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Subject: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
http://news.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74088%7CCHID211716%7CCIID1115944,00.html
Apperently It's OK to teach a religon in a public school as long as its not Christianity. Thoughts?
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Apperently It's OK to teach a religon in a public school as long as its not Christianity. Thoughts?
End Quote
Looks like bollocks to me. It comes from a biased reporter, with one (similarly biased) source - it's not that I'm saying a Rev. shouldn't be allowed to write on these sorts of subjects, but you do need to take into account the viewpoint of the author.
Of course, if this were a scare story, you'd never hear about it, and would be left with the opinion that schools try and brainwash their pupils to pray to allah and don't allow them to say Jesus' name...
Besides, not allowing pupils to speak the name of Jesus would in itself be unconstitutional - ISTM there is an excessive amount of spin on this story.
Phil
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Screwball, you're a screwball to venture into this territory and you know it! (But then, so am I!)
This is not bullocks, it's the truth. This is an old story that came out months ago. It is the truth that this suddenly became a requirement; obviously "sensitivity" training to ensure the youth don't turn into the raving vengeful monsters that we all know permeated this country ;) after the attacks on it. Recall that epidemic of revenge on Moslems? Oh you don't? Oh, OK. That's right, a few people across the country w/in the month and none since doesn't constitute "epidemic".
I suppose all the complaints from Moslems are useless, too, since they are likewise biased. Are they not? I.e., strawman argument - esp. since as I said, this is old news already widely known. And it's likewise true that there is a fit every time someone - including kids themselves - want to have a mass prayer or extracurricular bible club. No, it's not "terrible", but there are places around the country where admin gets very uptight about any references to (the Judeo-Christian) God. Even if they have nothing to do w/its promulgation. But then, I was going to school in the '80s when things were still a little loose (my God, ;) we even had a prayer by the valedictorian), so I can't say what it's like now being a student.
And again, what we're talking about here is forced class time, not mere references off-time. Admin always gets upset about "promoting" religion w/class time - well, obviously not every religion.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
I suppose all the complaints from Moslems are useless, too, since they are likewise biased.
End Quote
I said nothing about "useless" - what I said was you have to take into account the viewpoint of the reporter, also that there was only one source quoted and nobody from school except the original source's son. This is very lazy journalism.
Quoting:Even more disturbing; students are to pretend that they are Muslims, wear Muslim clothing to school, stage their own Jihad via a dice game, and pick out a Muslim name (to replace their own) from a list of 30.
ANS asked some of the students what they thought about this course. All of them felt that "it was fun," while others described Islam as "a pretty culture." This included a pastor's son. Joseph Lemings, 12, said, "The Jihad was like playing a video game," even though the true violent nature of Jihad was well concealed.End Quote
If this is exactly true as reported, then it should be the biggest news story in the US today - can any sane person seriously have come up with the concept of children acting out jihad as a dice game? If the story is exact, then it shouldn't be just one person (plus her son) talking to a reporter who is obviously hearing exactly what he wants to be told. Such dreadful reporting doesn't exactly help further the cause of Christianity, or of anything else for that matter. Frankly, I found the premise hard to swallow, but the presentation of it distressingly pathetic.
Phil
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
there are a few things that bother me about the article. the one-sidedness, as phil pointed out, is especially disturbing. the author believes it's not fair to teach islam in school...but he is just as unfair by only stating the opposition's view. he didn't even bother to find out WHY the course was being taught. i could see teaching it as a way to show that not all people who practice islam twist it to serve their own sick purposes, like bin laden has. in that respect, i don't think it's a bad idea. staging the jihad as a dice game is going kinda far...gee, let's just get out the ole warhammer gear and pretend it's people in a holy war instead...this doesn't sit well with me. the tone of the article seemed very pro-christian, anti-everything else to me and i neither think that's appropriate, nor do i appreciate it. this country is about tolerance and acceptance and articles like this one only serve to alienate many people, both non-christians and christians (i'm sure there are christians out there who would agree with me on this point). the tone of the article also seems (to me) to portray christianity in a questionable light. i've always been taught that one of the fundamental practices of christianity is 'love thy neighbor' no matter what. this article seems to say (again, to me) 'love thy neighbor as long as they're christian' and i find that to be questionable at best. of course, the author may not have been aware of the tone he used, therefore the article may not accurately reflect his beliefs/opinions of this. or he may have been very aware, we don't know.
p.s. sorry if i'm kind of on a soapbox today...a good friend of mine (who knows full well that i'm not christian) keeps bombarding my inbox with christian-based forwards (many of them anti-everything else) and it's kinda bugging me. if i seem b*tchy, please don't take it personally.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
W/all due respect guys, you just don't get it. As I said, yes, it was reported on more broad channels, it is old news to most of us, and no, believe it or not, not much "mainstream" media care about it because they support such things themselves. They are always likewise guilty of "bias" - but it's hidden under a banner of "generic" news companies lacking leading names who are just supposed to present facts in all kinds of subjects. At least this source you know is "biased" because of its name, unlike the "Times" or the "Globe" which you assume are not because they don't use "Christian" or "Liberal" in their names. Yet w/their unnecessary adjectives and other semantics and convenient omissions, it's obvious that "real" reporters are not really that. There is always editorializing going on in subtle ways (sometimes blatant) in what's supposed to be a plain news story.
