Quoting:
Development of a spiritual belief system or a religion is an attempt to bring order to a chaotic universe and a sense of meaning to our existence. Humanity is an ordered society (even if it doesn't appear to be at times), and the human condition cannot bear disorder and meaninglessness. This is why we seek to find the answers to why the universe was created and what our purpose within it may be. The conception of a supreme being or entity gives us the order we crave. It gives us an answer to how and to who. We don't need a why. Why was everything created? (Insert name of Great Spirit here) chose it to be.
Being a completely godless person, however, I believe that there are things about the world, ourselves and the universe that humanity was not meant to understand. Why was the universe created? We don't know. What is the meaning of life? Well, does there really need to be one? Not everything happens for a reason. The universe is infinite chaos, sprinkled with tiny areas of order. It doesn't understand reason, there simply is, was and will be. In a few billion years, the sun will engulf the Earth and all the meanings humanity has created for themselves will be lost, and the rest of the universe won't even miss them.

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Quoting:
Sounds about right to me.
If I were to choose a religion to follow I would go with one of them old  Greek, Roman or Norse religions.  They explained a lot things but with very human gods, pride, envy, greed, revenge, anger, all the human traits that make people interesting.
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Indeed, and the interesting thing to remember is that to the people of the time, those gods were just as real as the gods who are worshipped today. And yet now they are just considered myths? Imagine if, just for a moment, the Romans had crushed Christianity as they originally intended to do. We may have still been worshipping Jupiter to this day, and reading about Christ in the mythology textbooks, instead.

Quoting:
Why doesn't belong to them.  It doesn't make it any less important.
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Of course not. And sometimes we do know why. My point is that we will continue to ask why, even though we are doomed never to know.

Quoting:


Of course not. And sometimes we do know why. My point is that we will continue to ask why, even though we are doomed never to know.
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This sounds like the Semitic God. Begin with the 10 Commandments; God Himself professed to being jealous and inquisitive. And there isn't an explanation as to "why" He bothered with all this. Job questioned God's will once and got an arrogant reply (and He didn't even answer his question in the first place! Hahaha)...

Yaweh is just as tyrannical and petty as the next guy :)
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Quoting:
Who would be your favorite God? End Quote

Zeus! He was the coolest. Arrogant, lecherous, petty, vindictive. He acted with complete impunity and did whatever he liked. He was like the Al Capone of gods.

;D

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Zeus! He was the coolest. Arrogant, lecherous, petty, vindictive. He acted with complete impunity and did whatever he liked. He was like the Al Capone of gods.

;D
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Quoting:

Who would be your favorite God?  End Quote

Bacchus would be number one.  He was able to indulge all his major appetites whenever and wherever (and whyever)
Prometheus would be a drag.  Besides laying a major guilt trip on you guys for that fire thing, he didn't have much fun.

Quoting:


Zeus! He was the coolest. Arrogant, lecherous, petty, vindictive. He acted with complete impunity and did whatever he liked. He was like the Al Capone of gods.

;D
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Too many administrative responsibilities.  And, if memory serves me correctly,  most of his lecherous prey were changed into cows or hawthorn trees or limpid pools before he was able to get his greedy paws on them.  Bacchus, on the other hand, had armies of river and forest and mountain nymphs....

Quoting:


Bacchus would be number one.  He was able to indulge all his major appetites whenever and wherever (and whyever)
Prometheus would be a drag.  Besides laying a major guilt trip on you guys for that fire thing, he didn't have much fun.
End Quote

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Bacchus is a good one.  For those that need more info please look here
http://www.oregon-wine.com/Bacchus-god-of-wine.htmTrust me when I say it's worth the look. ;)

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Good link, Race.  Forgot about the grape stomping vestal virgins...

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Too many administrative responsibilities.  And, if memory serves me correctly,  most of his lecherous prey were changed into cows or hawthorn trees or limpid pools before he was able to get his greedy paws on them.  Bacchus, on the other hand, had armies of river and forest and mountain nymphs....
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Yeah but he did get to do it with some babes. Like Danae, for example. And he got to throw lightning bolts! Lightning bolts! How cool would that be?


;D

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Other churches state that *they* are the only *true* church, and I just can't believe that.  How do we know that God/Jesus did not visit other cultures?  There is about 25-30 years of Jesus's life that is missing from the Bible.
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Ok..here's my 2 cents.

