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Subject: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her child.
We have all seen the infamous video tape of Madeline Toogood beating her child in the parking lot of a large retail store. Controversy has risen over the Toogoods life style. They are a family of "travelers", and practice some rituals that may seem a little odd (dressing up girls like Jean Bonnet Ramsey and Parading them in front of the family elders, Making the girls drop out of school after sixth grade, marying the girls off at age 13, Ripping people off, ETC). So should the goverment take the kid away so the kid may someday lead a Normal life? Or is it the right of the parent to raise the kid the way they want, no matter how odd the lifestyle may be?
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
This is a tough call. The authorities obviously need to protect the children. However, I think taking a child permenently from the parent should only be done in extreme cases. If the Toogoods can establish a permanent residence and take mandatory parenting classes and are carefully monitored by social services, then, yes, I think they should be able to keep custody of their children.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Lifestyle notwithstanding, I think she should. That mother punched her child in the face...not because the child did anything, but because she couldn't get a refund from the store. Even if the child was bad, there is never a reason to punch your child in the head and face like that. It just made me sick. >:( >:( >:( >:(
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
I ahven't seen the video, but if she punched her child, in the face no less, the b*tch should not only have her children taken away, she should be repeatedly pummelled in the face herself, all the while being asked "Do you like it!?!, DO YOU LIKE IT!?!"
I mean, Christ, children depend on us for safety, love, protection, affection, EVERYTHING! If you can't provide it, give them to someone who CAN, but don't abuse them for God's sake!
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Zella is right. Taking a child away from their Mother can do permanent damage. Unfortunately, children are all forgiving of their Mothers no matter what they've done in most cases. I don't condone what Mrs. Toogood did at all. But I can understand getting to that point out of exaustion, frustration, whatever where you think about stepping over the line with punishment. Maybe Mom needs some counseling and medication. I think all options should be addressed before they take away her child.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Toogood, what a misnomer!!! ::)
I am almost ashamed of being called a Hoosier after finding out Mother Madeline is from Mishawaka. The only victim here is the child. The courts should do what is best for the child, and make her mother take a few courses in child-rearing before she is allowed to see her daughter again. Although the child would be tramatized initially; with proper counseling, she'll understand why her mother needs the help, so that nothing like this happens again.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
Zella is right. Taking a child away from their Mother can do permanent damage. Unfortunately, children are all forgiving of their Mothers no matter what they've done in most cases. I don't condone what Mrs. Toogood did at all. But I can understand getting to that point out of exaustion, frustration, whatever where you think about stepping over the line with punishment. Maybe Mom needs some counseling and medication. I think all options should be addressed before they take away her child.
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but, hasn't the mother ALREADY done permanent damage to they child by beating it? even if the mother gets counseling and medication now, it's already too late. the child is already permanently damaged from her behavior. also, the fact that children tend to be all-forgiving of their mothers may, in the end, support removal from the situation, in my opinion. children often lack the knowledge and understanding that some situations are detrimental long after the sting of the spank goes away. the child forgives mother not because she deserves it or has made amends, but because she is mother. this is part of what makes children so innocent. this is also why child welfare agencies are formed...to help children in situations where a parent has caused terrible harm to an innocent child who knows only to forgive. i'm not trying to argue or pick fights...i'm only offering another angle on the subject. i understand your point. and i agree with your ending statement concerning the exploration of all options.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
No, I don't think she should get her child back because what she did was terrible. And who's to say she won't do it again if she gets her child back?
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
Zella is right. Taking a child away from their Mother can do permanent damage. Unfortunately, children are all forgiving of their Mothers no matter what they've done in most cases. I don't condone what Mrs. Toogood did at all. But I can understand getting to that point out of exaustion, frustration, whatever where you think about stepping over the line with punishment. Maybe Mom needs some counseling and medication. I think all options should be addressed before they take away her child.
