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Subject: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
It was a period before the 70's , and it had a Profound impact on Christianity in General.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
I don't want to get into a prolonged religious controversy on what's basically a music site, but the short answer is: if you actually read the documents of Vatican II, you'd find very few of the kind of changes usually attributed to that council mentioned anywhere. Where did they come from, then? Something called the "Spirit of Vatican II". That's analogous to the "living document" Constitution, so beloved of activist liberal judges in secular politics, applied to ecclesiastical politics. What's been happening more recently is something that's been called "the reform of the reform", that's going back to the actual words of the council, rather than some ephemeral spirit. Hope you're not sorry you asked.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
I was born in 1968 and was too young to remember it. But I have spoken to my parents about it and they told me they have mixed feelings about it.My mom is 67,and my dad is 71. Both have been practicing Catholics all their lives. My mom said the old Latin Mass was mystical and beautiful. You did not really "participate" in the Mass as you do in the English, or Western Rite,that we have now. The priest did not look at, or address, the congregation,he sang and prayed while looking at the tabernacle. The hymns were all in Latin,and it seemed like the people who attended Mass dressed up more,and seemed like they "wanted" to go to Mass rather than "had" to go. The women had to wear a scarf to cover their hair. This was a symbol of respect, not to mention a symbol of their Catholic faith. The Eucharistic host was placed on the person's tongue rather than their palm. The congregation kneeled in front of a wooden or ceramic structure called a "Communion Rail" instead of walking down an aisle and standing in front of the priest to receive the host. You could not have meat on any Friday,now you just fast on the Fridays during Lent. I have attended a couple of Latin Masses, and I was very impressed. The Masses left a "warm fuzzy feeling" inside me and I walked out feeling proud to be a Catholic, and I also felt closer to God. I feel the Church should move with the times,but I also feel sad that the Church couldn't have kept some of the pre-Vatican II traditions. Many people dropped out of the Catholic Faith after the Vatican II laws came into effect. What upset a lot of people was the Council's statement that people of all creeds could be saved. I guess they felt what was the point of being a Catholic, and following all these strict rules and regulations, if you can reach heaven through any form of organized religion? Mel Gibson feels that the Vatican II changes were the worst thing that happened to the Catholic faith, and indirectly lead to the current scandals in the Church. I could ramble on this for hours! Keep up the faith. Sincerely,Steve.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
My father was brought up Catholic, but he didn't raise us in the faith. He felt Catholicism had been very destructive to him. I'm rather opened minded about Catholicism. I see the good and the bad in the church.
Vatican II changed the Liturgy from Latin to English (or whatever your language is), and said it was OK to eat meat on Fridays. What else? (no, I'm not being facetious!)
Not sure if I agree with Mel Gibson. Perhaps if the church were more closed and secretive, the scandals would not have erupted. Perhaps the crimes of the clergy would have been allowed to persist under a rigid and hypocritical patriarchy. I don't think priests violating children is a new phenomenon.
I want to see MG's "Passion." I hope I like it. I didn't like "Last Temptation," not because of its message, but because it was a pompous and boring movie. I thought the protesters outside the theater were more entertaining.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Here is a link you may find interesting Maxwell. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/v1.html That website gives a good summary of what happened during the Vatican II council meetings. In addition to the changes made in the Liturgy itself,there was changes regarding Holy Days,and of course the abstaining from meat on Fridays. The bishops also talked about the relationship between Catholics,other types of Christians,and Jews. I read somewhere once that Protestant and Easter Orthodox Ministers,and Jewish Rabbis, were allowed to observe some of these meetings, but they were not allowed to vote during the legislative decisions. I too look forward to the Gibson "Passion" movie. I feel bad that the Jewish community condemned it as an "anti-semitic" film. From what I read, Gibson portrays the trial and execution of Christ in a fairly honest, and accurate manner. I am also glad he decided on the last minute to put sub-titles on the film since the Roman characters in the film speak Latin and the Jews speak both Hebrew (among themselves) and Aramaic (when addressing the Romans). If you do not speak Latin,Hebrew,and Aramaic,how else would you understand what the characters were saying? I guess Latin is a "dead" language,nobody speaks it anymore across the whole wide world. Also,Aramaic will be "dead" in 40 years, since there are only a couple of villages in the Middle East where it is spoken,and their populations consist of people who are 60 plus years of age. Once they die off,no new generation will learn how to speak this ancient language. I heard that Christ himself, and the apostles spoke Aramaic. I too remember people protesting "The Last Temptation of Christ". But I also remember hearing rumors that Martin Scorsese himself hired people to do this, in order to make the public buy tickets,and see his film. If memory serves me right,weren't there similar rumors about "Monty Python's Life of Brian", when it first came out? Thanks for the memories! Sincerely,Steve.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Quoting:
If memory serves me right,weren't there similar rumors about "Monty Python's Life of Brian", when it first came out? Thanks for the memories! Sincerely,Steve.
End Quote
Thanks for the link, Stevie. Yes, "Life of Brian" was condemned by the Pope. He said, in essence, if you want to be a good Catholic, don't see that film. I thought "Life of Brian" was Monty Python's crowning achievment. It blasted religion for its sanctimony, authoritarianism, and rigidity. I could go on and on about "Life of Brian," but that's a discussion for the '70s board.