1.  This bugs me to no end.  I am a Born Again Christian and nothing bugs me more than anyone saying that they are the only true church.  In my opinion God knows what is in everyone's heart.  

2.  As for homosexuality...God hates the sin not the sinner.  Anyone who says that God hates the person makes me leave that church.  Some people are so insecure in their own relationship that they have to put down others.  This is not right.

Ok..off my soapbox. :)

Quoting:


Yeah but he did get to do it with some babes. Like Danae, for example. And he got to throw lightning bolts! Lightning bolts! How cool would that be?


;D
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Yeah, you got me on that one.  He did get to throw lightning bolts... but I'll bet you Bacchus threw better parties.

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Yeah, you got me on that one.  He did get to throw lightning bolts... but I'll bet you Bacchus threw better parties.
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This is true He gave his name to bacchanalia, after all! Don't know if I would have wanted to get mixed up with his women though. They had a habit of getting wasted and ripping things to shreds with their hands! If anyone's going to be doing any goreripping around me, I'd prefer it to be me who does it.

;D

Quoting:
Sounds about right to me.
If I were to choose a religion to follow I would go with one of them old  Greek, Roman or Norse religions.  They explained a lot things but with very human gods, pride, envy, greed, revenge, anger, all the human traits that make people interesting.

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I think the ancient gods were described as having human traits in order to explain why bad things happen.  It's very difficult to explain nowadays why a god that is supposed to be loving and merciful allows so much pain and suffering.  The ancients explained it as (1)There is/were more than one god, often working at cross purposes to each other, and (2) they didn't make their gods to be totally perfect in the first place.  The gods could still make mistakes (though woe to the mortal who DARED to point it out ;) )

I like the explaination written out by many sci-fi/fantasy authors:  We (and by extrapolation the entire universe) were created for the express amusement of the gods.  When we quit being amusing, we will be destroyed. ::)

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Yeah, you got me on that one.  He did get to throw lightning bolts... but I'll bet you Bacchus threw better parties.
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oooh that was good...i like

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Who would be your favorite God?  
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Right now I have a soft spot for Ares.  

Partly because I like the way he was portrayed in Hercules: the Legendary Journeys, Xena:Warrior Princess, and Young Hercules, by the late New Zealand actor Kevin Tod Smith.

And partly because he was supposed to be the patron god of the Amazons.

I also just finished reading Eternally Bad: Goddesses With Attitude by Trina Robbins.  I like Isis, Pele (the Hawiian volcano goddess), and Uzume (a plus-size Japanese goddess who not only was proud of her size, but also invented exotic dancing  :o ).

But my absolute favorite is Lillith.  Adam's first wife, who was created from the clay along with Adam.  Since she was made of the same substance, she refused to bow down to him.  God created her to be Adam's equal, and equal she darn well was going to be!!!!!!

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Actually Ares was pretty lame. In Raimi's TV shows he's a dapper, wicked fellow, but in Greek legend he was a rather ordinary warrior and a bit of a coward. He was even overpowered by Hephaestus, who was a cripple!
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... but married to the hottest chick in the Pantheon. Whereas Zeus was married to, well, Hera.  

Was Hephaestus in a Union?  He always struck me as a shop steward.  

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... but married to the hottest chick in the Pantheon. Whereas Zeus was married to, well, Hera.  

Was Hephaestus in a Union?  He always struck me as a shop steward.  
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Aphrodite was married to Hephaestus, but she carried on an affair with Ares. Oh, that's another thing about the Greek gods -- they were incestuous, as well. Zeus married his sister, Hades married his niece. They were a crazy mixed up bunch, really!  ;)

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Ok I only read like the first page of this thread, but I already know I need to submit something. It may not be exactly on the topic but oh well! Time to whip out the good ol' KJV... well first of all I don't see how anyone can disagree with this statement: "You're not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you're a sinner."  And yes, EVERYONE is a hell-bound sinner.
But how exactly does one "get saved?"  Well, first of all no one "gets" saved.  Because you can't DO anything that will GET you to heaven.  You can go to church, pray,do good works, etc. all you want, but that means absolutely nothing without Christ. Remember Ephesians 2:8-9:"By grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."  The great work has already been done: Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life."  If God sheds His grace and brings you to the point where you WANT to just walk away from ALL your sins and you WANT to follow Him, and you can know in your heart that Christ would have died JUST FOR YOU even if you were the only person ever 2 live on the planet, you can know that you are a true born again Christian.
Sadly with most other religions, they basically say "Oh just pray this prayer" or "Get baptized" or "Just go to confession regularly and you can continue on with your sinful life."  Well, I just don't understand how anyone can fall for anything like that. I don't see how they can find any real peace in that either (I don't think they can)