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I'm with you, Tripsmom. Now I personally think that it has been overdone in the media anyway. I actually heard from a station here, the day the tape first came out, "Watch as she starts hitting the child, unprovoked..." and I lost it. I'm sorry, but unprovoked?? At that point, no one KNEW what had happened! And I'll say right now that my kids (the older two, anyway ;)) have been forewarned when their behavior gets terrible that they "don't want us to take them out to the car". The woman has said the little girl was not behaving in the store. Now, if she were actually punching her (no marks though? That confuses me), then that is beyond "alright", and I don't condone that at all! But I also don't condone being followed around with a camera all the time!! I understand mom was suspected of theft, which may explain the video, but why in the heck should parents, in general, be afraid to do ANYTHING to their own kids? Again, if this woman was beyond reason, and actually PUNCHING this little girl (I, for one, can't make out what she's doing--hitting the kid, the car seat, what) then that isn't okay, and she should be made to attend parenting classes or something--but, I also know how badly it annoys me when people tell me how to raise my kids. If we're in the mall, and one of them starts being bratty, people stare at you like "Can't you control that child??" but then when you do take the kid aside, then they all want to look at you like "Don't touch that baby!" What are parents supposed to do? Beating the tar out of your child is never okay. But if you want us (parents) to handle our kids, then let us do it! Nosy people just p*ss me off--until my children start appearing with bruises, broken bones, scared and withdrawn behavior, then assume we are doing fine with how we discipline them and LEAVE US ALONE!!! >:(
Okay-sorry if I ticked anyone off with that rant, but it's been bugging me ever since I started seeing that videotape being played over...and over...and over..
Again, in this case, by all means, look into it further!! Do what needs to be done. But far be it from me to judge what was going through this woman's mind when it happened. I think the media has turned it into WAY more than it had to be. Any parent can understand losing their temper--how they handle it should be the only question.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
... just one more reason to join the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. Viva VHEMT!
http://www.vhemt.org/
Tarzan Boy
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The trouble with this is it is voluntary, the people that should sign up may not and people that shouldn't may making it counter productive.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Marci, I hate to disagree with you (and those that read my posts may think otherwise). Ms. Toogood went 'beyond' when she started to shake the girl violently. As someone who was shaken repeatedly by people that weren't my parents, that could have a serious psychological effect on the girl as she gets older. Most child psychiatrists agree that shaking a child does more harm than good. If the mother was going to anything violent to the child, she should not do it in a public place. I agree with you that survellience cameras should only be use for the purpose of capturing real criminals. So it is sad that something like child abuse is ever caught on tape. But if you saw a mother beating up a child, I find it hard to believe another would just stand there like its a common occurance.
P.S.: I have been in stores and parking lots where parents hold their kids by the arm. And that isn't even considered abuse?!! :( ???
Quoting:
I'm with you, Tripsmom. Now I personally think that it has been overdone in the media anyway. I actually heard from a station here, the day the tape first came out, "Watch as she starts hitting the child, unprovoked..." and I lost it. I'm sorry, but unprovoked?? At that point, no one KNEW what had happened! And I'll say right now that my kids (the older two, anyway ;)) have been forewarned when their behavior gets terrible that they "don't want us to take them out to the car". The woman has said the little girl was not behaving in the store. Now, if she were actually punching her (no marks though? That confuses me), then that is beyond "alright", and I don't condone that at all! But I also don't condone being followed around with a camera all the time!! I understand mom was suspected of theft, which may explain the video, but why in the heck should parents, in general, be afraid to do ANYTHING to their own kids? Again, if this woman was beyond reason, and actually PUNCHING this little girl (I, for one, can't make out what she's doing--hitting the kid, the car seat, what) then that isn't okay, and she should be made to attend parenting classes or something--but, I also know how badly it annoys me when people tell me how to raise my kids. If we're in the mall, and one of them starts being bratty, people stare at you like "Can't you control that child??" but then when you do take the kid aside, then they all want to look at you like "Don't touch that baby!" What are parents supposed to do? Beating the tar out of your child is never okay. But if you want us (parents) to handle our kids, then let us do it! Nosy people just p*ss me off--until my children start appearing with bruises, broken bones, scared and withdrawn behavior, then assume we are doing fine with how we discipline them and LEAVE US ALONE!!! >:(
Okay-sorry if I ticked anyone off with that rant, but it's been bugging me ever since I started seeing that videotape being played over...and over...and over..
Again, in this case, by all means, look into it further!! Do what needs to be done. But far be it from me to judge what was going through this woman's mind when it happened. I think the media has turned it into WAY more than it had to be. Any parent can understand losing their temper--how they handle it should be the only question.
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Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
P.S.: I have been in stores and parking lots where parents hold their kids by the arm. And that isn't even considered abuse?!! :( ???
End Quote
Can I ask for a little clarification here, IG? Do you mean carrying them by the arm or leading them to the car while holding on to their arm?
Marci, you have valid points, but didn't the mother admit to hitting the child? I agree that nosy people need to butt out. I had a lady one time butt in when I was threatening to take away a privilege because my daughter kept running away from me in a busy store. She said something to Sarah then looked at me and said "I am trying positive reinforcement". Of course I couldn't think of anything to say at the time...although I was tempted to tell her to f*** off and die but that was a little mean. (I had had a bad day and the daughter was being a bugger all day). There is also a difference in a swat to the tush and punching, I don't care what the child did...it looked to me like the mother was punching her. If she was truly punching the child then the child needs to be removed. All I can say is that I hope justice is served, the only ones who truly know what happened are the mother, the other adult and the little girl.
