Quoting:
Maybe from his standpoint it is. Say, for the heck of it, you're a conservative Christian and your daughter's mother, who has custody is, say, wiccan. Now everyday at Our Fairy Friends and Wee Folk School your daughter recites an incantation to The Goddess, but she says it's not harming her. You, on the other hand, believe her entire future and method of thinking clearly is in jeopardy because of this erroneous indoctrination.

You see?
End Quote

To add to your story, Me conservative christian has tried on many attemps in many different states to get the "wiccan pledge" thrown out because it goes aginst my beliefs, but I fail on many different levels, finally in a last ditch effort to make my lifes crusade to end wicca in the goverment a success I use my daughter who is a practicing wiccan by explaining to 9th circuit court that my daughter is being harmed by wicca in the schools. They make the desiscion bassed on my daughter being harmed.  was she actually being harmed? No. Does everyone in america believe she share's my views? yes.

This newdow guy is a creep, not because of his beliefs, but because he used his daughter for his own personal crusade. He had failed on many attemps when he tried this w/o the use of his chilld.  he new the 9th court would react differently if a child was involved.

Quoting:
...the facts that he lied and used his child for his own crusade and his daughter's comments oppose what he's been arguing the whole time seem to reflect poorly on atheists in general.End Quote

Do you think so?
The problem with this is that I can find a bad example from pretty much any group you care to name.
Do Adolf Hitler's actions reflect poorly on Christians/Catholics?
Do Timothy McVeigh's actions reflect poorly on Americans?
(I don't think so!)

Secondly, why do Newdow's actions reflect on athiests?  Mr Newdow is also an American, a man, a father, a football fan (maybe), etc.
Do his actions reflect on these groups too?

Just a thought... :D

Quoting:

Do you think so?
The problem with this is that I can find a bad example from pretty much any group you care to name.
Do Adolf Hitler's actions reflect poorly on Christians/Catholics?
Do Timothy McVeigh's actions reflect poorly on Americans?
(I don't think so!)

Secondly, why do Newdow's actions reflect on athiests?  Mr Newdow is also an American, a man, a father, a football fan (maybe), etc.
Do his actions reflect on these groups too?

Just a thought... :D
End Quote

one of the cornerstones of his argument was in the name of atheistic beliefs.  that he (a very public example of atheists) turns out to be lying in the name of athiests reflects poorly on the general atheistic populous.  this is because what the public sees as an example tends to shape the general opinion of a group.  there is already a general disdain for athiests (i know this because i've been there) and this guy's actions do nothing to promote this belief and everything to add to some of the misconceptions.  i'm not saying this is right, i'm just saying it happens.  if he were christian, i would think the same, but it wouldn't matter because the general view of christianity is good anyway.  and for your information, i believe that a bad example reflects poorly on whatever group, state or nation they're actions are affiliated with, that's why they're called bad examples.

Quoting:
I think anyone who doesn't like something should simply ignore it....unless it directly affects them.  When that lady in Michigan got all pissed because her son burned down the house after hearing Fire on Beavis & Butthead, she made me sick by protesting the show....TURN THE CHANNEL!  Same for the Pledge....if you don't believe in the term "Under God" then just don't say it....
End Quote

Spot on, when I was a kid, I had church services (linked to cub scouts).  The church, being a high church, had what seemed like hours of 'mantras' for me to chant, I ignored them completely.  They meant nothing to me as I said them, I took them for exactly what they were, words on a peice of paper that I was required to say.

Quoting:
atheistic beliefs.  
End Quote

...isn't that oxymoron?

Quoting:
but it wouldn't matter because the general view of christianity is good anyway.
End Quote

Not amongst atheists ;-)

Quoting:
and for your information, i believe that a bad example reflects poorly on whatever group, state or nation they're actions are affiliated with, that's why they're called bad examples.
End Quote

Much in the same way that Bin Laden's actions have tarnished the name of Muslims generally, or the TV evangelists who have lived the life of Reilly on their gullible parishoners' donations ...

The thing is, that atheists aren't a unified church: I'm an atheist, and I don't go out preaching "there is no God", so there's no way I should feel that the actions of some self-serving egotist (be he atheist or no) has any negative bearing on either myself of other atheists.  If you think that his behaviour reflects badly on atheists as a group, that is, IMHO, your problem rather than mine.

Phil

Quoting:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020711/ap_on_re_us/pledge_daughter_1

does not share her father’s atheist views.  
End Quote

I don't really care if he is aetheist or not but...... I didn't want to say tha d@mn pledge either and I'm not an aetheist....