Ok yeah I know I'm preachin, but I sure hope and pray this touched somebody's heart.
Later guys

-Queen Ruth Lorraine AmenRa Burnt Noodles Shway Crayola Staples
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Well said. :)

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well first of all I don't see how anyone can disagree with this statement: "You're not a sinner because you sin, you sin because you're a sinner."  And yes, EVERYONE is a hell-bound sinner.
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I disagree - the use of the word "because" is ambiguous, which makes it difficult to argue, but...

If your argument is that everyone is bad, therefore everyone sins - no, everyone isn't, and no they don't.  (Unless you count every tiny "sinful" thought or minor misdemeanour, in which case the word "sin" has no meaning anyway).  The committing of wrongful acts is a choice that a person may decide to make - there is free will.  You can choose to live a sinful life or not.

Possibly what pisses me off most about the Christian church (and there's a lot that does) is that they take what is best about all humanity and try to make out that the good and the "saintly" are that way because they are Christian.  Even language is sublimated to that end: "Christian" virtues, for example.

I can rant for hours about Christianity and the other organized religions: all (with one or two very minor exceptions) have them have caused infinitely more suffering and pain than they have ever given enlightenment.

Phil

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I disagree - the use of the word "because" is ambiguous, which makes it difficult to argue, but...

If your argument is that everyone is bad, therefore everyone sins - no, everyone isn't, and no they don't.  (Unless you count every tiny "sinful" thought or minor misdemeanour, in which case the word "sin" has no meaning anyway).  The committing of wrongful acts is a choice that a person may decide to make - there is free will.  You can choose to live a sinful life or not.

Possibly what pisses me off most about the Christian church (and there's a lot that does) is that they take what is best about all humanity and try to make out that the good and the "saintly" are that way because they are Christian.  Even language is sublimated to that end: "Christian" virtues, for example.

I can rant for hours about Christianity and the other organized religions: all (with one or two very minor exceptions) have them have caused infinitely more suffering and pain than they have ever given enlightenment.

Phil
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Valid points all, but I beg to differ. True, there are some things about Christianity that could stand to be changed. Note: Christianity, not Christ. And yes, like it or not, all the misdemeanors do count. We're ALL sinners, like it or not, but it's not as bad as you think. Truth is, God loves us all. It's not as if He's waiting for us to screw up so He can banish us to hell...but the exact opposite. He wants us to come to Him. That's why he sent his Son. All the rest of this confusion that was brought about was brought by humans. God's message is simply stated in John 3:16: God so loved the world that He gave his one and only son so that whosoever believes in Him will nto perish but have everlasting life.

Here's a quiz for you, and whoever's reading this...which one would you think is the more religious guy:

On the one hand, we have a nice guy. His dad is a musician, and he's learned to play pretty good. So good, in fact, that he thinks he's getting better than his dad. All he wants to do is play his music, but his dad doesn't like it. His dad is always giving him the "my house, my rules" speech. But the son won't have it. He wants to do what he wants, and is mad that his dad won't understand that he's really good. Finally, tensions get to be too much, and the dad kicks the music playing son out of the house.

On the other hand, we have another guy. He doesn't have a job, he's out all the time hanging out with hookers and thieves on the streets, he drinks, he's all the time causing trouble, he's even been seen vandalizing churchs and assaulting cops.

Think carefully before you answer, and you'll see why I say that it's humans that bring about confusion, not God.

Quoting:

On the other hand, we have another guy. He doesn't have a job, he's out all the time hanging out with hookers and thieves on the streets, he drinks, he's all the time causing trouble, he's even been seen vandalizing churchs and assaulting cops.End Quote

Well, considering with this one you're describing Christ himself, I'd say that makes it pretty easy.  But you're not describing WHY he did these things, which could stop the confusion in the first place.

In your first case you gave a "why", in a way, the son's pride.  He's allowed his pride to come before all else, forsaking his own family for it.  And Pride is a sin.

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Well, considering with this one you're describing Christ himself, I'd say that makes it pretty easy.  But you're not describing WHY he did these things, which could stop the confusion in the first place.