I do agree that the video has been way overplayed. Enough!
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
I've seen both. I think that was more ignorance of parenting than actual abuse. Call it what you like.
Quoting:
Can I ask for a little clarification here, IG? Do you mean carrying them by the arm or leading them to the car while holding on to their arm?
End Quote
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
I've seen both. I think that was more ignorance of parenting than actual abuse. Call it what you like.
End Quote
Ok...my side. Leading a child to the car while hanging on to their arm is not abuse. Maybe I did not clarify while they are walking. My daughter is 4 and does not want to hold my hand anymore...she is a big girl now ::), so the only way I can keep her by my side is to hang on to her arm. Not squeezing or hurting, just hanging on.
Ok, back on topic.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
Can I ask for a little clarification here, IG? Do you mean carrying them by the arm or leading them to the car while holding on to their arm?
Marci, you have valid points, but didn't the mother admit to hitting the child? I agree that nosy people need to butt out. I had a lady one time butt in when I was threatening to take away a privilege because my daughter kept running away from me in a busy store. She said something to Sarah then looked at me and said "I am trying positive reinforcement". Of course I couldn't think of anything to say at the time...although I was tempted to tell her to f*** off and die but that was a little mean. (I had had a bad day and the daughter was being a bugger all day). There is also a difference in a swat to the tush and punching, I don't care what the child did...it looked to me like the mother was punching her. If she was truly punching the child then the child needs to be removed. All I can say is that I hope justice is served, the only ones who truly know what happened are the mother, the other adult and the little girl.
I do agree that the video has been way overplayed. Enough!
End Quote
I'm not sure what exactly she admitted to--losing her cool, (obviously!), hitting her, (but to what extent?), or what. Now let me clarify----BY NO MEANS would I ever excuse or condone "punching" a child--and if that is what she did, she needs serious help! Like I said, I can't personally make out what she was doing; at least not to a point where I would feel comfortable taking her child away.
Fortunately I have never (so far! LOL!) had somebody get right in the middle of my business with my kids--but you sound like you remained cooler than I would've in the same situation! LOL! When mine have gotten into "great big trouble", and I had to do something, I just do my best to "remain calm" and focus ALL my attention on them and not to pay attention to the stares of the nosy folks (that, I'm sorry, but if they have such a better way to handle it, then I dare them to take them home for a week and prove it! ;) ) that are eyeballing your every move.
I gotta say that I was a bit worried the other day though--quick story--I walk the kids to school like two blocks up from our house in the mornings. Now, with a baby that I have to bundle up and strap in the stroller and so forth, I take a few minutes to get ready to leave, and the other two will wander outside and wait for us..or at least they're supposed to. My oldest (just turned 9) was standing right outside the door when the baby and I rolled out. But my daughter (5 1/2) had "disappeared". When I asked my son where she was, he was kind of clueless, (despite the fact that they had walked out together ::) ) so I called for her--no answer. I looked over towards the car, where she would sometimes wait--nothing. We took off to go and guess who was a full 2-3 houses UP, by themselves?? Yup! Now, maybe I'm too "anal", but I get nervous when she gets more than a few FEET ahead of me, and here she was, heading off to school alone! Needless to say, I yelled up to her, to no avail. She just kept on walking. So I resorted to yelling (okay--more like that loud "mommy firm" voice) again, "Kayleigh Brianne, get your A** back here right now!" Not the best language for a kid, and I knew it the minute I said it--but I had been a bit nervous, ya know? Anyway, the neighbors across the street were suddenly standing in their doorway, looking right at us, and I'm thinking 'Oh, crap, just what I need, neighbors hearing me talking to a kindergartener like that!' But, they were smiling, so I took that as a good sign-so I said "They think they're SO independant" and smiled. He smiled again and said "They ALWAYS are!" So hopefully, since they have teenagers, they understand what it's like to 'lose it' every now and again. ;)
But here I was picturing me, on a tv video somewhere, screaming swear words at a 3 foot tall little girl with ponytails with a lead in like "When mothers lose it" and a news anchor shaking her head in disgust... :-/
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
I'm not sure what exactly she admitted to--losing her cool, (obviously!), hitting her, (but to what extent?), or what. Now let me clarify----BY NO MEANS would I ever excuse or condone "punching" a child--and if that is what she did, she needs serious help! Like I said, I can't personally make out what she was doing; at least not to a point where I would feel comfortable taking her child away.
