints.  I am innocent until proven guilty, and as of now, I have nothing to feel guilty about.  It's a minor inconvenience for me, nothing more.  I do it because in the long run, I'll feel safer.

As for racial profiling, they do that anyway, it's just not "overt".  ::) Most of the terrorists who have attacked the US of A, except for that yahoo McVeigh, are Muslim and/or of Middle-Eastern origin.  You can call it a coincidence, but the laws of statistics do not lie.

Sorry if I sound insensitive, you are not obligated to agree with me.  But if we're to be a stronger, better, safer nation, gotta let a few things go.

Quoting:


What is so wrong with what you're doing that you're afraid of the government listening in?  Are you smuggling illegal immigrants?  Are you conducting child porn symphonies?  I personally would sacrifice some of my liberties to make sure people who actually do this stuff get caught and put away.  I didnt' do anything wrong, why the hell should I care?  

End Quote

Here is where I dissagree.  Once you sacrifice a liberty to the government you will never get your liberty back.  This doesn't even just apply to national security. It applies to gun-control, auto laws (seatbelts, cell phones), alcohol, etc. in the words of Sebastian the crab, "You give them an inch, and they swim all over you".  I still believe that the Republicans are more interested in protecting our liberties than the Dems, and I am not saying that the current aministration has taken away any of my liberties, I just think that people should not be so eager to give thier liberties away.  Anyway, If these government agencies had done their job in the first place there would be no need to talk about lost liberties.      

Quoting:
Here is where I dissagree.  Once you sacrifice a liberty to the government you will never get your liberty back.  This doesn't even just apply to national security. It applies to gun-control, auto laws (seatbelts, cell phones), alcohol, etc. in the words of Sebastian the crab, "You give them an inch, and they swim all over you".  I still believe that the Republicans are more interested in protecting our liberties than the Dems, and I am not saying that the current aministration has taken away any of my liberties, I just think that people should not be so eager to give thier liberties away.  Anyway, If these government agencies had done their job in the first place there would be no need to talk about lost liberties.      
End Quote

Fair enough.  I don't want to get into a war of semantics though.  I'm not going to actively say, "Hey, look at me, spy on me!" but I would like to think that the FBI agent who's scouring this board right now is doing it for the right reasons ;)

This thread was about Al Bore, how the heck did we end up on this?  ???

Quoting:

This thread was about Al Bore, how the heck did we end up on this?  ???
End Quote

because some of us feel that Al's party wants to take away are rights, and feel that is a reason not to vote for him. The other side feels it validates his party by stating "see Bush is taking away your rights too"

Quoting:


because some of us feel that Al's party wants to take away are rights, and feel that is a reason not to vote for him. The other side feels it validates his party by stating "see Bush is taking away your rights too"
End Quote

Right.  I apologize for my earlier "attack on freedom," but I am actually willing to sacrifice some privacy so the government can track terrorism better.  I don't feel that this sacrifice will infringe on any of my other rights.  Perhaps someone with more legal expertise than I should talk about this.  I think I'm through.

Unless someone better turns up, I'm re-electing Bush.  He has done no wrong.

Quoting:

Unless someone better turns up, I'm re-electing Bush.  He has done no wrong.
End Quote

I agree with that. I am already annoyed at John F Kerry with his "No new tax cuts" proposal (what he really means is bye-bye Bush's tax cut, which means you won't get back money you were already promissed).

Quoting:
For all the folks out there who aren't doing anything wrong and can't understand the rest of our concern with privacy:  

How's about posting your names and addresses on this thread, and prove you mean what you say?
End Quote

My e-mail is hidden when I sign on, but when I'm lurking it is posted.  You can use it to dredge up information on me.  As long as you don't mail-bomb me or send me Anthrax in a vanity spritzer I'll be cool with it.

By the way, I posted my website on another thread.  If you want to use that to dig up dirt on me, go for it.  I haven't moved in 8 years.  

Okay, I thought a little bit about this...and there's something bugging me about your method of "proof," Steve.  Uncle Sam already knows my address.  He knows what I look like, my fingerprints, my vitals, my blood type, the fact that I have a cataract in one eye and that I've crashed some cars around.  The reason I'm not posting my address outright is because I am going to prevent telemarketers from having an easier time of finding me and bugging the crap out of me during dinner, NOT because I have anything really to hide.