In your first case you gave a "why", in a way, the son's pride.  He's allowed his pride to come before all else, forsaking his own family for it.  And Pride is a sin.
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OK, but you get my point. AND so you know...the first guy was Lucifer. He wanted to be higher than God, God said 'eh-eh', and kicked him out along with 1/3 of his angels. And you're right, the second guy was Jesus.

I still say that we humans bring a lot of confusions to an otherwise simple concept. Here, allow me to show you.

Say you have a 5 year old who loves video games, and you want to buy him a game. I'm going to describe two video games for you, and you pick which one you'd want the 5 year old to play:

1- An adventurer has been separated from his friends, and he's got to find them so he can go home. He's got to make his way through a bunch of fun-filled mazes searching for keys to unlock doors, and he gets to use different tools that'll help him in his quest to find his friends.

2- You play a blood-thirsty dinosaur that devours EVERYTHING in his path! Watch as the tiny people try to scurry away as you run up behind them and gobble them WHOLE! Your ultimate target: a baby that is kept in a far-away castle! You must find him, even if you have to EAT everyone in your path!

Now, from the description I gave you, which game would you give to the little kid?

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QuakeEnd Quote

Hah! I loved that game! I've also played and enjoyed Half Life, except for the dissapointing ending.

Quoting:
The cold hard fact is if you BELIEVE in your heart that Jesus loves you and died for your sins, you're saved. I didn't say it, the Bible said it.  That's the ONLY way.

To be honest, someone could be the most decent person in the world, but if they aren't saved, God will do what He's got to do. Then again, the lowest, dirtiest person in the world who asks Jesus to save him and BELIEVES will be saved. He could go on his entire life sinning. God won't like it (and will probably get him to stop), but it could happen.

I hope that answered your questions without causing too much more confusion.
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Are you telling us that Gandhi and the Dalai Lama are doomed to perdition?  That's seems a pretty harsh judgement to me.

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Are you telling us that Gandhi and the Dalai Lama are doomed to perdition?  That's seems a pretty harsh judgement to me.
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If you read the bible and understand it, then yes, that's exactly what he means.  Unless Ghandi and the Dalai Lama were saved, then they do not get into heaven.  That's the way it is.  Good deeds do not get one into Heaven.  Living a good life does not get one into Heaven.  Helping others does not get one into Heaven.  There's only ONE way, and it's spelled out clearly in the bible.

And think about this one.  The Catholic Church does not preach this.  The Catholic Church preaches that good deeds, living a good life, attending church, confession, all these things and more will get you into Heaven.  But they DON'T preach the ONLY true way.  SO, think about all the Cathlolics who've done what the church said faithfully day in and day out.  Yes, that means even Mother Teresa, is not getting into Heaven.

Of course, this whole view changes depending on your religion.  I'm sure Catholics will be happy to retort to the contrary.

Quoting:
What about Plato, Socrates, anyone who lived before Jesus Christ?
End Quote

Maybe they were retroactively saved.

I don't mean to be a bastard here, but I don't put too much faith in the Bible.  It's so full of incongruities and contradictions and anachronisms that I just can't take it seriously.  Sorry.

I'm sure I'm still going to go to "heaven" or "paradise" or "nirvana" though ;)

Quoting:

I disagree - the use of the word "because" is ambiguous, which makes it difficult to argue, but...

If your argument is that everyone is bad, therefore everyone sins - no, everyone isn't, and no they don't.  (Unless you count every tiny "sinful" thought or minor misdemeanour, in which case the word "sin" has no meaning anyway).  The committing of wrongful acts is a choice that a person may decide to make - there is free will.  You can choose to live a sinful life or not.End Quote

I am a Christian and my feelings on this is that God can't stand any sin no matter how big or small.  It is all the same to Him.  That is where we are all sinners comes from.  God gave is the freewill to choose because He wants us to choose.  

Quoting:Possibly what pisses me off most about the Christian church (and there's a lot that does) is that they take what is best about all humanity and try to make out that the good and the "saintly" are that way because they are Christian.  Even language is sublimated to that end: "Christian" virtues, for example.

I can rant for hours about Christianity and the other organized religions: all (with one or two very minor exceptions) have them have caused infinitely more suffering and pain than they have ever given enlightenment.