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You do have a valid point there. I do admit that I get a little hot headed when I hear about child abuse. Especially that little girls age as she is my daughters age. I just perceived something different. I guess this is why there will probably be a trial, so these things can be figured out. I agree that children should not be taken away for minor things, though.
Quoting:
Fortunately I have never (so far! LOL!) had somebody get right in the middle of my business with my kids--but you sound like you remained cooler than I would've in the same situation! LOL! When mine have gotten into "great big trouble", and I had to do something, I just do my best to "remain calm" and focus ALL my attention on them and not to pay attention to the stares of the nosy folks (that, I'm sorry, but if they have such a better way to handle it, then I dare them to take them home for a week and prove it! ;) ) that are eyeballing your every move.
End Quote
Trust me, the only reason I was calm was that I didn't think quick enough to tell her where to stick her advice. ;)
Quoting:
I gotta say that I was a bit worried the other day though--quick story--I walk the kids to school like two blocks up from our house in the mornings. Now, with a baby that I have to bundle up and strap in the stroller and so forth, I take a few minutes to get ready to leave, and the other two will wander outside and wait for us..or at least they're supposed to. My oldest (just turned 9) was standing right outside the door when the baby and I rolled out. But my daughter (5 1/2) had "disappeared". When I asked my son where she was, he was kind of clueless, (despite the fact that they had walked out together ::) ) so I called for her--no answer. I looked over towards the car, where she would sometimes wait--nothing. We took off to go and guess who was a full 2-3 houses UP, by themselves?? Yup! Now, maybe I'm too "anal", but I get nervous when she gets more than a few FEET ahead of me, and here she was, heading off to school alone! Needless to say, I yelled up to her, to no avail. She just kept on walking. So I resorted to yelling (okay--more like that loud "mommy firm" voice) again, "Kayleigh Brianne, get your A** back here right now!" Not the best language for a kid, and I knew it the minute I said it--but I had been a bit nervous, ya know? Anyway, the neighbors across the street were suddenly standing in their doorway, looking right at us, and I'm thinking 'Oh, crap, just what I need, neighbors hearing me talking to a kindergartener like that!' But, they were smiling, so I took that as a good sign-so I said "They think they're SO independant" and smiled. He smiled again and said "They ALWAYS are!" So hopefully, since they have teenagers, they understand what it's like to 'lose it' every now and again. ;)
But here I was picturing me, on a tv video somewhere, screaming swear words at a 3 foot tall little girl with ponytails with a lead in like "When mothers lose it" and a news anchor shaking her head in disgust... :-/
End Quote
Your little girl sounds like mine. Very independent. She wants to grow up so fast that it scares me. I got teary eyed today because she put the sheets on her own bed...then again that could also be PMS. ;D
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
I believe that holding to a child with his/her arm to keep him/her from getting hit by an oncoming vehicle is okay. I do draw the line when a parent leaves a child dangling with his/her arm (and not walking) just to keep them from bugging the parent. Dagwood, I did not mean to call you or anyone an unfit parent. All I said is there are parents like those that I (and maybe others) have witnessed with our eyes. These parents should know that a child is not a cardboard ornament that can be hung around their rear-view mirror. I can assume safely that everyone on here that has children are responsible, caring parents. 8)
Quoting:
Ok...my side. Leading a child to the car while hanging on to their arm is not abuse. Maybe I did not clarify while they are walking. My daughter is 4 and does not want to hold my hand anymore...she is a big girl now ::), so the only way I can keep her by my side is to hang on to her arm. Not squeezing or hurting, just hanging on.
Ok, back on topic.
End Quote
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Quoting:
Dagwood, I did not mean to call you or anyone an unfit parent. All I said is there are parents like those that I (and maybe others) have witnessed with our eyes. These parents should know that a child is not a cardboard ornament that can be hung around their rear-view mirror. I can assume safely that everyone on here that has children are responsible, caring parents. 8)
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Indy Gent, I did not take that comment that way...sorry if it seemed that way. :D
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
I apologize for taking it that way. ;D.
Quoting:
Indy Gent, I did not take that comment that way...sorry if it seemed that way. :D
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Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Oh definately. She might end up killing the children if she continues (especially if she's dressing the child up like Jean Bonnet). Ironic that her name is "Toogood" huh?
Quoting:
We have all seen the infamous video tape of Madeline Toogood beating her child in the parking lot of a large retail store. Controversy has risen over the Toogoods life style. They are a family of "travelers", and practice some rituals that may seem a little odd (dressing up girls like Jean Bonnet Ramsey and Parading them in front of the family elders, Making the girls drop out of school after sixth grade, marying the girls off at age 13, Ripping people off, ETC). So should the goverment take the kid away so the kid may someday lead a Normal life? Or is it the right of the parent to raise the kid the way they want, no matter how odd the lifestyle may be?