Quoting:
Nobody said anything about the government.  You said your privacy wasn't important because "I'm not doing anything wrong."   If innocence gives immunity, I assume you'd have no troubles sharing with this community.   :)
End Quote

I've already given you several avenues of finding my address.  If you want I can private message you and then you can post it to "invade my privacy".  :)

Quoting:


I've already given you several avenues of finding my address.  If you want I can private message you and then you can post it to "invade my privacy".  :)
End Quote

Are you saying you don't trust this community enough to share your name and address with it?  I'm not asking that you let it listen to your phone conversations, or go through your personal belongings.  Not even asking for you to give us your drivers license number... just real name and address.  

Quoting:

Are you saying you don't trust this community enough to share your name and address with it?  I'm not asking that you let it listen to your phone conversations, or go through your personal belongings.  Not even asking for you to give us your drivers license number... just real name and address.  
End Quote

I trust them to be resourceful enough to find it, through the avenues I have posted and described numerous times (gawd you're stubborn) ;)  I know I'd be able to hunt you down if I really wanted to.

Y'all can find it too.  Don't let me down, I gots a lot of faith riding on you ;)

Quoting:
I'm not asking you to do anything.  I'm asking if you're willing to disclose information about yourself, and, wisely, you're not.  

We have a right to privacy, and I wouldn't violate yours or anybody's.  Where we differ is in our valuation of the right of privacy guaranteed us in the fourth amendment.    
End Quote

I'll disclose my information to the right people and the right people only.  i.e. not terrorists, not telemarketers, not Sally Struthers, and not televangelists ;)  Though those people, like the government, probably have it already, so what do I have left to disclose?  ::)

Please, let's move on.

Quoting:


You're asking the wrong question, Earl.  The point is my contract, your contract, and every American's contract with this country is I will behave myself and pay my taxes and the government will respect my privacy.  
You assume that someone has something to hide, and that's the wrong assumption.  
You should care because the government is powerful, and it needs checks and reins.  For someone who is very capable of understanding all sides of an issue, I'm disappointed in this post.  
End Quote

Are we talking about the Social Contract? I remember something Rossoue said, "Man is born free, yet everywhere he is in chains."

If we are to be free, we must have an open government which does not lie to us or have trials in secret. Government can not be beyond public scrutiny. As for the issue of how much privace individuals have, that changes all the time. I personally believe we should be able to have privacy, and I do not like all the data that companys keep on me. Do you know how much junk mail I get from credit card companies alone? And some of them have personal data on the offer letters.

I think what America needs is freedom. That is what we are. We need checks and balances. I will end with one other quote: "power leads to corruption and absolute power leads to absolute corruption." Leaders have known to do horrible things for some great end. I do not want to live in India or have Hitler rule me. I want to be free.

Quoting:
I think what America needs is freedom. That is what we are. We need checks and balances. I will end with one other quote: "power leads to corruption and absolute power leads to absolute corruption." Leaders have known to do horrible things for some great end. I do not want to live in India or have Hitler rule me. I want to be free.
End Quote

I agree, and you've said what I was trying to say (albeit in a politer, less confrontational manner.)  It's the Government that needs it powers checked, not the individual.  Not because the Government is evil, but because the individual is powerless against it.  

Quoting:


I'll disclose my information to the right people and the right people only.  i.e. not terrorists, not telemarketers, not Sally Struthers, and not televangelists ;)  Though those people, like the government, probably have it already, so what do I have left to disclose?  ::)

Please, let's move on.
End Quote

I'm trying, Earl... http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool030.gif

But every time I add my coda you add your coda.... so, okay, let's move on....
By the way, what you got against Sally Struthers?

Quoting:
Er... can I put in a late vote as another conservative who can't stand Rush Limbaugh? I've hated him ever since he tried to pay big money to get his hands on that poor lobster... ::)
End Quote

You sure can http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool007.gif
I'm the only one prohibited from mentioning Rush or using the term "dittohead" on this thread  :)

Quoting:
Er... can I put in a late vote as another conservative who can't stand Rush Limbaugh? I've hated him ever since he tried to pay big money to get his hands on that poor lobster... ::)
End Quote

What happened with the lobster? I never heard this story. Did he cook it on his show and eat it? Or could he not wait for it to cook and started chomping away while it was still alive?

Quoting:
I don't remember all the details, but some animal rights people were trying to save this very old lobster that had been in an aquarium at an eatery for years. They were going to pay a large sum of money to buy it and liberate it. Rush tried to outbid them on it, offering a larger sum of money so he could have it killed and cooked for his dinner... >:(
End Quote

Okay...sorry to be so "insensitive" again...but...

IT'S A F**KING LOBSTER, FOR THE LOVE OF ()*#@&!!!  

Carry on.

Quoting:


Okay...sorry to be so "insensitive" again...but...