I agree you take this into account, but you also must take into account the reality of the sham "legitimate press" passing themselves off as fair and unbiased. That's pure BS and I know it cuz I read it (and hear it, see it, etc).
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Sorry about using a "tainted" source for the article, it was late and it was the only article I could find, but thier is some truth to whats in the article Heres another source on the subject:
http://www.snopes2.com/religion/islam.htm
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
I agree you take this into account, but you also must take into account the reality of the sham "legitimate press" passing themselves off as fair and unbiased. That's pure BS and I know it cuz I read it (and hear it, see it, etc).
End Quote
Absolutely! Whenever you read any news item these days (even the hallowed BBC), you have to look behind the precise words that are written or spoken to see what hidden agenda the writer (or more usually the editor) has.
I get the Daily Telegraph as a newspaper, and the angle they take on things is laughable at times - especially if it relates to Tony Blair or Israel... but it's 100% better than the tabloid rubbish. I read Private Eye as a counterbalance: the big difference between the Eye and as far as I can see every newspaper is that the Eye regularly prints letters from people who think they've been misrepresented - if the Eye prints a bad story about you, they'll print your letter next issue. Now that's something I think every newspaper should be forced to do.
Phil
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Sorry about using a "tainted" source for the article, it was late and it was the only article I could find, but thier is some truth to whats in the article Heres another source on the subject:
http://www.snopes2.com/religion/islam.htm
End Quote
That's such a completely different slant on the story, it hardly bears comparison... its conclusion:
Quoting:Assist Ministries is addressing the wrong issue: This controversy shouldn't be about Islam vs. Christianity or "our religion" vs. "their religion," but rather about the appropriateness of any religious teachings in public schools. Their hand-wringing over the evils of Islam, dark hints about conspiracies among politicians and profiteers to appease oil-rich Arabs, and presentation of Christianity as the one true religion miss the point. End Quote
When I was at school (in England), I was taught in brief about most of the World's religions, and ad nauseam about Christianity. It certainly increased my growing atheism.
Phil
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
W/all due respect guys, you just don't get it. As I said, yes, it was reported on more broad channels, it is old news to most of us, and no, believe it or not, not much "mainstream" media care about it because they support such things themselves. They are always likewise guilty of "bias" - but it's hidden under a banner of "generic" news companies lacking leading names who are just supposed to present facts in all kinds of subjects. At least this source you know is "biased" because of its name, unlike the "Times" or the "Globe" which you assume are not because they don't use "Christian" or "Liberal" in their names. Yet w/their unnecessary adjectives and other semantics and convenient omissions, it's obvious that "real" reporters are not really that. There is always editorializing going on in subtle ways (sometimes blatant) in what's supposed to be a plain news story.
I agree you take this into account, but you also must take into account the reality of the sham "legitimate press" passing themselves off as fair and unbiased. That's pure BS and I know it cuz I read it (and hear it, see it, etc).
End Quote
what exactly is it we 'just don't get' praytell? i agree that most news is biased to some extent, but i think in this case it seemed more so. and even though the story is older, it is new to some of the people here because of the fact that it didn't make much mainstream splash. screwball's original post asked for our thoughts on the subject and that's what all of us have been giving. the point was to get our thoughts, so please don't say that we don't get it because we do. this is not anger or anything negative and i'm not trying to start anything, so please don't take it as such.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
what exactly is it we 'just don't get' praytell? i agree that most news is biased to some extent, but i think in this case it seemed more so. and even though the story is older, it is new to some of the people here because of the fact that it didn't make much mainstream splash. screwball's original post asked for our thoughts on the subject and that's what all of us have been giving. the point was to get our thoughts, so please don't say that we don't get it because we do. this is not anger or anything negative and i'm not trying to start anything, so please don't take it as such.
End Quote
I believe what Ol Line Rebel ment was that the post are focusing more on the article and it's credibility, than the Issue at hand. which is If religon is not allowed in public schools, should they be teaching a ciriculum such as this? To a lesser extent, would they be allowed to teach christianity in the same manor?
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
I didn't bother to read the articles, sorry to say.
Just from the subject header alone, I think it's ludicrous.
I am of the opinion that any and all religions should be kept out of the public schools
in general. Period.
Nowadays, there's too much of that political correctness and that "making sure not to
violate someone else's rights...etc., etc." kinda thing, being taken to extremes by some very vocal.
However... If one religion is being taught already, then all other religions (including
christianity) should be taught as well/equally then. Why not?
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Just from the subject header alone, I think it's ludicrous.
Nowadays, there's too much of that political correctness and that "making sure not to
violate someone else's rights...etc., etc." kinda thing, being taken to extremes by some very vocal.
However... If one religion is being taught already, then all other religions (including
christianity) should be taught as well/equally then. Why not?
End Quote
I Agree.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
I didn't bother to read the articles, sorry to say.
Just from the subject header alone, I think it's ludicrous.