End Quote
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
As far as I am concerned giving birth does not make one a parent.
Parenting has to be learned and mistakes will be made along the way.
There are a hell of a lot of people out there in the world who should never have been allowed to have children.
How come so much effort is put into driving lessons - but a 15 year old can pop out a kid and be called a parent without any lessons whatsoever.
In my suburb - just a few streets away - there is a woman. She is described as a parent - its not the term I would use.
She left a 6 month old baby lying on the floor next to a toaster that she had jammed down so it would stay hot. Then she went down the street to smoke drugs with her friends. Amazingly (cos who would have thought it) the house burned down and the baby died.
This is the third child she has had that this has happened to.
At some stage authorities should be allowed to sterilize this woman to protect any future children from being born to her and killed by her - but no - too politically incorrect isnt it.
I am all for children being removed from homes if it helps the children. I dont think it scars kids to be taken out of a violent home and put into a home where people car for it. I would rather be raised by someone who cares for me than by an animal who just happened to be the person who gave birth to me.
This Toogood woman looked around the car park several times before reaching in and pummeling her child - that tells me she was well aware of her actions and that she didnt want to be spotted doing it.
And I am all for Big Brother in the sky - cameras filming car parks etc.
In the UK 10 years ago no one would ever have known who killed little Jamie Bulger if they hadnt been able to track all his last movements via various street cameras. And the same with the two little girls who were killed the other month over there.
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Over here, there is a new tracking system called the "Amber Alert", named after a young girl that was murdered after being kidnapped. Computerized electronic signs are placed on our highways. If a kidnapping is spotted, one can use a cellphone or their vehicle's online systems to alert the authorities. I hope it works for the right reasons. :-/
Is there anything similar to that being planned in the UK or Oz?
Quoting:
And I am all for Big Brother in the sky - cameras filming car parks etc.
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Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
*ahem* <plops soapbox down, taps mic>
Is this thing on? Okay.
It is all well and good to feel passionately about children, but I draw the line at insisting a woman loose her child unless you're willing to take it. Seriously. When was the last time you baby-sat for a friend for free, or cleaned a single mother's house, or came to a party early to watch the kid so mom and dad could get ready? When was the last time you donated to a children's hospital or shelter? Or volunteered to educate homeless kids? I mean, yeah, it takes a village, but our part is more than just sitting back and saying, "for shame."
<ducking rotten vegetables and running off, avec soapbox> Thank you ladies and gentlemen and don't forget to tip your waitress!
Subject: Re: Do you think Mrs.Toogood should loose her chil
Hey there Indy Gent - I spotted that new system getting used when those two girls were kidnapped - its amazing. I am in Oz and we have nothing like that here "yet". We dont have many eye in the sky cams either unfortunately. If we did then maybe Perths local serial killer would have been arrested by now :(
Lang - no need for soapboxes here - we all stand at the same height and talk !!!!! :) Seriously - I made a decision at 14 that I was not remotely into kids and was never going to have them - at 34 I stand by that decision. I will still stand by that decision at 54 when its too late to chane m mind. I am pretty sure they would P me off enough to slap them in a car park. So by not having them I have protected them. My friends are not allowed to bring their kids to my home when they are between crawling and highschool age. Any younger or older I can just tolerate !!!
I am pretty sure Mrs NotsoToogood is aware of her own strengths and weaknesses and like any normal person she should have been able to take a step back and think about what she was doing.
With regards to what I have done for people - I have helped several friends thru pregancys - to the point where when they were abandoned by their partners and familys I had them move in with me and I became their birth partner etc till after they had the baby and found new accomodation. I even helped deliver one before an ambulance arrived. I dedicated about 10 months of non stop emotional and financial care to them.
This doesnt make me qualified to remove a child from its home. In my state Family And Childrens Services (dif names in dif states and across the world) have professional qualified people who are best able to judge whether a child is safe in its home. They have a network of loving and giving people ready to give a battered child a home.
Now I am a pretty hard person in many peoples eyes (mostly due to my refusal to have kids) - I dont go clucky clucky goo goo at the sight of a child in a pram. But it brings me to tears to see that child beaten.
And I am all for smacking - I think discipline is lacking in so many households across the world - but what that stupid woman did in the car park did not constitute smacking. It was a severe and lengthy beating. It was not spur of the moment - it was premeditated because she looked around to see if anyone could see her actions.
What does she do behind closed doors ??????????????? Do we want to fnd out ??? or do we want that child to make it to its 5th birthday ?