Phil
End Quote

I admit that some people who claim to be Christian do act pious and say they are that way because they are Christian.  There is a church where I am who call themselves christian and they act just this way.  I don't think they are Christian at all.  A true Christian doesn't act better than anyone...they have faults just like any one else.  Please don't lump us all together.  Remember, any church can call themselves Christian but that doesn't mean they are.

Quoting:
I believe that religion is a very personal thing. I can not tell anyone what to believe and no one can tell me what to believe. I can only tell you what I believe. I firmly believe that everyone is intitled to believe anything they want-just as long as that belief doesn't hurt anyone. I also believe that no one should try to "convert" anyone into his/her religion. Everyone has to make that choice for themselves. That is why I don't believe in orginized religions. But some people do need that structure and that is ok for them-but not for me.

As for "heaven" "nirvana" or whatever anyone wants to call it-the afterlife, there is no knowing what is beyond until we get there. There is no way to tell what is the "right way" or what is the "wrong way." The most we can do is be true to ourselves and "Do what you will, but harm none." And if we do that, I think the rest will work itself out.

CatEnd Quote

That's a very sensible view.  :)

Quoting:
What about Plato, Socrates, anyone who lived before Jesus Christ?
End Quote

In the 'Divine Comedy', Dante relegates these souls to the first circle of Hell. They can't enter Heaven because they're unbelievers, but they're not punished either.

Quoting:



Besides all the homosexual tendencies in this layer of hell, I would think it's one of the most interesting places to play a game of chess, philosophise, and discuss mathematics! Virgil is there too. There would be a bunch of good plays and music. Eternal life in god's good grace is over-rated. Add some women-souls to this layer and I'm sold 8)
End Quote

With my luck, the only woman there would be Sappho.  ;D

Quoting:
I am a Christian and my feelings on this is that God can't stand any sin no matter how big or small.  It is all the same to Him.  That is where we are all sinners comes from.  God gave is the freewill to choose because He wants us to choose.  
End Quote

If He truly feels that way about any sin, then he's going to be one mighty pissed off deity - there must be hundreds of thousands of billions of transgressions a day.  Somehow it simply doesn't ring true.  But then I guess that's what faith is: being able to believe anyway.

Quoting:
I admit that some people who claim to be Christian do act pious and say they are that way because they are Christian.
End Quote

I have less problems with that than I do with them saying someone else is that way because they are Christian.

Quoting:
Please don't lump us all together.
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I couldn't do that: after all, different "Christian" sects have been doing their best to kill each other off for centuries, despite being told in no uncertain terms that one of God's main rules is "Thou shalt not kill".

Phil

Quoting:


I couldn't do that: after all, different "Christian" sects have been doing their best to kill each other off for centuries, despite being told in no uncertain terms that one of God's main rules is "Thou shalt not kill".

End Quote

See? That right there makes us just as dirty as anyone else, no matter how some people act. I'll agree, there are people who think that because they are saved they can look down on everyone else from the supposed mountaintop they preach their truths from, but that just ain't so. And also, just as Catwoman said, it's all about personal beliefs. My belief is Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the father but by him. I'd love for you to believe the same, but I'm not about to cram it down your throat. Life is too short, and besides, "a man convinced against his will retains his own opinion still." And also, the second rule that even comes before thou shalt not kill is 'love thy neighbor as thyself.' It doesn't say love them if they're saved, hate them if they aren't. Bottom line: You don't wanna believe? Fine. Let's go have a slice of pizza anyway. Cool?  ;D

Quoting:
And also, the second rule that even comes before thou shalt not kill is 'love thy neighbor as thyself.' It doesn't say love them if they're saved, hate them if they aren't. Bottom line: You don't wanna believe? Fine. Let's go have a slice of pizza anyway. Cool?  ;D
End Quote

:-)  But, say, isn't that second commandment part of the Jewish tradition, too?  Unfortunately, they don't seem to be doing too good a job of loving their neighbour...

And I do have a problem with a theoretically Christian prime minister (or president) who talks about invading a country on the other side of the world, which would inevitably end up killing innocent civilians, because they're scared of what one man might do.  But that's slightly off-topic.

It seems much the same with Islam, in that the Qoran can be interpreted in almost as many ways as the Bible, so there's always someone whose interpretation means that they can end up in control.  Which brings me to the point I was intending to make on my first post, but got distracted: organised religion is about controlling the masses, not about faith, holiness or anything close.  I have nothing against faith, by and large it's a very positive thing, but as soon as it lays down rules and tells people what to do and becomes a religion, then it's time to get out.