Quoting:
please don't get me wrong...i don't dislike you, but you both have really p*ssed me off.
End Quote

Panda -
I'm really sorry you feel that way.  It was never my intention to attack you or your opinion.  Infact, I rechecked my posts to this thread and my second post starts with 'Panda I agree' and then continues with my opinion.  It was not a rebuttal of your previous statement, checking your post I can't see any evidence that we actually disagree on this point, what makes you think I am picking you apart?
We are both entitled to an opinion and when we make it public it becomes open to debate.
As for your claim to have checked other similar posts, I suggest you check again!  I've just listed my last 50 posts and I see no evidence whatsoever of what you accuse me of.

I'm not going to make this into a fight because (like you) I really don't care but I think your personal attack on Phil and Myself is unfair and unwarranted.

I am sorry you're having personal problems, they're none of my business but I hope you are able to resolve them soon.

Go in peace!
Rob

Quoting:
to taoist and philbo:
please don't get me wrong...i don't dislike you, but you both have really p*ssed me off.
End Quote

I'm sorry if any of my posts have upset you, and I didn't mean it to be demeaning it's just that when I disagree with a point of view I tend to try and explain my reasons for disagreeing.  Part of the point of debate is to try and influence people's views, after all.

I'm sorry to hear you're having a s**t of a time off the boards, and it probably doesn't help to have both Taoist and me arguing back: we seem to come from the same sort of viewpoint, and argue in a similar way, so I guess having both of us on your case might feel a bit like being hounded.

Again, sorry if I have caused offence, and I'll try and rein in my more combative sentiments in the future.  Having said that, I'm a lot more restrained here than on my longer-term conferencing hang-out, which does get a bit, er, robust at times.

Phil

Quoting:

I'm sorry if any of my posts have upset you, and I didn't mean it to be demeaning it's just that when I disagree with a point of view I tend to try and explain my reasons for disagreeing.  Part of the point of debate is to try and influence people's views, after all.

I'm sorry to hear you're having a s**t of a time off the boards, and it probably doesn't help to have both Taoist and me arguing back: we seem to come from the same sort of viewpoint, and argue in a similar way, so I guess having both of us on your case might feel a bit like being hounded.

Again, sorry if I have caused offence, and I'll try and rein in my more combative sentiments in the future.  Having said that, I'm a lot more restrained here than on my longer-term conferencing hang-out, which does get a bit, er, robust at times.

Phil
End Quote

i think what threw me off with your post was that the combativeness seemed to come out of nowhere, since my original posts were not written in the spirit of being combative or as a start for a debate.  i was just trying to point something out and it seemed that it was taken out of that context and put into one that made me into someone having this big problem with something that i don't have a problem with at all.  i know it doesn't help that i've been sad and crying at least once a day for the last few weeks, but i think i would have been at least slightly taken aback with your post under normal circumstances.  i'm not going to worry about it anymore.  i may not even be back after today because i don't know if the new place will have internet access, so i guess it doesn't matter.

Quoting:
Panda -
I hope your move goes well!
Hurry on back - we'll miss you!
There's no point debating with people who agree ;)
End Quote

you know, i had a nicely-written explanation of what it was about your posts that struck the bad chord.  but i'll save it for some other time.  and i may have thought someone else's posts were yours due to similar writing styles and if that is the case, i apologize for the exaggeration.

Quoting:
you know, i had a nicely-written explanation of what it was about your posts that struck the bad chord.  but i'll save it for some other time.  and i may have thought someone else's posts were yours due to similar writing styles and if that is the case, i apologize for the exaggeration.
End Quote

No problem, Sometimes, whilst trying to be precise, I sound a little terse so I apologise also!
Debate in this type of forum has it's advantages and disadvantages.  On one hand, you can take as much time as you want to compose exactly the right sentiment (I generally delete far more than I post).  The disadvantage is that the communication is one way.  When you read my post, I'm not there to explain it.
But anyway, life's too short for fighting...

Have fun
Rob

Quoting:
i think what threw me off with your post was that the combativeness seemed to come out of nowhere, since my original posts were not written in the spirit of being combative or as a start for a debate.
End Quote

I think I know the comment you mean now - step back a sec, and look at it from my side: as an atheist myself, it seemed to me that you were tarring me with the same brush as some extremist who uses his daughter's education to further his own politics...

Quoting:
i may not even be back after today because i don't know if the new place will have internet access, so i guess it doesn't matter.
End Quote

I hope the move goes well, you do end up in a nice place with broadband (well, you can dream...) and we'll see you here in the future

Phil