I am of the opinion that any and all religions should be kept out of the public schools
in general. Period.
End Quote
I agree. NO religion should be taught in school. If you want to learn about religion all I can say is ask someone or hit the library.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
to some extent, religion has to be at least referenced (but not all-out taught) in school in order to fully understand many events in history. it's difficult to understand the conflict between jews and palestinians if teachers have to gloss over the beliefs of both about it. the same is true when learning about henry viii. it's a fine line that's easy to cross once at times, but we can't totally omit religion from the classroom because it's as much a part of history as columbus. i do think that these parts of history should be taught in the upper grades of high school when students are at an age to more fully understand both the history and that they're not being taught religious beliefs. if california wanted students to understand islam for sensitivity purposes, the course should have been taught on an extracurricular, voluntary basis and offered to students older than 7th graders.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
to some extent, religion has to be at least referenced (but not all-out taught) in school in order to fully understand many events in history. ... the course should have been taught on an extracurricular, voluntary basis and offered to students older than 7th graders.
End Quote
I thought I was going to have all sorts of things to say about this subject until I read Panda's post. Now all I have to say is: AMEN!
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
I agree. NO religion should be taught in school. If you want to learn about religion all I can say is ask someone or hit the library.
End Quote
I have to disagree with this! (Sorry Alicia)
Religion affects many people around the world and it is good to understand. If children grew up with more understanding of other cultures, maybe they would fight less.
It is import though, to separate teaching and indoctrination.
Religion should be taught as a social study, not as scientific fact.
Although, like all teaching, schools need to teach facts rather than fantasy. w.r.t. the article, 'Jihad' does NOT mean 'holy war'.
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Although, like all teaching, schools need to teach facts rather than fantasy. w.r.t. the article, 'Jihad' does NOT mean 'holy war'.
End Quote
But acording to the dictionary, It does mean Holy war, and when we first bombed afgahnistan the words out of the al quieda's mouth "this is Jihad".
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=Jihad
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
But acording to the dictionary, It does mean Holy war...End Quote
Well, I guess that depends on which dictionary you read, although I don't think an American dictionary is an appropriate authority on an Arabic word - Try these...
http://www.greatbooks.org/library/religions/islam/jihad/index.shtml
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary/term.JIHAD.html
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Well, I guess that depends on which dictionary you read, although I don't think an American dictionary is an appropriate authority on an Arabic word - Try these...
http://www.greatbooks.org/library/religions/islam/jihad/index.shtml
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary/term.JIHAD.html
End Quote
The second of your links contains this:
Not only in peace but also in war Islam prohibits terrorism, kidnapping, and hijacking, when carried against civilians. Whoever commits such violations is considered a murderer in Islam, and is to be punished by the Islamic state. during wars, Islam prohibits Muslim soldiers from harming civilians, women, children, elderly, and the religious men like priests and rabies. It also prohibits cutting down trees and destroying civilian constructions.
...do you think someone ought to tell OBL?
Phil
...and on re-reading, I notice the above text says:religious men like priests and rabies.
ROFL!!!!
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
...do you think someone ought to tell OBL?
End Quote
Yeah, and all the rest of them!
Perhaps these people should read their respective holy books before claiming to speak for their God. (Exodus 20:13 appears to be frequently ignored)
Quoting:
religious men like priests and rabies.
End Quote
Priests and mad dogs eh?
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Yeah, and all the rest of them!
Perhaps these people should read their respective holy books before claiming to speak for their God. (Exodus 20:13 appears to be frequently ignored)
End Quote
"Thou shalt not kill"? Translates to "thou shalt not kill unless I (or someone of similar authority) saist thou canst"
But people have always read into holy books what they want to read, not necessarily what the author intended to be there. Even so, you can't exactly misinterpret "Thou shalt not kill", it's pretty explicit...
Phil
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
...you can't exactly misinterpret "Thou shalt not kill", it's pretty explicit...
End Quote
Aha, that's where 'Minitrue' comes in!
Realfacts become goodfacts
'Thou shalt not kill' (unambiguous and generally inconvenient) becomes 'Thou shalt not murder' (pretty much meaningless, at least in an international sense)
George wasn't too far off!
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
George wasn't too far off!
End Quote
...only 18 years too early ;-)
Having said that, it was much the same in 1984
But to be the Devil's advocate: "Thou Shalt Not Kill" doesn't actually specify humans, or even animals. If we obeyed to the letter, then we'd only be able to eat things that died of natural causes... Maybe God should have supplied some small print (sort of aspirin-sized tablets, maybe, to go with the big ones)
Phil
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Maybe God should have supplied some small print (sort of aspirin-sized tablets, maybe, to go with the big ones)
End Quote
Travel commandments? :D
"Ten handy tips for the man on the move"?
Subject: Re: Islam Taught In California Public Schools
Quoting:
Travel commandments? :D
"Ten handy tips for the man on the move"?
End Quote
I was thinking more along the lines of:
"Thou shalt not kill"
Subsection 1: except to protect thine own life or the life of thy family
"Thou shalt not commit adultery"
Subsection 1: unless thou art pissed and she's really gagging for it
...you could have hours of fun!!
Phil