IT'S A F**KING LOBSTER, FOR THE LOVE OF ()*#@&!!!  

Carry on.
End Quote

Quoting:
Rush is an a$$hole, most of us can agree.

End Quote

Which doesn't change the fact that it's still a lobster! That Rush made an issue of it doesn't change the underlying fact that there are much more important things than a tasty shellfish for people to get worked up over. Take that money and buy a poor family some food for crying out loud!! (And before someone chimes in with "So should Rush!", that is also correct.)

BTW, if anyone wants an alternative to Rush, I suggest listening to Ken Hamblin. I stumbled onto his show on a low power AM station about 3 years ago, and have tuned in as much as possible since then.

Quoting:


Which doesn't change the fact that it's still a lobster! That Rush made an issue of it doesn't change the underlying fact that there are much more important things than a tasty shellfish for people to get worked up over. Take that money and buy a poor family some food for crying out loud!! (And before someone chimes in with "So should Rush!", that is also correct.)

BTW, if anyone wants an alternative to Rush, I suggest listening to Ken Hamblin. I stumbled onto his show on a low power AM station about 3 years ago, and have tuned in as much as possible since then.
End Quote

Quoting:
Yes, but we all like to "feel good" for not always the best reasons sometimes. Silly to spend money to set a stupid lobster free but isn't simply mean to spend to much money on the same item just to make people angry?  The only "lesson" he wanted to teach and actually taught, was that he's a jerk.


End Quote

Oh, I know!! You think I'm going to disagree with you!! Well, nope, he is a jerk, and, as I thought I made clear, he was just as wrong as the first party, but relativism aside, it's still idiotic to put so much effort into trying to "save" a lobster.

Quoting:


Oh, I know!! You think I'm going to disagree with you!! Well, nope, he is a jerk, and, as I thought I made clear, he was just as wrong as the first party, but relativism aside, it's still idiotic to put so much effort into trying to "save" a lobster.
End Quote

Thank you for seeing it in that light.  Trust me, if I see a huge lobster in a tank in a restaurant, I'm not going to say, "oooh, it's so old and majestic, let's not eat it," I'm going to dig into it like it's my last meal.  Lobster is goooooooooood...

Quoting:


No thanks. Rush Limbaugh is plenty enough for good laughs 8)
End Quote

How about G Gordon Liddy? He was on CNN two weeks ago, and you would not believe some of the ideas this man has about society. He kinda makes Limbaugh look like a big soft teddy bear. LOL!

Quoting:

How about G Gordon Liddy? He was on CNN two weeks ago, and you would not believe some of the ideas this man has about society. He kinda makes Limbaugh look like a big soft teddy bear. LOL!
End Quote

I like him better than Rush.  Better laughs.

Quoting:
Again... how are these beacons of Truth and Light able to squeeze onto the liberal dominated airwaves?  http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/cool/cool030.gif
End Quote

I don't claim to be an economics whiz, but I do believe that the laws of supply and demand apply here.  You see, there is a demand for differing viewpoints from what liberals tend to think is the "truth"...so that's why radio stations pop up to supply this "Truth and Light" you speak of.

Seriously, I thought we talked about this like last week.  

And for the last time, not everyone listens to Rush.  Rush may be a f**king @$$hole for doing his lobster stunt, but once again, it was a damned lobster for crying out loud.  If you're going to save an animal, save a blue whale.  (*&#$ the lobster, lobster's my food.

Quoting:


I don't claim to be an economics whiz, but I do believe that the laws of supply and demand apply here.  You see, there is a demand for differing viewpoints from what liberals tend to think is the "truth"...so that's why radio stations pop up to supply this "Truth and Light" you speak of.

Seriously, I thought we talked about this like last week.  
End Quote

Just calling to your attention the inherent contradictions of your position.
1- Whether you admit it or no, Savage, Liddy, That Person, et al, are part of the media.  Quit blaming liberal bias for ills that befall conservative causes and politicians. If a conservative politician puts his foot in his mouth and his conservative colleagues turn on him, don't tell us he was hounded out of office by the liberal media.
2- Even if we accept the supply and demand model, and accept liberal dominance, the logical conclusion is that the liberal view is winning the market battle because their presentation of the news is preferable to the alternative.  That's using your argument, not mine.

Quoting:


2- Even if we accept the supply and demand model, and accept liberal dominance, the logical conclusion is that the liberal view is winning the market battle because their presentation of the news is preferable to the alternative.  That's using your argument, not mine.
End Quote

This arguement doesn't hold water because the most popular news channel is Fox News, and they do not present the news in a "liberal view".