Phil

Quoting:

If He truly feels that way about any sin, then he's going to be one mighty pissed off deity - there must be hundreds of thousands of billions of transgressions a day.  Somehow it simply doesn't ring true.  But then I guess that's what faith is: being able to believe anyway.End Quote

I will admit it does take a lot of faith, and I do have a lot of faith.

Quoting:

I have less problems with that than I do with them saying someone else is that way because they are Christian.

I couldn't do that: after all, different "Christian" sects have been doing their best to kill each other off for centuries, despite being told in no uncertain terms that one of God's main rules is "Thou shalt not kill".

Phil

End Quote

You make good arguments.  Thank you for clarifying the lumping in thing.  I can see your point, but like I said before I have faith that what I believe is true.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree.   :)

Quoting:


See? That right there makes us just as dirty as anyone else, no matter how some people act. I'll agree, there are people who think that because they are saved they can look down on everyone else from the supposed mountaintop they preach their truths from, but that just ain't so. And also, just as Catwoman said, it's all about personal beliefs. My belief is Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one goes to the father but by him. I'd love for you to believe the same, but I'm not about to cram it down your throat. Life is too short, and besides, "a man convinced against his will retains his own opinion still." And also, the second rule that even comes before thou shalt not kill is 'love thy neighbor as thyself.' It doesn't say love them if they're saved, hate them if they aren't. Bottom line: You don't wanna believe? Fine. Let's go have a slice of pizza anyway. Cool?  ;D


End Quote

You sound like my kind of Christian.  There is nothing worse than people who cram their beliefs down everyone elses throats.

Quoting:
 I can see your point, but like I said before I have faith that what I believe is true.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree.   :)
End Quote

That's fine with me, too.  You have to live your own life the way you see fit: my wife believes, and we've had our children christened (after all, if I'm right they've lost nothing, and if I'm wrong they're covered, sort of a metaphysical insurance policy)- but I refused to get married in church, as I'd feel nothing binding in making oaths before a God I don't believe exists, though we did have the marriage blessed in a church the following day (and even that was bad enough, believe me).  Hey, that was a long sentence (a bit like marriage, too :-))

Phil

Quoting:




But my absolute favorite is Lillith.  Adam's first wife, who was created from the clay along with Adam.  Since she was made of the same substance, she refused to bow down to him.  God created her to be Adam's equal, and equal she darn well was going to be!!!!!!
End Quote

Sorry to be so uninformed, but I thought Eve was Adam's wife. Where does the "Lillith" thing come in. Where did that name for Adam's wife come from?

Quoting:
Hello This is Ghetto John w/ a more serious topic. I attend Church regulary and im an open Christian. But that doesnt stop me from asking other people about their beliefs. If you are a part of or was raised in an organized religion, or if your a flat out atheist let me know. Im always up to talking , not arguing. I simply like to make conversation. And well this is always a good one, cuz there is so much that i dont know about other religions that well i would just like to know more about them. so please read then respond.
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hehe speaking of aethiests I open the door to johovos weatnesses (I don't know how to spell it) anywho and I told them I was it was so funny.....but I'm Catholic and sometimes I'm embarassed by it because of what the priests did  :o

Quoting:
If you are a part of or was raised in an organized religion, or if your a flat out atheist let me know.
End Quote

well, I was raised in a Christian family and always attended church as a kid.  Then when I was around 17 I went through a "rebellious" stage and part of that involved me turning away from church.  Now as an adult I still don't go as much as I want to.  But I am a Christian.  


Here's something that always strikes me as funny:  Athiests that celebrate Christmas.  And yes I know some athiests are married to someone who is religious, or they have kids who are religious.  But I'm talking about entire athiest families who celebrate Christmas.  

Quoting:


Sorry to be so uninformed, but I thought Eve was Adam's wife. Where does the "Lillith" thing come in. Where did that name for Adam's wife come from?
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Lillith was created before Eve, out of the same clay as Adam. Because of this, she was created EQUAL, and wouldn't submit to him. God ended up punishing her by having her give birth to hundreds of beasts a day that would immediately die as soon as they touched the earth. At least I think that's the story. Good luck finding THAT in the Bible, though.

Atheists don't celebrate Christmas as a Christian festival, but as a human one. The Christmas spirit of 'Peace and goodwill to all' is just as important to those of us who don't believe in God as it is to those of you who do.