I saw a rabbi on TV railing against "Passion." He said the film makes the Christian Jews and Roman officials look reasonable and benign, while it makes the general Jewish population look like unkempt bloodthirsty rabble. He may have a point, but how are we to tell until we've seen the film? I do know that if one is determined to find something offensive, something offensive one shall find!
How did we get here? Oh, Gibson doesn't like the changes brought about by Vatican II. Well, I suppose that's his business. Vatican II? Sounds like one of his movies.
"Gibson, Glover, Vatican II coming this summer!"
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Whether you're a practicing Catholic or not,you have to take those "condemnations" with a grain of salt. A movie came out in 1956 called "Baby Doll". It was about a child bride in the South, and was based on a short story by Tennesse Williams. A cardinal from Chicago,Illinois said during a sermon that any Catholic who saw it would have to mention that he or she saw the film, during the sacrament of Confession. Have you seen this movie? It is very tame by today's standards. It could perhaps be considered boring,and long-winded,by some people.The Pope during the 1960's condemned "Rosemary's Baby" but five years later,gave his approval to "The Exorcist" :o Why? Because William Friedkin who directed "The Exorcist" had several Catholic priests serve as consultants on the film. During his pre-production research,he was so impressed,he almost considered converting from Judaism to Catholicism! Your remark about the name:"Vatican II" reminded me of the opening scene from "Nuns on the Run". Have you seen that movie? Eric Idle and Robbie Coltrane are British gangsters in a restaurant. The Robbie Coltrane character is Catholic but the Eric Idle character is not. Eric Idle wonders why Robbie Coltrane is not eating fish,since it is a Friday. Robbie Coltrane explains that the reformed laws of Vatican II now allow Catholics to have meat on Friday. The Eric Idle character looks puzzled and says "Vatican II,who is that,the deputy Pope?" LOL! :DThanks for the memories! Sincerely,Steve.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Quoting:
Whether you're a practicing Catholic or not,you have to take those "condemnations" with a grain of salt. A movie came out in 1956 called "Baby Doll". It was about a child bride in the South, and was based on a short story by Tennesse Williams. A cardinal from Chicago,Illinois said during a sermon that any Catholic who saw it would have to mention that he or she saw the film, during the sacrament of Confession. Have you seen this movie? It is very tame by today's standards. It could perhaps be considered boring,and long-winded,by some people.The Pope during the 1960's condemned "Rosemary's Baby" but five years later,gave his approval to "The Exorcist" :o Why? Because William Friedkin who directed "The Exorcist" had several Catholic priests serve as consultants on the film. During his pre-production research,he was so impressed,he almost considered converting from Judaism to Catholicism! Your remark about the name:"Vatican II" reminded me of the opening scene from "Nuns on the Run". Have you seen that movie? Eric Idle and Robbie Coltrane are British gangsters in a restaurant. The Robbie Coltrane character is Catholic but the Eric Idle character is not. Eric Idle wonders why Robbie Coltrane is not eating fish,since it is a Friday. Robbie Coltrane explains that the reformed laws of Vatican II now allow Catholics to have meat on Friday. The Eric Idle character looks puzzled and says "Vatican II,who is that,the deputy Pope?" LOL! :DThanks for the memories! Sincerely,Steve.
End Quote
I guess the Pope was pretty emphatic about "Life of Brian," but who knows, it may be OK today. I liked "Nuns on the Run," but to be honest I haven't been able to remember anything about it since I saw it!
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Quoting:
I saw a rabbi on TV railing against "Passion." He said the film makes the Christian Jews and Roman officials look reasonable and benign, while it makes the general Jewish population look like unkempt bloodthirsty rabble. He may have a point, but how are we to tell until we've seen the film? I do know that if one is determined to find something offensive, something offensive one shall find!End Quote
What is really amazing is that Mel Gibson and his production company are probably LOVING all the attention that revisionist rabbis are giving this movie.
The more complaints, the more people are gonna want to see the movie.
Individual Jews were part of Jesus' crucifixion, as a matter of historical fact, not just religious teaching. It was the fulfillment of prophecy from a religious viewpoint. The rabbis need to get over it.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Can't wait until "Vatican III" comes out on DVD. :P
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
I agree with you 100 percent LyricBoy. As far as Vatican III is concerned,it won't happen for quite a while. Vatican I took place in 1860,Vatican II in 1962,and if the chronological pattern continues,the next Vatican council won't happen until approximately 2060! :o Here is a website that you and Maxwell Smart may find interesting. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0345/winter.php Sincerely,Steve.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Here is another link about Mel. http://www.pressherald.com/viewpoints/mvoice/040109passion.shtml If you think Mel Gibson has controversial ideas,I heard his father was even more extreme. His father was a strict Irish Catholic from Australia, who wrote books about Catholicism. His father felt that Vatican II was a conspiracy started between the Free-Masons and the Jews to destroy the Roman Catholic Church! :o Maybe the rabbis are still thinking about the comments his father made, and taking out their anger on Mel? Sincerely,Steve.
Subject: Re: Anyone Remember Vatican II(1962-1965)
Oh yeah, I remember recently Pop Gibson said something un-PC, and was getting raked over the coals for it. Bill O'Reilly of Fox News picked up in his defense. How dare they harangue that poor old man!
Whenever anybody brings up "free masons" or "jews" in re conspiracies, the red flag goes up for me! The rabbis may consider Mel a chip off the old block. We learn our values from our families, but that doesn't make us hard wired. I still embrace many beliefs I learned from my father, but I've rejected just as many as I've reserved.