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If He truly feels that way about any sin, then he's going to be one mighty pissed off deity - there must be hundreds of thousands of billions of transgressions a day.  Somehow it simply doesn't ring true.  But then I guess that's what faith is: being able to believe anyway.

I couldn't do that: after all, different "Christian" sects have been doing their best to kill each other off for centuries, despite being told in no uncertain terms that one of God's main rules is "Thou shalt not kill".

Phil

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"Thou shalt not kill" is the most disregarded Commandment in the Bible. Throughout Leviticus and Numbers thousands of people are massacred at God's command. There's even specific instructions that adulterers and homosexuals are to be killed. So if it's a sin to kill someone, and some sinners have to be killed as punishment, does the person who kills them also commit a sin. And if they don't kill someone, even if God says it's ok, do they commit a sin against God for defying him? What a confusing set of instructions.

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"Thou shalt not kill" is the most disregarded Commandment in the Bible. Throughout Leviticus and Numbers thousands of people are massacred at God's command. There's even specific instructions that adulterers and homosexuals are to be killed. So if it's a sin to kill someone, and some sinners have to be killed as punishment, does the person who kills them also commit a sin. And if they don't kill someone, even if God says it's ok, do they commit a sin against God for defying him? What a confusing set of instructions.
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Even more confusing is the interpretations of how each religion is supposed to deal with other religions...do you tolerate each other and live in harmony?  Or do you destroy everyone who thinks differently from you?  The fundamentalists say one thing, the not-so-insane say another...very interesting indeed.

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Lillith was created before Eve, out of the same clay as Adam. Because of this, she was created EQUAL, and wouldn't submit to him. God ended up punishing her by having her give birth to hundreds of beasts a day that would immediately die as soon as they touched the earth. At least I think that's the story. Good luck finding THAT in the Bible, though.

{...}
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Lillith is not in the official Bible.  She was there originally, when the Bible was several dozen separate scrolls.  When the "authorities" decided to put together the Canon, or officially accepted version of the Old Testament, Lillith was left out (or taken out).

Lillith has long existed in myth and folklore, and may be found in some of the Apocrypha (I think? I'm not sure where...)  The oldest known written reference to her is in a manuscript called Alphabet Of Ben Sira, which dates from somewhere between the Seventh and Tenth Centuries C.E.

A careful reading of the Book of Genesis will turn up a clue to some major editing.  On one page God creates Adam and his wife at the same time ("Male and female he created them"), and on the next page God puts Adam to sleep, takes out one of the ribs, and makes a woman out of it.

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So if it's a sin to kill someone, and some sinners have to be killed as punishment, does the person who kills them also commit a sin. And if they don't kill someone, even if God says it's ok, do they commit a sin against God for defying him? What a confusing set of instructions.
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ISTM that's why you get death by stoning (or more recently firing squads) - so no single person actually does the killing, it's kind of a group activity.  Though it took Jesus to come up with the foil for that particular argument ('let he who is without sin cast the first stone')

As confusing instructions go, it's far from alone in the bible (not to mention the Koran)

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Lillith has long existed in myth and folklore, and may be found in some of the Apocrypha (I think? I'm not sure where...)  
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I don't think you'll find Lilith in the apocrypha, certainly not the bits that the Catholic church includes in the gospels (but then again, they did burn the bits they didn't like, so it's hard to say what might have been there).

It amuses me that we have the words "gospel" and "apocryphal" which derive from "the bits of the bible the Church likes" and "the bits they didn't" - both are basically stories written down dozens or hundreds of years after the original events of exactly the same kind of provenance, yet one word means "true", the other "hearsay, probably not true".  It's a funny old language.

Phil

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See?  God knows how to represent with his homeys ;D

http://graphics.theonion.com/pics_3731/god_gives_shout_out.jpg
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   I see we have another Onion reader in here...isn't that site a riot!?

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(after all, if I'm right they've lost nothing, and if I'm wrong they're covered, sort of a metaphysical insurance policy)-
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   Aha!  I was waiting for Pascal's Wager to come-up, but from Philbo?  I'm shocked! :o

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Is Lillith mentioned in the Kabbalah at all?
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Good question.  Unfortunately, I don't know the answer, as I've not read the Kabbalah.  Most of the stuff I've read come from Christian or Pagan authorities.